Hunting with cap & ball revolver

[Fly]

I was wondering if any of you guys ever hunted with a .44 cal cap & ball revolver?

Fly:bigsmyl2:

[Walkingwolf]

When I was a teenager I kept a 49 pocket pistol with me. I took a fair amount of rabbit, and squirrel with that little pistol. Have not hunted anything larger with a cap, and ball.

[rondog]

Illegal to use one here in CO.

[Vann]

I've always wanted to give it a try, but it was illegal here in Mississippi. Now that we don't have a primitive weapon season anymore the laws may have changed. I think I'm going to check into.

[bubba.50]

don't know about other states but, here in Virginia, while it's illegal to hunt with one durin' muzzleloader season you can use one durin' regular firearm season. just has to meet the power/caliber regs for what yer huntin'.

[Tar Heel]

Yes. The 44 will drop a deer at close range. Out to 25 yards.

[Fly]

My buddy shot a 100 lb Hog with a dragoon at 85 yds. I think he said he loaded it with 40 grains gorex with a ball.

Fly

[koger]

I have taken 2 deer here in KY, with my Ruger Old Army. 457, 220grain slugs and all the 3fffg I could cram in her!

[winelover]

Thirty three grains of Pyroxex "P", Wonder Wad, Lee 220 Conical, Wonder Seal (lube cookie), #11 CCI cap, in ROA.

146920

Winelover

[StrawHat]

Illegal to use one here in CO.

Same in Ohio for deer and such. I have used them on groundhogs. Put the boolit where it needs to be and they drop.

Kevin

[Fly]

That's something I want to do. I would love to hog hunt with one.

Fly

[Hellgate]

Basically, you are hunting with a 38 Special. A 38 Special will drop a deer with proper placement BUT, I doubt anybody gets excited when asked about hunting deer with a 38SPL but that is what you are doing if you use a Remington or Colt style revolver. The ROA is a better gun ballistically but doesn't quite reach even .357 mag power as a hunting gun. The .357 is considered a marginal deer load. The odds of wounding a deer or losing a well hit deer are pretty high. I've had several deer run 100 yards when shot broadside through the chest with a .30-06. I think they would have gone 200+ yards before laying down if hit with a 38. Good luck finding them in the timber. I wouldn't do it with less than a Colt Walker.

[Omnivore]

The 8" Remington New Model Army Pietta repro (and presumably most other 44s) will do 180 grains at 1027, or so my chronograph tells me. That happens to be the exact same as the top load for the 40 Smith & Wesson. That's more power than the hottest published 38 Spl +P loads I'm seeing in the Speer #12 manual I have right here.

That was 30 grains of 3F; not a maximum charge in the Remington either. I've been able to get 40 grains Goex and a Lee 200 in there (with difficulty).

For deer in WA State, the minimum requirement is 45/45/8, meaning factory recommended maximum charge must be at least 45 grains BP or sub, the caliber must be at least 45 (they used to say "factory designated" caliber, but now they just say caliber, so it can be argued that these 44s are actually 45s by modern standards), and the factory designated barrel length must be at least 8". I don't know about the ROA (it comes down to what Ruger said about it), but that edges out the Remington by a little bit.

I have no doubt that a stout charge in a 44 with a heavy-ish bullet will through-and-through any white tailed deer in a broadside into the boiler room within 25 yards.

Not a whole lot different from 50 cal round ball at 100 yards I'm thinkin', though I'd have to go back and do the math again, and the diameter difference is ~.450" verses .490" or .495" and I've gotten up to 25" measured inches of penetration on a deer at 85 yards with 50 RB.

[ShooterAZ]

On paper a 44 cap and ball is on par with a 38 Special, muzzle energy wise. However, in my experience a .457 pure lead roundball (or conical) does a lot better job of putting an animal down than a 38. It will knock them right down with good shot placement at reasonable ranges.

[Good Cheer]

1977 hunting trip at Gunsight, Texas.
Hit him in the shoulder on a running shot with FFFg and my round nose with no lube grooves.
Clean kill. Biggest field mouse anybody got that whole week.

[Hogdaddy]

shot a many of hogs with a colt repo 44,, use my 50 cal/ rifle for deer ; )
H/D

[rodwha]

Hellgate/The ShooterAZ: Depends on the powder used. Sporting grade powders can outdo modern .45 Colt loads using conicals/bullets, and a RB will give standard .45 ACP performance.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

Note that he reduced his T7 loads by ~15% and used mild compression, which isn't necessary.

T7 gives very similar velocities as Swiss and Olde Eynsford BP by volume.

[winelover]

I have never choreographed my ROA hunting load......but no where is it on par with 38 Special. The ROA is slightly heavier than the same length BH. Recoil with 220 conicals and a full cylinder of Pyrodex "P" is on par with a moderately loaded 44 Mag or 45 LC Blackhawk. Known deer calibers.

