Water drop

[Tenbender]

I'm impressed with water drop. All except the sizing. I might break the handle off my sizer there so hard.
This was my first try. Some 358 , 125 gr . Going to use them in my 2" pistol. I had a BHN of 17 right out of the water. :mad:

[243winxb]

Not how its done. See Lymans FAQ
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

[sparky45]

Are you saying that you CAN'T harden a Lead bullet by water dropping? Me thinks there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[243winxb]

Dropping from the mold into water gives mixed results. Bullets that stick in the mould have cooled to much when they hit the water. Accuracy is better with air cooled bullets of the correct alloy. My post above is to show sizing after heat treating/water dropping makes the bullet soft again on the surface. Heat treating, done correctly, hardens the bullets to there core.

[duckey]

I am a tad confused now. I've heard water drip ping can gain youb1 bnh +-, never heard it can soften the outside of a bullet. Heat treating, never tried it but seems to add a few more steps in the process of reloading, to each his own. I do know that I've leaded up a barrel with un-water dropped bullets, after water dropping the issue was reduced 10 fold. Just trying to clarify/learn.

[Char-Gar]

Some years back, cast bullet rifle shooters discovered they could temper/harden free wheel weight metal to match in hardness the more expensive alloys made from combining metals. They did this by heating the bullets in the oven and quenching in water. This produced a satisfactory substitute for the far more expensive linotype metal.

Then along came some folks who decided that dropping the bullets into a bucket of water was quicker than oven tempering. This works, but did not provide the uniform hardness like oven tempering. Still good enough for anything but critical accuracy.

Next up were the guys who thought "water dropping" was the cure all for everything including some forms of VD and male pattern baldness. So everything was dropped into a bucket of water and that is where we are today. Now for what I understand the truth to be on the subject at hand;

1. There is very little need for bullets this hard in rifle loads unless you are in the high end of usable velocity with such bullets.

2. There is no need for bullets this hard for any handgun use.

3. You can bust a lube size machine if you don't size those hard bullets ASAP. I have done that very thing.

4. Water quenching does alloy you to handle bullets quicker than if you allow them to air cool.

What little hardening I do is by the oven method for high end rifle loads.

If a fellow is using water dropping to prevent leading then he is doing a whole bunch of things wrong if that is what it takes.

[bangerjim]

Can't add anymore to that! Right on target.

I gave up on heat treating (NOT water dropping from the mold) and just mix the Bhn I want from the alloys being air cooled.....as I PC everything. Reheating to 400F to bake the PC eliminates most of the gained the hardness.

And very few people really even need those uber-hard boolits. FIT IS KING today. Too bad so many people get lead astray by reading the "Lyman #2" specs in all the old (and new) casting books.

But use what you think you need. I am perfectly happy with 10-12Bhn + PC.

banger

[Outpost75]

Some years back, cast bullet rifle shooters discovered they could temper/harden free wheel weight metal to match in hardness the more expensive alloys made from combining metals. They did this by heating the bullets in the oven and quenching in water. This produced a satisfactory substitute for the far more expensive linotype metal.

Then along came some folks who decided that dropping the bullets into a bucket of water was quicker than oven tempering. This works, but did not provide the uniform hardness like oven tempering. Still good enough for anything but critical accuracy.

Next up were the guys who thought "water dropping" was the cure all for everything including some forms of VD and male pattern baldness. So everything was dropped into a bucket of water and that is where we are today. Now for what I understand the truth to be on the subject at hand;

1. There is very little need for bullets this hard in rifle loads unless you are in the high end of usable velocity with such bullets.

2. There is no need for bullets this hard for any handgun use.

3. You can bust a lube size machine if you don't size those hard bullets ASAP. I have done that very thing.

4. Water quenching does alloy you to handle bullets quicker than if you allow them to air cool.

What little hardening I do is by the oven method for high end rifle loads.

