Forming 40-65 from 45-70 Starline brass

[Roundball]

I have started to make brass for my 40-65 Highwall. The rifle has a relined barrel and was refurbished some years ago. Got all my gear together. Ran into a problem forming 40-65 brass from new Starline 45-70 brass. The only way I could form the 40-65 case was to make four passes using the RCBS FL die . This was done by screwing the FL die deeper into the press. I was using Imperial Sizing Wax and a Rochchucker press. Am I missing something? Is there a better way to reform these cases? Next comes the case trimming.:cry:

[country gent]

Starline makes 40-65 with the correct headstamp. Otherwise give pure anhydrous lanolin a try for sizing. Another trick is to use seating die as first or pre sizing. WHat press are you using to do this reforming? A rockchucker, Lyman oarnge crusher or any of the heavy single stage presses should have enough strength and leverage for this operation. Another thing you might try is to anneal 45-70 brass before starting. Due to sizing down cases will get longer and need trimming and chamfering. One plus to this is with a good chamber cast you can see what case length is for your chamber and trim for it -.010 or so. A friends chamber was 2.128 case length. Going thru the work you might as well give yourself every advantage possible.

[Mk42gunner]

I'm in the gathering stages of building a .40-65 myself. I have the reloading dies along with a Redding form and trim die; all I need is some molds, H&I dies and a rifle, along with the money to pay for it all. The only reason I have the dies is I found them cheap from an "estate" sale at a local gun show a few years ago.

I have played around and made a couple of cases from either RP or WW brass and it went rather easily once I moved to the bolted down Rockchucker, (a handheld Lyman Accupress did not work).

Remember you are moving a considerable amount of brass, it should take some effort. I have not formed any by only using the FL die, but I don't see any reason it won't work. The form die may be smoother, but it is another expense.

Have you tried anything other than Starline brass? I have read that it can be thicker/ stronger/ tougher to form than others. You might try a light anneal before forming; but that usually leads to buckled shoulders in other calibers for me.

Robert

[pjames32]

Try to anneal first.
PJ

[kjorgy]

When I reform cases to 40-65 I use either winchester or remington brass. They are a lot easier to reform than starline which is a very hard brass. It also helps to anneal the brass. I use the Imperial sizing die wax but you have to careful not to get too much on the cases or you get oil dents.

[leadman]

I bought a 40-65 Pedersoli Credmore Rolling Block from Cabela's probably 15 years ago. I reformed some 45-70 and it would not fit the chamber. Took it to the gun shop that I did the transfer with since the owner had a Browning 40-65 and his brass would not fit either. We found out that the is an original chamber and a modern chamber. Mine was chambered for the old style. The new is larger towards the rim so I used a split dowel and emery paper in a drill to fit the reformed 45-70 brass to my chamber.
I use the full length sizing die to reform 45-70 but have not used Starline for this. I do take short strokes and make sure there is just the tiniest amount of lube on the case as it will cause wrinkles. On some hard to form brass that I have forgotten the brand I had to wipe the case when it was about half reformed and relube it. New brass seems to work the best.

[EDG]

I think there are 4 or 5 different 40-65 chambers and die sets. I have a Browning and it is easy to size brass to fit. The old original chambers will bind at the head in front of the rim with some of the modern die sets. That is why the Starline 40-65 brass has a ring squeezed into the case heads just in front of the rim.

Always use new brass and preferably WW or RP. Starline is too hard unless annealed.

Size about 1/4" at a time and wipe the lube off at the junction of the body and neck so it will not dent the case.

Take your time and sneak up on the full length case.

[kjorgy]

I have 2 old lever action Marlins(1895) chambered for 40-65. One has a very tight chamber & always chambers a shell with some force. The other one probably has had some more use & will chamber easily. I think the first gun had its chamber reamed with a reamer with little wear while while the other one reamer's had more wear. Boolit Master said there was more one chambering for 40-65. It must have varied from factory to factory. Is the the modern day chamber like in the Browning hiwalls(BPCR) different? I have a Redding dieset. which dies would work best with the old lever actions? Do the cowboy dies put out bY RCBS make a difference?