I hunt with the ROA, out of treestands, where shots are usually less than 25 yards. The deer pictured was shot at 15 yards, just behind the front shoulder, and was recovered within another 15 yards. How's that for performance? On par with 38 Special??:veryconfu

Winelover

[rodwha]

Wine lover: Though still a larger caliber with a heavier projectile; the energy figures are about on par with a .38 Spl (even +P) if other powders are used (Pyrodex P seems more stout, though not on par with the ones I previously mentioned).

[Vann]

How many deer have you seen that where hit an killed with that one piece of lucky 00 buck. Around the deer camp in my younger days it seem that it happened regularly.
On paper a capn'ball all revolver seems anemic at best but in reality that little round ball or conical fired by a full cylinder of BP has put many a critter on the the ground both of the two and four legged kind. If you think about the guns and ammo that where developed when the old revolvers where still in use, there really wasn't anything much more powerful than a Walker or a Dragoon. Unless you stepped up to the big rounds like the 45-70. Back in the day i don't think that a 38-40 or a 44-40 where nearly as impressive, I know a that a 38 short or long Colt wasn't neither was the 44 Russian. Sure the 45 Colt was king of the revolvers, but I'm pretty sure that for a while there the good ol' civil war relics took their share of game.

[Ola]

Interesting discussion. Keep it going!

(One question: can't you use dogs to find the wounded animals? I mean 100 or 300 yards is not a problem if you have a good dog..)

[John Allen]

Thirty three grains of Pyroxex "P", Wonder Wad, Lee 220 Conical, Wonder Seal (lube cookie), #11 CCI cap, in ROA.

146920

Winelover


Nice, congrats

[dtknowles]

Wine lover: Though still a larger caliber with a heavier projectile; the energy figures are about on par with a .38 Spl (even +P) if other powders are used (Pyrodex P seems more stout, though not on par with the ones I previously mentioned).

I thought it was well understood at Pistol Velocities that energy comparisons are not a good indicator for relative killing/stopping power. I know it does not translate well into numbers but practical experience and similarity are the best guide.

Tim

[Uncle R.]

A fully-loaded Ruger Old Army with the Lee conicals delivers ballistics on a par with the .45ACP. That 220 grain .454 dia bullet will get into the 800-something velocity range with ease. I've actually shot table bowling pins with mine and it did very well with results similar to the .45 auto. A solid hit would sweep the pins off nicely and that's more than you can expect from normal .38 special loads. I don't think anyone would deny that terminal results on game of a 220 gr. 45 cal soft lead bullet at that speed would be better than most .38 special loads too.

I wouldn't have any reservations about using mine on deer at short range, but state law here won't allow it.

Uncle R.

[rodwha]

dtknowles: The point in the energy figures is to show how it compares to modern calibers better known. If the bullet and energy figures are quite similar it can be assumed that it should behave fairly similarly (I don't like a RN for hunting, but a wide flat meplat). So if it's known that a .45 Colt load can indeed take medium game there's no reason why these, loaded with the proper powders, couldn't do likewise being quite similar.

[Vann]

I wonder what Elmer Keith would say about this topic. Anyone care to guess?

[Mytmousemalibu]

I wonder what Elmer Keith would say about this topic. Anyone care to guess?

"Take your ROA, load that sucker up with a stout charge of 4F and the heaviest conical that fits!"

[Vann]

"Take your ROA, load that sucker up with a stout charge of 4F and the heaviest conical that fits!"
Perhaps he would skip the holy black and use Unique or something instead!


Lol, I think he would only try the Unique if he couldn't blow it up after several tries with the 4fg. That being said he spent a lot of his youth shooting a 36.cal cap n ball revolver. I'd venture to say he tried to kill a deer with it at least once, before moving on to using a 38 special and creating the 357 mag.

[Maven]

"Perhaps he would skip the holy black and use Unique or something instead!"

Chris, I know the above was said in jest, but someone not wise to the ways of BP revolvers and pressure generated by smokeless powder, is liable to do that. Maybe you should edit the post to remove that reference, lest we turn a potential Darwin Award candidate into an actual one? Just trying to avoid a misunderstanding that leads to a tragedy!

[Thumbcocker]

IIRC Elmer thought that a .36 cal cap and ball was much superior to a .38 special with factory rn loads as a stopper.

[Mytmousemalibu]

[COLOR=#333333]"Perhaps he would skip the holy black and use Unique or something instead!"

Chris, I know the above was said in jest, but someone not wise to the ways of BP revolvers and pressure generated by smokeless powder, is liable to do that. Maybe you should edit the post to remove that reference, lest we turn a potential Darwin Award candidate into an actual one? Just trying to avoid a misunderstanding that leads to a tragedy!