If a fellow is using water dropping to prevent leading then he is doing a whole bunch of things wrong if that is what it takes.

+1 on this^^^^^^

Most leading is caused by bullets being too hard, so that they can't upset to seal the bore if they don't already fit.

The only purpose for "hard" bullets is for commercial casters who want to have a uniform source of commercially alloy in ton heat lots, that cast easily, and make attractive shiny bullets which are not damaged in shipping.

It is all eyewash and mental masturbation. I do the majority of my shooting with 1:30 tin/lead and only rarely, such as for rifle loads over 2000 fps to cycle my Garand, use anything harder, and even for that purpose a BHN of 15-16 is fully adequate.

[turtlezx]

did you try shooting unsized boolits ?? would save a step and may lead the barrel less

[popper]

Char-gar is correct for everything but M.P.B. WD will give highest BHN but it is not uniform throughout the boolit - can cause problems. Not everyone has a stash of lino or the $$ to buy it. Oven heat treating will give decent results from a cheap alloy IF it has some As & Sb in it. We use BHN as an indicator of psi handling capability of alloy. Just remember, if it bumps the base it may strip in the rifling or slump on the nose. The alloy and load need to be matched. Sizing down a lot is tough on HTd, a spot of lube on the first few can make it easier. Recently sized some high 30ish BHN with no problem - 312 to 309. And I can hammer the alloy flat with no fractures.

[mdi]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't need bullets harder than about 15-16 BHN and those are shot in my rifles. I normally use something in the 10-12 BHN range for all my handgun bullets, even magnum loads. I haven't tried water dropping in 22+ years of casting, so I really have no opinion except it ain't necessary for me to shoot accurate leading free boolits...

[dragon813gt]

I water drop for convenience more than anything. Allows for handling of them right away. I don't use it as a means to harden them.

[gwpercle]

Water dropping hardens, cold working the boolit ( sizing ) softens the areas sized...so you are almost back to square one. Water dropping only really works if you do not size them.
Sizing hardened boolits has broken more than one lube-sizer.
Took me a long time to figure out fit is more important than hardness and way too much importance is placed on hardness for handgun boolits. My cast loads have gotten better with a softer alloy.
Gary

[bangerjim]

I water drop for convenience more than anything. Allows for handling of them right away. I don't use it as a means to harden them.


Same here. Having cool boolits is......well......COOL! Dumping them (not in water) while still hot can damage a bunch of them. I drop in a 9x12 cake pan with a terry towel in the bottom and water within 1/4" of the top. Protects them from damage while still semi-molten and damageable.

If I size (B4 PC), it is within an hour, so never any broken handles. My mix is for ~10-12 Bhn air hardened. My standard mix ends up at ~18 after a few days. But PC'ing at 400F for 10 min brings them down to where I want.

banger

[OnHoPr]

Since you are using them in a 2" pistol and real accuracy isn't a criteria. Water drop then dry, then put them in a zip lock with a few drops of thinned Lee alocks, let dry for a hour or so then size before the actual hardening starts to take its process.

[Yodogsandman]

Accuracy is possible with a 2" barrel. The sight radius is shorter so, it's harder to be a good shot with one.

Size within 24 hours and you should have no problems. I prefer to oven heat treat and that allows for sizing beforehand and lubing after heat treating. With either heat treating method, boolits will age harden quickly for about 5 days and then stabilize.

I have seen no evidence of the surface area disturbed during sizing and after heat treating being "soft" from work softening. But, if I need to size more than .001", I'll size before oven heat treating.

[facetious]

Years a go I got in to playing with HT'ing and what I came up with for sizing was a Lee push through sizer lapped to the size I wanted and then lapped the lube sizer die just a little bigger. after casting and WD'ing I would size them in the push through right away and put them away to age harden. When lubing in the sizer/luber all I was doing was seating the gas check and lubing that way the boolit was not work softened.

[Ola]

Has someone tried dropping the bullets to something else than water? Like a liquid bullet lube or some coating material?

