Question on a BHN Cast Bullet 45-70

[lonewolf5347]

Will a BHN of 8 will be O.K. for blackpowder loads and around 1600 FPS for smokeless loads
Cal: 45-70 405 FP ?
What do you guys think on this subject?

[Frank46]

lonewolf, if it were me I'd be wanting something a little harder for the smokeless loads.
Wheelweights with 2% tin is what I normally use and works fine especially around 1600fps. The bp loads would be on the order of either 1-20 or 1-25. I have a buddy who shoots sharps rifles in bp competition and he'll brew up his alloys along those lines.
He had the lyman 457125 blown up to 50 caliber for his 50-110 and has taken a few buffalo with it. Frank

[McLintock]

I'll second what Frank46 says, the smokeless bullets need to be harder, particularly if you're going up to 1600 fps or so. The soft ones will tend to strip out at those velocities; and I'd be starting to look at a gas check bullet at those speeds. Just my $.02.
McLintock

[waksupi]

OK guys, you're going to have to explain this one to me. In the 6.5 Swede, at 1700 fps range, my rifles like soft aircooled WW bullets. Why would a .45 with slower twist need a harder bullet? Kinda sounds like a bullet that is too small.

[felix]

Ric, you are rotating more mass, and with a greater diameter. It is both mass and diameter which makes up the total inertia of the boolit. It is the STATIC inertia that must be overcomed WITHIN the barrel. The objective is to create a DYNAMIC inertia for the boolit because it is that which maintains the EXTERNAL trajectory. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

OK guys, you're going to have to explain this one to me. In the 6.5 Swede, at 1700 fps range, my rifles like soft aircooled WW bullets. Why would a .45 with slower twist need a harder bullet? Kinda sounds like a bullet that is too small.


Ric,

Most rifling is .004 tall. The larger the bullet diameter, the less percentage of the bullet diameter drives. Or more stress is placed on the metal that does. Compound that with the fact that most people shoot lighter (shorter) bullets in a 45, and you lose drive area that way too. And in the end, you still have to turn over a much heavier bullet. So it depends on many factors, but some 45s can shoot 8 BHN at that velocity just fine while another rifle may need 16 or 18 to do the same thing.

Or if it is easier, look at cast bullet accuracy figures. For 30 calibers it is 1600-1800 fps. For 45s it is considered 1100 - 1300 fps to be the best velocity range for cast.

Then again, sometimes people just convince themselves that they need a harder bullet. You read this here when people write that they need a harder bullet to get over 2000 fps and I have had ACWW to 3000 accurately. This was what I tried to get across in some of those ideal lead barrel discussions that never went anywhere.

[44man]

Waksupi, air hardened WW's are a lot harder then 8 Brinnel which is almost pure lead.

[David R]

So, I think I just made the connection. My 22-250 shoots best at 2684 av. My two thirty cal rifles seem to have a 2,000 fps speed limit. Now I read 45 cal is 1100 to 1300..............Maybe I should get out that .243 from the closet. Hmmm got the dies, no mold or sizing die.............Yet.

David

[Buckshot]

.............David, speak to Deputy Al and Carpetman about the 243 and cast.

...........Buckshot

[waksupi]

Very good explainations. That was a comparison I had never considered the "Why" on. I'll add that to my notes. The sure are some smart people hanging around here. I'm just not one of them!

[The Nyack Kid]

dont feel too bad waksupi . im not one of the smart people either . however we are part of a ultra , super , special ,elite group being boolit casters so look down your nose at all the "lesser" people out there.

[ejjuls]

Lone Wolf,

You asked the very question to which I am still experimenting to find the answer (for my rifle anyway).

I am running a Lee 405grn HBFP in my Handi-Rifle in 45.70 govt. My goal is BP loads only - no particular reason other than I want to. I have experimented with bullet diameter, primers, alloy, lube, exotic wads, "normal" wads and such.. It has been a fun ride so far and I am still enjoying tinkering with this caliber. Needless to say the rifle will be improved upon (longer bbl) in the near future for distance shooting.

With all that said, what alloy works in my rifle may be totally different in yours - but there are some general guidelines that usually work...as stated in precious replys by others. BP loading usually can do fine with a softer alloy. Smokeless powders usually like a harder alloy. In my particular rifle this does not hold true.