You have a valid point, and I heeded your advise! Even as a wisecrack, better to be safe than sorry! Sometimes my typing muscle memory tries to go before the brain gears are fully meshed!

[Hellgate]

I bet that Elmer Keith wouldn't admit in writing to the deer he hit with a revolver that ran off to never be found. It's romantic to imagine getting a deer with the percussion guns but there's a reason they are often no allowed by law for deer hunting. I use my C&Bs for finishing shots only.

[rbuck351]

I'm planning on using my 44 pietta on arctic hare. I'm betting it will work well.

[Maven]

Chris, Thanks for doing that! Even though Ruger tested the OA with smokeless powder, it was an extreme test, and certainly not recommended as the only thing containing the higher pressure are the threads on the nipple.

[Good Cheer]

What a shame Ruger didn't mass produce an extended cylinder version with faster twist.
I love my forty bore 1858 Remington with SWC's, wadcutters and round noses. In 1989 a fellow I got to know in Alabama had a stainless .410 smoothbore with long cylinder and 12" barrel based upon a 1858 that I much admired and thought would be even more awesome with fast twist rifling and SWC's. He wouldn't sell it.

[rodwha]

That's what I've considered with a Walker. With the swap of a barrel that's been reamed smooth one could use shot. I'm guessing it would be about on par with a .410. Not sure what kind of twist Uberti gives them, but my 195 grn WFN is merely .460" long so it ought to do well were it a slower twist.

[Hanshi]

Long ago I was serving time - my weekend came round - in a fire tower; a friend was there keeping me company and was a witness. I had my Remmy 1858 loaded with powder and ball. A buzzard flew by and with my arm sticking out the window, I literally blew him out of the sky. My friend's eyeballs still bulge a little to this day. My only live shot with a c&b.

[Good Cheer]

Long ago I was serving time - my weekend came round - in a fire tower; a friend was there keeping me company and was a witness. I had my Remmy 1858 loaded with powder and ball. A buzzard flew by and with my arm sticking out the window, I literally blew him out of the sky. My friend's eyeballs still bulge a little to this day. My only live shot with a c&b.

Oh man! What video that would have made!
[smilie=w:

[Good Cheer]

That's what I've considered with a Walker. With the swap of a barrel that's been reamed smooth one could use shot. I'm guessing it would be about on par with a .410. Not sure what kind of twist Uberti gives them, but my 195 grn WFN is merely .460" long so it ought to do well were it a slower twist.

For a snake charmer it might do great. You know what though... I'm kinda nervous about Walkers just because people used to blow up originals. Yeh, I know, they didn't have as good a metal back then. But just like form follows function, function follows form and it would make me nervous squeezin' off on a wad of snake shot.

[winelover]

Long ago I was serving time - my weekend came round - in a fire tower; a friend was there keeping me company and was a witness. I had my Remmy 1858 loaded with powder and ball. A buzzard flew by and with my arm sticking out the window, I literally blew him out of the sky. My friend's eyeballs still bulge a little to this day. My only live shot with a c&b.

Don't let the Federale's know........Vultures are protected under Federal Law......that translates to all states.

Winelover

[Mytmousemalibu]

Chris, Thanks for doing that! Even though Ruger tested the OA with smokeless powder, it was an extreme test, and certainly not recommended as the only thing containing the higher pressure are the threads on the nipple.

Neat, didn't know Ruger tested the ROA with smokeless! Yeah, the thought of a nipple or parts of one or cylinder chunks flying about is scary. My hat is off to Elmer Keith for using big brass ones knowing he was likely to pop a gun at some point!

[Maven]

Chris, Look at this thread, especially post #s 3, 5, & 11:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273123-Ruger-Old-Army-With-smokeless-Powder

[rodwha]

"It's romantic to imagine getting a deer with the percussion guns but there's a reason they are often no allowed by law for deer hunting."

If it performs no differently than a .45 Colt, a well known medium game cartridge, there's nothing "romantic" about it.

Many of the game laws are made by people who don't know which end is which.

[Outpost75]

Thirty three grains of Pyroxex "P", Wonder Wad, Lee 220 Conical, Wonder Seal (lube cookie), #11 CCI cap, in ROA.

