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Wally
08-13-2015, 12:40 PM
Read many posts how other shoot these with no leading. I tried two loads-----.41 Magnum 210 SWC-TL 6.5 Promo and .44 magnum 240 SWC-TL 7.0 Promo. Both give a muzzle velocity of 1,050 FPS in my Model 57 & 29's. Very accurate with no indication of high pressure: these are "medium loads". The bullets were unsized and coated heavy with Lee Liquid Alox and some Carnuba wax. Looking into the barrels of the two pistols there was a "nasty" ring of lead 1.5" from the breech----with virtually no leading past that point. The leading was not easy to remove--a bronze brush and solvent didn't make a "dent"... had to use a Lewis Lead remover and large flakes of lead were removed----that is not good. Using "regular" cast bullets this doesn't happen. The bullets "as cast" measure .411"+ & .431"+ respectively.

Using a Chrony I determined the Std deviations to be low with s small spread. As mentioned they were very accurate. I really dislike the fact that I get the leading...however it seems to get to a point and doesn't "grow" (ie get worse. Also shot the 240 SWC-TL in a Ruger SBHK---did the very same thing.

Any ideas?

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 12:49 PM
I'm big supporter of Lee's TL molds, but the last three I got ( in three different calibers) were all undersized badly. Even sent the back and still got the same undersized mold. I "Lee-Mented" them and still couldn't get them to hit my rifling. They just skidded down the barrel. Sad because I had an older TL430-240-SWC mold that was awesome. But the newer ones just seem to no be large enough. I switched to tradition lube versions and still tumbled lubed and got excellent results. Where you are having leading at in your barrel, its seems like the bullet is undersized and the flame is passing the bullet and melting the bullet. But sure more experianced and knowledgeable members will post on it.

But back in 2005, when I originally started casting for my 41 mag NMBH, I got a TL 410-210-SWC double cavity mold that was very good. But today its a **** shoot. Well maybe with less odds, when talking about the TL molds. If I had to make a guess of why is because the TL molds lube bands are thinner and too close together. I think the older design has the lube bands a "tad" bit larger and father apart.

Jerry

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 12:51 PM
Are you casting these bullets? If so what alloy are you using and are they gas checked? I always run mine through a lube sizer. Sometimes just to lube them. I don't know if changing the powder you use.would make a difference or not. It might be the style of the bullets.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 12:54 PM
I would say to size them and see what happens.

Wally
08-13-2015, 01:01 PM
As mentioned the "as cast" size comes out to .411"+ & .431"+ in the .41 & .44 Calibers...so they are plenty big enough. With standard cast bullets I size them to .410" & .430" respectively...so the TL bullets are in fact bigger in size.


I'm big supporter of Lee's TL molds, but the last three I got ( in three different calibers) were all undersized badly. Even sent the back and still got the same undersized mold. I "Lee-Mented" them and still couldn't get them to hit my rifling. They just skidded down the barrel. Sad because I had an older TL430-240-SWC mold that was awesome. But the newer ones just seem to no be large enough. I switched to tradition lube versions and still tumbled lubed and got excellent results. Where you are having leading at in your barrel, its seems like the bullet is undersized and the flame is passing the bullet and melting the bullet. But sure more experianced and knowledgeable members will post on it.

But back in 2005, when I originally started casting for my 41 mag NMBH, I got a TL 410-210-SWC double cavity mold that was very good. But today its a **** shoot. Well maybe with less odds, when talking about the TL molds. If I had to make a guess of why is because the TL molds lube bands are thinner and too close together. I think the older design has the lube bands a "tad" bit larger and father apart.

Jerry

Wally
08-13-2015, 01:03 PM
Yes. WW alloy that I drop into water from the mold. Shooting regular style cast bullets with the same powder charge--they don't lead up my barrels.


Are you casting these bullets? If so what alloy are you using and are they gas checked? I always run mine through a lube sizer. Sometimes just to lube them. I don't know if changing the powder you use.would make a difference or not. It might be the style of the bullets.

Wally
08-13-2015, 01:04 PM
I guess that it would not hurt to do so--however it makes no sense to me to make them smaller to prevent leading.


I would say to size them and see what happens.

jonp
08-13-2015, 01:08 PM
What does your barrel slug? If your std cast are sized smaller and dont lead that may tell you something. Also, are you double lubeing or once lubeing? Try a small batch of BLL.

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 01:13 PM
I still say the lube bands on the new models are smaller and don't take the heat and you are getting flame cutting at any size. Your drive band might be larger enough, but those lube bands are melting. IMHO. Will be watching this thead to find out what other will say.

Jerry

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 01:22 PM
I have a few TL moulds but don't use them much. I stick with the more traditional bullets with bigger lube grooves and use #2alloy for cartridge ammo. I use the WW melt for my Black Powder weapons. Both roundball and conicals. I do run some of the conicals through my lube sizer using SPG for lube. Some .458 and .546. The .458 for my 1874 Sharps and the .546 for a original m1860 Spencer carbine in 56-56 and for a M1859 Sharps Infantry rifle in .54cal. I just prefer the bigger lube grooves over the tumble lube type.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 01:24 PM
I use my TL moulds more for semiautomatics and haven't really had much leading problem.

