Just Say *NO* to OREO!

[DougGuy]

Time to put those Oreo cookies back on the shelf and switch to another brand..

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/dumb%20stuff/JUST%20SAY%20NO%20TO%20OREO%20Custom_zpsnrwcforb.j pg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/dumb%20stuff/JUST%20SAY%20NO%20TO%20OREO%20Custom_zpsnrwcforb.j pg.html)

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/18259/oreos-union-busting


From Marilyn Katz:

I may have to give up one of my longest-standing indulgences: the dunking of an Oreo cookie in cold milk (whole is preferred). I don’t do this lightly, as I have been dunking those deliciously wicked rounds of chocolate and what I choose to believe is cream since I’ve been three.

Why give them up? Because this week, Irene Rosenfeld, the head of Mondolez (the food conglomerate based in Illinois that has Nabisco in its portfolio), a woman touted for breaking the glass ceiling upon becoming the head of Kraft Foods and then its spin off, announced that rather than invest $130 million in modernizing the plant in Chicago, where Oreos have been lovingly produced for the past 100 years, she will instead move the jobs to a new factory in Mexico. The result: a loss of 600 well-paying and community-sustaining jobs on Chicago’s Southwest Side.

Is giving up Oreos a foolish and futile gesture? Of course, I know that other Chicago-born companies have made similar moves. I, like many Chicagoans felt a loss when Frango Mints were no longer hand made on the top floor of Marshall Field’s—and felt worse when Marshall Field’s ceased to exist at all. I was saddened when Klaus Suchard chose to take Brach candy production from Chicago, and in so doing ended Chicago’s title as candy capital of the world. I even regretted the loss of the city’s steel mills and stockyards, despite the cleaner air that their exodus brought.

But this seems different. Perhaps it was reading the May stories of Rosenfeld’s report to shareholders in which she touted the upward trajectory of the company’s profits through cutting back on procurement and customer service and her plans to make it even more profitable by a restructuring that would realize a gain of $1.5 billion for stockholders.

It might have been reading the very next day that Rosenfeld was now being feted as the first woman to join the “20 Club,” those Illinois CEOS who are paid more than $20 million a year. Rosenfeld was paid $21 million in 2014 alone.

Or perhaps, in a city beset by financial woes, it was contemplating the impact of 600 more unemployed people, who had, only weeks ago, represented a well-paid diverse workforce of Latinos, African Americans and whites whose skills and union had earned them a sustainable salary of as much as $26 an hour.

Or perhaps, after another weekend of shootings and deaths, it was thinking about the young people who we tell that in staying in school, staying out of trouble and following the rules there is a clear path to opportunity in our city—at the moment that 600 such opportunities in the city evaporated.

Certainly Rosenfeld’s move is legal (although whether it should be is another question). But I can find no sense in which it is moral, just or defensible.

Rosenfeld and company may say that the move is justified, the reasonable actions of a company to improve their bottom line; that they owe their workers, the city and the nation nothing. But I would disagree. As Warren Buffet and a few other enlightened CEOs often point out, no American company succeeds on its own or without public benefit. Companies benefit from their hiring of workers made literate and trained by a public education system that, with all its foibles, is pervasive and accessible. Corporate trucks enjoy the benefits of publicly financed roads and bridges, maintained at the public’s expense, not theirs. Their commerce itself benefits from government agreements that ensure the rule of law and protect them in a manner that those of few other countries do. And of course the wealth of the company is due to the skill and work of the workers—who turn, in this case, the flour and sugar into the delectable treats that are now enjoyed worldwide.

There’s nothing new or even unusual about Irene Rosenfeld and the story of Nabisco and its Oreo cookies. But perhaps its very pervasiveness in our lives is just the thing to wake up the nation to the downward spiral we find ourselves in—a veritable race to the bottom, with a thin layer of the very rich, a hollowing out of the middle, and a growing underclass—relegated to selling merchandize produced for pennies on the dollar in other countries.

A friend to whom I spoke about Mondelez counseled that to mention Rosenfeld’s salary is a distraction. But it seems somehow wrong that we praise and reward a CEO for eliminating American jobs or for being paid an amount in one year that would take any worker in her plant 500 years to earn. Come to think of it, if Rosenfeld could learn to live on $2 million a year, that $19 million could be used to save 600 jobs, and the company’s bottom line would still be the same.

The same friend, who long has worked in finance said to me, in a manner most reminiscent of the famous quote from The Godfather, “It’s just business” But it’s a business where choices are made. Unlike other nations, our laws today do nothing to discourage offshoring, nor do they create any penalties when companies leave cities and towns holding the bag, left responsible for cleaning the contaminated sites and providing assistance to those left behind.

We look at cities like Detroit or Gary and say, in language that only slightly masks its racism, that their sorry financial state is of their own making, and that we are better and smarter than they. But are we? The African-American residents of those cities didn’t create the problems they face. Rather, it was the exodus of auto from Detroit (140,000 jobs lost between 1950 and 1960) that created the first and lasting economic crisis that city faced and faces. So, too it was not the population of Gary that caused its demise but the decision of steel to lower its costs, take the profits gleaned from decades of workers’ production, invest it in foreign lands and leave its workforce behind. Rather than exceptions, we’d be better off understanding them as harbingers of our future—the veritable canaries in the mine whose warnings should be heeded.

The last 20 years—from the changes in tax laws of Bill Clinton’s regime through the terrible and costly years of George W. Bush—have favored massive increases in corporate profits with American workers and taxpayers paying the bills and the price. It need not be this way. It was and is not divinely ordained. These are the decisions of humans and other choices can be made.

For me? Just as I don’t shop at Wal-Mart where guns are sold next to the cereal, I won’t be eating Oreos. A small and ineffectual gesture, perhaps, but one that will give me some satisfaction while I wait and work for a government that takes a stand.

To tell Oreo you're boycotting their cookies, join Marilyn's Change.org petition https://www.change.org/p/irene-rosenfeld-mdlz-com-by-cutting-600-jobs-at-your-100-year-old-chicago-factory-and-moving-to-mexico-you-re-absconding-with-the-assets-we-ve-created-so-we-re-giving-up-on-oreos-until-you-invest-in-the-people-who-created-the-wealth-that-you-are-now-

[Uncle Jimbo]

Funny. Maybe some of those illegal Mexicans that some people are so up tight over and hateful towards will run back to Mexico for those good paying 600 jobs. Sounds like a win win to me.
:veryconfu

[runfiverun]

$26 an hour American??????????
I been in the oil field for over 10 years, run a crew of 20 guy's, and don't make near that much.

the union must be involved.

[xacex]

So um, I have a roll around cooler full of oreo's. What am I supposed to do with them, burn them? That many packages of oreo's would kill my flock of chickens if I tossed them in their pen.

[starmac]

I hate to see any company going out if the country, especially things we put in our mouth. I don't know, but doubt that Chitown is business friendly though, tax wise, labor wise , and probably political wise.

I don't have a clue what the cost of living in Chicago is, but I bet 26 bucks an hour doesn't put anyone to living high on the hog.

[Handloader109]

53k a year is pretty good for factory work. But that's probably a line sup. Sad, same story over and over move to save a penny.

[Pipefitter]

$26 an hour was probably the maintenance supervisor, line grunts are probably $14-16 an hour. I spent 14 years in the food service industry as a grunt and then maintenance.

[garym1a2]

Typical liberal commie article. Like its last paragraph

"For me? Just as I don’t shop at Wal-Mart where guns are sold next to the cereal, I won’t be eating Oreos. A small and ineffectual gesture, perhaps, but one that will give me some satisfaction while I wait and work for a government that takes a stand."

[lavenatti]

The company I worked for for 15 years was purchased and is in the middle of shutting down its NJ manufacturing facility and moving to Mexico (Thanks to CareFusion and BD). I left at the beginning of the year, to a far better place.

I'll never eat another oreo.

[fryboy]

ummm while i admit i like the article i sadly take strong strong offense at this
"For me? Just as I don’t shop at Wal-Mart where guns are sold next to the cereal, "
lady ...( and i say that with restraint ) guns are hardly a reason to boycott walmart , much better would be the cheap chinese ( and mexican ) imports that they peddle ... or their policies concerning workers etc etc but no ma'am you had to bring guns into it ..what a shame for now any true red blooded american should now also boycott you

[Lloyd Smale]

looks like your working in the wrong place. I wondered how long it would take for someone to try to throw the union under the truck. By the way I was a union electrical lineman for 30 years. Retired 6 years ago and at that time was making 26 bucks an hour. Now they make 31 where I work for a lead lineman. I did some research and union lineman average wage in this country is 32 bucks an hour. Lineman living in right to work states average 31 dollars an hour. Id bet if you looked at the wages of non union auto workers compared to union youd see the same thing. No an oil worker sweeping floors or a lineman that's not willing to do anything but ground work isn't going to make 26 bucks an hour. But for someone that has drive and is willing to relocate to where the demand is those salarys are sure there. http://work.chron.com/oil-field-worker-salaries-1447.html
$26 an hour American??????????
I been in the oil field for over 10 years, run a crew of 20 guy's, and don't make near that much.

the union must be involved.

[DCP]

Why is this not in the PIT?

[Hickory]

When I first saw the title to this thread, I thought the main character would Obama.
A black man at church calls him oreo, "black on the outside, white on the inside."

[Electric88]

So um, I have a roll around cooler full of oreo's. What am I supposed to do with them, burn them? That many packages of oreo's would kill my flock of chickens if I tossed them in their pen.

Why do you keep them in a roll around cooler? lol

[Maximumbob54]

Gamesa Giro is already made in Mexico and tastes better than Oreo has for years now anyways. Oreo these days tastes like they are made stale before they hit the shelf. Find a Giro and try one.

[jcwit]

I buy store brand, no idea where or who makes them, ain't supposed to have cookies anyway.

[40-82 hiker]

I don't know about now, but at one time as many Oreo cookies were sold as the next three or so competitors of Oreo cookies combined. I think we can fix that! They might be good, but they are just a cookie. I used to buy a couple of bags a year, but don't even do that anymore as my wife makes really good homemade cookies of several kinds that I prefer anyway. So, I really can't boycott stupid Oreo cookies since we don't buy them. I'll just have to educate those I know who do buy them. Oh heck, I don't anyone who buys them! I'll have to ask around... How do I boycott if I can't boycott?!

[HATCH]

Typical liberal commie article. Like its last paragraph

"For me? Just as I don’t shop at Wal-Mart where guns are sold next to the cereal, I won’t be eating Oreos. A small and ineffectual gesture, perhaps, but one that will give me some satisfaction while I wait and work for a government that takes a stand."



thats is what got me.

"Marilyn Katz is a writer, consultant and long-time political activist. She is president of MK Communications, a partner in Democracy Partners and a founder and co-chair of the newly formed Chicago Women Take Action."

[Hannibal]

It is my understanding that one of the biggest reasons for the move is the TARIFF that is imposed upon sugar in the US, supposedly to protect sugar beet farmers. Yes, typical leftist propoganda.

Lets see now, which political figure has been talking about TARIFFS lately? And keep in mind, the American consumer pays the TARIFF when buying the product under the TARIFF.

[mold maker]

I'll bet if the OP had stock in the Oreo company, she'd sing an entirely different tune. I can't eat cookies, but appreciate them for the family, and I buy them at Walmart just down the isle from the guns and ammo. If it weren't for cheaper imported goods I'd have to do without.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess If I have to buy imported oreos I can sure go without. Theres thousands of other cookies made right here and NOBODY HAS TO HAVE AN OREO. I could even see your logic if you said you were buying your meat at Walmart or your clothes or something else you NEED. I think a family can get along just fine without oreos. Your logic is the logic used by people justify buying everything imported and throwing away American jobs completely. How many American jobs do you think would go down the toilet if EVERYONE bought EVERYTHING imported and bought it from Walmart!! I just hope the next job displaced because of foreign competition isn't yours or your kids.

[popper]

Wait till the Asian/USA version of the EU takes effect. Coming to your town soon. Doesn't NAFTA subsidize those 'poor' workers?

[Love Life]

This thread makes me ell oh ell.

[DougGuy]

How many American jobs do you think would go down the toilet if EVERYONE bought EVERYTHING imported and bought it from Walmart!!

This is pretty much my logic about Walmart and all their competitors. I try to not go to Walmart unless I absolutely HAVE TO. We try to buy USA made as a priority, with careful scrutiny as to actually "Made In USA" or assembled in USA from who knows where parts.

So far it is pretty do-able with one exception and it's an odd one. Walmart sells Irish Cream (International Delights) coffee creamer in the big jugs and I use it in my coffee. I had tonsil cancer and lost a huge amount of the ability to taste things, but I can get along with this stuff just fine. I tried numerous times to get Food Lion and Lowe's to get this stuff, and they can't get it from the warehouses. WHY does wallyworld have a monopoly on this item? Why is it impossible for another well established food chain to get this same stuff? This is a thorn in my side for one, and I have tried cloning it by using several "recipes" that float around on the net and the copies sucked so went back to the real deal. I am TRYING to cut wallyworld completely loose because I don't like their hiring and employee practices/policies or their below a snake's belly pay scale for their workers. I will be happy to shop at a competitor that treats their workers fairly, even if I have to pay a little more for things.

I did not intend this thread to be polarized with the writer's stance on guns. Therefore I did not put it in the PIT. It wasn't a political post. It was a post that goes along with the shopping list. JUST SAY *NO* TO OREO. However, maybe, JUST MAYBE, she will change her mind and develop the same passionate hate for ALL things Un-American, which would include her views on the second amendment. One never knows what will cause a change of heart, maybe watching a friend or neighbor robbed or worse, and her there just WISHING she had something in her hand to turn the situation around.

Also, I do NOT have any ill will against Hispanics or any other race, and I dearly love me some genuine Mexican, Guatemalan, Honduran food and will go well out of my way to find the real McCoy. I get my coffee beans directly from a grower in El Salvador, he is a good friend and him and his family are good people. Anyone who wants to become a part, to contribute, to making our country better by giving something of themselves that is unique or different or just plain cool, certainly has my approval.

I have been spending my days helping and mentoring a female welder who is striving to get her business off the ground locally. I have 45yrs in the steel trades that encompass work in shipyards, pressure vessel shops, offshore oil rigs, paper mills, refineries, chemical plants, it's been a hardcore existence that taught me a LOT of diverse skills. I want to share with her as much as she can absorb, I am 2yrs post cancer treatments, successful treatments I might add, and it's time to pass the torch. Literally. Her and her family are having a tough time right now but in a year or two I think we can swing things to where she is making a decent living on her repair and welding business. She wants to work and wants it to pay the bills.

[44man]

Look at Ford, building a huge factory in Mexico. The tax and regulations here are killing workers and when Obamacare kicks in fully, nobody will work.
I was a union worker all my life. We found they took a percentage of dues to donate to the demoncrats. A few workers made the union reduce dues by that amount and they lost protection to be hunted by the union and company over anything to get fired. Then side deals with the company. Unions are a curse as bad as the board of directors and the CEO.
With every piddling wage increase the union dues went up to take back most. The teachers union has destroyed education in this country.
One of the best non union companies was in Cleveland, low wages all year but at the end of the year they all got a bonus equal to about three years wages to me. At anytime there was a waiting line of 10,000 to get hired but someone had to die for an opening.

[44man]

I had a big, almost new GE fridge that went bad. To fix was out of sight.
I bought a Samsung to replace it, there is a label on it, "made in Mexico." Even the Japanese will not build here anymore.

[runfiverun]

Lloyd there is only one job at that posting that pays the $26+ a factory worker at oreo makes.
[and it's the only one that pays more than what I'm doing now]
re-locating is not the issue [just got home from Colorado, was in Oklahoma and texas before that]
it's oil under $40.00 a barrel that is the problem.
you can't get a job running a drill rig [which is an engineering job BTW] when it's laid down in a parking lot somewhere.
those salary's are waay off, they show per hour for their yearly total then forget we work 80-100 hrs a week not 40.
any time we slow down enough to work a normal 40hr week we lose jobs, the system is just not geared to work with a 40hr work schedule.
hell our office staff works more than that.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Talking about underhanded union tricks take a look at the 1970 GM/UAW strike. After the 3 month + strike was ended and people returned to work the union workers were shocked to find that their monthly dues were now doubled! Upon questioning this at a locals monthly meeting the workers were told this was a `temporary` dues hike to re-build the nearly empty strike fund. Of course union reps told you of a `special vote` was held to raise the dues, only nobody ever saw anything posted about a special vote. Funny thing is that the dues were still double when I retired in `03! My Granddaughters still like oreo`s when they visit me, guess I`ll have to find another cookie they`ll like as well. When I retired as an `Industrial Pipefitter/Steamfitter` a dozen years back I was making about $26 per hr plus shift premium.Robert

[opos]

Got no need for Oreos...Oreos are for sissies...this is a real man's breakfast!!

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[smokeywolf]

NAFTA cost my family at least $100,000. I have a definite aversion to any politician or CEO gutting America's middle class while they themselves suck money out of the pockets of taxpayers and stockholders at obscene rates. I think OREO's parent company should also be shopping for a CEO in Mexico who will work for 1/10 the pay this harpy is getting.

[frkelly74]

The interests of the shareholders often out weigh the interests of the people depending on the company for a living.

[Schrag4]

Was the purpose of this thread to get people to buy more Oreos? It's having that effect on me. I hate to see jobs go outside the country but on the other hand when I see a union price themselves out of a job, I cannot manage to find any sympathy whatsoever for them. And this talk about shareholder interests? I wonder how many people who talk negatively about shareholder interests actually own shares in these companies via mutual funds and they just don't realize it. Thanks, OP, I'll pick up some Oreos on my way home.

[jcwit]

I'm a 72 year old disabled Vet, living on a VA Pension. If it wasn't for WalMart and the other discounters in my area there is no way I could live like we do, import of otherwise.

You folks buy fresh vegies in the fall & winter months? They come from So. Americe.
You buy packaged Fish? Likely China or So. America.
You buy a can of sardines? Imported from someplace.
Buy a Bible? Printed in either Korea or China.
Buy a casting, like a break drum or rotor? Likely from Mexico or China.
Ever look at your shoes? Mostly from China
Check out our shorts or "T: shirts? So America.


The list is never ending.

[dtknowles]

The interests of the shareholders often out weigh the interests of the people depending on the company for a living.

Not just often, always. It is the board of directors primary mission to support and defend the interests of the shareholders. Workers interests are consider as they flow to the bottom line. Does a business man create a company to create jobs or to make money? Good pay and benefits can attract good workers and help the business make money but if the pay and benefits become excessive it can be a drag on the bottom line and may need correction. You might ask what is excessive pay or benefits? Any pay or benefit greater than required to attract and retain a stable and competent work force is excessive.

