Do cast hollow point bullets expand in gel when using wheel weight lead?

[mojomandan]

Hi guys,

I am considering getting a 9mm hollow point mold from NOE (comes with FN and cup nose pins too). I have read some posts on cast hollow points, but cannot find any threads or YouTube videos by someone who has tested expansion of such hollow points (cast from wheel weight lead) when shot into ballistic gel.

Anybody have experience with this?

Thank you!

[44man]

There should be some if air cooled.
I would think a two part boolit with a softer nose would work best.

[Ola]

Yeah, I think so too. Air cooled + cavity is big enough = expansion (HP-bullets with copper jacket expand at the same velocity level in ballistic gel.)

[fecmech]

HPWW bullets can expand if velocity is high enough but will then shear the nose off. WW alloy only bends so far before it breaks unlike tin based alloys that are very flexible.

[mojomandan]

Hey guys, I appreciate the replies, but I am still waiting to hear from someone who has actually tested these boolits.

[fecmech]

I have shot air cooled WW alloy( 358439) in the .357 mag at 1250 Fps into a gallon water jug. Behind the jug was a piece of heavy cardboard to check expansion on exit. There were pieces of the bullet nose left in the jug and the hole in the cardboard was essentially .35 cal. I did this a couple times with the same results. The same test with a 20/1 lead/tin mix gave 1/2-5/8" holes in the cardboard. YMMV

[youngmman]

Hey guys, I appreciate the replies, but I am still waiting to hear from someone who has actually tested these boolits.

I've not personally tried hollow point cast bullets but have seen tests of them. The results were that they did not expand very well at normal handgun velocities. For shear lethality, from actual experience on animals, a wide flat nose bullet is devastating in terms of shear killing power.

The cast hollow points I refer to were tested in Jell. I don't give one tinkers damn about jell so HP's might work ok in actual real life shooting situations with flesh and blood. In that spirit I KNOW the wide flat nose bullets work well. I tend to use the wide and long flat nose bullets from LBT molds in 38sp/357mag, 44sp/44mag and 45 ACP 225 gr. with BHN's of 14.

[dualsport]

Try looking for Lyman Devastator videos. They've been around a while and may have been tested. Ought to be similar to what you're looking at.

[gwpercle]

Wheel weight alloy tends to shear, mixed 50/50 with lead is a better mix for mushrooming .
I was also thinking of a 9mm NOE mould, but thought if the boolit was soft enough for hollow point to mushroom , would it deform when it hits the feed ramp ?
After thinking this over I've decided to get a gas check design mould and cast the bullet on the soft side, no hollow point, and drive it at a fast stepping pace. The check should stop leading , the fast velocity and soft slug might work out.
Another reason for the gas check is my free supply of wheel weights has dried up and I want to mix WW's with lead to stretch out my supply.
I have shot hollow point boolits only in revolvers and would like to also know what happens when a big, especially if it's soft , HP boolit hits the feed ramp.

Gary

[GabbyM]

If you shoot straight wheel weight hollow points 1,100 fps the nose petals will break off. Rest of the slug stays solid to penetrate. Fragmenting bullets can do well against small varmint size targets. Cut our WW with 1/4 pure or at least soft lead then add 1to 1 1/2% tin. You'll get a bullet that stays together better and is plenty hard for any good 9mm. For what I'd call premium performance. Cut WW with 2% tin at 50/50 with soft lead. Then water drop from mold or heat treat. It sort of depends upon your target and how picky you want to be. My hollow point handgun mold is a 44 caliber 255 grain SWC. Then I have a 30 caliber 180 grain rifle boolit. With the rifle bullets I and others here have been playing with adding copper. About 1% Cu to the alloy makes for a very tough bullet that won't expand all the way to the gas check like a BHN #10 bullet fired at 2,000 fps will. The 44 hand gun at sub sonic velocity isn't so critical on what alloy. I use a BHN#9 alloy at 1,100 fps with the 44 mag. That alloy should give expansion at velocity over 900 fps or a formula of BHN x 100 = velocity at which you can expect usable expansion. That formula gets you in the ball park. Different alloy malleability inserts a variable.

With a 9mm the trick will be luck in having a barrel that shoots fairly soft bullets. WW plus 2% Sn air cooled will probably be to hard to expand at 9mm velocity. Since that's probably about a BHN #12 alloy. I'd work on hitting a BHN#9. If your pistol doesn't like them that soft. Heat treat the bullets. They will still expand much like a BHN#9 bullet. I'd recommend a slow for 9mm powder like AA #7 or AA#5. Slower acceleration helps some with preventing bullet slump. Anything a little slower than Unique.

Years ago in a 9mm I shot some Hornady hollow point SWC swaged bullets that were basically pure lead. IIRC they were 135 grain and looked like the 155 grain 38 Special FBI bullet. I just shot them at 38 Special plinking velocity. 850fps or so. They would expand all the way to the base in the range dirt berm then be laying around at the surface. I did get moderate leading with the commercial swaged bullets. That's the extreme soft side of what you can shoot in a 9mm.

With WW you never know exactly what you have. You can usually get close enough to make something go splat.