Wally
08-13-2015, 02:03 PM
.409" in the Model 57 and .429" in the Model 29...The Ruger SBHK .430"



What does your barrel slug? If your std cast are sized smaller and dont lead that may tell you something. Also, are you double lubeing or once lubeing? Try a small batch of BLL.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 02:10 PM
I still run the TLBullets through a sizer first then lube.

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 03:01 PM
Ok, I looked at some old notebooks I had from way back. One article I got and made notes on stated that lube does two things, slipperiness of the bullet and helping in the seal. One author theorized that a TL design needed the thick LLA instead of a solid based lube to help with the seal more and to prevent flame cutting.

After rereading your original post you stated you had a low SD. So I'm going to lead toward the seal being there. The lead is from the bullet being oversized and sizing itself in the first part of the barrel. But this is on the "hunch" that there is no skid marks on the bullets (if recovered) and no lead on the rest of the barrel. This could also explain the reason for the heavy based traditional lube band design doesn't lead those areas. Just my theory.

Have tried to tumble lube the bullets with straight LLA, size, then tumble lube again? Your results would be interesting.

Jerry

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:19 PM
That sounds about right. That's why I alway size first to the proper book diameter then lube. I also make sure I'm not pushing them too fast for whatever alloy I'm using.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:20 PM
I did learn then hard way.

Wally
08-13-2015, 03:28 PM
Of course no big deal to size then lube and see what happens. I hope that I am pleasantly surprised. However stop and think---one huge advantage of TL bullets is that you don't need to size them...so if I have to size them...why do I need them?


I did learn then hard way.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:31 PM
Of course no big deal to size then lube and see what happens. I hope that I am pleasantly surprised. However stop and think---one huge advantage of TL bullets is that you don't need to size them...so if I have to size them...why do I need them?
I meant that when I started using TL bullets my alloy was way too soft and I was pushing them way too fast. I ended up with a bad leading problem.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:38 PM
As for sizing if your mould throws them out too big and you have a tight force cone in your revolvers you can end up with the problems you have. When casting bullets more times than not size does matter. Have you been able to recover any of the bullets you have shot and take a look at them?

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 03:40 PM
If the fit is good, and then the lube is correct, you should see no or very little leading if that is the problem. Then move on to hardness. Sometimes, well actually most of the time, its just not one variable to that needs to be adjusted. Addressing each one at a time helped me learn the effects each has on casting and shooting. Kind of like tearing down an engine and learning how it works.

Yes, kind of defeats the purpose of Lee's TL molds, to have to size them. But you still save time in lubing them. :)

Jerry

gwpercle
08-13-2015, 03:44 PM
Wally,
Try a few boolits just air cooled, not water hardened. I know it doesn't sound right , but sometimes too hard might be a problem. It's an easy test...might be interesting to see results.
Gary

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:44 PM
Just remember when you tumble lube an unsized bullet you are adding a little more to the final diameter with the lube. That's why I size first then lube then check the final diameter when it's dry to see what it is.

Wally
08-13-2015, 03:53 PM
I use quenched WW alloy and I shoot them at 1,050 FPS...with regular lubed cast bullets i have no leading problems.


I meant that when I started using TL bullets my alloy was way too soft and I was pushing them way too fast. I ended up with a bad leading problem.

Wally
08-13-2015, 03:54 PM
I would think it's worth a try...you never know until you try.


Wally,
Try a few boolits just air cooled, not water hardened. I know it doesn't sound right , but sometimes too hard might be a problem. It's an easy test...might be interesting to see results.
Gary

Wally
08-13-2015, 03:57 PM
Yews, I have experimented w/ TL bullets years ago--straight LLA--sized & relubed...they leaded up even worse...so I gave up on them. Then I heard about the LLA & JPW so I decided to give that a try.


Ok, I looked at some old notebooks I had from way back. One article I got and made notes on stated that lube does two things, slipperiness of the bullet and helping in the seal. One author theorized that a TL design needed the thick LLA instead of a solid based lube to help with the seal more and to prevent flame cutting.

After rereading your original post you stated you had a low SD. So I'm going to lead toward the seal being there. The lead is from the bullet being oversized and sizing itself in the first part of the barrel. But this is on the "hunch" that there is no skid marks on the bullets (if recovered) and no lead on the rest of the barrel. This could also explain the reason for the heavy based traditional lube band design doesn't lead those areas. Just my theory.

Have tried to tumble lube the bullets with straight LLA, size, then tumble lube again? Your results would be interesting.

Jerry

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 03:59 PM
Walley,
That is so very true. That's how we all learn. I've been shooting and reloading for decades and I'm still learning something new everyday. In some ways I'm still a rookie.

Wally
08-13-2015, 03:59 PM
I finds I have to bell the case mouths a bit more using TL bullets vs std lubed...if you don't the case mouth will scrape off the coating.....which cannot be good.


Just remember when you tumble lube an unsized bullet you are adding a little more to the final diameter with the lube. That's why I size first then lube then check the final diameter when it's dry to see what it is.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 04:05 PM
Part of that is due to not sizing them. Even when sized to proper diameter and lubed the mouth will have to be belled but not as much as you have to do now.

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 04:05 PM
Yews, I have experimented w/ TL bullets years ago--straight LLA--sized & relubed...they leaded up even worse...so I gave up on them. Then I heard about the LLA & JPW so I decided to give that a try.