Tim

[Rick Hodges]

I don't know where they are made but I much prefer Hydrox to Oreo's anyway... :veryconfu

I think the problem is less one of unions than gov't regulation, environmental impact statements, delays, zoning problems and paying off local pol's to get the necessary permits and such. When you couple this with the highest corporate tax rate in the world.......no wonder business leaves. Where I have my issues with the unions are their steadfast support of those who do everything in their power to kill manufacturing in this country. Hell I was a member of the United Steel Workers...and they are open advocates of international socialism. Few of the rank and file feel that way...but union leadership "knows best". No thank you!
I'll eat my Hydrox just the same.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup, anymore its about impossible to completely avoid buying foreign. they've worked there way into the blood stream of this country while nobody was looking, or was it nobody cared. Id be a bald faced liar if I said everything I buy is American made. Even my chevys have foreign parts and some are even made in another country. I do make it a priority to at least try to buy American when ever I can and even if it cost a bit more.

Its sad that weve allowed them to take control of our markets and its even more sad that some here try to justify it. Everything you buy that come from another country or the profits from its sale go to another country adds another nail in the coffin of the American worker and that includes union and non union workers.

Sure would be nice if we could close down our borders to product and illegal imigrants but its far to late for that. Bottom line is most Americans don't care about anything or anyone that's 10 feet outside there front door. This is not a union vs non union problem. This is big business both domestic and foreign raping this country because they know the writings on the wall and they are going to take every penny they can while the country self destructs.

It doesn't matter if your union or non union. Your still working class in my book and the working class in this country doesn't get its fair share union or not. What we have is multi millionares and even billionairs in this country and 50 percent of the rest of us are about at poverty level. A few lucky ones like myself get a decent job that at least allows us to buy a new car or a home and that makes them angry so the do everything they can to turn us against each other. To beat down the few that have a little until were all at poverty level and they have control of all of us. Working class people at each others throat for something as silly as one working union and one not.

Just in the last few years in this country free medical and retirements have about become a thing of the past for the working class. Whats next? Are you really going to be happy when everyone goes to work for 10 bucks an hour and has to stand for enough food to feed there family.

So your mad at me because I made 30 bucks an hour working hard at a dangerous job but the president of our company who is a millionaire is OK by you. Sorry but that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. So many threads on here gravitate toward anti union. Its almost a joke how blinded they've made some. Its not your fellow middle class people that are destroying this county and I guess its going to take a full collapse before some of you see it. Sad thing is its one time I don't want to be able to tell you "I told you so
" Your grandkids are going to talk in history class (if theres still school) about the old days when there grandfather could actually buy a home to live in.
I'm a 72 year old disabled Vet, living on a VA Pension. If it wasn't for WalMart and the other discounters in my area there is no way I could live like we do, import of otherwise.

You folks buy fresh vegies in the fall & winter months? They come from So. Americe.
You buy packaged Fish? Likely China or So. America.
You buy a can of sardines? Imported from someplace.
Buy a Bible? Printed in either Korea or China.
Buy a casting, like a break drum or rotor? Likely from Mexico or China.
Ever look at your shoes? Mostly from China
Check out our shorts or "T: shirts? So America.


The list is never ending.

[jcwit]

No, I'm not mad at you at all for what you made, I too made good money for years, and live good today, thanks to the likes of WalMart. and the Discount groceries.

[merlin101]

I buy store brand, no idea where or who makes them, ain't supposed to have cookies anyway.
Ah-ha! Cookie twelve step? Me too.
Hi, my name is Merlin and I'm a cookieholic.

[xacex]

Why do you keep them in a roll around cooler? lol
Well, if I was a lard butt it would be convenient to roll over my cookies, but the real reason is I just toss something on top of it, and the kids don't think twice about something being in there. It just dads empty bbq cooler...
148137

[smokeywolf]

From what I reading here on the forum, the unions are solely responsible for companies exporting U.S. jobs. This would imply that only union jobs pay $20/hr or better.

The exportation of U.S. jobs is not about union wage scales. It's about companies wanting only to pay a depressed wage which is only found in a country with a depressed standard of living.

American companies send jobs to countries with depressed economies and a low standard of living because they don't want to pay a wage scale that goes along with a good or healthy standard of living. Why do you think nearly 100% of American jobs go to 3rd world countries instead of Japan or Germany or Italy or some other industrialized nation with a healthy standard of living?

These companies pay (buy off) our politicians to reduce or eliminate import taxes, tariffs and/or duties, so they can profit by sending jobs which in America pay a wage commensurate with our standard of living, to countries where $2.00/hr and no benefits is commensurate with the their standard of living.

This practice of sending jobs which support a standard of living that was once the envy of the world, to 3rd world countries, will eventually lower our standard of living to match theirs. But don't worry, I'm sure your descendants will enjoy living in homeless camps and raising their children on little more than beans and tortillas.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and im a straight ticket republican and always have been but some here are completely blind thinking this is only a democratic thing. Big business is in cohoots with the republicans just like the unions leaders are with the democrats if not more so. I liken it to the nra. Some claim the nra doesn't do what it should with the money its given to fight for our rights but there the only show left. Same with the unions. The republicans sure don't care about the middle class any more then the democrats do and that about leaves the unions as the only dog in the fight for the middle class. Theyre far from perfect but I know that at least some of my union dues went to help maintain a standard of living for the middle class.

Who else is fighting that fight? Who else has the power to stand up to those millionaires and billionaires? Your voice alone means nothing to them. They will laugh at the middle class when the unions are gone and theres no longer an organized fight against them. Who with any semblance of intelligence really believes that the board at GM or Ford or US steal or any other company really cares about there workforce. There a tool to make profit and that's it! They will cut your wages until they cant anymore then will have someone in some third world country do it for them while we starve.
From what I reading here on the forum, the unions are solely responsible for companies exporting U.S. jobs. This would imply that only union jobs pay $20/hr or better.

The exportation of U.S. jobs is not about union wage scales. It's about companies wanting only to pay a depressed wage which is only found in a country with a depressed standard of living.

American companies send jobs to countries with depressed economies and a low standard of living because they don't want to pay a wage scale that goes along with a good or healthy standard of living. Why do you think nearly 100% of American jobs go to 3rd world countries instead of Japan or Germany or Italy or some other industrialized nation with a healthy standard of living?

These companies pay (buy off) our politicians to reduce or eliminate import taxes, tariffs and/or duties, so they can profit by sending jobs which in America pay a wage commensurate with our standard of living, to countries where $2.00/hr and no benefits is commensurate with the their standard of living.

This practice of sending jobs which support a standard of living that was once the envy of the world, to 3rd world countries, will eventually lower our standard of living to match theirs. But don't worry, I'm sure your descendants will enjoy living in homeless camps and raising their children on little more than beans and tortillas.

[marlin39a]

Oreo cookies are on sale here for $2.49! I'm not buying! (Type 2 diabetic anyway)

[Hannibal]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with some of what you have said.

The United States became THE world economic superpower by harvesting raw resources, manufacturing those resources into durable goods, and exporting some but consuming most of those goods. Unfortunately, harvesting raw resources is a messy business, often creating dangerous by-products and nearly always creating an unsightly harvest zone. Manufacturing processes often times created more dangerous by-products which were not always taken care of in a responsible manner. Sometimes due to ignorance, and sometimes due to greed and convenience. Over time, lessons have been learned from some of the mistakes, and better methods have been developed.

A large portion of the American people look at the impact the harvesting and manufacturing processes have upon the environment and demand these activities cease. The "Not in MY backyard!" mindset. They elected officials who pledged to do something. And by and large they have. By creating a country where the cost and bureaucracy are so excessive, business time and time again reach the conclusion that in order to remain competitive and make a profit, for the reason for a business to exist and operate is to earn a profit, they find their best option is to relocate their facilities outside of the United States.

This upsets many persons, and they want a 'penalty' or 'TARIFF' imposed upon the goods being brought in from foreign nations. And the government is all to eager to comply. People asking to pay more for goods and the extra costs going to the government's coffers? It's a politician's dream.

So. The jobs leave the United States. The prices go up. And people complain.

NICE.

Yes, this is an over-simplification and is not all - inclusive. But by and large, THIS is where the decent paying jobs that did not require 4-6 years of post-secondary education to qualify for have gone.

[Lloyd Smale]

to bad we cant find a way to make a law that if a company relocates any part of a company outside of this country the entire board of directors has to go to that country with it for at least 10 years or go to jail!!!!

[DougGuy]

It comes down to one basic ugly emotion, greed. The outfits that have a lot of money already are the hungriest and the most ruthless when it comes to making more money. It isn't even in their mentality to give a flying *F* about anything less. <<-- THIS is a cancer worse than any demican utopia any of our political hopefuls could ever dream up. We have been and still are evolving into a Soylent Green economy. When the SHTF in the major food chains, you will see calamity like no other before it. Maybe not in our generation but the next one who knows.

The American people have no voice anymore against corporate dollars. Our entire government has it's ear tuned to corporate dollars and could care less about the citizens of this country. This is why no sensible legislation to preserve our jobs and economy will ever be passed. Corporate dollars will head it off at the pass..

[Hannibal]

I agree that ANY disruption, real or perceived, brings out a form of human behavior that is some of the worst to behold. Remember the runs on the gas stations and price gouging on 9/11? And how about the scenes and stories from New Orleans after Katrina?

But I digress. Sorry for the thread drift.

[jonp]

I guess its ok if your into class warfare and taking those evil rich peoples money as punishment for being more succesful than you are

[dtknowles]

............... Who with any semblance of intelligence really believes that the board at GM or Ford or US steal or any other company really cares about there workforce. There a tool to make profit and that's it! They will cut your wages until they cant anymore then will have someone in some third world country do it for them while we starve.

You are half right. When I worked for Lockheed Martin, we would go to middle schools and high schools and do outreach for Science Technology, Engineering and Math. Why, to build the next generation workforce. Why would you ask your Engineers to go out to schools during working hours and talk to kids? The company's most valuable resource was our engineering talent. The more home grown engineers they could make the better. I did it but a little reluctantly. I was encouraging the workforce that would make it easier for the company to replace me with a younger lower paid engineer. I did it for the kids and the country because those kids will be the ones who make this country the best in the world.

A company only cares about its workforce as it flows to the bottom line. Companies care about its workers but only as much as they help the company make more money. If it takes two weeks to train a high school kid to replace you then don't expect the company to care one bit for you. If it will take 5 years to train your replacement and they will have to put a lot of effort in recruiting that replacement and paying for relocation and they won't know if the replacement will work out or be a bust for at least 6 months, so they have to recruit 2 or three potential replacements, yeah, they will care.

Companies move production overseas for lots of reasons and only some are due to labor costs. Labor costs are not going to go up. Wages are not going to go up. There are not enough jobs for everyone in the U.S. who wants one and it is even worse in the third world.

If you make cardboard boxes and U.S. produced cardboard costs 10% more than Canadian cardboard, why would you buy U.S. cardboard? Labor is a commodity, it is a completive market and the sale goes to the lowest priced supplier. You can compete on cost or quality or a combination of the two. Are you sure that the quality of U.S. labor is enough superior to the quality of foreign labor that it is worth the higher price.

Tim

[Lefty Red]

Damn, I like OREOs too. :)

Just waiting to see what the union is gong to give up to the governor. Teamsters gave up a four year raise freeze for IDOT! ACSME will give up our back pay and everything else. Just wish they would tell us to strike!

Jerry

[dtknowles]

to bad we cant find a way to make a law that if a company relocates any part of a company outside of this country the entire board of directors has to go to that country with it for at least 10 years or go to jail!!!!

And this is right, how? What if the board relocates parts of the company to different countries or the board member is on the board of multiple companies that relocate to different countries? What if the board member is not a U.S. citizen? What has 10 years got to do with anything? With that law maybe the board would just move the company headquarters to the Bermuda and make it a foreign owned company? Actually it is a bit of a surprise that more companies have not moved their headquarters overseas. U.S. taxes and regulation would seem to drive companies away. I guess with could do like Venezuela and nationalize a bunch of the big companies in the U.S. then they could not leave and the government could try to run them at a profit with U.S. labor? Yeah, more laws restricting companies are the answer.

Tim

[dtknowles]

It comes down to one basic ugly emotion, greed. The outfits that have a lot of money already are the hungriest and the most ruthless when it comes to making more money. It isn't even in their mentality to give a flying *F* about anything less. <<-- THIS is a cancer worse than any demican utopia any of our political hopefuls could ever dream up. We have been and still are evolving into a Soylent Green economy. When the SHTF in the major food chains, you will see calamity like no other before it. Maybe not in our generation but the next one who knows.

The American people have no voice anymore against corporate dollars. Our entire government has it's ear tuned to corporate dollars and could care less about the citizens of this country. This is why no sensible legislation to preserve our jobs and economy will ever be passed. Corporate dollars will head it off at the pass..

There is a difference between profit motive and greed. The incentive for a business is to make profits and grow to make even more profit, develop new products to make even more profit, it is a virtuous cycle. That a growing business might employ overseas workers is not an evil thing. Those overseas workers get a job, can support a family, buy products, (maybe even products made in the U.S.) another virtuous cycle.

Any regulation who's sole intent is to preserve American jobs is just a socialist experiment and will probably cause the loss of as many U.S. jobs as it saves. The way to save or create U.S. jobs is to make it more profitable to use U.S. labor by increasing the value of U.S. labor. Increase the skills and ability of the U.S. workers and make them more productive than overseas workers. Artificially increasing the wages of U.S. workers only makes these workers less competitive on the world market leading to job losses. Putting tariffs on Imported products increase the cost of these products (inflation) reducing the value of U.S. wages. Tariffs if done right could stop the job losses but if they are broadly applied will hurt economic growth in the U.S. and world wide leading to job losses.

Understand that U.S. companies have to compete with foreign owned companies, if they don't build a factory in China someone in China will build a factory to make the same product in China and sell that product to the world. U.S. companies don't just sell their product in the U.S. Do you think the Pepsi sold in Russia is made in the U.S.

Tim

[Charley]

"Companies benefit from their hiring of workers made literate and trained by a public education system that, with all its foibles, is pervasive and accessible. Corporate trucks enjoy the benefits of publicly financed roads and bridges, maintained at the public’s expense, not theirs."

You didn't build that! Sound familiar? Profit motive is what drives business, and labor costs are only one factor in that equation. Taxes are the more likely motive for the move.

[smokeywolf]

to bad we cant find a way to make a law that if a company relocates any part of a company outside of this country the entire board of directors has to go to that country with it for at least 10 years or go to jail!!!!

Lloyd, if you let the gov't take away somebody's right to decide where they wish to live, you'll also be giving the gov't the power to decide a lot of other things for a lot of other people; including yourself.

You have to take away big business's right to bribe politicians to remove or lower import duties, taxes and tariffs for U.S. companies and corporations who send manufacturing out of the U.S. Then, you have to make sure that foreign companies pay enough import taxes so that they can't grossly undercut American business.

I don't have all the answers, but somehow we need to get back to the way industry and commerce was in the '50s and 60's, when America produced much, if not most of what Americans bought and there were still jobs that paid a wage that allowed one parent to stay home and raise the children while the other not only paid the bills, but actually had something left at the end of each month put in a savings acct.

When you keep putting Americans out of work, Americans lose their ability to consume. When you protect America's middle class you are also protecting America's consumer base and therefore America's economy. At some point corporate America is going to have to return to the mindset that built this country and that is not sacrificing the ability of America's consumer market to consume for the sake of quarterly or even annual profits. American business used to look not just to the end of the fiscal quarter or the end of the fiscal year, but a decade or decades into the future.
Now all these ridiculously overpaid CEOs look at is making it appear as though they are earning at least some of their ridiculously inflated bonuses.

[lefty o]

i dont need oreo's anyways. i wont support a company that kills jobs in this country just to bolster the ceo/boards pockets.

[southpaw]

If she didn't do it they would have found someone else who would be willing to do it.

Jerry Jr.

[JWT]

Hannibal is correct. The sugar prices in the US are much higher than virtually anywhere else. I read an article a few weeks ago on the Oreo move that pointed this out. The article also pointed out that Chicago has lost 1/3 of their confectionary businesses already due to this same issue. Paying double for the raw materials is far harder on a company than the payroll costs.

[jonp]

From what I reading here on the forum, the unions are solely responsible for companies exporting U.S. jobs. This would imply that only union jobs pay $20/hr or better.

The exportation of U.S. jobs is not about union wage scales. It's about companies wanting only to pay a depressed wage which is only found in a country with a depressed standard of living.

American companies send jobs to countries with depressed economies and a low standard of living because they don't want to pay a wage scale that goes along with a good or healthy standard of living. Why do you think nearly 100% of American jobs go to 3rd world countries instead of Japan or Germany or Italy or some other industrialized nation with a healthy standard of living?

These companies pay (buy off) our politicians to reduce or eliminate import taxes, tariffs and/or duties, so they can profit by sending jobs which in America pay a wage commensurate with our standard of living, to countries where $2.00/hr and no benefits is commensurate with the their standard of living.

This practice of sending jobs which support a standard of living that was once the envy of the world, to 3rd world countries, will eventually lower our standard of living to match theirs. But don't worry, I'm sure your descendants will enjoy living in homeless camps and raising their children on little more than beans and tortillas.


i dont need oreo's anyways. i wont support a company that kills jobs in this country just to bolster the ceo/boards pockets.
Yeah, id hate to see my 401k increase because of their higher profit

[lefty o]

Yeah, id hate to see my 401k increase because of their higher profit

if it was your job being cut, you wouldnt be so worried about your 401k!

[dtknowles]

.........I don't have all the answers, but somehow we need to get back to the way industry and commerce was in the '50s and 60's, when America produced much, if not most of what Americans bought and there were still jobs that paid a wage that allowed one parent to stay home and raise the children while the other not only paid the bills, but actually had something left at the end of each month put in a savings acct..........

The 50's and 60's were an exceptional case that will not be repeated. The rest of the World had just suffered great infrastructure damages and was trying to rebuild and the U.S. had built a great deal of infrastructure to support war production so the U.S. was booming making stuff for the rest of the world and paying us with money we either gave them or loaned them. We helped them rebuild and then we had to compete with them in the end of the 20th century. Now in the start of the 21st century we have to compete with the emerging third world economies.

Tim

[JWFilips]

Hitler loved his countries "Unions": Says a lot :
I'm A union buster ...I am An American ! as our fore father's wanted it
Socialism is deeply seeded in this country! It is a Cancer! You Buy in to it ...a socialist you may be!
No one tells me when to work and no one tells me not to work! I work when I want and no "union" dictates that!!!

[Hannibal]

The 50's and 60's were an exceptional case that will not be repeated. The rest of the World had just suffered great infrastructure damages and was trying to rebuild and the U.S. had built a great deal of infrastructure to support war production so the U.S. was booming making stuff for the rest of the world and paying us with money we either gave them or loaned them. We helped them rebuild and then we had to compete with them in the end of the 20th century. Now in the start of the 21st century we have to compete with the emerging third world economies.

Tim

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. Yes, the American worker has to compete in the global economy. American workers are also THE most productive. This is not opinion, it is fact. IF regulations were favorable, no, scratch that. If regulations were such that the United States could present an even playing field in terms of regulations and materials costs, business would return.

But don't expect me to hold my breath waiting for it . . . .

[MaryB]

When I was working at the cabinet shop a few wanted to go union and had a union rep come and give talks, stalked us in the parking lot etc. We flat out told them to go pound sand, I was doubling my monthly income via production bonuses every month!


