headache antimony melting just started before switching on the mould

[Motard]

Antimony is suppose to cause, at least, bad headache. But mine started before:). I am ust making first steps in bullet casting. I have 33 lb alloy 97 lead + 2/3% antimony and whonder if can fit 45-70 rifles in average 400gr bulletts at 1450 fps (no gas check) without badly leading?
I may also add myself Tin up to 5% tin and recast but as to bring up hardness to 12/13 Brn butt' I always be far from 18 Brn hardness.
I have too some pure antimony dust but after reading as much as I could it seems that melting it would be a pita. For what I could achieve
A) melting before adding much Tin is better
B) melting in no oxigen would help avoiding burning, oxidizing or wasting the powder
First quest: making a lead sheet envelope, like a charm, filled wit the right amount of Sb ( say 1-2 oz for 1kg) and droping it in the pot once lead was liquid would cause it to melt or I will be just in search of a great KABOOM?
Second: would the hassle of melting the antimony worth?
Paper but also hogs are the target

[Tatume]

Welcome to the list.

Do you mean 2/3% or two to three percent (2 - 3%). Three percent antimony and one quarter percent tin will make nice bullets for the speed range you want, and will give a hardness of about 11 BHN. This is essentially wheel weight metal. If you increase the tin to one or two percent it will be easier to cast nice bullets, and hardness will increase to about 12 BHN. If you wish harder bullets, then drop the hot bullets from your mold into a bucket of water. Wait two weeks, and the hardness will increase to about 20 BHN. Personally, I prefer the softer 12 BHN bullets, and use them in handguns and rifles.

Take care, Tom

[Motard]

Yor ar correct, Tatume.Is 2-3 %Sb content. No Sn in at the moment but Sn is easier than SB to threat. I know I can drop them in whater to harden (queque?) but the lyman 457643 I have seems casting a little on the tight side. So may be would be better for me leth them air cool and eventually re-threat after in a owen?

[44man]

Need the tin to alloy the antimony. Antimony will melt at 600° with the proper flux. Without flux it will be over 1500°. I have chunks and with the flux from Bill, The antimony man, I need to keep just the right amount and keep at 600°. Too much flux is bad. I add the tin first.

[Mal Paso]

Antimony is difficult to add. I buy 30% Superhard Alloy from Roto-metals. See the ad at the top of the page, you might find something similar locally.

2-3% antimony is fine. Add 1% tin and water drop. Big bullets hold the heat and hardness is more consistent.

[blackthorn]

Tin, added to an alloy is there to aid in getting good fill-out of the mould. While tin does render some small assistance in hardening the alloy, that assistance is quite small. Allowing the percentage of Tin to exceed the percentage of Antimony is not recommended. The highest recommended percentage combination of Antimony/Tin to be added to an alloy is 50/50 Antimony/tin. In most (if not all) bullet alloys, more than 2% Tin is excessive and is unlikely to increase either the quality of your bullets or the ease of casting.

[Motard]

So i'add a very small tin's amont and test the alloy hardness again. I cwould prefere recooking the bullets in a send time because one of the molds il on the tight size. So I do mot whant them to shrink too much

[leadman]

I use pure antimony and lead in measured amounts to make the 30% superhard like Rotometals. I use the turkey fryer to melt the antimony and add the already melted and fluxed lead to the antimony and then use flux the combination. Have had no issues alloying the 2 metals. I then pour the alloy into the Lee ingot molds as I like the half bars to add to a pot of alloy if I need to.

[Motard]

Leadman: "nomen omen" :).
What flux are you using for antimony?
I just start searcing for turkey fryer cause I don't know what is it but seems somtihg I can steal to the lady.
Ok: turkey fryer spotted is it forced vented ot only a gas pot? Is it bhutane propane or what propelled?
Never seen one here but may be I can reply with a havvy cast iron pot and a gas fire for cooking tomatoe at play air. Or charcoal and venting havvily?
seems very important to get the right flux anyway. What do you use?

[detroitcharlie]

Leadman: "nomen omen" :).
What flux are you using for antimony?
I just start searcing for turkey fryer cause I don't know what is it but seems somtihg I can steal to the lady.
Ok: turkey fryer spotted is it forced vented ot only a gas pot? Is it bhutane propane or what propelled?
Never seen one here but may be I can reply with a havvy cast iron pot and a gas fire for cooking tomatoe at play air. Or charcoal and venting havvily?
seems very important to get the right flux anyway. What do you use?