That is what I'm using now, White Label's 45/45/10 and BLL. But I actually dip lube with half and half 45/45/10 and Xlox.

Still looking forward to others responses.

Jerry

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 04:08 PM
I try to keep the final diameter of my TL bullets no more than .001 over bore diameter of the particular weapon I'm loading at the time.

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 04:14 PM
I finds I have to bell the case mouths a bit more using TL bullets vs std lubed...if you don't the case mouth will scrape off the coating.....which cannot be good.

I lightly TL the bullets first, then size. I get a minute amount of lube. Same even with dip lubing. I use one drop of lube to 3 bullets (I do 60 at a time) when lightly TLing. I also hardly get any scraped lube when I reload.

Jerry

bangerjim
08-13-2015, 04:15 PM
If you really want to address leading, try powder coating. I dumped all grease-based lubes and switched EVERYTHING (microgroove & standard groove) to PC over 2 years ago and have had zero leading in any of the many cal's I cast/load/shoot.

I even have 3 no lube groove molds that are specifically for PC.

Read about it on the alternate coatings section and give it a try. PC does NOT compensate for severely under-sized boolits, but you can gain 2-3 thou with it! Make you are sizing for the bore size you need, not just as-dropped size from the mold. Of the MANY molds I have, only 2 can I successfully shoot as-dropped.

And you get no grease smoke or sticky boolits in the summer...or EVER.

I size ALL my boolits!

banger

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 04:19 PM
If you really want to address leading, try powder coating. I dumped all grease-based lubes and switched EVERYTHING (microgroove & standard groove) to PC over 2 years ago and have had zero leading in any of the many cal's I cast/load/shoot.

I even have 3 no lube groove molds that are specifically for PC.

Read about it on the alternate coatings section and give it a try. PC does NOT compensate for severely under-sized boolits, but you can gain 2-3 thou with it! Make you are sizing for the bore size you need, not just as-dropped size from the mold. Of the MANY molds I have, only 2 can I successfully shoot as-dropped.

And you get no grease smoke or sticky boolits in the summer...or EVER.

I size ALL my boolits!

banger

How is PCing TL bullets? I would think the coating might fill the bands completely.
Jerry

runfiverun
08-13-2015, 05:48 PM
if it did it wouldn't matter, the P/C is the coating that keeps lead away from your barrels.
kinda.
you still have to follow the basic rules of cast or you'll still get leading.
it only saves your bacon if you have a lube problem.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 06:05 PM
If you really want to address leading, try powder coating. I dumped all grease-based lubes and switched EVERYTHING (microgroove & standard groove) to PC over 2 years ago and have had zero leading in any of the many cal's I cast/load/shoot.

I even have 3 no lube groove molds that are specifically for PC.

Read about it on the alternate coatings section and give it a try. PC does NOT compensate for severely under-sized boolits, but you can gain 2-3 thou with it! Make you are sizing for the bore size you need, not just as-dropped size from the mold. Of the MANY molds I have, only 2 can I successfully shoot as-dropped.

And you get no grease smoke or sticky boolits in the summer...or EVER.

I size ALL my boolits!

banger
Would that include moly coating?

bangerjim
08-13-2015, 07:11 PM
Would that include moly coating?


NO!! Moly coating is just sort of pounding moly powder into onto the lead. I have never had any success with it at all and it is the dirtiest messiest coating I have ever seen!

I do use moly in grease for antique clock springs. GREAT stuff.......better than graphite!

bangerjim
08-13-2015, 07:13 PM
How is PCing TL bullets? I would think the coating might fill the bands completely.
Jerry

No big whoop! As said. I cast and shoot several designs of boolits with NO lube grooves at all, so if the microgrooves fill in, who cares! I have at least 5 MG molds from my mule snot coating days and they PC and shoot great.

banger

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 07:15 PM
NO!! Moly coating is just sort of pounding moly powder into onto the lead. I have never had any success with it at all and it is the dirtiest messiest coating I have ever seen!

I do use moly in grease for antique clock springs. GREAT stuff.......better than graphite!
I'll save it then for those bullets we don't speak of. Thanks for the info

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 07:15 PM
Good, being in an apartment the DTBB method sounds promising.

lobowolf761
08-13-2015, 07:17 PM
Moly grease is good for that.

bangerjim
08-13-2015, 07:19 PM
Good, being in an apartment the DTBB method sounds promising.


Just be sure you do NOT use you kitchen food oven!!!! Put your toaster oven used ONLY for PC out on your balcony to bake. Fumes are not good! And an oven vent hood is NOT considered good ventilation for our purposes. Baking PC leaves behind coatings in the oven and you do not want to ever use the oven for food prep.

banger

Lefty Red
08-13-2015, 07:38 PM
Of course! I'm single, but not undomesticated! LOL

kaptain kartridge
08-13-2015, 07:42 PM
Does anyone loading TL bullets have the problem of the lube accumulating in the die, changing the bullet seat depth?

Motor
08-13-2015, 08:05 PM
I use 4 different TL moulds. The only one I ever had trouble with leading is the 9mm but this had more to do with alloy and pressure than any other factor. After I got my bhn up to 15 all my leading went away.