Look at Ford, building a huge factory in Mexico. The tax and regulations here are killing workers and when Obamacare kicks in fully, nobody will work.
I was a union worker all my life. We found they took a percentage of dues to donate to the demoncrats. A few workers made the union reduce dues by that amount and they lost protection to be hunted by the union and company over anything to get fired. Then side deals with the company. Unions are a curse as bad as the board of directors and the CEO.
With every piddling wage increase the union dues went up to take back most. The teachers union has destroyed education in this country.
One of the best non union companies was in Cleveland, low wages all year but at the end of the year they all got a bonus equal to about three years wages to me. At anytime there was a waiting line of 10,000 to get hired but someone had to die for an opening.

[MaryB]

You wouldn't believe the list of rules I am supposed to comply with for my laser engraver/cutter. Special glasses even though the lid is a laser blocker, High voltage gloves if I work in the power supply area(my laser is a gas tube design), and a scrubber on the exhaust to get rid of whatever fumes might come off what I engrave... all this for a business I run about 15 hours a week as a hobby to keep my brain busy...



I am going to have to respectfully disagree with some of what you have said.

The United States became THE world economic superpower by harvesting raw resources, manufacturing those resources into durable goods, and exporting some but consuming most of those goods. Unfortunately, harvesting raw resources is a messy business, often creating dangerous by-products and nearly always creating an unsightly harvest zone. Manufacturing processes often times created more dangerous by-products which were not always taken care of in a responsible manner. Sometimes due to ignorance, and sometimes due to greed and convenience. Over time, lessons have been learned from some of the mistakes, and better methods have been developed.

A large portion of the American people look at the impact the harvesting and manufacturing processes have upon the environment and demand these activities cease. The "Not in MY backyard!" mindset. They elected officials who pledged to do something. And by and large they have. By creating a country where the cost and bureaucracy are so excessive, business time and time again reach the conclusion that in order to remain competitive and make a profit, for the reason for a business to exist and operate is to earn a profit, they find their best option is to relocate their facilities outside of the United States.

This upsets many persons, and they want a 'penalty' or 'TARIFF' imposed upon the goods being brought in from foreign nations. And the government is all to eager to comply. People asking to pay more for goods and the extra costs going to the government's coffers? It's a politician's dream.

So. The jobs leave the United States. The prices go up. And people complain.

NICE.

Yes, this is an over-simplification and is not all - inclusive. But by and large, THIS is where the decent paying jobs that did not require 4-6 years of post-secondary education to qualify for have gone.

[jonp]

if it was your job being cut, you wouldnt be so worried about your 401k!

I already lost one job because the union wanted higher money. The company told them times were hard and wanted some concessions. Union bosses showed up and convinced everyone to stand firm even after the company told them they would have to shut the plant. Union boss said it was a bluff. It wasn't. 300 people out of work and last time I was home the place the 100yr old plant stood is a parking lot. Unions are great, for the bosses

[starmac]

Someone mentioned that the american worker was the most productive in the world, does anyone have any proof of that.
We can all harp on the fact that companies are moving out of the country, think about it for a second or two, we the public told them too. American companies have competed with forein ones for years, and watched us by forein junk, just because it was cheaper, maybe not for the long haul, but cheaper today. We have stomped and throwed hissy fits anytime someone mentioned expanding, or drilling a hole in the ground or cutting a tree down, caught a fish, plowed up a rats nest for christs sake. Why any company at all that could afford to move doesn't is beyond me. I am glad they don't, but we have give them their blessing, and like everything else, oreo will never lose a dime over the move, it will be business as usual, and the majority of customers never knew where they were made or cared anyway.

[SteveS]

Someone mentioned that the american worker was the most productive in the world, does anyone have any proof of that.

I think it might be all in how you look at it.

Which Country Has the Most Productive Workers
Are Americans the world's most productive employees? Not even close, according to recent research.

http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/which-country-has-the-most-productive-workers.html

[Lloyd Smale]

now you hit on the real problem with unions these days. they don't have the balls to put it all on the line like they did 40 years ago. They try to be to politicaly correct.
Damn, I like OREOs too. :)

Just waiting to see what the union is gong to give up to the governor. Teamsters gave up a four year raise freeze for IDOT! ACSME will give up our back pay and everything else. Just wish they would tell us to strike!

Jerry

[Lloyd Smale]

So you think its exceptable for companys that have made there fortunes and built there companys off of money they made selling things to americans that were made by americans to pack up and move so they can make a few more dollars a year and leave in there wake thousands of unemployed people and what was once nice neighborhoods turned to slums. Look at Detroit for example. You are the typical guy that says they have a right to do what they want (and they obviously do) right up to the point its your job or your kids job that goes oversees. Then there evil sobs. Like I said earlier most americans wont step out on the front porch to help anyone. If it doesn't concern them then they just don't care. If they can save 5 bucks this month at Walmart they could care less if 50 people in the neighbor town just lost there job because Walmart sold what they made 50 cents cheaper because they bought it from china. Its this self centered disease that is whats REALLY going to kill America. So stand up for those ceos that lower wages, that threaten workers to intimidate them, that move there businesses to mexico. They surely are within the law doing it. Well you can applaud them, me ill pray America wakes up and passes laws that stop it.
And this is right, how? What if the board relocates parts of the company to different countries or the board member is on the board of multiple companies that relocate to different countries? What if the board member is not a U.S. citizen? What has 10 years got to do with anything? With that law maybe the board would just move the company headquarters to the Bermuda and make it a foreign owned company? Actually it is a bit of a surprise that more companies have not moved their headquarters overseas. U.S. taxes and regulation would seem to drive companies away. I guess with could do like Venezuela and nationalize a bunch of the big companies in the U.S. then they could not leave and the government could try to run them at a profit with U.S. labor? Yeah, more laws restricting companies are the answer.

Tim

[Newboy]

I won't get bit twice!

I remember in the 70's when the Yankee union guys were screaming for everyone to buy American cars so they could keep their jobs.

I bought into that.

Then, when the price of oil went up in 80's, those same union jerks who wanted us to "buy American", decided they would rather buy cheap foreign oil. So we let an ENTIRE INDUSTRY DIE. THOUSANDS OF OIL COMPANIES WENT BROKE, and MILLIONS OF US LOST OUR JOBS, because YOU Yankees wanted cheap foreign oil.

No "buy American" here any more!

[dtknowles]

I agree with some of what you say, but not all. Yes, the American worker has to compete in the global economy. American workers are also THE most productive. This is not opinion, it is fact. IF regulations were favorable, no, scratch that. If regulations were such that the United States could present an even playing field in terms of regulations and materials costs, business would return.

But don't expect me to hold my breath waiting for it . . . .

Yes, a more favorable tax and regulatory environment would retain more U.S. businesses (and even repatriate some of the ones that left) but it would not bring back the 50's and 60's type U.S. manufacturing domination. Yes, do not hold your breath, to level the playing field we would have to let U.S. manufacturers setup sweat shops and dump their waste in peoples back yards, and only pay workers 8 hours pay for 12 hours work.

Tim

[dtknowles]

So you think its exceptable for companys that have made there fortunes and built there companys off of money they made selling things to americans that were made by americans to pack up and move so they can make a few more dollars a year and leave in there wake thousands of unemployed people and what was once nice neighborhoods turned to slums. Look at Detroit for example. You are the typical guy that says they have a right to do what they want (and they obviously do) right up to the point its your job or your kids job that goes oversees. Then there evil sobs. Like I said earlier most americans wont step out on the front porch to help anyone. If it doesn't concern them then they just don't care. If they can save 5 bucks this month at Walmart they could care less if 50 people in the neighbor town just lost there job because Walmart sold what they made 50 cents cheaper because they bought it from china. Its this self centered disease that is whats REALLY going to kill America. So stand up for those ceos that lower wages, that threaten workers to intimidate them, that move there businesses to mexico. They surely are within the law doing it. Well you can applaud them, me ill pray America wakes up and passes laws that stop it.

You are wrong about me. You said "You are the typical guy that says they have a right to do what they want (and they obviously do) right up to the point its your job or your kids job that goes oversees." this is not true, why would you say this about me, it is an unfounded personal attack.

Those companies have the right and their is actually no way to stop them, even if the Government Nationalized the companies do you think that the Government should be able to force the management and technical leadership to stay with the Nationalized Company. If the government took over the company I am working for, I would expect it to fail in less than a year and I would be getting out before it failed. I choose my employers based on the leadership I report to. I took my current job because the company owner and president asked me personally. Once I had a new manager as my new leader, the guy was a not capable or ethical so I exposed him publicly to the Vice President and his staff. The manager and I were both reassigned. The manager resigned and I was eventually promoted to Manager for a different project.

Make your own path, let companies make their own path. Provide the proper incentives and companies will move back to the U.S. or stay here if they are already here. Provide the wrong incentives and they will leave even if you force them to stay.

Why attack me, I am only relating the facts.

Tim

[Hannibal]

Yes, a more favorable tax and regulatory environment would retain more U.S. businesses (and even repatriate some of the ones that left) but it would not bring back the 50's and 60's type U.S. manufacturing domination. Yes, do not hold your breath, to level the playing field we would have to let U.S. manufacturers setup sweat shops and dump their waste in peoples back yards, and only pay workers 8 hours pay for 12 hours work.

Tim

This is emotional rhetoric. It is not necessary to toss out all environmental and labor regulations to achieve an environment attractive to business. The countries allowing business practices you speak of are also operating under Socialist economic practices and Communist or Dictator forms of government. Their very nature poses a risk to businesses operating within their borders. Risk businesses would prefer not to be exposed to given a viable option.

[dtknowles]

So you think its exceptable for companys that have made there fortunes and built there companys off of money they made selling things to americans that were made by americans to pack up and move so they can make a few more dollars a year...........

Companies do not pack up and move so they can make a few more dollars a year. They leave so that they can make a profit, instead showing a loss. When you can see that your competition will have an advantage, the writing is on the wall, you have to make a change to overcome the competitions advantage or you will lose market share and profits will decline, if you do not take action then you will start showing a loss. A business can only sustain losses for a short period of time and only then if they have a plan to return to profitability. There is also a couple of other offshoring scenarios, one it the potential for huge profits by setting up overseas production for the overseas markets, or the stupid management doing some offshoring because it is trendy in the industry, if your business is stagnating, or losing money and your competition is offshoring, you can do some offshoring as window dressing for the board and shareholders.


Don't misunderstand, I think some companies move jobs overseas for bad reasons and did not try to keep the jobs in the U.S. I am not defending bad corporate management. Has the management of some U.S. companies failed their U.S. workers, yes. Did this same management receive huge salaries and bonuses, yes. Is that right, no. What can be done about it, better training for the leadership of the U.S. Corporations. They will always get huge salaries and bonuses but with proper training they could do a good enough job to deserve the money. Good corporate leadership can create more U.S. jobs than anything else. Who creates jobs, business owners (unless you are a socialist then you think the Government creates jobs, we already have too much of that.)

Tim

[dtknowles]

This is emotional rhetoric. It is not necessary to toss out all environmental and labor regulations to achieve an environment attractive to business. The countries allowing business practices you speak of are also operating under Socialist economic practices and Communist or Dictator forms of government. Their very nature poses a risk to businesses operating within their borders. Risk businesses would prefer not to be exposed to given a viable option.

It is not emotional rhetoric it is the facts, to level the playing field you would have to do the things I said. I do not advocate doing those things, we will have to offset some of the disadvantages of reasonable U.S. regulation with better education and productivity so that U.S. companies can compete. Because we will be operating at a disadvantage we will never dominate the manufacturing sector like we did in the 50's and 60's but we can still be successful in carefully selected sectors just like Germany is successful in some sectors.

Tim

[Hannibal]

It is not emotional rhetoric it is the facts, to level the playing field you would have to do the things I said. I do not advocate doing those things, we will have to offset some of the disadvantages of reasonable U.S. regulation with better education and productivity so that U.S. companies can compete. Because we will be operating at a disadvantage we will never dominate the manufacturing sector like we did in the 50's and 60's but we can still be successful in carefully selected sectors just like Germany is successful in some sectors.

Tim

Actually, the biggest reason we will never see a return to the way things were in the 50s and 60s is because advancement in technologies and automation have caused those jobs to disappear, never to return anywhere.
We are, however, sitting on an enormous energy reserve and current policy is to export none of it. Energy sector jobs are high paying jobs comparatively and this is one area where the economic engine could get a much needed jump start.

[Char-Gar]

Reading this thread flung a craving on me for an Oreo, so I went to the kitchen and got a couple.

[smokeywolf]

Tim,
Is there a lot of offshoring or exportation of U.S. jobs in the industry in which you work? Defense/aerospace, if I understand correctly. I'm guessing not a lot of that work is shipped to other countries.

When your livelihood has been hindered by industry and government in cahoots to abandon the U.S. worker in favor of paying wages typical to economies where poverty is the norm, you see things from a closer, more realistic perspective.

[dtknowles]

Tim,
Is there a lot of offshoring or exportation of U.S. jobs in the industry inwhich you work? Defense/aerospace, if I understand correctly. I'm guessing nota lot of that work is shipped to other countries.

When your livelihood has been hindered by industry and government in cahoots toabandon the U.S. worker in favor of paying wages typical to economies wherepoverty is the norm, you see things from a closer, more realisticperspective.

There is more offshoring and exportation of U.S. Aerospace jobs than you might think. Boeing imports major portions of their Airliners from Japan and has 737 production lines in China. F-16's are/were built in Turkey. There will be production lines for F-35's in Australia and Europe. NASA just contracted with European Space Agency for the Propulsion system for the Orion Service module. Orbital/ATK gets the first stage and engines for their Antares rocket from the Ukraine and Russia. United Launch Alliance uses Russian engines on their Atlas rocket. NASA depends on the Russiansto launch crews to the International Space Station. They don't do these things because we can't do them in the U.S. they do this because it is cheaper to develop/buy/build these products from other countries. It is cheaper either because the foreign government subsides these products or because the overseas workers work for lower wages. These are all things that would have been unheard of just a few decades ago.

Markets and companies are global now and the government does not mandate made in the U.S.A. even for military and space programs.
There used to be three U.S. producers of cryogenic rocket engines, Rocketdyne, Aerojet, and Pratt and Whitney. Now the only producer is one company Aerojet/Rocketdyne (which is the result of the merger of all three companies)and then there is Space X who make their own engines but do not sell them to anyone.

Tim

[BDJ]

Hydrox is the original cream filled sandwich cookie, and as of today they are back.

http://www.grubstreet.com/2015/09/hydrox-return-september.html

[smokeywolf]

You're right Tim, I did not know there was quite that much aerospace work being sent elsewhere.

Throughout the '60's and much of the '70s I remember hearing the engines being tested up at the Rocketdyne Santa Susana Facility and remember when Boeing acquired Rocketdyne.

Knew there was a lot of work sent to other countries by Boeing; didn't know China was one of those.

[dtknowles]

You're right Tim, I did not know there was quite that much aerospace work being sent elsewhere.

Throughout the '60's and much of the '70s I remember hearing the engines being tested up at the Rocketdyne Santa Susana Facility and remember when Boeing acquired Rocketdyne.

Knew there was a lot of work sent to other countries by Boeing; didn't know China was one of those.

I may have jumped the gun on the China assembly line, looks like the deal is not final.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-boeing-eyes-great-leap-forward-in-china-412570/

The parties have apparently been in talks for a number of years, but it appears that a decision on whether to set up a completions and delivery centre for the 737 narrowbody in China could, finally, be close, according to sources.

[458mag]

I guess its ok if your into class warfare and taking those evil rich peoples money as punishment for being more succesful than you are
Obviously some here think the goobernent is the answer to all our problems and if they could only make laws of restriction conserning where a company our how a company operates all of our ills would be cured because after all they have such a GREAT track record of doing just that. My grand children and probably thiers will be paying on the debt this administration has burdened us all with. And yes unions have a great effect on the goobernent you get.

[Hannibal]

I believe Unions made significant contributions in our past. 40 hour work weeks, vacations, health care benefits, and equal employment opportunities are to name a few.

However, it is important to remember that the strength of a Labor Union lies solely in it's membership. Given the obvious predominate attitude of the citizenry of this nation today, I would NOT look for meaningful advancements in the form of Labor Unions in the near future. Just more of the racial and economic divide rhetoric from the last 20 years or so.

Stick a fork in it. Labor Unions are done.

[Lloyd Smale]

Companies do not pack up and move so they can make a few more dollars a year. They leave so that they can make a profit, instead showing a loss

if you believe that I have a bridge for you. Profit for the stock holders is why its done. Many companys that aren't in the black go overseas. Polaris just moved there profitable atv division to mexico. Layed off all the American workers that brought that company from a very small producer of snowmobiles that didn't even make there own motors to one of the biggest snowmobile and atv producers in the world. What thanks did they get? A pink slip. I had a buddy that worked for them for 16 years that lost his job. No unions to blame either. This sure as heck isn't the only example of this. GREED is what sends these companys overseas and nothing else.

Kind of odd that American car manufactures in the 50s and 60s pulled down all kinds of profit and made everything right here and yes had union workers. Now they move a lot of there manufacturing and purchasing overseas and still barely hold on and use the unions for a scapegoat for there shady business practices. Its nothing but poor and greedy business practices. But they sure have some fooled.

[Lloyd Smale]

You are no doubt right. Unions are dying a slow death. Part of the blame was there upper management greed just like big business. I think they saw the way big business operated and figured they wanted there piece of the pie too. Part of the blame for them dying lies in the gullibility of the average American person. Most non union workers made less and the envy thing kicked in and then those shady exects that wanted to put a smokescreen up to rape this country found ways to convince people that it wasn't them ripping them off while they took home 6 figure incomes and 6 figure bonuses. It was the union factory worker making 50k with half the benefits he had 20 years ago. Those non union crybabies wont admit to themselves that without those unions they too wouldn't be getting near the wage and have even close to as good work conditions as they have.

Ill tell you a big "I TOLD YOU SO" in 20 years if im still around. When there is no middle class left in this country. Either you will work to eke out a existence lifestyle or starve.. You wont be buying a home or a new car or a tv. Youll be buying a loaf of bread and some peanut butter and the rich and the government controlled by the rich will have total control of every aspect of your life. Look at what the workplace was like and pay scales were like before unions because that's just what your going to be back to. If you think all by yourself with no organization your going to have any bargaining power with your company your smoking crack.
I believe Unions made significant contributions in our past. 40 hour work weeks, vacations, health care benefits, and equal employment opportunities are to name a few.

However, it is important to remember that the strength of a Labor Union lies solely in it's membership. Given the obvious predominate attitude of the citizenry of this nation today, I would NOT look for meaningful advancements in the form of Labor Unions in the near future. Just more of the racial and economic divide rhetoric from the last 20 years or so.

Stick a fork in it. Labor Unions are done.

[jcwit]

Look at what the workplace was like and pay scales were like before unions because that's just what your going to be back to. If you think all by yourself with no organization your going to have any bargaining power with your company your smoking crack.

Not to sure about that. I never worked for a Union, ever.

But always made good money, at least enough to own new Corvette's, new Camaro's, own my own house, go thru the motorcycle craze, enjoy Deer hunting trips out west, month long vacations in Canada.