"Instant PC-bullets: just cast and load".. that would be nice :)

[Teddy (punchie)]

Has someone tried dropping the bullets to something else than water? Like a liquid bullet lube or some coating material?

"Instant PC-bullets: just cast and load".. that would be nice :)

I was thinking along the same lines. Have a some gear lube, I was thinking if I can drop them in it and like seasoning a cast iron skillet need to make sure I don't make too much smoke or fire. I know oil is use to make spring steel but not sure about lead alloy.

[44man]

I water drop all my boolits, find no difference in accuracy.
Hard boolits do not cause leading. I suppose if I shot small bore BR I would oven harden and weigh boolits but since all I demand from revolvers is 1" or less at 50 yards, I see no reason to change.
Many of my revolver bores have not seen a patch in over 3 years, I only clean cylinders for new lube.
I do not believe in "bump up" and am only concerned with fit to grooves or a tad over.

[Lloyd Smale]

I totally agree with everything 44 man said. Hard does not case leading. Soft can. Hard does not cause inaccuracy in a good gun. As a matter of fact a good gun will shoot better the harder the bullet you use. If this wasn't so I don't think the jacketed bullet companys would be selling to many bullets. A gun that needs a bullet soft to bump up is a gun that needs a gunsmith. Only thing I might argue with 44man is is that I have seen a small (very small) difference in oven quenched bullets outshooting water dropped. But then ill say that a water dropped ww bullet will outshoot a air cooled ww bullet 9 times out of 10 in my guns. But then if my guns have a problem its already been fixed or its sent down the road. match velocity to hardness is bunk too. Harder bullets shoot better at 600fps and at 1600 fps in a good gun. If your seeing leading with hard bullets its because the bullet is rattling down the bore. Fix the oversized bore or at least size to match the dimensions and the problem will go away. If your cylinder is so oversized that you need bullets to bump up to fit it your probably NEVER going to get any real accuracy out of the gun anyway. Your just putting a band aid on a gun that needs to be traded off.
I water drop all my boolits, find no difference in accuracy.
Hard boolits do not cause leading. I suppose if I shot small bore BR I would oven harden and weigh boolits but since all I demand from revolvers is 1" or less at 50 yards, I see no reason to change.
Many of my revolver bores have not seen a patch in over 3 years, I only clean cylinders for new lube.
I do not believe in "bump up" and am only concerned with fit to grooves or a tad over.

[Love Life]

Just my experience, but I have gotten better accuracy in my pistols with harder bullets.

[mdi]

I water drop for convenience more than anything. Allows for handling of them right away. I don't use it as a means to harden them.
Yep, I'm guilty of dropping a "perfect" bullet outta the mold and thinking "Wow, look at that!" and picking it up for closer examination. Ouch! Pain hurts and fire burns...:veryconfu

Just a thought and question for water droppers. I've read water quenching only surface hardens lead, but how deep does the hardness go? .001"? .005"? 1/8"?

[44man]

It is so my friends, I could never get what I do with soft.
I have had a little luck with 50-50 boolits but they NEEDED to be oven hardened to 18 BHN or more and MUST have a GC.
I have shot a million air cooled boolits until I found all those fliers went away with WD.
There is a definition of accuracy with all shooters. Some think 3" at 25 is great but when you drive rifle shooters off the range with a revolver, you will never know.
My .44 is strange. The groove is .430" and the throats are .4324". My best group at 200 yards was1-5/16" but if I get holdover right I have shot beer cans at 200, a .430" cast
All of my IHMSA shooting was done and won with .430" Hornady bullets.
Just make cast work like jacketed.147508 I shot this 100 yard, 3/4" group off hand with a .430", 22 bhn boolit.
There is much more to understand the revolver. You ruin case tension with soft, you size boolits when seating, you slump boolits, you ruin them at the forcing cone, you skid boolits. You ruin boolits with instant fast powder loads, You force boolits out too early with the wrong primer. The worst is "you need to bump up the boolit to seal."
You need an "M" die, crimp HARD, can it ever end?
I shoot 30 to 1 with magnum velocities---PLEASE! A few found a genie bottle at the beach.
There might be something to be said with even hardening like Lloyd says but not needed for most shooting. Water drop is so easy compared to the other work and I hate work!