I don't size any of my auto pistol TL boolits. I once had a mold closing issue that I didn't notice and some of the boolits dropped at .360" on the big side of the oval. They passed the plunk test so I loaded them. My 9mm Ruger slugged .355" and these shot just as good as the "correct" boolits which typically drop between .357" and .358"

I too am disappointed in my last 2 Lee moulds. A 210gr .410" and a .501" 440gr. The 41cal mould drops .410 at the very largest. The .501" dropped .499" I ended up using aircraft "600 mph tape" on the mould faces.

Do you guys think that the Harbor freight red PC will bring the .499" boolits up in diameter enough to size them .501"

Motor

tazman
08-13-2015, 09:08 PM
With the PCing I was doing using the harbor freight red, I was getting right at a .002 increase in diameter but it wasn't entirely consistent. Sometimes it would be a bit more on one side than the other. Sizing the finished boolit took care of all the issues.

Motor
08-13-2015, 09:33 PM
Then it looks like the foil tape may have to stay because it only drops .499 without it. I use a .501" size die. I guess I'll just have to try some. I use A-Lox on them now and it does ok but they do paint the muzzle brake with lead. I think since the boolit is nice and big it won't be too difficult standing them up to bake.

I'm hoping the PC cures both the size issue and the muzzle brake painting issue. Of course I have to admit having the big RED 440gr in the 500's will raise the cool factor a lot. :)

Motor

Wally
08-13-2015, 09:39 PM
Yes, you can fix that by wiping off the nose/tip of the bullet to remove the coating--then it will not accumulate on the seating screw.....or tumble again with a light coating of Liquid wax and let it dry...


Does anyone loading TL bullets have the problem of the lube accumulating in the die, changing the bullet seat depth?

gloob
08-14-2015, 04:17 AM
The leading near the chamber is a possible sign of undersized bullets that eventually bump up. Despite what the bullets are dropping at, the TL bullets are more fragile than regular lube-groove "solid" bullets. The fact that your regular cast bullets are not fouling is another hint.

Pull some assembled bullets and measure the base. The case might be crushing the little TL grooves.

Anytime I am getting fouling, I am checking for bullet > or = to bore at every stage until the bullet exits the muzzle. Somewhere along the line, bullet size is almost always the problem. Measuring your bullets as dropped and/or slugging a bore is only scratching the surface.

If your first instinct is to change alloy or lube or to intentionally make your bullets smaller, you are skipping ahead and making your life more difficult. This is 3 pages of the blind leading the blind.

Lefty Red
08-14-2015, 08:19 AM
This is 3 pages of the blind leading the blind.

Deleted, cause I would be in timeout if you could read what I wrote.

dudel
08-14-2015, 09:35 AM
How is PCing TL bullets? I would think the coating might fill the bands completely.
Jerry

Shouldn't be a problem. The make boolits with NO grooves specifically for PC.

Lefty Red
08-14-2015, 09:43 AM
Shouldn't be a problem. The make boolits with NO grooves specifically for PC.

That is what banger was saying. Thanks.
Jerry

Wally
08-14-2015, 12:13 PM
That may well be ...the tiny driving bands might well be reduced in size from the case crushing them. I harder alloy might help, but I prefer not to go that route.



The leading near the chamber is a possible sign of undersized bullets that eventually bump up. Despite what the bullets are dropping at, the TL bullets are more fragile than regular lube-groove "solid" bullets. The fact that your regular cast bullets are not fouling is another hint.

Pull some assembled bullets and measure the base. The case might be crushing the little TL grooves.

Anytime I am getting fouling, I am checking for bullet > or = to bore at every stage until the bullet exits the muzzle. Somewhere along the line, bullet size is almost always the problem. Measuring your bullets as dropped and/or slugging a bore is only scratching the surface.

If your first instinct is to change alloy or lube or to intentionally make your bullets smaller, you are skipping ahead and making your life more difficult. This is 3 pages of the blind leading the blind.

mdi
08-14-2015, 12:23 PM
No need to water drop those WW alloy bullets. Try some air cooled, they'll prolly upset and reduce leading...

gwpercle
08-14-2015, 01:16 PM
No need to water drop those WW alloy bullets. Try some air cooled, they'll prolly upset and reduce leading...
That's what I was thinking.
I used to shoot ACWW in all handgun and low velocity rifle, started cutting it 50-50 with pure lead (free WW supply dried up) and found out it was a better mix. Better accuracy in handguns and just as accurate with GC rifle boolits, no leading observed and it makes a darn good hunting boolit too.
Softer might be just the ticket! I'm starting to believe that fit is king and hardness may be over rated
Gary

Motor
08-14-2015, 03:45 PM
Hardness has its place but I have to agree fit is #1 even if it's achieved by obstruating. (Stupid spell check. "obstruction" really) After reading that I thought I'd get flamed for sure.

This also why I'm in the bigger is better club but with revolves I have found size matters as in if they are too big they don't fit in the cylinder.

Motor

blikseme300
08-14-2015, 04:39 PM
That's what I was thinking.
I used to shoot ACWW in all handgun and low velocity rifle, started cutting it 50-50 with pure lead (free WW supply dried up) and found out it was a better mix. Better accuracy in handguns and just as accurate with GC rifle boolits, no leading observed and it makes a darn good hunting boolit too.
Softer might be just the ticket! I'm starting to believe that fit is king and hardness may be over rated
Gary

Fit is indeed king but the size can be negatively impacted by seating into the brass. Measuring the CB before seating is good but pulling a CB after seating and measuring is better.