I've lived pretty darn good without the help of unions in anyway.

Course, I've always been in management too. Had an older brother who told me back in the 50's, it's always easier to tell someone else what to do, and you know what, he was right!

Now then back to Oreo's.

[dtknowles]

if you believe that I have a bridge for you. Profit for the stock holders is why its done. Many companys that aren't in the black go overseas. Polaris just moved there profitable atv division to mexico. Layed off all the American workers that brought that company from a very small producer of snowmobiles that didn't even make there own motors to one of the biggest snowmobile and atv producers in the world. What thanks did they get? A pink slip. I had a buddy that worked for them for 16 years that lost his job. No unions to blame either. This sure as heck isn't the only example of this. GREED is what sends these companys overseas and nothing else.

Kind of odd that American car manufactures in the 50s and 60s pulled down all kinds of profit and made everything right here and yes had union workers. Now they move a lot of there manufacturing and purchasing overseas and still barely hold on and use the unions for a scapegoat for there shady business practices. Its nothing but poor and greedy business practices. But they sure have some fooled.

They don't move for a few dollars, it cost millions to move so you either move to survive or the make many millions of dollars more. I you can make many millions of dollars more if you move you are obligated to the shareholders to do just that.

It was not Polaris's workers that grew the company it was the leadership that got the investment to expand their product line and build new products, the workers did not do that. The company hired new workers to build those products and trained them. If those workers are not competitive with Mexican workers (if the problem was taxes or regulation blame the government not the company), why do they think they deserve those jobs. Why aren't they at least thankful to the company for the years of work they did get and the training and skills they were taught. Why do workers think they own their jobs? The jobs belong to the Company Leaders, they created them.

If I invent a product, start a company, build a factory, buy some machines, and hire some workers. I make some money selling those products, pay wages, pay taxes, pay the bills. Then some one from Uganda makes me a offer for the whole thing, lots of money and I sell out. He moves the equipment to Uganda and sells the factory and lays off the staff. Did I do something wrong? I created some jobs for a while, paid taxes, trained some workers, they now have a job history for their resume, being the nice guy I am I probably paid them a severance bonus. Any reason those workers should have thought they had a job for life? I certainly did not tell them that.

Tim

[dtknowles]

A little background on why I feel the way I do about this issue. About 6 years ago I was laid off after 29 years with an aerospace company. I thought I would retire and did for a little while. One day I got a call from a guy I worked with in the past who knew about the layoff and the empty factory space where I used to work. He told me that he thought that the laid off workers and the empty factory space was a great opportunity and was starting a company to use that factory space and would I like to help him get it started. He explained his plan and I agreed to hire on (he was going to pay me and pay me well). We now have 20 or so employees and some contract labor. We are mostly hand to mouth. I lead our design teams, help with day to day products and help write new business proposals. I am one of 3 senior staff but we were all paid help and if the Owner sold the company all he owes us is our unused vacation. The workers did not make this company the Owner did, all the workers owe the Owner a debt for creating this opportunity for them. Even NASA should be grateful for the rent he pays for the space in their factory that is idle. The community should be grateful for the taxes and salaries he brings to the community. Workers in the surrounding area should be grateful for the upward wage pressure his hiring has generated.

Tim

[jcwit]

And that all sounds like a good thing.

[Firebricker]

Wow it only took three posts to turn a cookie thread to a anti-union thread. Seems odd nobody minds a ceo making 21 million a year but extremely resent a worker making 50k a year. The companys will eventually get rid of all unions then wages will really drop. Running that crew of 20 guys for minumum wage probably will not be much fun though. FB

[DCP]

Wow it only took three posts to turn a cookie thread to a anti-union thread. Seems odd nobody minds a ceo making 21 million a year but extremely resent a worker making 50k a year. The companys will eventually get rid of all unions then wages will really drop. Running that crew of 20 guys for minumum wage probably will not be much fun though. FB

This why it should be in the pit!
I saw it coming long ago.

[TXGunNut]

I allow myself two Oreos a day, when they run out I'll see if Wal-Mart carries Hydrox. If not it's probably time for a change anyway.
Headed out to do a bit of tractor shopping later, class I need seems to be manufactured exclusively overseas. Depressing.

[dtknowles]

Wow it only took three posts to turn a cookie thread to a anti-union thread. Seems odd nobody minds a ceo making 21 million a year but extremely resent a worker making 50k a year. The companys will eventually get rid of all unions then wages will really drop. Running that crew of 20 guys for minumum wage probably will not be much fun though. FB

There are reasons that a CEO can talk a company president into a $20M salary and why a worker has a hard time talking a CEO into a $50K salary and part of that is that the CEO can find workers for less than $50K. I know why I make what I make and why I got a call talk me into going back to work. These workers need to know what they are truly worth. Do you know what your market value is?

You might think that no CEO could be worth $20M, a CEO is worth whatever he can convince some Company President, Owner, or Board to pay him. Check out what happened to Pimco when Bill Goss left the company. I am anti-union, I think it is a crutch and an outdated one at that but unions are not all evil. A lazy Chief Operating Officer could just get a union to staff his factory but then you just get the rabble the union sends you. If you want good workers, you interview each worker and negotiate his pay and benefits on a one on one basis. The worker's loyalty is then to the person who hired them not to the union. Then if I think you are slacking I call you in and talk about what we said when I hired you. If you are union and I think you are slacking and I call you in you probably will want a union rep to be in on the discussion and blah, blah, blah, you will probably continue to be a slacker and if I try to fix the problem I get a grievance. In the end I end up paying a union worker more money and get less work and more grief. I have no commitment to union worker, if work load drops, I just tell the union I need less workers and if work increases I ask for more workers. If I have nonunion workers, I try to keep them on staff even when work slows, find other things they can do, can't do that with union workers. When I hire nonunion workers, I look for people with multiple skills and who don't like to be idle, workers who like a challenge and look forward to new and varied tasks. We are more of a custom house and don't really have a production line so my experiences are of that vein.

Tim

[bangerjim]

And they are sooooooooooooo fattening........yum! Part of the two main food groups: SUGAR and GREASE.

(This thread sure turned into a swamp real fast.)

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I never liked Oreos. There are much better cookies around. Now Twinkies, that is a whole different ball game. I am ready if the Zombies overrun the country. Me and woody, all the way to POP.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Funny. Maybe some of those illegal Mexicans that some people are so up tight over and hateful towards will run back to Mexico for those good paying 600 jobs. Sounds like a win win to me.
:veryconfu


Maybe that kind of business deal is partly why AMERICA has 94 Million citizens on the welfare? Seems that if nabisco could make cookies at a profit last year, they just wanted to make much more money by making cheap cookies in mexico at the same time as they lay off the total AMERICAN workforce. WIN-WIN, huh?

And BTW those Mexicans are never going back.

BvT

[458mag]

I never liked Oreos. There are much better cookies around. Now Twinkies, that is a whole different ball game. I am ready if the Zombies overrun the country. Me and woody, all the way to POP.
Yep and I remember the twinky people asking the unio workers for help because they were in trouble money wise. I think it was a small cut in wages. But NOOOOO they wernt going to give up anything. Well they went bank rupt and all the employees lost there job Im sure because some union boss said they were just bluffing. Some, not all, union folks aint to bright.

[Lloyd Smale]

you tell me that if your company gave you a pink slip after 25 years, maybe 5 years short of retirement youd be thankful to them for the kindness they showed giving you a job just long enough to make you about unemployable! I think not!!! Polaris didn't do this to expand its line. they make the same atvs they made then. They did it because mexico is about slave labor and they can hire 3 Mexicans for the cost of employing one American. Like I said in previous posts. I sure hope you or your family isn't the next AMERICAN to be displaced by Mexican, Chinese or Korean workers. Yup those fine corporations deserve a pat on the back for doing it. Its attitudes like this that is not only allowing but applauding the destruction of our economy. As long as it doesn't effect me I could care less should be tattooed on some of you. Personaly I think its a travesty that any fellow American looses his job to a foreign soil, be he union or non union. Be he white colar or blue colar.
They don't move for a few dollars, it cost millions to move so you either move to survive or the make many millions of dollars more. I you can make many millions of dollars more if you move you are obligated to the shareholders to do just that.

It was not Polaris's workers that grew the company it was the leadership that got the investment to expand their product line and build new products, the workers did not do that. The company hired new workers to build those products and trained them. If those workers are not competitive with Mexican workers (if the problem was taxes or regulation blame the government not the company), why do they think they deserve those jobs. Why aren't they at least thankful to the company for the years of work they did get and the training and skills they were taught. Why do workers think they own their jobs? The jobs belong to the Company Leaders, they created them.

If I invent a product, start a company, build a factory, buy some machines, and hire some workers. I make some money selling those products, pay wages, pay taxes, pay the bills. Then some one from Uganda makes me a offer for the whole thing, lots of money and I sell out. He moves the equipment to Uganda and sells the factory and lays off the staff. Did I do something wrong? I created some jobs for a while, paid taxes, trained some workers, they now have a job history for their resume, being the nice guy I am I probably paid them a severance bonus. Any reason those workers should have thought they had a job for life? I certainly did not tell them that.

Tim

[shooterg]

I'm not against unions in private industry, but am of the opinion no public employees should be in 'em. I wish the regulations and tariffs were more favorable to companies staying here. And I do not know all the answers. But I ain't buying any more
Oreos !

[Lloyd Smale]

you have to understand that your dealing with closed minded people who grew in in households with daddy badmouthing unions and also understand that most of us here are republican and some think being republican demands a close minded opinion of everything around them that reflects the republican ticket.

Also understand that its much easier for these close minded individuals to hate then to try to understand and to admit to themselves that they have better lives themselves today because of the things unions won for them in hard fought battles. They put the blinders on and don't want to admit that there pay scale for a job that has both union an non union workplaces is as high as it is because non union shops have to compete with union shops or they just wont get quality workers. They don't want to admit that just about every safety measure in any workplace came from the unions fighting for them.

If they were REALLY HONEST most of the would admitt they hate unions because they just cant stand the fact that a union worker might make a buck an hour more then them. Theyd rather hate another middle class man making a buck an hour more then they do then hate a vice president that makes a 100 times more then them. Why? Because they don't have the BA**S to stand up to the vice president and your a lot easier and safer target. Ive got a group of friends that consist of union workers, non union workers, small business owners and even clergy. Funny thing is ive never seen one of them angry over what the other did or if he were union or not. It doesn't even come up. But it sure does here with a group of the same cry babies every time. Just sad and you wont change it. Its the same type of predudice that the blacks deal with. Its imbedded in there minds at an early age and there not going to admit its just wrong to hate.

Don't worry though firebriciker. Ive been around guys like this all my life. the good thing is they dont say it to a guys face anyway. They do it on fourms like this. They are the typical sheep that go to work and do like good little sheep do. They are petrified of the big bad wolf and wont stand up for themselves let alone stand up for someone else. Ive said enough here. It does no good. About like trying to talk sense at a klan meeting.
Wow it only took three posts to turn a cookie thread to a anti-union thread. Seems odd nobody minds a ceo making 21 million a year but extremely resent a worker making 50k a year. The companys will eventually get rid of all unions then wages will really drop. Running that crew of 20 guys for minumum wage probably will not be much fun though. FB

[smokeywolf]

When discussing compensation, many say the value that the worker brings to the company should determine what his compensation should be. Well, the sheer number of people available with the worker's knowledge, skills, abilities and qualifications (the competition for his job) also plays a very large role in his considered value.

Why are workers often not paid at a rate which matches their productivity and the local economic standards and conditions? Because the labor market is diluted by trade pacts and agreements with other countries that suffer under a lower standard of living (and wages). Plus, an artificially bloated labor market in the U.S., the result of bribery of politicians by CEOs, big business and chambers of commerce, to ignore the immigration laws put in place to protect America and Americans.

When a board of directors evaluate a potential CEO candidate they look for track record and credentials. Credentials include a top notch school, like Wharton. Because they're usually only interested in a candidate from a top school, that means that the number of candidates will be quite limited and most of those candidates will have come from well-to-do families. A Wharton MBA will cost at least $400,000. Harvard MBA maybe $375,000.

These well connected, well funded candidates not only have little competition, but being a bit of a rich man's club, they seem to avoid competing with each other at all. Ergo the unrealistic compensation packages that often include golden parachute packages even if they mismanage the company into bankruptcy.

[dtknowles]

..............to admit to themselves that they have better lives themselves today because of the things unions won for them in hard fought battles. They put the blinders on and don't want to admit that there pay scale for a job that has both union an non union workplaces is as high as it is because non union shops have to compete with union shops or they just wont get quality workers. They don't want to admit that just about every safety measure in any workplace came from the unions fighting for them.

If they were REALLY HONEST most of the would admitt they hate unions because they just cant stand the fact that a union worker might make a buck an hour more then them. Theyd rather hate another middle class man making a buck an hour more then they do then hate a vice president that makes a 100 times more then them. Why? Because they don't have the BA**S to stand up to the vice president and your a lot easier and safer target. Ive got a group of friends that consist of union workers, non union workers, small business owners and even clergy. Funny thing is ive never seen one of them angry over what the other did or if he were union or not. It doesn't even come up. But it sure does here with a group of the same cry babies every time. Just sad and you wont change it. Its the same type of predudice that the blacks deal with. Its imbedded in there minds at an early age and there not going to admit its just wrong to hate.

Don't worry though firebriciker. Ive been around guys like this all my life. the good thing is they dont say it to a guys face anyway. They do it on fourms like this. They are the typical sheep that go to work and do like good little sheep do. They are petrified of the big bad wolf and wont stand up for themselves let alone stand up for someone else. Ive said enough here. It does no good. About like trying to talk sense at a klan meeting.

I would say everything I have said in the thread to your face or anyone who can stand to hear its face.

No union has done anything that would have increased my pay or benefits. There is not company not even Boeing, has union employees who do what I do or make the kind of money I make. I develop ideas and products and designs that create jobs for other people. If some of those jobs end up being union jobs that is Ok but the union never seems to make the product better or cheaper.

I don't know any union worker who makes the kind of money I make so I am not jealous not even of my airline pilot buddy, he does work for a union but the unions have a lock on airline pilot jobs, can't be one for a major without being union. He as a steward for a while. I still like him.

Tim

[dtknowles]

And they are sooooooooooooo fattening........yum! Part of the two main food groups: SUGAR and GREASE.

(This thread sure turned into a swamp real fast.)\

My choice of sugar and fat is shortbread cookies, Kebler are good but then too are Lorna Doon and there are some nice Scottish ones that are nice.

Tim

[Love Life]

Oreo lives matter.

[dtknowles]

you tell me that if your company gave you a pink slip after 25 years, maybe 5 years short of retirement youd be thankful to them for the kindness they showed giving you a job just long enough to make you about unemployable! I think not!!!

Actually I got the pick slip after 29 years, 7 months at age 52. I was thankful for every thing they did for me. The training, the pay, the mentors, the 401k contributions and my vested retirement. It turns out I was still employable and actually in great demand because of the contacts I made while working and the skills I had learned. I am now 57 and have not started to collect my pension, they sent me two offers to buy it out but I am going to wait until I qualify for full pension and then collect with survivor benefits for my wife.

Tim

[JWFilips]

Oreo lives matter.
Too Many Oreo's And Our lives won't matter!

[Iowa Fox]

The only thing I eat is my wifes homemade. She buys her flour in 50# bags so I know what city ground it. Hard to eat store bought anything compared to homemade.

Its not only this woman. I've been complaining about CEO's making big bucks while the workers get the shaft for 20 years.. It started in 1980 at our company. The only thing that will change it is the way you spend your money. Nothing will change until their profits dry up.

[starmac]

Lmao. lots of bickering caused by something NOBODY needs. It's a cookie folks. lol

[DCP]

No job is safe Union or Management!!!

There is always some one younger and smarter that will work for peanuts.
They do it to get there foot in the door. The companies take advantage of this.
When your old and need to slow down, most all companies will let you go and hire the younger worker.
A union will help slow it down but then they move overseas.

If you think a management job will protect you, your living in LA LA Land.
Depending on your age, is the part of the boat your in.

IT IS ALL STILL CALLED GREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lloyd Smale]

so then why do you feel your worth that kind of money and I as an electrical lineman am not. You could no sooner do my job then I yours. Maybe you should respect the fact that its union lineman that keep the lights on there or union police, the union miners who dig the ore out of the ground to make the steel that makes your car or the steel worker that makes that steel, nurses fire fighters that protect your family or maybe the union teachers that gave you the education you needed to do your job.

What about the union pilots and ground workers and stewards that fly the planes that make your job in such a demand. Also ill add that you are spouting one of the biggest misconceptions there is about unions. they are there BECAUSE the workers want them. You say your buddy is forced to be in a union. If the majority of pilots agreed with him the union would be gone. Do you feel the unions should be gone because maybe 10 percent of the pilots don't want them. Same goes for the unions at any shop. Its the majority vote that keeps them there. Bottom line is he choose being a pilot knowing darned well that he would be a union worker. If he was so much against it maybe he should have done something different like you did. I find it comical that people will hate a union, take a union job and then complain about it. If you don't want to work union DONT. Its as simple as that.

Maybe there is no union job that mirrors yours but to say union workers never helped you is wrong and if in fact there is no union worker doing the same your in a very rare position and are probably at a wage level that doesn't even include you in what most consider the middle class. So I guess its understandable that you would want to oppress others just like the rest of the more wealthy do. I think the average guy on here doesn't even make 20 bucks an hour let alone what your pulling down. More power to you but don't come bashing the real middle class American workers that most union workers are included in. If you are management and are wining because you have to pay a worker so much money that he can actually afford to support his family then you are the cause not the cure and are just one of those that put down unions to smokescreen there own greed.
I would say everything I have said in the thread to your face or anyone who can stand to hear its face.

No union has done anything that would have increased my pay or benefits. There is not company not even Boeing, has union employees who do what I do or make the kind of money I make. I develop ideas and products and designs that create jobs for other people. If some of those jobs end up being union jobs that is Ok but the union never seems to make the product better or cheaper.

I don't know any union worker who makes the kind of money I make so I am not jealous not even of my airline pilot buddy, he does work for a union but the unions have a lock on airline pilot jobs, can't be one for a major without being union. He as a steward for a while. I still like him.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

nice to be so wealthy you don't need your pension. I don't know of a single middle class worker union or not that ever said that! You are surely far from the majority here. So again and this time for good im gone from this argument. Its the non union worker that makes the same or near the same that im trying to convince that unions aren't the cause of the collapse of this country. No one is going to convince the wealthier like you or the bubba that decides to stay in his home town near mommy and make 10 bucks an hour that hates the fact that someone with a bit more ambition be he union or non union makes twice what he does. It just blows my mind that some are so gullible as to believe that a 25 dollar an hour worker is destroying this country because hes overpaid and an exec from one of the big car companys has an expense account that's twice what the worker makes and a bonus every year that's bigger then what that worker makes in 10 years! Or that a man will admit that he makes much more then a union pilot that is responsible for a 100s lives each day designing little parts for a plane and then bash the union that is only trying to make it fair for that pilot. Keep blaming the unions and the union workers while the rich get richer. They will be thankful although I doubt they will ever tell you. Bye now. Its been fun:killingpc
Actually I got the pick slip after 29 years, 7 months at age 52. I was thankful for every thing they did for me. The training, the pay, the mentors, the 401k contributions and my vested retirement. It turns out I was still employable and actually in great demand because of the contacts I made while working and the skills I had learned. I am now 57 and have not started to collect my pension, they sent me two offers to buy it out but I am going to wait until I qualify for full pension and then collect with survivor benefits for my wife.