[44man]

Yep, I'm guilty of dropping a "perfect" bullet outta the mold and thinking "Wow, look at that!" and picking it up for closer examination. Ouch! Pain hurts and fire burns...:veryconfu

Just a thought and question for water droppers. I've read water quenching only surface hardens lead, but how deep does the hardness go? .001"? .005"? 1/8"?
It goes deep enough so sizing will not reach rifling depth. It might even be more then that. How could you measure? I know it still gives grip.
Free yourself from work, just have a 5 gallon bucket of water to the side on a little stool. No towels or anything needed. Just tap water, no ice. Nothing special at all, just drop into the bucket.
The boolit might still be 450 to 500° when it hits water. It will not be cooler then the mold and mine starts to cast at 500°. Lead at 750°.
I don't think a few seconds means a thing except for depth of hardening. Maybe oven hardened will increase depth but the surface is the same as WD. Lead only gets so hard. It is as hard quenched at 425° as at 500°.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with 44man on this too. My water quench vs oven hardness is mostly just my anal thinking. I too shoot enough that im not going to fool much with oven hardening bullets with I can get one inch 50 yard groups with water dropped. No biggy if one out of a 100 sneeks out to 2 inch. Still minute of any deer Ive shot.

[Lloyd Smale]

I shake my head at those old wives tales too. You see them even in places like the lyman casting manual. The only truth in most of it is maybe reflected by the fact that gun tolarances back in the 30s and 40s was so terrible that a good bullet wouldn't shoot in them. Most of those old guns were considered accurate if they hit a coffee can at 10 yards. Pay attention to modern cast bullet experts like Glen Fryxell, Rob Applegate and veral smith. Casting knowledge has come along ways in the past 20 years. Just like we found out the world isn't flat weve found out that bullets don't need to or do you want them to bump up into any shape other then what comes out of your mold. I chuckle at guys who will pay 200 dollars or more for a custom mold and then cast some soft alloy that turns into a mush of lead the minute it hits the forcing cone. Might as well stuff round balls down the barrel.
It is so my friends, I could never get what I do with soft.
I have had a little luck with 50-50 boolits but they NEEDED to be oven hardened to 18 BHN or more and MUST have a GC.
I have shot a million air cooled boolits until I found all those fliers went away with WD.
There is a definition of accuracy with all shooters. Some think 3" at 25 is great but when you drive rifle shooters off the range with a revolver, you will never know.
My .44 is strange. The groove is .430" and the throats are .4324". My best group at 200 yards was1-5/16" but if I get holdover right I have shot beer cans at 200, a .430" cast
All of my IHMSA shooting was done and won with .430" Hornady bullets.
Just make cast work like jacketed.147508 I shot this 100 yard, 3/4" group off hand with a .430", 22 bhn boolit.
There is much more to understand the revolver. You ruin case tension with soft, you size boolits when seating, you slump boolits, you ruin them at the forcing cone, you skid boolits. You ruin boolits with instant fast powder loads, You force boolits out too early with the wrong primer. The worst is "you need to bump up the boolit to seal."
You need an "M" die, crimp HARD, can it ever end?
I shoot 30 to 1 with magnum velocities---PLEASE! A few found a genie bottle at the beach.
There might be something to be said with even hardening like Lloyd says but not needed for most shooting. Water drop is so easy compared to the other work and I hate work!