[Blackwater]

It's been a long time now, and it wasn't in gelatin but in wet newsprint, but my results pretty well mirror all the above. Straight WW's have a tendency to break off as the expand, with the shank continuing to penetrate, not unlike a Nosler Partition J-bullet. Mix 50/50 WW/soft lead, and you'll get bigger, quicker expansion. Add in a little tin, and the WW's hold together much better. 4% is a lot of tin, but that's where I got my own best expansion and holding togetherness. That's with WW's only. With 50/50 mix, it'd probably take less tin. Tin, in addition to aiding fluidity when molten, also seems to increase malleability when you're wanting expansion. I went by the stuff in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual, and it seemed to be pretty close to what I found in newsprint, and in the field. Since most of the stuff I shot was smallish to medium sized, and I could tell little difference on target, and I was getting WW's for free back then, or very nearly so, I just went back to WW's, and let the rest go due to time constraints and the difficulty at that time in finding soft lead. The "practical" often outweighs the fine points, especially to a young guy in college and working 3 jobs, or just starting out and trying to learn to fly on his own. Still, it's nice to know this stuff, and to experiment as we go along. Knowledge is always a prize for us humans, and we'll never really have quite enough. It's like Potterfield says about how many pairs of boots we need. The obvious answer is always "Just one more."

[mojomandan]

It's been a long time now, and it wasn't in gelatin but in wet newsprint, but my results pretty well mirror all the above. Straight WW's have a tendency to break off as the expand, with the shank continuing to penetrate, not unlike a Nosler Partition J-bullet. Mix 50/50 WW/soft lead, and you'll get bigger, quicker expansion. Add in a little tin, and the WW's hold together much better. 4% is a lot of tin, but that's where I got my own best expansion and holding togetherness. That's with WW's only. With 50/50 mix, it'd probably take less tin.

Ok, good to know, thanks!

[Bearsdad]

I've been doing some experimenting with Lyman Devastator bullets. I cast them for a BHN of approximately 14 (as close as I can figure with my Lee Hardness tester) and shooting jugs of water. They are cast at an average weight of 258 grains and so far, shooting through multiple water jugs at velocities of 1140 to 1471 as recorded by my Oehler 35p, has shown some promise but after penetrating 8 one gallon milk jugs the nose has sheared off while leaving evidence of mushrooming and expansion. Using a BHN of 15 improved the situation with slightly more of the mushroom left.
One thing I have noticed and that I find useful is that even after the mushroom shears off the shank still weighs anywhere from 149.8 to 173.5 grains and continues all the way through the jugs. I'm going to keep experimenting with different alloy recipes until I find the one that will give the best mushrooming at the highest velocities...Either way, I'll be happy using any of the casts that I've tried seeing as how the shank retains so much weight and penetrates so well.

[brewer12345]

FWIW, I am eagerly awaiting the mihec cone of the RCBS 200 grain 35 Rem mold in hollow point. I plan to cast 16-1 with a small pin for use in a 35 Rem at 1700 to 1800 FPS.

[Time Killer]

Check out Loads of Bacon on you - tube. He was doing jell test with different alloys and hollow points. That is if you tube has not taken his post down. i think elvis ammo on you tube also has several test he conducted in B jell.

[Fenring]

Your mileage will vary depending on bullet design and velocity.

Expansion with an impact speed around 1000fps is so-so even with the best JHP designs.

So ideally you will want the lightest bullet, with the biggest hollow point.

The Lyman HP design as used in the Devastator is broad at the opening and tapered towards the bottom.

Glenn Fryxell has an article here on the 9mm Devastator but has used water jugs to test it.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLymanDevastator.htm

If they expand in water, they will expand in gel.

[Tripplebeards]

Not the 9 mm or jel..but gives you an idea how 44 mag devastators with different alloys expand in water.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?362842-More-testing-with-the-Lyman-devistator-and-my-ruger-77-44

[Outpost75]

Have not shot in gel, but have in water jugs. Here are results for 50-50 WW-PB+1%Sn in S&W 2" .38 Special snub:

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[quilbilly]

Until recently, I have never seen the need for hollow points but I recently acquired a Mihec 30 cal mold for 130 gr boolits (311410). It is adjustable for flat point, shallow hollow point, and deep HP. My alloy is 70% pure and 30% hard birdshot with a little extra tin and the shallow hollow points come out absolutely beautiful and shoot even better in my 308. If you can't find wheel weights, you might try that alloy I am using.

[bangerjim]

Most of us do not have/use gel. Only the foresenic labs can afford it!

I cast a lot of 9mm, 38, and 45 HP’s and try to keep the alloy around 11-12 (Cabine tester) with an extra 2-3% Sn. (I have over 450# of the stuff so that extra Sn does not bother me at all).

The few I have recovered seemed to expand as expected for HP’s. I also have the MiHEC style molds with the several selectable shapes of nose......LOVE IT!

And I PC everhthing for easy loading and mess-less smoke-less shooting.

Good luck on your quest!

Bangerjim

[jmort]

I use the Clear Ballistics synthetic gel. Got two 24 inch blocks and two molds. It is resuable. Not too expensive. Just add a crock pot and you good to go casting gel blocks.
Fun to use

[Good Cheer]

If you want a hollow point boolit to stay together rather than flying into pieces it needs to be real soft.
If you want real soft boolits to not lead the barrel it is better to put copper shoes on them.
If you want a mushrooming boolit to push on through the "medium" it needs to have enough weight.
If you want a soft snaggy boolit to function reliably through a semi-auto it is best to feed the weapon an elongated round nosed boolit.

That's just all a bunch of stuff I worked my way through while wasting time with pistols instead of revolvers. But hey, these are modern times with fresh young ideas. So what I came up with was take a heavy reliably feeding gas checked round nose, have a monstrous hollow point pin installed and cast them soft.

That's not your every day chitty-chitty-bang-bang range boolit so cast them hard for practice and soft for killin'.

[KVO]

Gel ≠ Water. Neither is equal to flesh and bone.

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