Tim

[jonp]

I was responsible and started saving when I got out of the military 30yrs ago. I could see the writing on the wall and doubted I'd see a cent of Social Security. I have my own Roth and IRA. In 10yrs or so when I retire full time I won't need SS or a "pension" to get by. That's called being responsible for yourself and not depending on Government or a company pension.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and I raised 4 kids and payed for a home and couldn't afford to say that much on my income (union) So I take it due to the fact you don't depend on the government you wont be taking your social security because as you said you don't need it. kind of you to save them money so us that do will have it:roll: I will take my social security. I don't consider it depending on ANYONE. Its my money. I payed it in and I will take it back. Same goes for my pension. I worked for over 30 years at a job anyone would consider hard and just like dtknowles, a job that very few others can or would do and part of my wage package was my retirement benefits. I worked and gave them a very fair days work for my wage package and its mine not theres. You may not need them but you sure are in the minority on here id bet. This is getting ridiculous now. I try to leave and a post like this comes up that is so far out of touch with main stream reality. Seems to me like its the non union guys on here that make so much more money that they must be the reason everything is so expensive not the poor union man.:Fire: Anyone else want to brag about how much money they have[smilie=1:
I was responsible and started saving when I got out of the military 30yrs ago. I could see the writing on the wall and doubted I'd see a cent of Social Security. I have my own Roth and IRA. In 10yrs or so when I retire full time I won't need SS or a "pension" to get by. That's called being responsible for yourself and not depending on Government or a company pension.

[Firebricker]

No winning these arguments here in "Our anti-union Town" politics belong in the pit unless it is anti-union then it is ok. Tim I'll take your word for it that you are very very special and wealthy more important than the lowly working guy. And do not need all the workers under you. I guess it would be interesting to see how you do it all by yourself or with minimum wage workers. Sorry but do not think I would ride on a plane you personally did all manufacturing and maintence. FB

[dtknowles]

so then why do you feel your worth that kind of money and I as an electrical lineman am not. You could no sooner do my job then I yours. Maybe you should respect the fact that its union lineman that keep the lights on there or union police, the union miners who dig the ore out of the ground to make the steel that makes your car or the steel worker that makes that steel, nurses fire fighters that protect your family or maybe the union teachers that gave you the education you needed to do your job...........

I could have learned to do your job, do you think you could have learned to do mine. There are very few people who can do my job and at my current level you can't just go take a class to learn it. I have the shared knowledge of 5 mentors who taught me what I know today. This was stuff that is not in books along with my BS in Aeronautical Engineering, a short course in Cryogenic Engineering at UCLA and some time at Carnegie Mellon. I worked at 3 major U.S. launch VAFB, KSC and Wallops as well as three other major NASA Facilities, Michoud Assembly Facility, Stennis Space Center and Glenn Research Center (At the airport and Plumbrook Station).

The Kicker, really, is people who know me and that I worked with have hired me and agreed to pay my rate. These are not personal friends, these are business associates, managers, directors, vice presidents, and presidents. I know what I am worth because I have been a hiring manager, I have see personnel records and know what people are paid for what kind of skills, I know what kind of skills are hard to find and what are easy.

When I started out a Union Welder made more than I did. An engineer right out of college is easier to find and less valuable than a certified welder. The certified welder was at the top of his trade but the engineer was at the bottom of his, the engineer had a lot of room to grow but the welder was already topped out.

Tim

[dtknowles]

.............What about the union pilots and ground workers and stewards that fly the planes that make your job in such a demand. Also ill add that you are spouting one of the biggest misconceptions there is about unions. they are there BECAUSE the workers want them. You say your buddy is forced to be in a union. If the majority of pilots agreed with him the union would be gone. Do you feel the unions should be gone because maybe 10 percent of the pilots don't want them. Same goes for the unions at any shop. Its the majority vote that keeps them there. Bottom line is he choose being a pilot knowing darned well that he would be a union worker. If he was so much against it maybe he should have done something different like you did. I find it comical that people will hate a union, take a union job and then complain about it. If you don't want to work union DONT. Its as simple as that.

Maybe there is no union job that mirrors yours but to say union workers never helped you is wrong and if in fact there is no union worker doing the same your in a very rare position and are probably at a wage level that doesn't even include you in what most consider the middle class. So I guess its understandable that you would want to oppress others just like the rest of the more wealthy do. I think the average guy on here doesn't even make 20 bucks an hour let alone what your pulling down. More power to you but don't come bashing the real middle class American workers that most union workers are included in. If you are management and are wining because you have to pay a worker so much money that he can actually afford to support his family then you are the cause not the cure and are just one of those that put down unions to smokescreen there own greed.

I did not say that that my buddy was force to be in the Union, I said he was in the Union because all Pilots that fly for major airlines are in a Union. The same for almost all the people who work for Airlines. The Airlines like it that way, I think, I don't really know but seems that way. I wonder about the Pilots unions, how did they end up with two pay scales and two sets of benefits, A scale (old timers) and B scale for younger pilots or ones hired after the two scale system was put in place. Something was not right there. I think the Autoworkers have something like that now too.

I did not say that I hate Unions or that they were responsible for the downfall of the country. I said I was antiunion, I prefer too work in non-union shops. I prefer to hire my employees directly and have them loyal to me not to the Union.

I give credit to our workers and recognize that I am a worker too, we all work for the owner and have our job to do. The product does not go out the door unless everyone does his part. We are a team.

Tim

[Love Life]

More class envy and division going on here. It's funny. I can be a grunt, but dang sure wouldn't want to be a lineman. Electricity gives me the heebie jeebies. I can't build rockets and planes, have no urge to even go to school to even learn the stuff, so I don't bother the people who can.

If a person agrees to a wage/benefits package, and they hold up their end, then absolutely they deserve and have earned every penny of it!!

If a person decides to take control of their money, and build a nest egg, then absolutely they deserve every penny of it!!

The only people I do not care for are the career welfare bums. There are other bums who offend my sensibilities, but to call them out is not politically correct.

[jcwit]

I feel a lot of this boils down to being satisfied with ones lot in life, or not being satisfied.

I am not rich by any means, but own my own home, debt free, we own 2 fairly nice autos, both rust free with no payments, we have more than enough to eat, and both my wife and I are in fairly good health for our age.

I feel we are blessed beyond measure with no regard as to where we worked at all.

Are we both successful, you bet if in fact being successful is in fact being happy, and boy Oh boy are we happy!

Think about it folks, its not rocket science.

[dtknowles]

No winning these arguments here in "Our anti-union Town" politics belong in the pit unless it is anti-union then it is ok. Tim I'll take your word for it that you are very very special and wealthy more important than the lowly working guy. And do not need all the workers under you. I guess it would be interesting to see how you do it all by yourself or with minimum wage workers. Sorry but do not think I would ride on a plane you personally did all manufacturing and maintence. FB

Just because you might me out numbered does not mean you opinion is not valuable. I am stating my opinion and explaining why I feel the way I do.

People are valued by their skills and attitude. I am glad someone cleans the bathroom and does not bitch about it but they don't make $20 an hour. I am glad the CAD draftsmen models the parts properly and I don't have to tell him every detail but he does not make $50 an hour. I am glad the weld engineer completes his welds with very little rework but he better get one of the apprentices up to speed soon otherwise he is going to hold up deliveries, he does not make $75 an hour and the apprentices have a very long way to go if they are ever going to make close to that kind of money.

I am probably not a rich as you think, I am not in the 1 percent on either pay or wealth. I don't need or want to collect my pension right now since I have a good paying job.

I am special to this company because of my skills and experience, there are not that many cryogenic liquid rocket booster designers in the world that speak good English. Most have jobs and would not want to change.

You can criticize me for being a "Prima Dona", I believe that there are different levels of contribution and different levels of reward. We are not all equal except under the Law or in the eyes of God. I would ride on a plane I personally made and maintained but of course it would be a small slow plane. The man-hours needed to build and maintain an airliner would not leave any time for actually flying.

We don't pay anyone minimum wage. Our lowliest worker still needs to have a clean background and perform to high standards and so is paid appropriately.

Tim

[DCP]

Gents

This is the internet you can be anything you want.
Just like there are more people (claiming) to be Vietnam Vets than ever before. Must be the in thing to do now.

Last, those who have to blow there own horn. Most often don't have anything in the tank! I met some women like that once (ok more that once) I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

[DougGuy]

I feel a lot of this boils down to being satisfied with ones lot in life, or not being satisfied.

I am not rich by any means, but own my own home, debt free, we own 2 fairly nice autos, both rust free with no payments, we have more than enough to eat, and both my wife and I are in fairly good health for our age.

I feel we are blessed beyond measure with no regard as to where we worked at all.

Are we both successful, you bet if in fact being successful is in fact being happy, and boy Oh boy are we happy!

Think about it folks, its not rocket science.

+1

One of the songs I wrote is about being happy with less, basically because with that philosophy comes less bs as well, so.. One of the verses in there is pretty much me, who prefers day to day happiness and less stress over money and other things that people tend to gauge one's success with. You have heard folks say "You got it made, you in hog heaven" well this is a few steps shy of having it "made" so I called the song "Pig Heaven" and the verse I am referring to goes like this:

"I don't want money, if it can't make me smile,

Tie me to a wagon full of gold, I wouldn't pull it a half a mile.

Oh Lord, thanks for the small things that put a sparkle in my eye,

Learn to be happy inside and you'll understand why

I say I'm in Pig Heaven, have a roll in the sh1t,

It don't get better, how happy can one pig get." :bigsmyl2:

And NO, there ain't no place for OREOs in Pig Heaven!

[dtknowles]

............Or that a man will admit that he makes much more then a union pilot that is responsible for a 100s lives each day designing little parts for a plane and then bash the union that is only trying to make it fair for that pilot. Keep blaming the unions and the union workers while the rich get richer. They will be thankful although I doubt they will ever tell you.......

Did I blame the unions for anything? I just said I was anti-union and prefer to work in non-union shops. I did not say I made a lot more than my pilot buddy, I said I made more. It is just a little more, he is a 777 captain, they make pretty good money, we were in college together and sometimes he made the better paycheck.

I do not design little parts for airplanes, guys who do that don't make all that much money. I have guys who work for me who do the design of details like brackets etc., though I do some of that grunt work sometimes. We all do what we need to do to get the job done.

Tim

[40-82 hiker]

\

My choice of sugar and fat is shortbread cookies, Kebler are good but then too are Lorna Doon and there are some nice Scottish ones that are nice.

Tim


Lorna Doone! Yeah, my favorite store bought cookie when I was a kid. Advertised Lorna Doones on Sky King, my favorite show (mostly reruns I guess)... But alas, it's another Nabisco cookie. I still like them, but again prefer to eat my wife's homemade cookies when I indulge. Much better...

As an aside, I remember reading a comment in a previous post in this thread concerning sugar availability and cost in this country. Even Lorna Doones have high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) in them because of the sugar tariff issues. Since sugar is more expensive than it should be as it is regulated in ways I am not familiar, and corn starch is not regulated in any way, HFCS (made from corn starch) has unfortunately become a manufacturing need of choice, even though not good for us. Care or not? Doesn't matter to me... I mostly eat stuff that comes out of our kitchen without HFCS (no sodas either). Fix the sugar tariff issues and we could fix the HFCS issues... Or not.

[Lloyd Smale]

you climbing up a 100 feet on a pole in a storm to hot stick 138,000 volt transmission lines. Just being smart enough to do it is only a 1/3 of the job. You have to have a set too. Your job if you make a mistake you erase it and start over. My job you make a mistake and if your lucky its only you that dies not your crew. Lots claim they can do it but its sure not for everyone. Id suggest if you want to try it to wear brown dockers that day so the stains don't show.:roll: Bottom line is the country would be hurting without the airlines but would find ways to get around it. Have all the union lineman in the country walk off there jobs and see how long the country would last without electricity[smilie=1:

What is it you do that you are the only one capable?? Michigan tech here trains mechanical engineers everyday. I know. I spent a year there before I got bored with it and went in the service. I didn't want to sit behind a desk in an office all day or wear dockers to work. By the way the year I was there I pulled a 3.8 gpa thinking I wanted to be an electrical engineer. Not genius level for sure but surely good enough that I could have been an engineer if I wanted to. Theres sure no shortage of brilliant people in this country that don't know which end of a hammer to use so im sure theres a few that could engineer anything you do. That is unless you claim to be superior in intelligence to the rest of us lowly bullet casters:coffee: Im proud of the fact that im nothing but a good old boy that made his living doing real manual labor and spent my entire carreer in the most beautiful office in the world. the great outdoors. I was happy with the wage package I had but want to choke arrogant sobs that think that somehow I was overpaid especially when the most dangerous part of there day is keep not spilling morning coffee on there lap. No, its sure not unions that are destroying the middle class.
I could have learned to do your job, do you think you could have learned to do mine. There are very few people who can do my job and at my current level you can't just go take a class to learn it. I have the shared knowledge of 5 mentors who taught me what I know today. This was stuff that is not in books along with my BS in Aeronautical Engineering, a short course in Cryogenic Engineering at UCLA and some time at Carnegie Mellon. I worked at 3 major U.S. launch VAFB, KSC and Wallops as well as three other major NASA Facilities, Michoud Assembly Facility, Stennis Space Center and Glenn Research Center (At the airport and Plumbrook Station).

The Kicker, really, is people who know me and that I worked with have hired me and agreed to pay my rate. These are not personal friends, these are business associates, managers, directors, vice presidents, and presidents. I know what I am worth because I have been a hiring manager, I have see personnel records and know what people are paid for what kind of skills, I know what kind of skills are hard to find and what are easy.

When I started out a Union Welder made more than I did. An engineer right out of college is easier to find and less valuable than a certified welder. The certified welder was at the top of his trade but the engineer was at the bottom of his, the engineer had a lot of room to grow but the welder was already topped out.

Tim

[40-82 hiker]

I have a few comments concerning unions, though I am on the fence about them for a number of reasons. They have been VERY needed in the past in the country, and are probably needed for some reasons now. However, my early childhood interactions with unions were in situations where the UMW was striking for very needed safety and pay issues. What the UMW was fighting for were HUGE issues in the day, and I am not sure but what unions still might needed given the greed of corporate boards. Anyway...

1) My mother's father was killed in a coal dust explosion when she was 10 years old. The company held the lives of 49 men less valuable than cleaning up ankle deep coal dust they were complaining about.

2) My mother's stepfather died of black lung around 1971 as a result of being a powder man in the coal mines. Safety advances on the job for the miners were a result of these two deaths (and thousands others) and the fights by the UMW to prevent them.

3) I grew up being told, and hence believing, John L Lewis was a god of sorts. The fights he and his UMW were involved in were life and death matters for the miners. Unions were a watchdog when our government was not (regarding these issues, a watchdog IS needed). I do not have the personal experience to know how needed unions are (or not) these days, but I agree with anyone who believes corporate boards cannot be trusted due to the greed of the bottom line, and their own yearly bonuses. JMHO.

[Lloyd Smale]

Look to the non union coal mines in states like West VA and youll see those things still happen today. Throw out unions and while your at it toss ossha out the door to beause the union brought you them and see how long big companys continue to spend big parts of there profits on safety measures.

As a lineman ill give you an example. Theres lots of non union lineman. Especially down south. I remember reading one article in a linemans news flyer we use to get (and no it wasn't a union paper). An article in it said that 9 lineman had been killed in electrical accidents that year and EVERY ONE of them were non union shops.

Up here we had a couple non union contractors our company wound contract with. Looking at the equipment they showed up with you wouldn't have got me on a pole for a 100 bucks an hour. Just about every one of them were lineman that washed out of union apprenticeships and went to work there. The line foreman was a 25 year old kid that was the son of the company owner. We once caught the bunch of them including the 25 year old foreman smoking dope at lunch time and kicked them off our property and even then had a fight with our upper management because they didn't want to pay a more expensive contractor. The reality was they didn't care if they were getting high as long as the job got done. Only reason they had to comply and boot them off was that it was in our work rules too and if they let them then they opened themselves up to there own people doing it. Our company sure lost a lot of respect from our lineman when the shuffled here feet over that one.

No real surprise though. Big business could care less about you or any other worker. Even there lower white colar crew. They care about upper management and the stock holders in that order and it doesn't go one bit further. Again if you believe different Ive got a bridge for you. So yes hiker there is much need of unions today. But the unions have to evolve with the rest of the country and the shysters that are employed by them at top levels have to be shown the door too.
I have a few comments concerning unions, though I am on the fence about them for a number of reasons. They have been VERY needed in the past in the country, and are probably needed for some reasons now. However, my early childhood interactions with unions were in situations where the UMW was striking for very needed safety and pay issues. What the UMW was fighting for were HUGE issues in the day, and I am not sure but what unions still might needed given the greed of corporate boards. Anyway...

1) My mother's father was killed in a coal dust explosion when she was 10 years old. The company held the lives of 49 men less valuable than cleaning up ankle deep coal dust they were complaining about.

2) My mother's stepfather died of black lung around 1971 as a result of being a powder man in the coal mines. Safety advances on the job for the miners were a result of these two deaths (and thousands others) and the fights by the UMW to prevent them.

3) I grew up being told, and hence believing, John L Lewis was a god of sorts. The fights he and his UMW were involved in were life and death matters for the miners. Unions were a watchdog when our government was not (regarding these issues, a watchdog IS needed). I do not have the personal experience to know how needed unions are (or not) these days, but I agree with anyone who believes corporate boards cannot be trusted due to the greed of the bottom line, and their own yearly bonuses. JMHO.

[dtknowles]

you climbing up a 100 feet on a pole in a storm to hot stick 138,000 volt transmission lines. Just being smart enough to do it is only a 1/3 of the job. You have to have a set too. Your job if you make a mistake you erase it and start over. My job you make a mistake and if your lucky its only you that dies not your crew. Lots claim they can do it but its sure not for everyone. Id suggest if you want to try it to wear brown dockers that day so the stains don't show.:roll: Bottom line is the country would be hurting without the airlines but would find ways to get around it. Have all the union lineman in the country walk off there jobs and see how long the country would last without electricity[smilie=1:

What is it you do that you are the only one capable?? Michigan tech here trains mechanical engineers everyday. I know. I spent a year there before I got bored with it and went in the service. I didn't want to sit behind a desk in an office all day or wear dockers to work. By the way the year I was there I pulled a 3.8 gpa thinking I wanted to be an electrical engineer. Not genius level for sure but surely good enough that I could have been an engineer if I wanted to. Theres sure no shortage of brilliant people in this country that don't know which end of a hammer to use so im sure theres a few that could engineer anything you do. That is unless you claim to be superior in intelligence to the rest of us lowly bullet casters:coffee: Im proud of the fact that im nothing but a good old boy that made his living doing real manual labor and spent my entire carreer in the most beautiful office in the world. the great outdoors. I was happy with the wage package I had but want to choke arrogant sobs that think that somehow I was overpaid especially when the most dangerous part of there day is keep not spilling morning coffee on there lap. No, its sure not unions that are destroying the middle class.