[popper]

I shot 5 of the high BHN (~same as superhard when squished together in vice, guessing 35+ BHN) GC'd @ ~2700 fps = NO leading, sized to bore. Accuracy wasn't great but these were loaded way short to avoid any problems with the test. 100 yd target.
Edit: You can't get leading from a too hard alloy, even 'undersized'!!!! Proof here.
147524
Heat treating goes much deeper than rifling, depends on speed of cooling. Did test on some years ago, you can see the hardness ring (30 cal with near 0.1" ring when dropped into room temp H2O) when they are broken, looks like a well pitted set of ignition points.

[44man]

I have preached to relax and don't worry about the nit picking of a few tenths of hardness or a few tenths of ANYTHING. Just follow rules until loading is a great, calm thing that will bore your lights out. I do nothing different except meet requirements. I have spent my shooting life proving much in print is wrong and yes, I do seat and crimp at the same time.
Lloyd is like me, he does not believe until proven.
There it is for you, prove it to yourself. You are in charge.
I am getting Guns Magazine for some reason, never paid for it. What trash, 5 minutes and I am done with it. Outdoor life is a waste but Field and Stream has good recipes.
The Rifleman was a 5 minute read too. Just enough time to reach for toilet paper! OH yeah I need a $2400 scope or I can't shoot. You need $2500 Germain binocs or you will not see anything. I have Tasco $10 ones that work and old Bushnell ones that work. Never need them anyway. Never carry them. Deer hunting junk is the worst, a map to place stands for a bug buck. The amount of those that pattern a buck is counted on one finger. Most every huge buck killed is 100% luck. He was there and so where you. Fishing the same, a map of a river or lake, fish here at this bend.
Never believe what you read. You must work.

[Lloyd Smale]

Most every huge buck killed is 100% luck. He was there and so where you. no truer words were ever spoke. Fancy camo, scent killer, attracting scents, fancy blinds, high tech optics and the fanciest bullets on earth don't buy you a buck when hes in the next 40. Just like a bullet casted with the most anal methods will buy accuracy for someone who cant run a trigger.

[Moonie]

Fit is King, not hardness, I've not had leading issues with heat treated boolits at any speed I've tried them in, between 500fps-2,500fps when they were sized to properly fit the firearm.

[fatelk]

This is a very interesting thread to me. I've been casting a long time and have learned a ton from this forum, but I'm not nearly as scientific about it as some of you all, nor do I have either the time or money to get to be an exceptional shot. A mix of range/WW lead is my approximate alloy of choice, and I've done a fair amount of slugging and sizing to get fit right or at least close (I'm certainly convinced about that).

Some of the posts on the first page confused me a little, especially #2 (no offense intended). My non-scientific experiences with casting and shooting cast bullets over the years has convinced me that: 1. fit is king, of course, but also- 2. water dropping in a bucket just works better for me.

With the alloy I use (if you can call my approximation an alloy) and the guns I shoot it in, typically problems I had with non-WD bullets went away with WD bullets. I remember specifically issues with .45acp and .40 S&W (Glock). Maybe I was doing something else wrong, like lube or something, but water dropping has worked for me so I'll keep doing it.

Again, no offense to anyone who sees it differently, but I'll take ideas based on actual experience over ideas based on what someone said, read, or reasoned out in their mind any day.

Say- it's about time for the thread of the week somewhere out there on the world-wide-web regarding tumbling live ammo, or cast in a Glock, or something like that, isn't it? :)

Added: as to breaking sizers or excessive force needed- I haven't had that problem. Maybe with my weak alloy they're not terribly hard even water dropped. I did once accidentally cast a bunch of round balls for my C&B revolver out of the wrong alloy. One attempt at loading some up, and several hundred .44 round balls went back in the pot.

[Tenbender]

I ran those hard suckers through a Lee sizer this afternoon then PC them. I think the 20 min in the oven will soften them up a bit ! lol
In my opinion the only way I will ever water drop again is if the mold drops them at a size I can use without sizing. My 452 mold drops at 453. I run them through a 454 sizer and lube them. I might water drop them using some of my soft wheel weights. I got some WW's in a trade that has a BHN of 9. All my other WW's are in the 11 or 12 range.
I guess experiments like water drop add's to your casting knowledge .