[Roundball]

Up date: Trimmed my newly formed cases to trim to maximum length in the Lyman loading manual-2.105. Trimming was not an option as the chamber would not tolerate untrimmed cases. I did notice variation in dimensions from different sources. Used 20grs. of 5744 and Winchester LRP's. Seated the bullet (Lyman 410066 using range scrap)to cover the top grease grove. The rounds chambered easily. One round out of twenty-eight did not fire. An autopsy is pending on this round. Accuracy was promising-nine rounds into three inches @ 100 yards for the final group. The idea of this load was mainly to form brass for annealing and neck sizing. My dies are standard RCBS dies bought ten+ years ago. On the down side the single set trigger stopped working. The fly is jammed up. Thought it was a broken firing pin but noticed the hammer was falling to half cock. Fired the balance with the unset trigger with heavy pull. More later.

[smokeywolf]

Both Starline and Graf's has 40-65 in stock.

[EDG]

The original barrels for .40-65 had a .406 groove diameter. So dies for the early chambers are for smaller bullets.
Modern .40-65s all seem to be .408 groove diameter.

Browning chambers are different from all the other chambers in one respect.
The chamber appears to be reamed straight for about .150 to .200 immediately ahead of the rims.
A Browning chamber also had a straight neck about .500 long where the original drawing appears to be a silly straight taper from the case head to the mouth. You could order Browning specific (custom) dies at one time but they were very expensive. I have been watching Ebay for about 15 years and I have never seen a set for sale. I get by with ordinary dies just fine.
Either RCBS Cowboy or Lymans should be just fine.


I have Lyman, Redding, RCBS Cowboy and 1950s RCBS for the .406 bullets.
They are all very similar internally except for the following:
The seating die for the old style die would not allow you to use a .410 bullet.
The REDDING FL dies measure .416 in the neck sizing section.
The RCBS Cowboy and the Lyman's measure .421

The max bullet dia for the RCBS Cowboy seater die is .412
The max bullet dia for the RCBS old timer seater die is .408
The max bullet dia for the Redding seater is ............. .410
The max bullet dia for the Lyman seater is .............. .412

There is also a Ron Long version (both chambers and dies) though I have no details on it.

Maybe some of the 40-65 guys can chime in. I am sure there are other chambers for this round.

If you have a tight chamber you can either swage the case heads a little or remove the barrel and polish the chamber in a lathe.
It is easy to check the chamber diameter with a set of .001 increment gauge pins and polish it to fit the brass - or you can just modify the brass.
Just make sure a real professional does the work if you modify the barrel.
Some brands of brass like Federal might be small enough to work as is.




I have 2 old lever action Marlins(1895) chambered for 40-65. One has a very tight chamber & always chambers a shell with some force. The other one probably has had some more use & will chamber easily. I think the first gun had its chamber reamed with a reamer with little wear while while the other one reamer's had more wear. Boolit Master said there was more one chambering for 40-65. It must have varied from factory to factory. Is the the modern day chamber like in the Browning hiwalls(BPCR) different? I have a Redding dieset. which dies would work best with the old lever actions? Do the cowboy dies put out bY RCBS make a difference?

[rr2241tx]

Forming 40-65 Win from 45-70 Gov't is greatly facilitated by starting with a Redding Form & Trim die. Just a dab of Imperial Sizing Wax is all it takes. I trim mine with a Lee Quick Trim. Unless you are truly committed to this project, just buy some correctly headstamped Starline 40-65 brass, anneal it and enjoy your HighWall. In a single shot really does not matter what length your brass is just so long as it chambers and is all the same length. A proper 40-65 Win chamber should be 2.09" or thereabouts in your relined barrel and takes 2.08" brass. Starline brass is shipped work hardened. If you are going to shoot cast bullets and black powder you will definitely want to anneal it before loading the first time.