Before I went to college I cut pulp too earn money to pay my room and board. In my first year at KSC I was in safety harness with lanyard on the GOX Hood at the end of the GOX Vent Arm outside the handrails service the External Tank Tumble Valve, that is off the 275 foot level of the Fixed Service Structure.

At VAFB I was part of the crew activating the Liquid Oxygen storage facility, we off loaded LOX tankers and pumped the system up with LOX for leak and functional checks.

I was asked to audit the Stennis Space Center Cryogenic storage facilities and I was right there with the crew off loading Liquid Hydrogen tankers into the storage tanks.

At Glenn Research Center I was right there under the X-33 liquid oxygen tank half full of liquid oxygen while Jimmy and I adjusted the struts to get to loads balanced so we could finish filling the tank so we could start our experiment.

I did not learn what I know just sitting at a desk but I don't take stupid risks either. I will not send someone out to do a job or to a situation that I would not do myself.

I already said what I do that not many others do, I design cryogenic rocket boosters, I know what is required design them, assemble them, clean them, test them, and launch them. I have worked on all phases of the product life cycle from concept to launch, from the ground ops, manufacturing and flight ops points of view. I have also worked on satellites and manned spacecraft. My last job working for Lockheed Martin, I was the Orion Ground Test Article Project Manager.

After pressure testing, “the GTA framework will be outfitted with internal and external mass and volume simulators for components like the crew seats and consoles, lockers, life support, environmental control, waste management, and more,” explained Tim Knowles. He is the Orion GTA Vehicle manager for Lockheed Martin at Michoud.

http://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/nasas-first-lunar-orion-test-capsule-built/

Tim

[dtknowles]

.....wear brown dockers that day so the stains don't show.........
.......Michigan tech here trains mechanical engineers everyday. I know. I spent a year there before I got bored with it and went in the service. I didn't want to sit behind a desk in an office all day or wear dockers to work. By the way the year I was there I pulled a 3.8 gpa thinking I wanted to be an electrical engineer.........Im proud of the fact that im nothing but a good old boy that made his living doing real manual labor and spent my entire carreer in the most beautiful office in the world. the great outdoors. I was happy with the wage package I had but want to choke arrogant sobs that think that somehow I was overpaid especially when the most dangerous part of there day is keep not spilling morning coffee on there lap. No, its sure not unions that are destroying the middle class.

I never said the unions were destroying the middle class. It looks like you could have learned to do my job or at least the technical part of it but I doubt you would have had the temperament to deal with all the BS. I got laid off over the BS so I can understand where you might be coming from on that front. I always preferred working outside and testing to the office work but I would be less valuable if all I did was testing or site activation or ground ops.

What is your problem with dockers.......When I started we wore black dress pants and white short sleeve shirts with pocket protectors, then just dress pants and shirt. Transferred to Michoud it was coat and tie. In the field at Vandenberg it was boots, jeans and work shirt. Where I work now most of us wear jeans and logo polo shirts with either mission logos or program logos or vendor logos or our company logo Vivace, actually the Vivace shirts are golf shirts, the owners wife (VP) likes that style I think. When I was PM on Orion I did wear Dockers Khakis, same when I work on Orbital's Cygnus program.

The wheels and most Program Managers still go for the Coat and Tie.

We had our Preliminary Design Review with the customer a month ago, we were directed to wear either a Coat or a Tie, at the customers request.

Tim

[jcwit]

Looks as if Lloyd has a real hatred towards management.

I remember the day's working in the R/V Industry wearing a suit or maybe a Sport Coat it the least. Dress shirt & tie were required, sadly the dress code's of today have changed all that.

[dtknowles]

I want to say, I could agree that examples of the Mine Workers Union and the Line Men's Union might be necessary and useful for preventing workers being subjected to unsafe working environments.

It is unfortunate that someone would go to work in an unsafe work environment but I understand that some people are so desperate for work that they do and someone has to stop the Owners and Managers who would do that to people. If the Unions can stop this then maybe they are valuable sometimes.

Tim

[jonp]

"I want to say, I could agree that examples of the Mine Workers Union and the Line Men's Union might be necessary and useful for preventing workers being subjected to unsafe working environments."

That's what OSHA is for.

I've never made much more than 50K a year. Never needed more. While the union guys at the mill were making more than me and buying new trucks, 4 wheelers, ski-doo's, boats etc I was making do with used trucks and no ski-doo and putting some aside for my retirement. Not bragging, I just put some aside like a responsible person. When the mill closed and everyone had a yard full of toys for sale I didn't much mind as I could survive several years on my savings without touching my retirement. I guess I took my grandparents teachings and lifestyle to heart. Make do with what you have, hunt and fish to supplement food, have a garden and can it for the winter and generally take care of yourself. Nothing made me laugh more than watching a big storm hit somewhere and have everyone within one day line up for food. One day? Don't you people have any food in your pantry? I keep at least 6 months on hand. Not because I'm a prepper of some type but I grew up like that and everyone I knew did the same thing as a matter of course. My grandmother made her own clothes by sewing them. Everyone now thinks they need gor-tex boots and $400 insulated jackets during the winter. I grew up having homemade knit hats and mittens (2 pair if it was really cold in Northern Vermont) and lining my boots with plastic bags to keep them dry. Never bothered me much and worked fine.

I have nothing against unions. I believe in freedom of choice and association but I also strongly object to being forced to join one and pay someone to have a job. If everyone had a union job and made, say, $25/hr then the resulting influx of money would raise prices for every service across the board. If we import tons of stuff and pay our workers $10/hr they can buy at WalMart and get by. The problem is that people seem to think they "need" smartphones, cable tv with the big screen, a brand new car, giant house, bass boat etc. when they don't and spend all of their money on that stuff then wonder why they have no retirement savings except what the government provides for them.

My wife and I together are into 6 figures. My primary car is 20yrs old. My pick-up is a 2004. I can well afford a brand new one buy refuse to buy it. I'll save the payment and put it into my 401K

[Lloyd Smale]

and unions brought you osha!!! love it or hate it.

[jonp]

and unions brought you osha!!! love it or hate it.

They most certainly did and were valuable in pushing through work place safety rule and stopping companies from killing men and women. Now every state and the federal government takes a keen interest in safety. Unions don't need to do that job anymore. The world has changed and is not going back to closed borders.

[Lloyd Smale]

no hatred toward management. A lot of hatred toward upper management that tear up companys to line there own pockets and then try to steer all the blind toward the unions for the blame of a company failing. One of the vice presidents (ex vice presidents) of the utility I worked for used to hunt at our camp. He got fired because the workers liked him and he knew all of them by first name and the president had the personality of a shark. He know works for another utility in a different state and our wonderful ex president orchestrated a take over by another utility with a golden parachute for him and the other two vice presidents. Nope, sorry but I don't hate any good man no matter what his income is, bet it 10 grand a year or 10 million if hes an honest man but I bet you could count the exec who make 10 million that are good honest men on one or two fingers. I also don't have much use for anyone that thinks his income is in any way a measure of how good of a man he is or how important he thinks he is. There is definitely a correlation in this country between income levels and cut throat levels :drinks:
Looks as if Lloyd has a real hatred towards management.

I remember the day's working in the R/V Industry wearing a suit or maybe a Sport Coat it the least. Dress shirt & tie were required, sadly the dress code's of today have changed all that.

[Lloyd Smale]

you cant tell me you honestly believe that the president of gm isn't going to put the welfare of his stock holders over the welfare of his assembly line workers. Who is then going to enforce those safety rules and violations. The foreman whos bonus relies on production. You live in a dream world if you think some of those hard fought work rules aren't going to be thrown out the door. Its cheaper to pay one law suit every year or two then it is to slow down production. My dad once told me that if someone you work for is to good to go and have a beer with you after work he will throw you under the bus when it makes him look good. So far I haven't been able to prove him wrong. You say now im suppose to rely on the government and politicians to protect me at work. Sorry but im not drinking that koolaid!!!!!!
They most certainly did and were valuable in pushing through work place safety rule and stopping companies from killing men and women. Now every state and the federal government takes a keen interest in safety. Unions don't need to do that job anymore. The world has changed and is not going back to closed borders.

[jonp]

The assembly line workers better be stockholders. They have GM stock in their 401k's or should if they work there and most likely get it at a cut rate as part of the union contract.

[Lloyd Smale]

everyone and there brother with 401 ks so popular these days are stock holders in about every company. Doesn't mean squat. The real stockholders are the majority stock holders. The ones that count there money in millions of dollars not thousands.

[jonp]

So, LLoyd? That would mean the majority will do the best for the company and try to make the most money which means that all of the shareholders benefit.

A company does not exist to provide jobs. It exists to make money and owes no-one anything. I know Warrior Princess Warren begs to differ on this point but it is how capitalism works.

[Garyshome]

So why in the world would I care what happens in Chi town after the old Mob town forcing obama [Rahm,Ayers,Axelrod,Opra,Farrakahn......] on me and mine. I'll just take a guess on which way they all voted! Maybe they got what they voted for.

[Lloyd Smale]

a company cannot exist without those employees too my friend and has a responsibility to treat them fairly and provide a safe work environment. that is unless when I wasn't looking china or Russia took over this country. I would guess by the way some of you think this country would be better off if all workers made 10 bucks an hour so that big business could just make more. If that's your belief theres companys like Walmart that will oblige you.

Some here don't think its fair that I made 30 bucks an hour while they made 20. But do they worry about the Walmart employees that think its unfair that they you make 20 while they make 10! With your reasoning we should all adopt the Walmart way! What makes you think your worth more then a Walmart employee. Also lets look at the white colar jobs in these companys. they could save major money and make bigger profits if they paid them 10 bucks an hour. If there worried so much about there shareholders why don't the high up execs volunteer to take major pay cuts. Sure don't see that. If anything the lay off, lie and cheat to give themselves bigger bonuses at the end of the year.

Wasn't Gm a great example of that. Blame the union and then give themselves big bonuses with the bail out money that came right out of your pocket! And yet you still are so blind as to blame the unions for the auto industrys problems. Cant you see that its those board members and the politicians they pay for that are the real crooks in this country.
So, LLoyd? That would mean the majority will do the best for the company and try to make the most money which means that all of the shareholders benefit.

A company does not exist to provide jobs. It exists to make money and owes no-one anything. I know Warrior Princess Warren begs to differ on this point but it is how capitalism works.

[Lloyd Smale]

By the way HAPPY LABOR DAY to all the men and women in this country that toiled with there hands and backs to make this country what it is.

[jcwit]

And to all those who sat behind a desk using their mind and not their brawn to shape this great nation, may we once again MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

[jcwit]

Nobody forcing that WalMart worker to work there, if he/she doesn't like the pay scale, find a better paying job, simple as that.

[458mag]

Oh nooo. Lets force wallmart and mcdoodals and wendys, oh heck, all the fast food places to pay 25 bucks an hour and we can all set back and drink green bubalub and eat rainbow stew.

[Lloyd Smale]

its what I did. I wanted a good job so I joined the union and became lineman. Why would you defend someone with an ambition level that is satisfied with Walmart and then slam me for wanting more. I worked hard to make a living. Harder physically then most. I most certainly don't think I was overcompensated for doing it either. PI##ES off that some making twice what I do cant stand a union that did nothing but get me a fair wage level and a safe work enviorment. What it truly is is guys that make a 1ook a year and want there electricity for next to nothing and or there cars for next to nothing and want those workers to stuggle so they have it even better. Or another thing that just gets under my skin is a lineman or any other union employee that takes a job knowing full well its a union job and then crys about it or worse yet refuses to pay there dues and still reaps the rewards of those who do. Lower then a snake if you ask me! Like you said yourself NOBOBY FORCED THEM TO TAKE THAT JOB. If you don't like it go elsewhere. A union shop no more needs a anti union winer then a non union shop needs someone trying to shove a union down there throat. As to you that cry that prices are rasied on products because of unions ive showed you that its more of a problem with greed on the top then it is with the workers and bottom line is we are paying for the product you produce or design and pay the price you figure its worth. Why is your job or product a bit different. Why don't you take a 50 percent pay cut so we can by the product cheaper????
Nobody forcing that WalMart worker to work there, if he/she doesn't like the pay scale, find a better paying job, simple as that.

[458mag]

Oh nooo. Lets force wallmart and mcdoodals and wendys, oh heck, all the fast food places to pay 25 bucks an hour and we can all set back and drink green bubalub and eat rainbow stew.And by the way, any union that strikes that effects national security, railroad, flight controller, and I imagine power grid, would promptly be run by our great military. So for some fields of profession to even entertain the thought of strike is foolhardy at best ie traffic control union. Of course Pressedent Reagen fired those boys and will forever be the most evil dictator this country ever had if you listen to the union folks and I've heard many times from them.

[jcwit]

Why don't you take a 50 percent pay cut so we can by the product cheaper????

Because I retired over 15 years ago at the age of 58. Life is good. As is the non union products we have today.

Lloyd, check the country of manufacture on the back of your computer you're using.

[jcwit]

Lloyd, get over it, do you really need to be so bitter?

[Rick Hodges]

By the way HAPPY LABOR DAY to all the men and women in this country that toiled with there hands and backs to make this country what it is.

Oh Geeze, and I thought Labor Day was about women having kids? Go figure.... :kidding:

[DCP]

Labor Day in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) is a public holiday (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_the_United_States) celebrated on the first Monday in September. It honors the American labor movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_States) and the contributions that workers have made to the strength, prosperity, and well-being of their country.
Labor Day was promoted by the Central Labor Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labor_Union) and the Knights of Labor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Labor), who organized the first parade in New York City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City). After the Haymarket Massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Massacre) in Chicago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago) on May 4, 1886, U.S. President Grover Cleveland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland)feared that commemorating Labor Day on May 1 could become an opportunity to commemorate the affair. Therefore, in 1887, the United States holiday was established in September to support the Labor Day that the Knights favored.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Day#cite_note-1)
Canada's Labour Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Day#Canada) is also celebrated on the first Monday of September. More than 80 other countries celebrate International Workers' Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Workers%27_Day) on May 1 as their holiday dedicated to labor.


So those who sit at a desk have the day off because of Unions.

[jcwit]

And those who sit or sat at the desks helped create the jobs for both union & non union.

This is similar to the argument as to which is more important, upper management, the sales force, the purchasing dept., accounting, or labor.
If fact they all depend upon each other, take any of the team out and the corp. fails.

[DCP]

You may not rewrite history and the facts!!!

Unless your a liberal

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but its a very small percentage of white collar workers who actually created jobs. Maybe one in a 1000. Fact of life is most upper management think of there work force both blue collar and lower line white collar in about the same aspect as slave owners thought of there slaves. Im sure in many cases the slave owners even cared more then big business exects do. You are there to make them money period. Ill never convince any of you or never at least get you to admit I have points. All this aside enjoy the holiday the labor unions fought for. Even as an ex union worker I personally I think its pretty bad that companys that don't even deal with the unions shut there doors on labor day and on martin luthers birthday but make there workforce come in on veterans day. Something definitely is amiss in this country. No doubt though jcwit we do need white colar people sitting in the office. Thankfully theres people who like that. It kept me from having to do it myself. I would rather shovel @@@ in sewer plant outside then sit behind a computer all day in dockers! theres not enough money to get me to sell my sole and spend my life in a little office or cubicle and live in some CITY!!! You guys that do it are either warped or if your bright enough to know how terrible you have it and deserve a 1000 times more money then I made
And those who sit or sat at the desks helped create the jobs for both union & non union.

This is similar to the argument as to which is more important, upper management, the sales force, the purchasing dept., accounting, or labor.
If fact they all depend upon each other, take any of the team out and the corp. fails.

[starmac]

Union pay has never been a problem hurting industry. Union rules and the job description has at times hurt. I have always made more than union scale, at times much more, but as an employee never had to go by the job description of the unions, except for the short time I was in a union. Even when I worked in a union shop, I was a lowly maintenance mechanic, but had the title as a supervisor so I didn't have to join the union and could get paid accordingly, instead of having to work for union scale.

[jcwit]

Well I'm not a liberal.

So answer me this, take out upper management, purchasing, accounting, sales, and all the other desk jobs, now tell me who long the union or non union folks will be collecting a paycheck.

In fact, just take out only one of the above, including the worker. All are workers, some with their brains, some with their backs, all are needed, non are more important that the other.

Which is more important to you, your mouth or your bung hole.

[Lloyd Smale]

you bring up another big misconception these days. Was a time when all white colar workers were for the most part conservative and the working class were the liberals. Now go to a union meeting in the auto industry, mining industry, utility industry and ask the working class there opinions on things like gun control and see what you get for answers. then go to a college that is cranking out white collar men and women with business degrees and ask those yuppies what they think of gun control or abortion and see what answers you get. Probably more liberal white collar workers today then there are blue collar. Who do you see protesting your gun rights. Its liberal city people, surely not some union lineman or union miner or union steelworker. Id be interested to know how many union men and women are NRA members. I bet the percentage is pretty high. Ive said it before. The days of the democrats backing the working class and the republicans backing big business is over. NOBODY GIVES A @@@@ ABOUT THE MAN WITH DIRT UNDER HIS FINGERNAILS. How much help did the unions get from Obama? How many states went right to work while he was in office!!!!! Why is Lloyd bitter??? Because way to many are way to gullable and are drinking the koolaid. Big brother has you right where he wants you. Hes brainwashed you to turn your head while he rapes your country.
You may not rewrite history and the facts!!!

Unless your a liberal

[DCP]

I said you can thank the Unions for LABOR DAY and your day off

Shall we give honor to those that went to Canada, on Veterans Day or Memorial day, during Nam. Some would say they helped the cause. (not me)

[Lloyd Smale]

Starmac those days are in the past. I don't know what union jobs you were involved with but in the union I worked in if your boss told you to wash the floor you washed the floor. you did it for your union wage but job decriptions are pretty rare anymore and where they exist there so broad that they might as well be thrown out. I know that right now my brother in law and nephew work in the ore mines around here and are trained to do a number of different jobs and can be put where there needed from day to day. I think that's another big problem with arguing unions here. To many are still giving examples of how it worked 20 or 30 years ago. Ive heard storys from auto workers where a union mans machine was down and he sat in a chair for a month because they couldn't make him do another job. You aren't going to see that today.
Union pay has never been a problem hurting industry. Union rules and the job description has at times hurt. I have always made more than union scale, at times much more, but as an employee never had to go by the job description of the unions, except for the short time I was in a union. Even when I worked in a union shop, I was a lowly maintenance mechanic, but had the title as a supervisor so I didn't have to join the union and could get paid accordingly, instead of having to work for union scale.

[Lloyd Smale]

thinking like some here do youd sure thinks so.
I said you can thank the Unions for LABOR DAY and your day off

Shall we give honor to those that went to Canada, on Veterans Day or Memorial day, during Nam. Some would say they helped the cause. (not me)

[Lloyd Smale]

deleted because now im lowering myself to judging people I don't know like the rest here.
Well I'm not a liberal.