[MT Gianni]

Post #2 refers to oven quenching, water dropping is straight from the mold to the water. Water dropped should take 12 hrs to 5 days to harden fully, you should size before they harden fully. Depending on storage will eventually soften back to original alloy though it could take 12 years to do.

[44man]

Bill, the Metal Man, told me to size within 1/2 hr of casting but it is hard to meet that.
I don't have to size much at all and just use a Lee push through to remove excess lube.
Tenbender mentions using an over size die but you don't want to do that to a GC boolit, works OK for PB. If your GC is larger then the boolit, it will open the case neck so you lose tension on the boolit. Best to use a die the same size as the boolit casts.
I run all GC boolits through the Lee base first too to prevent the die from pulling the check back and since all mine have a flat nose it is easy. It is kind of messy using the Lee with rings of lube sliding over the punch as it builds up but it is worth it.
I will get some on the ogive too and if thick I use my thumb nail to remove a chunk, also from the bases but I leave a film on the ogive as a benefit, just keep clean. I keep mine in the MTM box or in the gun, never in a pocket. I never carry extra rounds when hunting. 5 in the revolver is more then enough.
I will wipe lube from brass but never wipe the boolit nose.
If you ever clean your barrel and want to pre lube, put a small ball of lube on the nose of the first shot.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=fatelk;3357105

Again, no offense to anyone who sees it differently, but I'll take ideas based on actual experience over ideas based on what someone said, read, or reasoned out in their mind any day.
.[/QUOTE]

That is my approach as well. When my experience is different from what others say, I go with my experience. But there is one very large fly in that ointment, to wit: We need to draw the right conclusions from our experience.

In this case, folks on this thread and others on this board, tend to think guns are guns and all the rules apply to them all. At least, when posting the do allot of mixing apples and oranges. Handguns are different from rifles and not all handguns follow the same rules. There is a distinct difference between what works in a revolver vis-a-vi what works in an autopistols. There is also a difference between a typical 1911 type pistol in 45 ACP and a Glock of any caliber.

I certainly am not going to tell you my experience is superior to yours, but let us all remember to analyze our experience to understand the lessons we learn from it. Experience really means very little, unless we can draw valid conclusions from it.

[mdi]

Well, after reading 44 Man's posts I might just try water quenching on my next batch of bullets. For several years I have touted fit as much more important than BHN and have been able to eliminate most leading in all my handguns mostly by "correct" sizing (I haven't done enough cast bullet shooting in my rifles to really determine/develope good loads). But, I'm proud of my "open mind" and think I'll give it a try. My only "problem" will be sizing right after casting, my usual procedure is cast up 100-200 bullets and let them sit for a while before continuing(few days or months :mrgreen:, and I have some "as cast" bullets from 2013).

[popper]

Tenbender - I PC then size. Even HT'd they usually size without problem. The Lee gets leaded sometimes. I did have to melt out a boolit from the die once. A drop of oil lube does wonders. Yes, my handle is slightly bent now.
My experiment was to see how a really hard boolit did, worked fine. Will load some without GC to see how they do in 308W, also for the PB 145 gr in the BO, maybe I can get to 2k fps. Just tinkering and having fun.

[ogre]

"Oven quenching?" This term really makes no sense to me.

[fecmech]

My only "problem" will be sizing right after casting, my usual procedure is cast up 100-200 bullets and let them sit for a while before continuing(few days or months
You can buy some time(maybe a week tops) by putting the freshly cast bullets in a freezer. The cold temp slows the aging(hardening) process. I tried it a few years ago as a test and did not notice the need for additional force to size until about a week out. OTOH at room temp you will notice a big difference the next day.