You might laugh at this, and I'll probably get scoffed at but a good flux leaves a carbon layer on top of your molten alloy. I cast outside and grab up old dry Oak leaves that have fallen out of my tree. I crumble them up and get a good couple of handfuls in my melter pot. After they stop smoldering and are blackened, I stir them in, trying to mix down any tin and antimony that is floating on top and mix it towards the bottom of the melter. I just leave a good layer of carbon from the leave on top and add more as I add additional ingots. I've used sawdust, candle wax, all that stuff. But honestly, dead leaves work just fine for me. Good luck.

[44man]

I got my flux from Bill, it is pink and will suck up water like crazy so it must be kept in a sealed jar.
Each piece of antimony only needs a light coating, too much will foam up. I don't know what it is.

[Motard]

tha antymony man is no more contactable as far as I know

[jmort]

Mr. Antimony is done for. Why screw around with something with so high a melting point that is poisonous. It will "dissolve" to 2 or 3%, the saturation point, as I recall, and then you must melt it, and most of us don't go north of 1,167 degrees. Alloys with 2% plus antimony are so readily available why even go there.

[M-Tecs]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?227273-Bill-Ferguson-quot-The-Antimony-Man-quot-Out-of-Business

[Motard]

Sorry for him, for what I have read the man was a linving minie of info. Luckly I did'nt try to cintact the family at all. Just read he was out of business

[44man]

Yes, Bill has been out of business and I don't know if he is still with us or his health.
He knew a lot about our metals for sure. I still have chunks of pure antimony from him and they are so easy to melt into lead at 600° with his flux. Just a sprinkle, like a salt shaker does it. The chunks float and get smaller and smaller until gone.
I did it the old way long ago and gave that stuff up.

[Toymaker]

I will never, ever again add antimony to an alloy mix, period.

As I understand, you're looking to push a 45-70 bullet about 1,400 fps.

No problem:
149072 149073Just for reference, those are 5-shot groups at 100 yards.

[Motard]

149273
So start casting today. It was much easier with the lyman mold than with lee. This one seems having trouble in filling either if too cold or too hot. About half production had to be discarded but the rest was apparently good enaught. Boot molds dopping over. 460. Main problem. Else with water quenqued hardeness is low: 8 brn. Lets retes in one week?

[fryboy]

yes sir retest at a later date - especially if you're water dropping , looking good amigo glad to see that you're finally building experience ( something one can not buy for love nor money ! )
as it's been stated for your 45-70 hardness isnt the end all but rather fit and then hardness related to pressure , in fact with out tin you could do well with a case full of black powder and pure lead , granted a little tin would help the fill out , and speaking of fill out , on an odd note sometimes the big boolits ( such as a 45/70 ) may do best when cast using a dipper or holding the sprue plate very very close to the spout , iron molds retain heat better than aluminum ones so increasing pace or temp may also help , have fun and be safe !

[Motard]

I really enjoied it.as for all task I have been learning from my errors. But this is part of the fun. I added about 2 % of tin to the melt. But could'nt manage meltin in the antimony dust I had no matter rising or loeering temp or fluxing with wax os saw dust. It whent completely oxidized and had to schimm it out.

[Motard]

Here is the last batch made today ( I am afraid have been caught by the bug). I wather quenqued them all and will test nex week for hardness. Apparently they are coming good in shape hope consistency an leading will be pair. The tripplett in the second pic is due to improper closure and improper filling and there are two or three others that have crisped surfice: return in the melt? I am asking thys in order to learn, not because I whant to save them
149358

[Motard]

149360

[Motard]

149361149361

[Mal Paso]

I really enjoied it.as for all task I have been learning from my errors. But this is part of the fun. I added about 2 % of tin to the melt. But could'nt manage meltin in the antimony dust I had no matter rising or loeering temp or fluxing with wax os saw dust. It whent completely oxidized and had to schimm it out.

The flux used for alloying antimony is special and used only for that purpose. Wax and sawdust won't work.

[Motard]

Yep. I have discovered it. So where can I get it? Or just if you know what is it? I know the Antimony Man doesn't sell'it aniy more?