146920

Winelover

Bravo Zulu! Essentially same outfit I use except I prefer standard TC MaxiBall or Lee 250-gr. R.E.A.L. in my Od Army and had Bowen put a higher front sight on it to zero heavier bullets for 50 yards. I look for standard .45 Colt ballistics ~850 fps with 250-gr. in 7-1/2" barrel, have taken seven deer and sixteen boar with that arrangement.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

C&B do not load through the muzzle so they are out for Muzzleloader season in WIS you may use it during modern firearms season as long as the barrel is 5 1/2 inches or longer , they do include the cylinder in the measurement so even a 4 inch barrel will work it is considered from muzzle to firing pin , yeah I know a C&B has no firing pin

[rodwha]

Same here. I cannot use it as a primary weapon during muzzleloading season, though I can carry it as a sidearm, but it most certainly can be used any other season.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Chris, Look at this thread, especially post #s 3, 5, & 11:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273123-Ruger-Old-Army-With-smokeless-Powder

Thanks for the link! That whole thread was a pretty good read! I would actually like to get me an ROA at some point, I have recently been infected with flintlock fever and I have wanted some cap & ball guns for a while, now so more than ever!

[Good Cheer]

Cheese and crackers.
I think it's hilarious that every day people don't run the game department nazis that dictate what you can and can't hunt with out of town on a rail.
I grew up with a six pointer on the dining room wall that Mom brought home with a 32-20.
Ooo, but you can't use that .44!

Where's the spittoon?

[Omnivore]

32-20? That's full load 36 Navy cap and ball ballistics. Most comments on forums say the 36 is a real "man stopper" so it must be great for deer too, eh?

[Rio Grande]

Elmer Keith had lots to say about round ball in BP revolvers. Thought very highly of their stopping power. He grew up around CW veterans, and shot quite a bit of BP himself. He said the round ball performed much better on game and humans than the paper figures would suggest. Read 'Sixguns' by Keith.
I'm sure he would not hesitate to take a deer with and and ball .44.
I like Ruger Old Armies, but the Remington and Colt .44's come very close, and have more than acceptable power.

[Vann]

I'm think I am going to try my 58 Remington on deer this year. I pistol hunt anyways so I'm used to shot placement and range restrictions. I'm planning on using either Triple 7 or Pyrodex pellets, which ever shoots fastest over my Chrono. I just need to figure out what projectile to use. I have a round ball mold, a Lee 200 gr cap n' ball mold, a Big Lube 210 gr cap n' ball mold, and I've loaded my 250 gr lyman rnfp that I shoot out of my Colts in my cap n' ball pistols before with pretty good results.

I'm kinda leaning towards the Lyman 250 grain boolit with a pyrodex pellet. What do yall think?

[Hellgate]

If the bullet fits and is accurate enough use it. One concern I have with Pyro pellets is whether they reliably ignite. The pellets do seem to pack a punch.

[Omnivore]

Hellgate; you'll have to try the pellets in your gun to be sure. I've fired hundreds of them in my Pietta Remington 44. They are powerful, but in my gun they tend to exhibit the occasional slight hang fire; just enough to make the difference between a hit and a miss.

There's nothing wrong with real black, and out of several hundred shots using paper cartridges with Old Eynsford powder I've never had a hang fire so far. Given the difference in price per 100 shots, and the hang fire issue, it's a no-brainer for me and my gun. Old E it is, or Swiss, either of which provide good energy and reliability.

Something I might try is seating the Lee 450-200-1R backwards, which would give you a flat nose, or wadcutter, boat tail. Possibly better terminal effect that way, if its accuracy were acceptable.

[Hellgate]

If you do seat the bullet in reverse, be sure to check accuracy. The LEE mold casts the conical so the upper part has the greatest diameter so you may have trouble getting EXACT alignment with the chamber & bore. Try it and see what you get. It might be surprising or not.

[Vann]

I have about 20 jars of Pyrodex pellets that where given to me sitting on my shelf, so cost isn't a issue. I use Ampco nipples which give 100% ignition every time with the pellets so I know I'm good there. As far as seating the bullets, I added a rebate to the mouth of all the chambers on both of my 58's, this made seating conical boolits much easier and when using my reloading stand it allows me to use just about any bullet I want as long as the alloy is soft. This also keeps the bullet square in the chamber.

I'm going to limit my first kill to a standing broadside shot no more than 25 yards away. I guess I just need to run a few over my chrono and see how fast they are running.

[rodwha]

Please post your results when you do.

[Vann]

I will, I've got a lot of irons in the fire right now but I will post my results when I get to it. I'll definitely shoot them over a chronograph before I hit the woods and try hunting with it.

Based on what I've seen these pistols do to on a wooden backstop, I have pretty good confidence in their performance.

[rodwha]

I'd think the 210 grn bullet might be better with the limited powder capacity.

[dogrunner]

Interesting discussion. Keep it going!

(One question: can't you use dogs to find the wounded animals? I mean 100 or 300 yards is not a problem if you have a good dog..)


Depends on the regulations in the particular state you are hunting in.....some absolutely prohibit dogs for deer entirely....some permit it in a limited fashion and some the use is generally approved for both free running or just tracking.

[Hang Fire]

When living in Alaska, I used a 58 Remington on porcupine (a real pest) and whistle pigs.