[EDG]

The Redding is a trim die only.
The internal dimensions of the Redding trim die are exactly the same as the Redding FL die so it is a waste of money unless you like trimming cases with a file.
The neck diameter of the Redding trim die is .416 the same size as the Redding FL die.
The Lyman and RCBS FL dies are .421 in the neck so the Redding die does not do anything for you except allow you to trim with a file.

A good form die should be about .435 in the neck.

I have a RCBS 40-65 form die and it measures .466. It does not touch the neck it only squeezes the taper into the base. Unless my die is a mistake it is not worth much either.

[rr2241tx]

All I can tell you about your measurements is I was plagued by cartridges that would stick in the chamber about .15" prior to being fully chambered when I was using a Lyman FL sizing die to make my cases. The Redding F&T reduced that last little bit of the cartridge head and my cartridges now fall into the chamber. May be my imagination, maybe not.

[Roundball]

I had bought several hundred 45-70 cases from Starline some years back before most prices went through the roof. I am not in the place to be buying forming dies and had to make do with the sizing die. Figured out what to do and in so doing lost one case. No dents etc. The 45-70 brass is used to make 11.7x56 brass also. Head stamp would be nice but have to make do with what resources are on hand. If I needed 40-65 brass with correct head stamp such would have been on back order with delivery promised before the end of the century. That's not the situation right now

[marwin95]

Because I have two 40-65s, and each is different I have tried different resizing methods. One rifle's chamber fits better(length) with resized Starline brass. The oyher uses 40-65 brass. Annealed brass, well lubricated, and a Redding40-65 Trim mold works very well to resize. I have tried several other methods and found this best so far.

[EDG]

It is not your imagination. If you check a lot of dies you will find that the open end of the die (case head end) some times varies .001 to .003.
If you get a larger die it will not size the base of the case enough. If you get a small one it might make cases work even in an original chamber.
The first set of RCBS .40-65 cowboy that I bought on ebay had been altered. I asked the seller what the heck was going on.
He admitted that he got the dies from a friend that had a .40-65 Remington Rolling block. I checked the die and found that .050 had been cut off the base. He said the original owner did that so he could close the breech block on his RRB. So he was pushing the case taper back more with the modified die and he might have been reducing the base a tiny bit too.



All I can tell you about your measurements is I was plagued by cartridges that would stick in the chamber about .15" prior to being fully chambered when I was using a Lyman FL sizing die to make my cases. The Redding F&T reduced that last little bit of the cartridge head and my cartridges now fall into the chamber. May be my imagination, maybe not.

[Dale53]

I shot Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette for fifteen years. My caliber of choice was a 40/65. I started out with a new C. Sharps 1875. I ultimately got a Browning High Wall. When forming cases (my preference was Winchester 45/70 brass) I found that I needed to resize the base of the case (next to the rim) more than my dies would allow me to do. I removed the decapping stem from my full length die. I put a washer on top of the shell holder and pushed the case into the die until the rim of the case was flush with the die base. I then used a knock out punch to remove the case from the die.

It sounds difficult but it is not at all hard to do. You only have to do it once and it truly solved the problem of the case being hard to chamber. Then, after the cases were fire formed I was ready to compete. After case forming you use the dies in the normal manner.

My Browning was super accurate (as were most every Browning was in competent hands). I have shot groups at 500 yards off a bench and using a 20 power scope for testing that were under 8" (ten shot groups). And yeah, in front of witnesses.

This little trick with the full length die was known to a number of my fellow competitors but all were not sharing. I fully believe in sharing all of the little tips to make things easier for EVERYONE. Winchester brass is malleable right out of the box and had the greatest capacity of all of the popular brass. Starline is my brass pick for all of my handgun calibers but I much prefer Winchester for 45/70 and 40/65 for capacity as well as malleability.