Hardness alone is not the gold-standard indication of the suitability of the alloy as toughness is very important. Measuring hardness alone is like trying to determine the volume of an unknown vessel by measuring pressure.

I have seen CB's that have broken during sizing as they were from hard but brittle alloy and were slightly bent before sizing. In the die the small axial displacement caused them to break. The hardness was 20-22bhn but these CB's would snap when trying to bend them. No idea what the alloy was but they were not suitable for shooting so ended up as fishing weights.

I use TL CB's for a few rifle calibers (.30 - .45) and have found that if care is not taken during casting in respect of alloy and temperature that not all the bands will be at the same nominal size once cooled. (Think Coke bottle shaped.) Proper fill-out can be deceptive to the eye and this does lead to poor accuracy and leading.

bangerjim
08-14-2015, 05:49 PM
I use TL CB's for a few rifle calibers (.30 - .45) and have found that if care is not taken during casting in respect of alloy and temperature that not all the bands will be at the same nominal size once cooled. (Think Coke bottle shaped.) Proper fill-out can be deceptive to the eye and this does lead to poor accuracy and leading.

I have seen that. And I though it was just me (coke-head!!!!) :shock:

On really looooooong 30's, I have seen a few drop with a curvaceous shape. Definitely could cause leading if loaded and shot. Even PC probably will not cure that one. Do-over time.

banger

Wally
08-15-2015, 08:20 AM
Had a few old timers e-mail me...probably best not to use TL bullets in the Magnum calibers even with lighter loads due to leading issues. I'll just have to use my "regular" lube groove bullets. Those of you that don't have issues w/ TL bullets are most fortunate.

Motor
08-15-2015, 10:09 AM
Wally. That's up to you but according to your description I wouldn't say you have a leading problem.

You said they are accurate and it does not accumulate. To me that means they are working.

You probably could get them to run a little cleaner with some "adjustments" / tinkering but if you can shoot them all day and maintain accuracy you really don't have a problem.

Motor

mdi
08-15-2015, 11:20 AM
That's what I was thinking.
I used to shoot ACWW in all handgun and low velocity rifle, started cutting it 50-50 with pure lead (free WW supply dried up) and found out it was a better mix. Better accuracy in handguns and just as accurate with GC rifle boolits, no leading observed and it makes a darn good hunting boolit too.
Softer might be just the ticket! I'm starting to believe that fit is king and hardness may be over rated
Gary

Yepppp....

NuJudge
08-15-2015, 11:36 AM
Does anyone loading TL bullets have the problem of the lube accumulating in the die, changing the bullet seat depth?

Yes, so I got Dillon seat dies, which can be disassembled without losing adjustment.

I pin gauged a new Model 29's cylinder throats recently, and they were all .428". I wonder if the original poster has small throats also, to go with his .429" barrel groove diameter.

TXGunNut
08-15-2015, 05:36 PM
Yes, so I got Dillon seat dies, which can be disassembled without losing adjustment.

I pin gauged a new Model 29's cylinder throats recently, and they were all .428". I wonder if the original poster has small throats also, to go with his .429" barrel groove diameter.

Good point! I'll also go along with skipping the water quench for most pistol boolits. I also size every cast boolit but realize that some may not need it. I think this step, even with TL designs, ensures uniformity.
Rule of thumb, leading starting near the breach is not a lube issue.

Wally
08-16-2015, 07:51 AM
Motor & mdi.....I will cast up some more .41 & .44 TL SWCs and air cool them. Will shoot to see if that solves the leading issue. Just used my Outers Foul Out II and was surprised how much lead was on the rod...all the first 2 ~ 3" from the breach.

Wally
08-16-2015, 01:40 PM
I cast up a batch of cast bullets with the Lee .44 Cal 240 SWC-TL: WW metal and air cooled ACWW. They measure .4305~.431"..none I measured were smaller or larger than that, so I won't size them. They do cast very well and easily drop out of the mold. Will use 7.0 of Promo in the .44 Mag to see if I get any leading...if I do I'll sell/trade it.

gloob
08-16-2015, 09:29 PM
That may well be ...the tiny driving bands might well be reduced in size from the case crushing them. I harder alloy might help, but I prefer not to go that route.
Well, there are plenty of routes, and none of them start with making your alloy harder!? That might help, but how about pull and measure some bullets, first? Mucking around in the dark works fine for a lot of old timers. Figuring out what the issue is might give you more options.

For example, you can decrease or eliminate case swaging by sorting cases. Or you can eliminate it with a custom expander. Not that I would start there, anymore than I would make my alloy harder. Did I mention you can pull and measure your bullets?

One other thing to check is your crimp and your case combo. Chambers/cylinders tend to get tighter at the case mouth. It's possible that a cast bullet and case combo can be so big that the crimp can't open up all the way, and it will swage the bullet as the gun fires and leave lead fouling just ahead of the chamber, like you describe. Not that I think this is the case for your gun, because you mentioned that regular cast bullets don't foul. They way to rule this out would be to barely remove the flare - no crimp - and do this with a variety of your brass and make sure they all chamber. If they don't, you might have to sort out and start with just your thinnest brass and see if those will shoot clean.