So answer me this, take out upper management, purchasing, accounting, sales, and all the other desk jobs, now tell me who long the union or non union folks will be collecting a paycheck.

In fact, just take out only one of the above, including the worker. All are workers, some with their brains, some with their backs, all are needed, non are more important that the other.

Which is more important to you, your mouth or your bung hole.

[jmort]

"How much help did the unions get from Obama?"

Yet the union drones licked his boots and made sure he got elected, twice. Actually a huge amount of money was funneled to the UAW through the GM taxpayer bend-over and a bundle went to inefficient union jobs, far less than promised, in the form of the "shovel ready projects." That was all prevailing wage/Davis/Bacon shovel-ready-projects.

[Lloyd Smale]

why don't you list all the states that went right to work while Obama was supposedly in the unions pocket

[jcwit]

Ya know Lloyd, not everyone is made for manual labor, and not putting that down, it's just the way it is. I was always a small person, went into the Army at 105 lbs. & just over 5 '. Not hardly qualified for hard labor, but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit.

After getting out of the service office work was always my forte, such was the way it was, and yes
I always made excellant money, even after my wife & I started our own business.

Lloyd, you need to take a deep breath, relax, do some reloading or shooting, & pay more attention to that Cross in your banner.

[jmort]

(sic) "why don't you list all the states that went right to work while Obama was supposedly in the unions pocket (sic)"

Those were decisions made by individual states. How is that relevant?

[starmac]

You could be right Lloyd, It has been a while since I have worked union (operating engineers) I did not intend to join at the time and even took a cut in pay. The company did buy my book, and paid my dues though. Things may have changed since that time, but the damage was done.
When I first got involved I was sitting on a track hoe, it also had to have an oiler, I had been capable of fueling and greasing my machine for several years., but we now had to have an employee whose job description was to work about 30 minutes a day, and was mad because I required him to at least stay awake.
Any water pump over 1 1/2 inches required a heavy equipment operator to run it, The iron workers welder required an equipment operator to check the oil, fill and crank it, who would have thunk it.
The list went on and on.
A compactor operator, which any ambitious 6 year old could run, drew the same pay as a finish blade hand with years of experience, why is that right.
It was next to impossible to negotiate your pay, infact was actually against our bylaws, you basically had to accept and work for union scale and draw the same pay as that guy that had a hard time mustering the ambition to actually make a hand on a roller.
These things coule have changed since I have been involved with the union, but like I said the damage was done. I have been out of the equipment game for a number of years, but still do occasionally drive a truck by the hour as a lowly hired hand, and the union guys whine constantly about my rate of pay, this still happens in todays world.

[Lloyd Smale]

when I started as a lineman we had 10 lineman in our shop. The lineman wouldn't do any ground work. that was the job for the groundman or an apprentice. By the time I retired we had 6 lineman in our shop and groundmen were a thing of the past. Lots of crying by lead men who had to pick up a shovel for the first time in 20 years. I was there at the beginning of the change so the ground work was just part of being a lead man to me. Kind of comical. Before when it was time to climb guys would disappear. when they knew if they weren't on the pole theyd be doing dirty work they all showed up with there climbing hooks on! :-D Things have changed everywhere. Even in the auto unions guys are trained for more then one job so they can be utilized properly. Im sure lots of these changes came from the horror storys that some here still base there opinions on. I know one thing. Sign up at our local as a lineman and you better be willing to work or your gone in a week.
You could be right Lloyd, It has been a while since I have worked union (operating engineers) I did not intend to join at the time and even took a cut in pay. The company did buy my book, and paid my dues though. Things may have changed since that time, but the damage was done.
When I first got involved I was sitting on a track hoe, it also had to have an oiler, I had been capable of fueling and greasing my machine for several years., but we now had to have an employee whose job description was to work about 30 minutes a day, and was mad because I required him to at least stay awake.
Any water pump over 1 1/2 inches required a heavy equipment operator to run it, The iron workers welder required an equipment operator to check the oil, fill and crank it, who would have thunk it.
The list went on and on.
A compactor operator, which any ambitious 6 year old could run, drew the same pay as a finish blade hand with years of experience, why is that right.
It was next to impossible to negotiate your pay, infact was actually against our bylaws, you basically had to accept and work for union scale and draw the same pay as that guy that had a hard time mustering the ambition to actually make a hand on a roller.
These things coule have changed since I have been involved with the union, but like I said the damage was done. I have been out of the equipment game for a number of years, but still do occasionally drive a truck by the hour as a lowly hired hand, and the union guys whine constantly about my rate of pay, this still happens in todays world.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes they were and Obama sure had the ability to step in and try to fight it but didn't. I would have to guess the unions asked him to do it. People here hate government intervention in there lives but stand back and let the government shove things down the throat of others as long as it doesn't effect them. here in Michigan and in some other states too right to work was shoved down our throats without even a vote. Its ok when the government is screwing someone else but a bit different when it effects you. How would you have liked it if the government came in and told you how to run your business? they had no right in any state to get involved in labor. All it was is a big example of how big business controls your elected officials be it on a national level or state. Big business bought right to work to save themselves money. They sure didn't do it for your benefit
(sic) "why don't you list all the states that went right to work while Obama was supposedly in the unions pocket (sic)"

Those were decisions made by individual states. How is that relevant?

[jmort]

Enough of this drivel. Unions promote the destruction of the Second Amendment, more abortion, more regulation, more taxation and anything else the liberals want to impose on me. Why pretend you are "pro-gun" or whatever, and espouse and support the most potent force behind the destruction of the Second Amendment. If your personal wealth is more important than the Second Amendment, Right to Life, low regulation/taxes, then crack on Union Brothers. Just don't pretend that unions do anything other than take care of their own.

[DCP]

Just don't pretend that unions do anything other than take care of their own.

Try try again
They got most EVERYONE THE DAY OFF today.
Please don't rewrite history and give all credit to eveyone that is do

[jcwit]

Whoop Dee Doo, they got us a day off, never was that big a deal to me when I worked.

Now wait, Union guys are more important then nonunion, or was I more important than union guys.

Now which is it??????????????????????????.

Who's the most Important.

Mayhap it's the surgeon that saves your life.

Or is it the guy who put all his savings on the line for a start up company and made a success of his business and employs a bunch of folks be they union or nonunion.

I know, I'm the most important of all! Ya right!!

[DCP]

Whoop Dee Doo, they got us a day off, never was that big a deal to me when I worked.

Thanks you finally got it

Now wait, Union guys are more important then nonunion, or was I more important than union guys.

Now which is it??????????????????????????.

Who's the most Important.

We are ALL important

Mayhap it's the surgeon that saves your life.

Or is it the guy who put all his savings on the line for a start up company and made a success of his business and employs a bunch of folks be they union or nonunion.

I know, I'm the most important of all! Ya right!!
Sorry you feel your more important than everyone else.

[hithard]

but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit

I'm still wondering about this one comment...cause billary comes to mind.

[jcwit]

Sorry you feel your more important than everyone else.

No, I got it 50 some years ago!

We are all important! That we are, at least while we are here.

So you actually think I feel I am more important than anyone else? Did You not catch the remark "Ya, right".

Few of us will even make that much of an impact 5/10 years after we're gone. We're like leaves in the wind, here today, gone tomorrow.

[jcwit]

I'm still wondering about this one comment...cause billary comes to mind.

We didn't have servers back then. I qualified for Officers training, but passed on it.

Think or feel however you wish, of litter concern to me. I didn't run to Canada.


Just wondering, did you serve?

[starnbar]

Well LLoyd I can attest to the fact that even if a machine was down nobody sat around for a month at Hamtramck or as commonly know as the old dodge main assy plant.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's good to know from someone that was actually there.
Well LLoyd I can attest to the fact that even if a machine was down nobody sat around for a month at Hamtramck or as commonly know as the old dodge main assy plant.

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe not more important but I think he feels like hes more intelligent and in a different league from the rest of us. I would say though that someone of such a high level of intelligence probably should be posting on the internet that he was privy of highly classified intelligence. I would have to think that if it were true hed surely know how to keep quiet about it. Sounds a bit james blondish to me. But then I don't know much of such things. Like 99 percent of us here I had to sweat for my paycheck.
I'm still wondering about this one comment...cause billary comes to mind. Quote Originally Posted by jcwit View Post

but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit

[Lloyd Smale]

this is what ive been trying to say. Its not your fellow working class man you need to fear its the ones that think your stupid and can be convinced that we are against each other so they can divide the middle class and take it out for good. Ill drink a beer with any man here. Im not better then a single one of you and never claimed to be. As far as intelligence goes. My wife says I have just enough to put up a good argument and get myself in trouble and shes probably right. My whole point here has been that we ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS, whether were union or non union. Whether we make our living stringing wire or selling cars. If we don't pull together there will be NO middle class left. Writings on the wall guys. Next time some politician or some exec from a big companys tells you teachers or fireman or lineman or car salesmen or small business owners or a factory worker are your enemy tell them to go to hell. tell then you know better.

[458mag]

"How much help did the unions get from Obama?"

Yet the union drones licked his boots and made sure he got elected, twice. Actually a huge amount of money was funneled to the UAW through the GM taxpayer bend-over and a bundle went to inefficient union jobs, far less than promised, in the form of the "shovel ready projects." That was all prevailing wage/Davis/Bacon shovel-ready-projects.
Thems was bovine scat shovelin jobs and they are still shovelin it to.

[dtknowles]

this is what ive been trying to say. Its not your fellow working class man you need to fear..............................My whole point here has been that we ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS, whether were union or non union. Whether we make our living stringing wire or selling cars. If we don't pull together there will be NO middle class left..................

Class distinctions

Welfare Class

Working Class

Middle Class

Upper Class

The Elites (1 percent)

You mentioned Working Class and Middle Class in your post. Do you consider them the same or are they different?

Would you care to place income and wealth levels on those classes? I know that is a bit of a dice roll since age plays such a big role in wealth and income as does family.

I imagine you consider the Working Classes and Middle Classes to be allies against the others. I don't hear you calling for class warfare like so many liberals so I am glad to here more of your thinking. The Working Classes and Middle Classes do need to defend themselves against the threats to their prosperity.

The rich will get richer, the welfare class will continue much the same but the Working Class and the Middle Class are getting poorer.

I wish the Upper Class and the Elites could understand that the short term benefits of driving the most possible profit out of their companies will hurt them in the long run. A well compensated Working Class and Middle Class will be simulative to the U.S. economy and will create a better educated and more capable Working Class. If they trickle down enough more of it will trickle back up.

One thing that companies could do more of that would be very beneficial is train more workers with higher levels of skills. Another thing that workers could do is to pursue more skills and be more productive.

Tim

[jcwit]

maybe not more important but I think he feels like hes more intelligent and in a different league from the rest of us. I would say though that someone of such a high level of intelligence probably should be posting on the internet that he was privy of highly classified intelligence. I would have to think that if it were true hed surely know how to keep quiet about it. Sounds a bit james blondish to me. But then I don't know much of such things. Like 99 percent of us here I had to sweat for my paycheck. Quote Originally Posted by jcwit View Post

but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit

From the tests I took for 2 days prior to being assigned to The Pentagon, yes I was intelligent enough to get the position I got.

I also was good enough to qualify for Officers Candidate School.

Was I better that anyone else, not likely.

It is what it is!

[smokeywolf]

I wish the Upper Class and the Elites could understand that the short term benefits of driving the most possible profit out of their companies will hurt them in the long run. A well compensated Working Class and Middle Class will be simulative to the U.S. economy and will create a better educated and more capable Working Class. If they trickle down enough more of it will trickle back up.

Tim

I think, since the early to mid '70s, the top .5 percentile have adopted the notion that money and profits should be gotten while the getting is good. And, because many of them know that most CEOs care only about the next bonus or at most up to the end of their contract, screw the long run.

With regard to "trickle down"; unless you are one of those who wishes to ignore the fact that Reagan was just a tool of the uber wealthy, you know that the only "trickling" that takes place in the "trickle down economics" model, is money and assets "trickling" into Swiss and Cayman Island bank accounts.

smokeywolf

[jcwit]

he was privy of highly classified intelligence.

That was a dumb statement, where did I say it had anything to do with classified intelligence?

[jcwit]

I would have to think that if it were true hed surely know how to keep quiet about it.

I'm fairly sure after 50+ years its long since declassified, and if not have I released any secrets to anyone?

I took an oath not to, and still stand by it.

[Oreo]

My ears were burning.

[TXGunNut]

My ears were burning.


No idea why, they've forgotten all about you. Thanks for dropping by and reminding us what this thread was about. ;-)

[Hannibal]

Cookie, anyone?

[Lloyd Smale]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jcwit http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3368432#post3368432) but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit
That was a dumb statement, where did I say it had anything to do with classified intelligence?

I would think that if you were privy to classified stuff the government wouldn't want you running around saying you were.

[Lloyd Smale]

I too was asked to stay in the Coast Guard after 8 years of service and go to ocs. had the recommendations and passed the test. Big deal. I had personal problems in my life because of my youngest child and got out. Bottom line is I sure don't think that makes me intelligent. Ive seen a lot of officers that were far from brilliant.
From the tests I took for 2 days prior to being assigned to The Pentagon, yes I was intelligent enough to get the position I got.

I also was good enough to qualify for Officers Candidate School.

Was I better that anyone else, not likely.

It is what it is!

[jcwit]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jcwit http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3368432#post3368432) but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit

I would think that if you were privy to classified stuff the government wouldn't want you running around saying you were.

Like I said, it was 50+ years ago that I worked at The Pentagon, that a problem for you to understand?

Why do you have a need to belittle me, just what is your issue towards me, sorry I was the one that got a cush job, wasn't thru any effort of mine, that's where the military put me, don't like it, don't know what to tell you. It is what it is, and once again it was 50+ years ago, most everyone I worked with are dead by now.

So far you are only the 2nd person who has belittled me for my service, thanks a lot.

Frankly in the grand scheme of things it makes little to no difference what you think, or for that matter what I think as well.

For Heavens sake why don't you just let it drop before it eats you all up!

I will add Thank You for Your Service, think you can return the same to me??

[Lloyd Smale]

this is getting boring. All I can say is that the younger ones here are going to see it before they die and there children are surely going to suffer the loss of the middle class in this country. Keep being cheerleaders for the rich. They appreciate it!! There smiling all the way to the bank. Don't forget the part you played in it by passively watching it happen.

[jcwit]

Keep being cheerleaders for the rich. They appreciate it!! There smiling all the way to the bank.

Ever get a job from a poor person?

[Love Life]

So, are we still buying Oreo cookies or not?

[Lloyd Smale]

wife made me an oreo cookie cheese cake for my birthday today so I guess I am.

[Lloyd Smale]

no problem with them making money as long as the workforce is fairly compensated and by fairly I mean in agreement with both labor and management not what some rich manager thinks is fair. What happened to the American dream of getting a job, having a car, buying your own house. Are we willing to be the last generation that is allowed that dream.
Ever get a job from a poor person?

[Love Life]

Happy Birthday!

[458mag]

You believe Reagen was just a tool for the wealthy. Seems to Me, and I do try to stay informed on current as well as past events, that Reagen was instrumental in bringing down the berlin wall and calling out communist socialism for what it was "EVIL". He also stepped up the war on drugs. But I can understand why you union guys hate him. You are for liberal socialism and from some of the post I've seen you most likely enjoy your recreational high. Carl Marx hated the wealthy and got enough people to buy into his hatedred that brought us the ussr all because of those rich folks who had more than them. Keep listening to what your union bosses tell you. They got all the answers

[sparky45]

no problem with them making money as long as the workforce is fairly compensated and by fairly I mean in agreement with both labor and management not what some rich manager thinks is fair. What happened to the American dream of getting a job, having a car, buying your own house. Are we willing to be the last generation that is allowed that dream.

And you think Trumka is a fair arbiter for "business's sake". I'll bet you a steak dinner that Mr. Trumka ONLY cares what happens to Unions, because he earns his money off the backs of hard working men and women and never, NEVER see's his income effected by lay offs or strikes. Look in the dictionary under parasite, Trumka's picture is there for everyone to see.

[sparky45]

this is getting boring. All I can say is that the younger ones here are going to see it before they die and there children are surely going to suffer the loss of the middle class in this country. Keep being cheerleaders for the rich. They appreciate it!! There smiling all the way to the bank. Don't forget the part you played in it by passively watching it happen.

Dimocrats have already, almost eliminated, the middle class. They call themselves Dimocrats, but they are really Socialists in drag.

[dtknowles]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jcwit http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3368432#post3368432) but I was highly intelligent, so I got a desk job at The Pentagon with a highly classified unit

I would think that if you were privy to classified stuff the government wouldn't want you running around saying you were.

The government does not have a problem with people indicating that they have elevated classified data access permissions. It is sometimes a question on job applications. "Have you ever had a secret or top secret clearance?" "Have you ever been denied a secret or top secret clearance?" There are Clearance Levels that are secret and do not even have names or so I have been told and to divulge that would be a violation.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

thanks pal.
Happy Birthday!

[jcwit]

The government does not have a problem with people indicating that they have elevated classified data access permissions. It is sometimes a question on job applications. "Have you ever had a secret or top secret clearance?" "Have you ever been denied a secret or top secret clearance?" There are Clearance Levels that are secret and do not even have names or so I have been told and to divulge that would be a violation.

Tim

What names??

LOL

[starmac]

I don't have a clue what all the different clearances are called. I do know that you are asked if you have certain clearances for different jobs. Several years ago I was asked if I had a Q clearance, I responded by saying I didn't even know what it was. lol I was promptly told that I was not qualified for the position, which was running a backhoe. lol

[jcwit]

So, are we still buying Oreo cookies or not?

I just had some cream filled cookies, store brand, no idea who made them?

[jcwit]

I don't have a clue what all the different clearances are called. I do know that you are asked if you have certain clearances for different jobs. Several years ago I was asked if I had a Q clearance, I responded by saying I didn't even know what it was. lol I was promptly told that I was not qualified for the position, which was running a backhoe. lol

With a very quick google search. These are the more common.


http://fedcas.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Federal-Suitability-Security-Clearance-Chart.pdf

[jcwit]

I note Lloyd think little of my service as he has never thanked me for the same.

Class act on his part!

[dtknowles]

I don't have a clue what all the different clearances are called. I do know that you are asked if you have certain clearances for different jobs. Several years ago I was asked if I had a Q clearance, I responded by saying I didn't even know what it was. lol I was promptly told that I was not qualified for the position, which was running a backhoe. lol

Ever wonder what you would be digging up!

Tim

[starmac]

Ever wonder what you would be digging up!

Tim

Ha ha, No I didn't, but you do have a point. lol
The reason for the clearance was because of the area (on a base) that the work was on, I doubt if it was for actually digging something classified up, but when working with the govt. you never really know.