FWIW
Dale53

[rr2241tx]

Thank you EDG. In retrospect, your explanation makes a lot of sense because I really never felt much resistance when running problem children through the F&T die if they'd been through the FL die first. I have used about all the available kinds of brass for 40-65 and 45-70 and have found that in the end it was all about a wash so long as the cases were all the same length, weight and brand. I'm currently using WCC line throwing cases dated 1967 as both 45-70 and reformed to 40-65 Win. Makes it easy to identify my brass.

[DocSavage]

I had a Browning Hi Wall rebarreled to 40/65 and made brass from Remington 45/70 brass. After making a couple of hundred cases using a Redding f+t die Starline advertised 40/65 brass.
Then I got lucky and picked up 140 rounds of PMC 40/65 ammo. This was my 2nd adventure in reforming brass first time 30'06 to 7x57 Mauser.

[SgtDog0311]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

[EDG]

I am not surprised your cases were mashed down that far. There is one option to think about. RCBS trim dies are usually .010 larger than the FL dies in the neck area only. However they are very expensive and I would call RCBS and verify the neck ID before I buy one.

The Redding die is a trim die or it might also be called a form and trim die.

I have had the Redding trim die and two Redding FL resizing dies. They were exactly the same size inside so you get no forming advantage. The trim die does let you trim the brass with a file though.

If you are after a real form and trim die you might check with CH. He offers the dies in his catalog but call him and ask what size it is inside before you buy one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The original barrels for .40-65 had a .406 groove diameter. So dies for the early chambers are for smaller bullets.
Modern .40-65s all seem to be .408 groove diameter.

Browning chambers are different from all the other chambers in one respect.
The chamber appears to be reamed straight for about .150 to .200 immediately ahead of the rims.
A Browning chamber also had a straight neck about .500 long where the original drawing appears to be a silly straight taper from the case head to the mouth. You could order Browning specific (custom) dies at one time but they were very expensive. I have been watching Ebay for about 15 years and I have never seen a set for sale. I get by with ordinary dies just fine.
Either RCBS Cowboy or Lymans should be just fine.


I have Lyman, Redding, RCBS Cowboy and 1950s RCBS for the .406 bullets.
They are all very similar internally except for the following:
The seating die for the old style die would not allow you to use a .410 bullet.
The REDDING FL dies measure .416 in the neck sizing section.
The RCBS Cowboy and the Lyman's measure .421

The max bullet dia for the RCBS Cowboy seater die is .412
The max bullet dia for the RCBS old timer seater die is .408
The max bullet dia for the Redding seater is ............. .410
The max bullet dia for the Lyman seater is .............. .412

There is also a Ron Long version (both chambers and dies) though I have no details on it.

Maybe some of the 40-65 guys can chime in. I am sure there are other chambers for this round.

If you have a tight chamber you can either swage the case heads a little or remove the barrel and polish the chamber in a lathe.
It is easy to check the chamber diameter with a set of .001 increment gauge pins and polish it to fit the brass - or you can just modify the brass.
Just make sure a real professional does the work if you modify the barrel.
Some brands of brass like Federal might be small enough to work as is.


Marlin used to term the .40-65WCF the .40-60 Marlin. I have their table of 1909 showing that their groove diameter was .397 and rifling was .0025in. deep, adding up to .402 groove diameter. That is described as being for the 95 rifle (which unlike some had a "hard steel", presumably nickel steel, barrel), and I don't know if Marlin-Ballards were the same. But it seems unlikely that they wouldn't be. Shilen make barrel blanks with .403 grooves. With a bullet of this diameter thick brass would surely be no disadvantage, and perhaps an advantage.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

You might get away with grinding down the top of a shellholder to drive the case in further on the final pass. Or make up a mandrel with 13/32in. rod or tubing (e.g. the K&S tubing which is common on eBay) and rotate the ring against a sharp carpenter's rebate plane. You could do it by hand or hold the mandrel in an electric screwdriver.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanley-75-Bull-Nose-Rebate-Plane-/291568264409?hash=item43e2d2a4d9

[smokeywolf]

I've just picked up a Marlin 1895 in 40-65 and having some of the same issues mentioned here. Cowboy dies are not taking the reformed Starline down enough just in front of the rim, with a ring visible right at the start of the web.