Had a few old timers e-mail me...probably best not to use TL bullets in the Magnum calibers even with lighter loads due to leading issues. I'll just have to use my "regular" lube groove bullets.
If that's what you want to hear, if you want to try only the few things you understand and have already done before, if you want to fail and trade off your TL mold and bullets, then hurry up and do it, already. :)

It's plain as day to me. If the case might be swaging your bullet, you check it. If it IS swaging the bullet, you don't make your alloy harder, you fix the case. With an expander. Because if your cases are swaging your TL bullets enough to foul, they are also swaging your harder TL bullets and all your other bullets, too. Because the very base of the bullet is what is affected by case swaging the most. Even if it's not enough to compromise the driving band and cause fouling, it could still possibly cause accuracy issues and is something that you probably want to eliminate. To be sure, the case swaging issue stems from your SIZING DIE. But the expander is the best way to fix it, for various reasons.

If it's not case swaging, and if it really is the fact that magnum calibers can't shoot TL bullets even at normal pressure/velocity, then this is something that needs further investigation for the sake of science. Because that doesn't make any sense.

44man
08-17-2015, 09:40 AM
I shoot TL boolits to the max all the time. But NO Alox for me in any form. I use Felix lube or MML.
You might have a small throat issue that can be fixed or some thread choke that can also be fixed.
Hard lead does NOT cause leading. You need fit to the grooves so if you size your boolits seating or through under size throats, you need to fix.
Did I tell you I hate Alox? The only time I got leading was with the skunk snot.

Motor
08-17-2015, 10:18 AM
I use A-Lox on everything I cast and don't have any problems. When I run out I'm thinking of trying 45-45-10 just for cost savings. Probably before that time I'll end up buying another Lee push through size die and get another bottle of A-Lox to use.

I even use the A-Lox on non-tumble lube boolits. Again no problems. Do I love the stuff, no, but it does work.

Motor

44man
08-17-2015, 11:46 AM
I use A-Lox on everything I cast and don't have any problems. When I run out I'm thinking of trying 45-45-10 just for cost savings. Probably before that time I'll end up buying another Lee push through size die and get another bottle of A-Lox to use.

I even use the A-Lox on non-tumble lube boolits. Again no problems. Do I love the stuff, no, but it does work.

Motor
I shoot high velocity loads for hunting only. But try 45-45-10, it is sure better.
A funny story for you. Had a guy driving me nuts to load .38's for him. I did the work with good lube and he was happy but the last time I TL'd his boolits. He never came back! I was not making money from the work and was glad to get out from under it.
You need to temper Alox with waxes, it burns in the bore. 50-50 will work. Alox is an undercoating and will not keep your car from rusting. All of mine with Zebart rusted away but Rusty Jones lasted forever. I don't know who decided it was a boolit lube!
I gave away many bottles but keep one to ward off pests.
Replace Alox with a high flash point oil like Safflower or peanut oil mixed with beeswax. Add some lanolin and soap.

Wally
08-29-2015, 08:30 AM
FWIW...I have Lyman three expander stems in the .44 caliber---both measure .423". I surmise that the case is swaging down the .430"+ TL bullets resizing them and that's the cause of the leading issue. I need to find an expander stem that is at .427"+ and I bet that eth leading issue will be resolved...and Idea where I might find one?

44man
08-29-2015, 10:08 AM
FWIW...I have Lyman three expander stems in the .44 caliber---both measure .423". I surmise that the case is swaging down the .430"+ TL bullets resizing them and that's the cause of the leading issue. I need to find an expander stem that is at .427"+ and I bet that eth leading issue will be resolved...and Idea where I might find one?
Wrong thing to do with a revolver, Darn, water drop and use a better lube. If you drop them at .431" hand lube and push through a .431" die to remove excess lube. No need to size the lead. I hand lube a lot of boolits with Felix and lap a Lee die to fit.
True you should pull a boolit and measure it but did you know crimp can scrape a soft boolit and not open fully if the boolit is soft. The boolit opens the crimp, NOT PRESSURE. Your case will not "JUMP OPEN" from pressure. If fired brass shows any crimp left, the boolit is too soft.
Boolit "BUMP UP" is a myth and so is "BUMP UP" when down the bore farther. Pressure does not increase down the bore, it sustains push if slow burning.
The stuff of brass opening before a boolit leaves never goes away.
Most likely your boolit is too soft and skidding the rifling. No lube will cure it. Gas squirts past over large land grooves and erodes lead. If you think lube is a gas seal, it is another hoax. It can't hold back 14,000 to 60,000 PSI.

Wally
08-29-2015, 04:18 PM
I recovered some fired bullets at 1,050 FPS....no evidence of skidding and I got the same leading issues w/a Ruger SBHK and a Model 29.