[smokeywolf]

You believe Reagen was just a tool for the wealthy. Seems to Me, and I do try to stay informed on current as well as past events, that Reagen was instrumental in bringing down the berlin wall and calling out communist socialism for what it was "EVIL". He also stepped up the war on drugs. But I can understand why you union guys hate him. You are for liberal socialism and from some of the post I've seen you most likely enjoy your recreational high. Carl Marx hated the wealthy and got enough people to buy into his hatedred that brought us the ussr all because of those rich folks who had more than them. Keep listening to what your union bosses tell you. They got all the answers

First of all, I'm not pro-union. I'm just not anti-union. They are still a necessary evil.

Secondly, when it came to economic policy, yes; I believe he was a tool of the super wealthy. That is not to say he didn't do some good things. I liked his stance on defense and defense spending. He was one of better governors that California had.

I think the USSR pretty much imploded and I think it would have done so whether Reagan was in the White House or most any other conservative.
One of the most significant acts against the American people for which he was responsible was the Immigration and Control Act of 1986 which granted amnesty to something close to 3 million criminal aliens.

If you had read a representative sampling of my posts you would see that I am as conservative as most and more conservative than quite a few on this forum.

As far as doing what the union wanted me to do. In the 33 years that I was a member of the union I attended a grand total of 2 meetings. The first, because I was new and had never attended one. The second, because one of the topics dealt directly with my retirement.
In all the time I was a union member, I never once voted for a democrat candidate for a State or Federal office. I think in the 42 years that I have been voting, I voted for one dem in a local election and I think that was before I joined a union.

You sir make assumptions and cast aspersions with no rational basis.

One more thing, as you are so enamored of the late Ronald Reagan, and like to sing his praises while slinging false accusations at those who did not see him as perfect, you should probably learn to spell his name.

[smokeywolf]

Oh! 458mag, if you are implying by this, "you most likely enjoy your recreational high" that I illegally use controlled substances. What you are doing strongly resembles "bearing false witness against thy neighbor". Good luck when you are called on to atone for that.

smokeywolf

[dtknowles]

Oh! 458mag, if you are implying by this, "you most likely enjoy your recreational high" that I illegally use controlled substances. What you are doing strongly resembles "bearing false witness against thy neighbor". Good luck when you are called on to atone for that.

smokeywolf

While I think the comment was stupid, it took is as speculation not a statement of fact so it was not actually "bearing false witness against thy neighbor". A witness can speculate all he wants but the jury would be advised to disregard and the witness would be counseled to keep their testimony to the facts. If the witness continues to speculate he might be found in contempt.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Ha ha, No I didn't, but you do have a point. lol
The reason for the clearance was because of the area (on a base) that the work was on, I doubt if it was for actually digging something classified up, but when working with the govt. you never really know.

You can never be sure what might need to be kept secret, even the locations of sewers could be classified.

Tim

[Love Life]

I note Lloyd think little of my service as he has never thanked me for the same.

Class act on his part!

I never knew that a thank you was required.

[jcwit]

I never knew that a thank you was required.

Never said it was a requirement, sorry you took it that way!

Note my post #190.

Not required, but sure nice to get, should we return to how it was in the 1960's & 70's?

[smokeywolf]

While I think the comment was stupid, it took is as speculation not a statement of fact so it was not actually "bearing false witness against thy neighbor". A witness can speculate all he wants but the jury would be advised to disregard and the witness would be counseled to keep their testimony to the facts. If the witness continues to speculate he might be found in contempt.

Tim

Very well Tim, you are right. He was not bearing false witness, he was instead making a false accusation.

[dtknowles]

Very well Tim, you are right. He was not bearing false witness, he was instead making a false accusation.

A minor technicality, he still should have not said it but it actually reflects more poorly on him than you.

Tim

[jonp]

I just had some cream filled cookies, store brand, no idea who made them?
Hydrox?

[TXGunNut]

Been looking for Hydrox, pretty curious about them.
I have one of them secret jobs now. I'm bound by a social media policy so ridiculous that in this format I'll deny having a job to keep from trying to comply with that silliness. No biggie. Pays pretty decent, I live simple and I'm not a slave to my ego. Most people, including some of my bosses, think they know what I do but really don't have much more than a clue. When I got hurt awhile back they got a good scare and treat me a little better, lol.
I'll never hesitate to thank a vet. Doesn't matter if you served on the front lines, behind the steam table in a chow line or in an office in the Pentagon. You did what you were asked to do and that's all that matters to me. It's funny nowadays how some folks that act like they saw a lot of "action" never did and the guys who saw the elephant will generally find something else to talk about. I understand that without support, logistics, admin and all the other unsung military jobs the warriors would never see action and if they somehow did they wouldn't make it home.

[jcwit]

Thank You!

[Lloyd Smale]

I spend 8 years in the military. Did you thank me? Did I think you owed me a thank you? Even so id say its a step up from a civil service job or a civilian job in an industry that sells to the military. They call those jobs not serving your country. Just the fact you consider yourself so special you need a pat on the back lowers opinion of you. You said you made big bucks doing it so id say you were compensated without my praise. I will thank you for the years you put in the military SERVEING your country but not for years you pulled down 6 figure income for a job you probably got because this country gave you GI bill to go to school. I think you owe the country a thank you not the other way around. My tax money paid for that education.
I note Lloyd think little of my service as he has never thanked me for the same.

Class act on his part!

[jcwit]

I spend 8 years in the military. Did you thank me? Did I think you owed me a thank you? Even so id say its a step up from a civil service job or a civilian job in an industry that sells to the military. They call those jobs not serving your country. Just the fact you consider yourself so special you need a pat on the back lowers opinion of you. You said you made big bucks doing it so id say you were compensated without my praise. I will thank you for the years you put in the military SERVEING your country but not for years you pulled down 6 figure income for a job you probably got because this country gave you GI bill to go to school. I think you owe the country a thank you not the other way around. My tax money paid for that education.

Lloyd, for crying out loud, try carefully reading post #190, in particular the last line of that post, it clearly states a Thank you from me.

As far as using the GI bill, never did, I did take 1 college course in my 20's, Accounting they called it IIRC, I paid for it out of my own pocket, no help fom anyone, I aced it BTW, perfect grade in all papers & tests. Ya, I know, tooting my own horn again, but facts don't lie.

Just so you know, never used the GI bill for anything, made my own way all along, even own my own home, modest tho it is.

Lloyd, take a look at where your assumptions are putting you.

[458mag]

I believe in guilt by association. I also believe that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, welllllll. I don't judge anyone. But I do wonder about whats more important to them. I guess its their wallet for some folks.

[jcwit]

What is of most importance to me personally?
#1 My faith in my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
#2 Being happy with my lot in life which also leads to the fact of being successful, they are in fact one and the same in my opinion. Along with this goes my family, neither one in #2 out ranks the other.


There you have it folks!

[458mag]

Ditto that jcwit

[sparky45]

So, are we still buying Oreo cookies or not?
Hydro are going to surface again, just hold your horses.
BTW, Hydrox are a superior cookie, IMO.

[Four-Sixty]

HYDROX ARE COMING BACK? YEAH!!!

I agree they were much better than oreos!!!

[dtknowles]

..................................My tax money paid for that education.

Regarding the GI bill, yes, someone's tax money pays just like someone's tax money pays military salaries but service members do not need to thank the tax payer when they claim their pay or benefits. The GI bill is not like a Pell Grant, it is not an "entitlement" program, it is an earned benefit.

Tim

[dtknowles]

......................Fact of life is most upper management think of there work force both blue collar and lower line white collar in about the same aspect as slave owners thought of there slaves. Im sure in many cases the slave owners even cared more then big business exects do............................

I don't find this statement accurate, I have worked closely with members of upper management of at least 8 companies. They all cared about the health and happiness of the work force. They actually enjoyed it when they could do nice things for the workers. I have worked with two kinds of people in Company Leadership, the first were the people who started work for the company at entry level jobs and the second were the Leaders who actually started the company. I have not worked with leadership that was imported at top levels and did not work their way up but I know that those types do exist and might have a different attitude. I will tell you the type who worked their way up can be very harsh and do have some distain for slackers or people with little ambition who just want an easy job and a fat paycheck but they do not consider any workers, slaves. They would gladly dump the slackers, they don't wish evil upon the slackers they just have not use for them.

Have you ever attended an executive staff meeting? How many corporate Directors, Vice Presidents, and Presidents have you had long conversations with? Have you ever had a beer with any of these executive types? On what do you base your opinions?

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

never said it was an entilement or charity. I used it myself and am not ashamed. My point was in your job (not your service time) even if you were privy to top secret info, nobody owed you any kind of a thank you. You got paid well for what you did and I doubt you were risking your life for the country. What angered me about your posts is your self praise and bragging. I don't think anyone here cares how much money you made or how important you figured your job was. You came blazing criticizing union workers and about claimed that they aren't worth what there paid but somehow your worth a salary that's twice what I made sitting in your air conditioned and heated office. You don't have a clue how hard I worked or how much knowledge is needed to do my job. Just like you dont have a real clue how hard some stealworker or assembly line worker works.

Your like most others and listen to examples that happened 20 years ago and sterotype all union people because there was a few duds in the mix. Bottom line is theres hard workers and workers that do just what they have to in every business in this country be it union or non union. Theres people in union and non union jobs that are very proud of there work ethic and it PI###S me off when some know it all thinks he knows just how someone else works when they never even met them or how easy some job is that they've never worked or how much intelegence it takes to do it. If I made a mistake at work a man could die and in reality I was probably very much underpaid to have that on my shoulder.

It just gets under my skin that every one of these union arguements that pops up here theres a group of idiots that jump in saying all union guys are screw offs that hide behind the union and get paid way to much. Or claim that because your a union worker your magicaly some liberal. So some of my anger with you is probably unfair because before we even started this back and forth the idiots came out and it looked like you were just another cheerleader. maybe you didn't mean to come off like that but you did. I consider myself a good Christian and get angry with myself when I let people get under my skin and start lashing out.

Like I said in other posts I just tire or arguing with the blind that don't see that middle class America, be they union or non union are on the same side or at least better get it into there mind that they are before its to late. I have union friends that work in my old job that work in the paper mills here and work in the mines. I have non union friends that work ror the city, are lumberjacks, are clergy, small business owners, bankers, lawyers and doctors. Funny thing is in the 59 years ive been on this earth I cant remember one time when any one of those people claimed to be better then another or called another out because he didn't earn his money. As a matter of fact my friends and those that know what my job was like all say I was way underpaid for what I had to do. Its only places like this that it happens and ill tell you why. Because if you came up to me in person and called me a lazy shiftless union lineman id introduce you to my buddy whos also my doctor. Its easy to be a keyboard commando.

Now this time I really am going to leave this. Im pushing the boundry of how a Christian should act. So if any of the idiots that are full of nothing but hate want to keep bashing go for it. If it somehow makes you feel superior to someone else and that's what you want then have at it.

[southpaw]

My problem with unions isn't with the workers, its the management. When they were started they worked for the workers and made huge improvements. Now it seems to be nothing more than a place for them to make 6,7,8 figures a year. Not doing much more than collecting the dues. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people making that much money. Some choose to make their living using their mind while others choose to use their back. It would be nice if they were pushing a company forward rather than being a parasite o one.

We have so many things in place now (thanks to the unions no doubt) such as osha that it seems that they may have worked themselves out of a job. There are plenty of rules and laws in place. The only thing I see left for them to do is fight for more money and benefits.

Jerry Jr.

[starmac]

I have never had a personal problemwith union hands, except for those that think nonunion hands are beneath them. There is a few around like that. I don't even have a problem with union management making big bucks.
My dad was a union carpenter and job super all his life.

I do have a problem with union dues (beeeg money) being used to back the dems.
I also have a problem with public service unions, not allowing slackers, thieves or tetotallers to be fired at the publics expense. These things are a fact of life, and are practices used today, not 20 years ago.
As far as the practices used 20 years ago in the construction trades, it is what it was, and they probably have changed some of them, but if they have it was to save the themselves, because they have been losing ground in many states for that long and longer.

[jcwit]

You came blazing criticizing union workers and about claimed that they aren't worth what there paid but somehow your worth a salary that's twice what I made sitting in your air conditioned and heated office.

Please point out just where I did this? If you read closely I always stated everyone was important, it' a team effort, but yes some do get paid more than others.

See post #151, #155, #163

All positions are important, some require the use of the mind, some require the use of brawn. Nothing wrong with either, but you seem to have an issue with it, at least when it comes to me, ah well, so be it.

[jcwit]

Lloyd you have no idea how I worked, or exactly what I did or did not do. There times when shipments were not ready at the end of the day and the hourly workers "God bless them would not work over" myself and a few other office workers, top management incl.,finished filling & packing & loading the trailer so the driver could leave. Times this took till after midnight or even later, but I was back behind my desk at 8am in the morning.

[starmac]

How about snickers bars, not much more to argue about as far as oreos go. Time for a change.

[jcwit]

in reality I was probably very much underpaid to have that on my shoulder.

So I guess you seem to think highly of yourself, right?

[BAGTIC]

A lot of people confuse direct salaries with company expenses. In addition to salaries company expenses can include among other things insurance, vacation, retirement, etc. In some instances the 'benefits' can actually exceed 100% of salaries. Then there are all the expenses involved in complying with government regulations and reporting requirements.

[jcwit]

Just like you dont have a real clue how hard some stealworker or assembly line worker works.


Oh, Really, I don't?

I remember seeing my dad get up at 4 in the morning to milk the cows, while mom fed the chickens, dad ran the separator while mom fixed breakfast, he ate and went to work, coming home after 8 to 10 hours operating a heat tread room, covered in sweat in the summer, and it wasn't time to rest, but time to go milk the cows again and separate the milk, slop the hogs, and finish the farm chores, eat supper and collapse. then get up and start all over for the next day. He did this 6 days a week for I know not how many years.

He was the 3rd man the founder of the company hired, he used to go out just to visit the factory after he retired, by that time they employed 100's of workers. The last time he went out to visit which was a month before he died, he couldn't find the owner in the office, secretary said he was in the factory somewhere. He found the owner, with his suit coat hung over a piece of machinery, laying in a pool of oil, white shirt and tie still on, helping to fix a broken down machine.

How do I know all this? I'm the one who drove dad out to the factory, and helped him around.

Ya, I have no idea about line work, nor upper management responsibilities, nor how they care about their workers.

BS

[dtknowles]

never said it was an entilement or charity. I used it myself and am not ashamed. My point was in your job (not your service time) even if you were privy to top secret info, nobody owed you any kind of a thank you. You got paid well for what you did and I doubt you were risking your life for the country. What angered me about your posts is your self praise and bragging. I don't think anyone here cares how much money you made or how important you figured your job was. You came blazing criticizing union workers and about claimed that they aren't worth what there paid but somehow your worth a salary that's twice what I made sitting in your air conditioned and heated office. You don't have a clue how hard I worked or how much knowledge is needed to do my job. Just like you dont have a real clue how hard some stealworker or assembly line worker works.

Your like most others and listen to examples that happened 20 years ago and sterotype all union people because there was a few duds in the mix. Bottom line is theres hard workers and workers that do just what they have to in every business in this country be it union or non union. Theres people in union and non union jobs that are very proud of there work ethic and it PI###S me off when some know it all thinks he knows just how someone else works when they never even met them or how easy some job is that they've never worked or how much intelegence it takes to do it. If I made a mistake at work a man could die and in reality I was probably very much underpaid to have that on my shoulder.

It just gets under my skin that every one of these union arguements that pops up here theres a group of idiots that jump in saying all union guys are screw offs that hide behind the union and get paid way to much. Or claim that because your a union worker your magicaly some liberal. So some of my anger with you is probably unfair because before we even started this back and forth the idiots came out and it looked like you were just another cheerleader. maybe you didn't mean to come off like that but you did. I consider myself a good Christian and get angry with myself when I let people get under my skin and start lashing out.

Like I said in other posts I just tire or arguing with the blind that don't see that middle class America, be they union or non union are on the same side or at least better get it into there mind that they are before its to late. I have union friends that work in my old job that work in the paper mills here and work in the mines. I have non union friends that work ror the city, are lumberjacks, are clergy, small business owners, bankers, lawyers and doctors. Funny thing is in the 59 years ive been on this earth I cant remember one time when any one of those people claimed to be better then another or called another out because he didn't earn his money. As a matter of fact my friends and those that know what my job was like all say I was way underpaid for what I had to do. Its only places like this that it happens and ill tell you why. Because if you came up to me in person and called me a lazy shiftless union lineman id introduce you to my buddy whos also my doctor. Its easy to be a keyboard commando.

Now this time I really am going to leave this. Im pushing the boundry of how a Christian should act. So if any of the idiots that are full of nothing but hate want to keep bashing go for it. If it somehow makes you feel superior to someone else and that's what you want then have at it.

Lloyd, you talking to me or JCWit. You seem to make references to both of our comments, I was never in the Military, but I guess you really want to be done with this thread so I guess it is not important and it is fine, we can let it go.

Tim

[jcwit]

Lloyd, what is with this calling members here names, frankly I think there are very few here and non in this thread who are idiots, mayhap you need to look up the definition?


Im pushing the boundry of how a Christian should act.

I think that boundary was crossed some time ago, but that is just MO.

[farmerjim]

How about snickers bars, not much more to argue about as far as oreos go. Time for a change.

Never liked either one.

[smokeywolf]

A lot of people confuse direct salaries with company expenses. In addition to salaries company expenses can include among other things insurance, vacation, retirement, etc. In some instances the 'benefits' can actually exceed 100% of salaries. Then there are all the expenses involved in complying with government regulations and reporting requirements.

Could you please cite at least 2 examples or instances of this happening.

As a department head, I had to figure materials and labor expenses on projects and for my department. For skilled trades, within a few percent, benefits were figured at 30% of hourly rate or in cases of salaried employees, prorated weekly pay.

[458mag]

I love oreos and I love me some snickers to and I personally don't care where either or made.

[458mag]

Sorry us idjuts upset some folks. Really nothin to be upset about its just differences of opinions. I will still eat oreos with a glass of milk and if anyone wants to judge me for that then so be it. I DONT CARE. Now I need to put on my made in china sneekers and get in my mostly made in mexico avalanche and go down to the middle eastern owned and operated service station and put some refined arab gas in my tank.

[jcwit]

Sorry us idjuts upset some folks. Really nothin to be upset about its just differences of opinions. I will still eat oreos with a glass of milk and if anyone wants to judge me for that then so be it. I DONT CARE. Now I need to put on my made in china sneekers and get in my mostly made in mexico avalanche and go down to the middle eastern owned and operated service station and put some refined arab gas in my tank.

LOL, ain't that the truth!

[dtknowles]

Could you please cite at least 2 examples or instances of this happening.

As a department head, I had to figure materials and labor expenses on projects and for my department. For skilled trades, within a few percent, benefits were figured at 30% of hourly rate or in cases of salaried employees, prorated weekly pay.

I would consider 100% a big stretch and would not be average, could be possible if company benefits are very generous and paid 100 percent by the company, medical, pension, 401K match, vacation, sick time, maternity leave, training, college tuition reimbursement, not likely someone would hit all the buckets each year and year after year.

When estimating jobs I did use 100% factor on labor but it included overhead as well as fringe and I hoped it had some slop too.

Tim

[Rick Hodges]

Don't forget to figure in FICA, Workers Comp. and Unemployment insurance. Those costs vary, but the insurance is quite high in Michigan.