Reading some of the cures and but I'm not familiar with the Redding F&T, what is the full name of that die? Googling Redding F&T is got giving me any answers.

Another thing I was surprised at when reforming: when I've got all I can get with the Cowboy sizing die I find the outside diameter of my case neck is squeezed down all the way to .420. I didn't expect that. My bore is .401 and my grooves are .408. Didn't expect the neck to get sized down that far.

Although I would be much more inclined to purchase the 40-65 Starline brass from Starline or Midway, if you're dead set on reforming 45-70 to chamber in your Marlin, from what I've read in "Ken Waters' Pet Loads" and also on the internet, a Lyman X-17 shell holder will get the base of the 45-70 far enough into your sizing die to squeeze that last few thousandths of fat base down so that it will chamber.

[country gent]

There is a small area that is not sized at all with a reloaders press and 7/8"X14 dies. you loose 1/8" to te shell holder and about .050-.060 to the radious in the dies mouth. Several ways to cure this small area depends on how bad it actually is. If just a small amount , the die can be faced down removing the radious and some ground of the shell holder. this can gain another .030-.080 depth on the case with this combination. Another more sure way is use the die in an arbhor press. You need a die with large screw decapping stem hole and a 7?8"14 nut. Put the case in the die and press to rim with the ahrbor press then screw nut on about 1/2 way and with a smooth rod turn it over and push case out. Once sized down fully the case mouth dia can be regulated thru the sizing ide, case body taper and how deep you run the case into the dies. Start out around 1/2" above shell holder size a case and measure case mouth dia. then lower die 1 turn size and remeasure, this tells you how much 1 turn changes case mouth dia. you can now figure how many turns or keep going trial and error to where you want to be.

[SgtDog0311]

EDG, thanks for the explanation. Must have been tired last night since I now see the full name was identified on the first page. I’m not really looking for trim die. I use a Wilson for trimming. Even there I’m afraid to order a case holder without sending them some fire formed cases.
Still, I wouldn’t mind a larger neck to start out with so I’ll check with RCBS on the size of their F&T. Thanks!

Ballistics, I’ve sized deeper with the washer trick after getting as far as the shellholder would allow. I DID not go as far as die-meeting-rim yet. May give that a try next. Got as far as the lever closing without too much resistance but I still see space between rim and barrel face. Hope I don’t have headspace issues – but that is another problem to explore.

Smokeywolf, I’m not at all dead set on reforming. I’d really rather have the proper headstamp in fact. Got a friend sending me a handful to try before I order whichever works. One thing I’ve read is that the reformed 45-70 allows you to fill your chamber with brass whereas Starline’s 40-65 falls a little short after being fireformed the first time. From their own measurements on the site they look to fall a little short out of the box. Can’t vouch for any of it in person. Soon as I have a couple pieces I’ll fire form one and do a pound cast with it. I’ll know what length I actually need after that. Gonna pick up a Lyman X-17 on my way through Sandpoint later this week. The brass should be at my mailbox when I get back so I’ll report how they worked out.

cg, Neck sizing as you describe will be the rule after I get there.

Thanks for the answers and input.

[smokeywolf]

SgtDog0311, Starline brass has the reputation of being a little on the stiff side right from the factory. Most folks shooting black powder or black powder pressures find it best to anneal the brass first.

[SgtDog0311]

Always anneal smokeywolf... be a good reminder to do the next batch for sure. Thanks!