Wrong thing to do with a revolver, Darn, water drop and use a better lube. If you drop them at .431" hand lube and push through a .431" die to remove excess lube. No need to size the lead. I hand lube a lot of boolits with Felix and lap a Lee die to fit.
True you should pull a boolit and measure it but did you know crimp can scrape a soft boolit and not open fully if the boolit is soft. The boolit opens the crimp, NOT PRESSURE. Your case will not "JUMP OPEN" from pressure. If fired brass shows any crimp left, the boolit is too soft.
Boolit "BUMP UP" is a myth and so is "BUMP UP" when down the bore farther. Pressure does not increase down the bore, it sustains push if slow burning.
The stuff of brass opening before a boolit leaves never goes away.
Most likely your boolit is too soft and skidding the rifling. No lube will cure it. Gas squirts past over large land grooves and erodes lead. If you think lube is a gas seal, it is another hoax. It can't hold back 14,000 to 60,000 PSI.

bstone5
08-29-2015, 04:50 PM
Put a cola can gas check on the bullet.
The cola can gas check will give a seal and there should not be any lead.

Wally
08-29-2015, 05:35 PM
I will try it as a good buddy gave me some to try out.


Put a cola can gas check on the bullet.
The cola can gas check will give a seal and there should not be any lead.

gloob
08-31-2015, 05:30 AM
FWIW...I have Lyman three expander stems in the .44 caliber---both measure .423". I surmise that the case is swaging down the .430"+ TL bullets resizing them and that's the cause of the leading issue. I need to find an expander stem that is at .427"+ and I bet that eth leading issue will be resolved...and Idea where I might find one?

This would be what you're looking for, IMO. 430 diameter:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=1610&osCsid=8viumeupv6v2hkgv83b4t514b6

They also stock 427 and 429. 427 will do you no good. 429 will be an improvement. But 430 is most likely going to be the best if your cases are tight and your bullets are 430+. If it's too loose for your jacketed bullets, you may have to swap out your expander when you switch between cast and jacketed, but that's a small price to pay.

By all means, you should also water drop your bullets and use w/e lube is purported to be the amazingest. Some folks can load cast with with soft alloy and use anything under the sun as lube, but maybe they're just lucky (and have a loose sizing die)?

gloob
08-31-2015, 05:54 AM
"427+"
If your cases are tight, 427 is a waste of time. It's commonly said that the brass should be 2 mils smaller than the bullet. But that's not exactly accurate. The elasticity of a case is about 2 mils, on average. And you want the bullet to seat in the case within the elastic stretch limit. So you want the case to be smaller than the bullet by the elastic stretch limit, which is probably close to 2 mils. Point being that the ideal is not a fixed number. You are not aiming for 2 mils under. You are aiming to get max tension while sticking within the elasticity of the case mouth, which is more than likely not exactly 2 mils.

Furthermore: jacketed bullets are, say, 429. A 427 expander does not make your brass 2 mils smaller than 429. The reason why 427 usually works is because the sizing die usually sizes the case to about 2 mils under to begin with. Then the 427 expander die just flares the mouth and releases some of the internal stress left by the sizing die. If your sizing die is tight, the 427 expander can only open the case back out to around 425 (because of the elasticity of the case), which is around 4 mils under a jacketed bullet and exactly 2 mils smaller than what is strictly necessary for a 429 bullet. And exactly 3 mils smaller than what is necessary for a 430 bullet. A 429 expander will still leave the case 1 mil smaller than what is necessary for max neck tension on a 430 bullet.

If your size die closes up your cases to less than 426ish internal diameter, the 430 expander plug will leave you 100% neck tension with 430+ bullets.

kungfustyle
08-31-2015, 06:03 AM
You may want to check the cylinders of your revolvers. My Smith's cylinders varied by .003 enough to under size my boolits and cause leading by the forcing cone. There are chamber reamers that you can rent or buy for reasonable. Just a spot that you may want to look at. By the way you may want to try Powder coating the boolits

Wally
08-31-2015, 07:03 AM
Thankfully mine are all w/i .001" of one another and at .430~.431" on the Ruger SBHK & the Model 29.


You may want to check the cylinders of your revolvers. My Smith's cylinders varied by .003 enough to under size my boolits and cause leading by the forcing cone. There are chamber reamers that you can rent or buy for reasonable. Just a spot that you may want to look at. By the way you may want to try Powder coating the boolits

Wally
08-31-2015, 07:08 AM
I tried an experiment. Using RP cases and bullets sized to .431" I loaded the TLs and a 250 Keith--then I measured the end of the loaded rounds diameter on the outside of the cases--theye were identical and at .452"...so the cartridge case is NOT swaging the bullet down. I shoot the Kieth bullet (same load) 7.0 of Promo: NO LEADING...with the TL..I get LEADING..so it must be the lube. I tried staring LLA and LLA w/ the wax..same difference.

Maximumbob54
08-31-2015, 08:07 AM
I'm no help as I too tried the .44 magnum 240 SWC-TL for a while and just never got it to work in a magnum load. I had to down load them to be powder puff .44 special loads before they stopped leading. I was told the lack of a large enough driving band was the cause. And yet the 358 158 SWC TL works for me in magnums. I tried the .44's in both a M29-5 and a M629-6. They both shoot any other bullet just fine. I've used a lot of 50/50 alox/beeswax, LLA, and 45/45/10 and done right they all work just fine. I've powder coated just about ever other bullet I've cast but that one. I should try that some time and see if that works.


Deleted, cause I would be in timeout if you could read what I wrote.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that does that...