[243winxb]

The higher amount of antimony, the sooner full hardness is reached. 4% antimony in about 30 minutes. http://www.keytometals.com/freedemo/page.aspx?ID=CheckArticle&site=ktn&LN=NL&NM=88 Solution Treating and Aging

[44man]

I have found my best loads with just 3 shots but it took years to reach that. Don't need 10 shots or 50, 5 shot groups. Once the boolit and load is right, the brass will beat you anyway. A few ounces difference in tension will toss that shot out.
I have said a million times that brass is your enemy, so are the dies and expanders you use. I have had so many name brand die sets that were made into other tools like flaring tools and compression tools for BP.
I went so far as having BR collar dies made for a revolver. Worked but are a big pain to use.
There is just no way to sort brass as you prepare it so I made the tool for measuring seating pressure for revolvers and that was the solution.
New brass was a disaster. I would not even hunt with new brass.
Soft boolits can ruin case tension and too much crimp will too. "M" dies are funny, lose half the tension right off. So are over size expanders.
You should see the boolit base and even ripples from the GG's through the brass because the boolit expanded the brass, not the other way around.
Then look at lube and primers. A slippery lube will let the boolit move early and a strong primer will move out a boolit before ignition is good. Case capacity is the key for primers and the .44 is too small for mag primers. .357 not bothered much with SP primers of any sort.
If you shoot a .45 ACP revolver, the LP primer is too much, try SP brass.
These are my rules I follow and it is not hard. But there is a reason I water drop. If I need expansion, I do half the nose only, I still want hard for what hits the forcing cone.

[Tenbender]

I checked the water drop boolits , now a week later, at 32 BHN. I PC them and have not checked the BHN yet . All I can say, if I want to shoot through steel then I will water drop. LOL If I need a hard boolit I will throw a ****** in the melt. That only last 4 hours !! :violin:

[44man]

That is pretty hard but I like that for a Keith. Mine average 20 to 22.
Costs more expensive metals to go real hard.

[Ola]

Thanks 44man. Thank you twice!

1. I thought there was something wrong with me. Dropping the bullets into water has been part of my routine but lately I've bee trying out the "dry method" because it is so big deal here in CB. Did not make me happy: I get frustrated not hearing the familiar "klong!!" sound when the shot feels right.

2. "Brass is your enemy". How can you tell before seating the bullet? I need to know!!!

[44man]

That's the problem, you don't know. I tried measuring spring back, etc. Even the structure of each piece can be different.
One way is to sort cases by where the boolits hit but then you need to tumble separate and keep them sorted all the time. I think for best groups, it is the way to do it. I just got lazy.
Revolver brass seems to get more even the more it is shot.

[Ola]

Ok, understand.

Actually I have been doing something like that: If I do my part but the round shoots bad -> I toss the case.

I have about thousand cases that I load over and over again so it would take a LOT of test shooting to do it the right way on big scale. But maybe I'll sort (=shoot) out 50 good cases..

Thanks again.

[44man]

Another strange thing is when I moved up from the .44 to larger bores, I found less trouble.
I had a lot of trouble with many .357's not mine and did not load them but sometimes we could get nothing to group. It just makes me wonder if brass is a bigger problem as calibers get smaller. I have none to test.
A revolver can get fussy and you can get away with a lot more with a semi or single shot.
You would think a tighter fit to the throats would be an aid but it never panned out. I have gone so far as to try .434" boolits. It did no good whatever to use the cylinder as a size die.
The very most important thing is to have every case have the same tension. A group of loose fits still shot tight groups but a different POI, as much as 10" from tighter fits. it is not how much tension, it is how close each piece of brass is.
Have you got the same color and amount of hair left after thinking it over? :bigsmyl2:

[Ola]

The hair is just fine :p. I'm not frustrated or confused. Just VERY interested.

I have known the case tension is important but never thought it would be THAT important. I learned it long time ago, when I was still shooting mostly jacketed stuff. Fe. some patches of .44 mag IMI cases were practically useless. There was NO way to make them grip a bullet.