[Motard]

I am afraid I caught the infamous zink in my last WW pot. I got this lead from a friend tireman and he enshured it was all lead. But upon melting the surface become assuming the wole colours of a raimbow with a blue-violet dominace. I stirred and fluxed with wax and sawdust and at the end I had a lot of dross (about half the pot) and dropped the rest in a muffin cacke stamp. The part in the stamp seems ok but the air exopsed face resemble a concrete: vaiolate. I am unshure if I can use it or discard

[fryboy]

blues,purples and golds are good , zinc tends to make the top of the smelt look like oatmeal ( clumpy oatmeal that is ) some one here posted a foto of some but i'm not sure exactly where or what thread it is , the dross could be a indication of such tho , somewhat depending upon your melt temp

[Motard]

From left to right: correct ww, the one I tried to "save" after skimming and fluxing more time, the Snow White "poisoned" one. In the upper of the pics the ladder: this stuh suchs, it's way difficoult to remove it. Will finde the street for 156257 in the garbage.

[Motard]

From left to right: correct ww, the one I tried to "save" after skimming and fluxing more time, the Snow White "poisoned" one. In the upper of the pics the ladder: this stuff suchs, it's way difficoult to remove it. Will find the street for149575 the garbage.

[Motard]

As for my previous post I am afraid i catch come zink in my melt. So I have dropped some muriatic acid on the Ufo-melt and had no reaction at all. Just a light discoloration (plumb grey instead of the raimbow).If there was a zinc content would'nt suppose to boil or so? How can I spot zink, woul'nt like to ruin my melter. 149628

[Wayne Smith]

If there was zinc there the acid would bubble on contact. Try it with a known zinc ww so you can see the reaction. Yes, you are right, you are hopelessly hooked!

From what I have read here up to about 2% zinc will not damage the alloy. If you have that adding a little copper will harden the alloy without making it brittle (not needed for your 45-70!) The blue and purple are the colors of close to pure lead, not a bad thing. There was a thread on that titled "Blue and Purple and Gold, Oh My!" once upon a time. It had a lot of information in it.

If you get lead (or any metal) to 'boil' you are way too hot! Carbon (sawdust, leaves, etc.) will pull out dirt and such. Wax will return tin oxide back to the melt.

[Motard]

Thankyou Wayane, I am still try to learn as much as possible and this helped me alot.
One thing I can say, not only I am hoocked but from this afternoon I am also way convinced. I brought the boolits to the range and could shot only few rounds but WOW! This thing is consistent: the upper one was a jacketed to clean the barrel. The other 3 are my boolits from a Lyman 26402643 mold, in front of 37 gr of Viht N130 on a Leverevo case. Not sized and dip lubed per recluse formula. Speed is 1361 speed. Great (for me)149663

[dondiego]

Usually you want to NOT have any copper jacketed fouling at all in your bore prior to shooting a cast bullet. The copper fouling can cause leading and accuracy issues.................seems not to have mattered too much in your case though.

[Motard]

I clean the barrel after every session with bore-snacke, ballistol and elbow-oil. Plus I shot two or three fmj at the end. Dunno if it is a good recipe burt seem working.:-( .
And yes both rifles are nearly new so this helpes. For the costs of bulletts on this side of ocean the boolits will become my first choise. Apart the fun of making them

[fryboy]

elbow oil lolz ... i think i'm low on that ;)

[Motard]

If there was zinc there the acid would bubble on contact. Try it with a known zinc ww so you can see the reaction. Yes, you are right, you are hopelessly hooked!

From what I have read here up to about 2% zinc will not damage the alloy. If you have that adding a little copper will harden the alloy without making it brittle (not needed for your 45-70!) The blue and purple are the colors of close to pure lead, not a bad thing. There was a thread on that titled "Blue and Purple and Gold, Oh My!" once upon a time. It had a lot of information in it.

If you get lead (or any metal) to 'boil' you are way too hot! Carbon (sawdust, leaves, etc.) will pull out dirt and such. Wax will return tin oxide back to the melt.

Just remelted as per your's suggestion and had a lot of schimming and fluxing. Some dross remelted, the rest, I bet a ten fiftieenn percent, is gone as crude garbage. But the rest is saved. Just a couple of hours after melting this stuff gave me a nice 14 Brn hardness. Glad I havent' discarded all
thanyou