44man
08-31-2015, 08:10 AM
I can't measure my expander, it is the fixed Hornady. It is made for jacketed and is how I roll. You can see the boolit base and ripples from GG's through the brass.
I use the boolit as an expander. I can seat .432" boolits without sizing them. The boolit must be tough and no way I will give up tension. If it means WD or a stronger alloy, so be it. Expansion can be had with a soft nose.

gloob
08-31-2015, 03:20 PM
I tried an experiment. Using RP cases and bullets sized to .431" I loaded the TLs and a 250 Keith--then I measured the end of the loaded rounds diameter on the outside of the cases--theye were identical and at .452"...so the cartridge case is NOT swaging the bullet down.
This can't be accurate. You have to pull the bullet. Because you need to measure its diameter right at the base, and all the way around the circumference. What happens when a bullet case swages is a little "corner" of the base collapses, first. The case isn't a rigid, solid steel sizing die that makes the bullet uniformly smaller, everywhere.

gloob
08-31-2015, 03:33 PM
Now, if the gun, bullets, and cases check out fine, then I am going to guess that hardening the alloy might help. As the bullet enters the forcing cone, it might not be centered, perfectly. One side of the bullet might get "cut" more than the other. The more fragile TL grooves could be getting damaged more than a regular cast bullet.

If lube is the problem, it usually results in leading at the muzzle end of the barrel.

Wally
09-01-2015, 01:55 PM
Ok, how do I pull the seated bullet..never been able to do so without resizing the case....using a pliers, the lead on the nose will strip away before I can pull it out of the case. Also tried a hole in the bullet tip and a screw--same deal---cannot get the bullet out. I do not have a bullet puller or a impact puller.


This can't be accurate. You have to pull the bullet. Because you need to measure its diameter right at the base, and all the way around the circumference. What happens when a bullet case swages is a little "corner" of the base collapses, first. The case isn't a rigid, solid steel sizing die that makes the bullet uniformly smaller, everywhere.

popper
09-01-2015, 05:36 PM
Wire stripper/crimper tool and a short piece of PVC pipe, set up in your press. Really cut into the lead nose and it will come out. Your hand may get sore hitting the press handle. I recently shot full snot 308W with a >35BHN bore sized PCd 170 gr (emulating FMJ). No leading. Isn't the hardness itself that causes the problem.

gloob
09-01-2015, 06:26 PM
Ok, how do I pull the seated bullet..never been able to do so without resizing the case....using a pliers, the lead on the nose will strip away before I can pull it out of the case. Also tried a hole in the bullet tip and a screw--same deal---cannot get the bullet out. I do not have a bullet puller or a impact puller.
Get a kinetic puller. Or make one with a length of pipe and a shellholder.

If you can't pull a pistol bullet with a kinetic puller (and if you are not using brand new or wet-tumbled cases) your sizing die is too tight for that cast bullet. You can be sure of that. If you put a screw in the bullet and can't lever it out by clamping the screw with vice grips placed on top of your press, that doesn't bode well, either.

I have had issues in multiple calibers with tight sizing dies. I don't care what else you think you can do to your cast bullets/lubes to fix it. The only proper way is to address the cases/dies. The good news: if this is your problem, the fix is pretty easy and is a one-time deal. Get the right die, shoot away.

Lefty Red
09-03-2015, 12:19 AM
Does anyone loading TL bullets have the problem of the lube accumulating in the die, changing the bullet seat depth?

Yes, especially with dipped bullets. And I seat and crimp together, so it was REALLY messing me up.
I went to a light first coat of WL 45/45/10 or BLL. Light means a haze not globs!
Size and dip. Then sometimes I would size again (to clean up the bullet) but I would run it base first. All the extra lube would fill the groove. So no dried lube on the nose messing with the depth or crimp.

I also have just casted and dip then size and I always run them through base first.
I get no leading running 44 magnums at 1300 fsp and recovered bullets show lube on them!

Jerry

Motor
09-03-2015, 02:24 AM
I shoot high velocity loads for hunting only. But try 45-45-10, it is sure better.
A funny story for you. Had a guy driving me nuts to load .38's for him. I did the work with good lube and he was happy but the last time I TL'd his boolits. He never came back! I was not making money from the work and was glad to get out from under it.
You need to temper Alox with waxes, it burns in the bore. 50-50 will work. Alox is an undercoating and will not keep your car from rusting. All of mine with Zebart rusted away but Rusty Jones lasted forever. I don't know who decided it was a boolit lube!
I gave away many bottles but keep one to ward off pests.
Replace Alox with a high flash point oil like Safflower or peanut oil mixed with beeswax. Add some lanolin and soap.

Funny how quickly things change.

I recently tried powder coating. I don't think I'll be needing any lube for a very long time.:)

Oh and most, not all, of my moulds are tumble lube moulds. I am finding that the tumble lube boolits powder coat very nicely especially in the driving band area. After shooting several loads in several calibers I think my lubing days are over with.

Motor

Motor
09-03-2015, 02:56 AM
Does anyone loading TL bullets have the problem of the lube accumulating in the die, changing the bullet seat depth?

I've never had it occur while using the die if the seat plug was cleaned prior to starting the session. Cleaning out your seating plugs before starting is a must unless of course you do every time you finish.

Hardened accumulated lube in seating die plugs is another thing I'll no longer have to deal with since switching to powder coating.

Motor