Hmm, and I just realized WHY it has been possible to use "under size" cast bullets quite successfully..

[Stilly]

I water drop for convenience more than anything. Allows for handling of them right away. I don't use it as a means to harden them.


I am with you. I drop them in water to hopefully cool them faster so they do not get too messed up. And then I let them sit outside and dry off at the end of the day/casting session and then I go and maybe resize them or PC them and THEN resize them, but I have never had any issues, I just got tired of boolits with bits and chunks taken out of them. I feel the pain when I shake the mold and the inner one jumps from the left to hit the bottom edge of the right side on the way down... Breaks my heart...

But after I PC them, they all seem GTG.

This thread must be for the folks that do not PC. PC is like catsup, it is good on everything and solves a LOT of problems...

[Ola]

This thread must be for the folks that do not PC. PC is like catsup, it is good on everything and solves a LOT of problems... Probably so. But I'll drop the bullets in water even if I start PC'ing them. Can't do it other way :)

If I only could drop the bullets to "instant-PC-material". You know, using the residual heat of the bullet to bake the coating on..

[Lloyd Smale]

In my experience its seemed like the bigger the bore the easier to find accuracy period. Only exception is the 45 colt and that's because it comes in so many mismatched twists, throats ect. I think my 475s and 500s would shoot good with a wolf primer and charged with some sand and a glob of lead. Its pretty rare to find a bullet that doesn't shoot at least "well" in them unless you fool with exceptional light or exceptional heavy bullets.
Another strange thing is when I moved up from the .44 to larger bores, I found less trouble.
I had a lot of trouble with many .357's not mine and did not load them but sometimes we could get nothing to group. It just makes me wonder if brass is a bigger problem as calibers get smaller. I have none to test.
A revolver can get fussy and you can get away with a lot more with a semi or single shot.
You would think a tighter fit to the throats would be an aid but it never panned out. I have gone so far as to try .434" boolits. It did no good whatever to use the cylinder as a size die.
The very most important thing is to have every case have the same tension. A group of loose fits still shot tight groups but a different POI, as much as 10" from tighter fits. it is not how much tension, it is how close each piece of brass is.
Have you got the same color and amount of hair left after thinking it over? :bigsmyl2:

[Stilly]

Probably so. But I'll drop the bullets in water even if I start PC'ing them. Can't do it other way :)

If I only could drop the bullets to "instant-PC-material". You know, using the residual heat of the bullet to bake the coating on..


Hmmmmm. I should try that with the HF white and red that I have.

I was water dropping this morning but I keep telling myself that as long as it hits thee water FIRST it will harden up a bit (cool down) enough to not get all messed up when it hits the other boolits.

If I am dropping the boolits in the water and I only have 1-2" of water over the tops of the other bullets, is that safe or are they still delicate and will get messed up?

My Lyman cast bullet book should be here tomorrow.

I have so many boolits that I have to PC now I will be kept busy for at least a few days...

[44man]

My bucket is a 6 gal with around 5 gal of water. Even 440 gr boolits are not marked. I keep it on a short stool next to the bench, just turn and dump.

[Ola]

I have couple of old t-shirts or other rags at the bottom of the water bucket. Just to be sure..

[dragon813gt]

I place a towel at the bottom. And then overlap two at the top. This creates a ramp down to the water while preventing water splashing out. I don't want water all over my work area. I tried it w/ no towels on top and no matter what I tried it ended up on the floor.

[Aunegl]

Five gallon Homer bucket and four gallons of water works for me.

[Budzilla 19]

+1^^^^^^^^ on the above post!! I just drop em in water regardless.i cast outside so no problem with water on ground!

[Edward]

I know that testing BHN with a lee tester I can file a flat half ways thru and get the hardness #at any depth which would indicate that hardness is consistent thru out ,or maybe I"m wrong but that"s what my test results always show .