I have found that my rifle likes smokless loads really well with a harder alloy (i.e. Lyman #2, water quenched WW, and lynotype type lead hardness). Since my goal is BP, I have devoted more testing to that load developement. I have tried 30:1, straight WW, 20:1, pure lead, Lyman #2, water quenched WW's. No matter what size I end up with on bullet diameter the results remain the same - hard alloy only. I have settled on the water quenched WW as the alloy I will use. This alloy is more time consuming to deal with, but I don't like diminishing my supply of Tin needlessly.

My velocities for the loadings vary - depending on what I am trying to accomplish. Mainly I am trying to get more accuracy than velocity - the load I have found that works best is 52.5 grns Goex FFg with a grease cooklie, the bullet is lubed with a concoction lube I have had given to me and bullet diameter 0.463" as cast, pan lubed. I could go on and on with all the tests I did but why waste everyones time?

I just mainly wanted to point out that sometimes things don't go as planned - and the usual guidelines don't always hold true. The best answer to your question is to try it and find out. I would suggest a straight WW, #2 alloy, and a softer 30:1 alloy for a BP loading - see what your rifle likes. For smokeless I would do nothing less than a harder alloy - for economy sake the water quenched WW alloy has my vote. Oh - velocity...almost forgot to mention - BP loadings with a "normal" loading expect to see 1200 fps +/- depending on barrel length and the amount of fuel you pack into the case. For smokeless I wouldn't try to do any "Ruger #1 loadings" or He-man shoulder and back doctor re-adjusting loads as like to say. The avg decent velocity of 1400 - 1600 fps is just fine with this heavy of a slug. Honestly I don't even do that high - I like the 1200-1300 speed limit myself.

Anywho - enough rambling for this guy
Hope this contributes something useful to someone!
Eric

[Wayne Smith]

Somebody (Felix?) correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it really matters much which type of powder is used, BP or smokeless, it's the velocity that matters. Bullet composition (hardness) and velocity, with or without gc, is the way I think the data ought to be presented.

Am I right or wrong, guys?

[felix]

Wayne, it is not the velocity per se (unless you are talking 2400 fps plus). It is the accelleration of the boolit that rules. And, to extend matters a little, accelleration is directly correlated with ignition characteristics, at least for the first part of the boolit's travel within the bore. As gun powders are typically made, you can assume that black powder is fast and gentle, and smokeless is slow and violent. Both have to be matched up with the inertia of the boolit, especially the static inertia, for best results. So, your theory of saying it does not make any difference of which powder is used, the theory is truthful when a matching condition can be found. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Felix said a very good synopsis of what really happens.

[StarMetal]

Felix got it right. Here's a car theory. Say one car is dead and you're going to push it with another car and push it up to the speed of 60 mph. So you pull in behind the dead car and ever so slowly pull closer to it till contact is made and start gently accelerating till you reach 60 mph. No damage on either car. Then you do the other method, approach the dead car at speed, say 20 mph, bang boom some damage and then things get moving. Kind of like gunpowder and what Felix said.

Joe

[The Nyack Kid]

felix and starmetal

I dont get it :-?
black powder is clasified as an explosive .
every one says that bp "bumps up" soft lead to bore size nitro powders leak gas around the boolit cuzz it dont , you guys say other wize ?????

[felix]

Shipping and/or storing powder? Black powder is extremely easy to ignite compared to smokeless, and that is the reason for the difference in classification. What is being said is that when you match up the powder's ignition with the boolit, then any gas escape is based upon some remaining bad boolit/bore/throat/leade fit. You should ALWAYS try and eliminate any discrepancies up front before loading for score. This can be done by changing powder and/or primer speeds as you already know. If this does not work, then changing boolit diameter and/or hardness is a requirement. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Nyack

If you ever poured some smokeless powder on the ground and lit it, it burns really slow, pretty unimpressive. But if you contain it, and I mean more containment then the can it comes in, then boy, it's a whole different animal. Black powder on the other hand burns fast to say the least, like in a flash, poof, gone....an explosion. It's pretty unstable stuff compared to smokeless with is concidered a flammable. Smokeless is alot safer when it's not contained like in a cartridge in a barrel. Even heating a loaded cartridge it's not "explosive". On the other hand black powder is sensitive to alot of things. Heat, compression, static electricity, and more. Look at the powder in firecrackers, it's a form of blackpowder and the paper isn't much of a containment and it sure "explodes" pretty good.

BP doesn't really explode inside a barrel, it burns and it does create pressure or it wouldn't push the bullet out. Pushing a bullet out is going to upset it some to get it moving. For example, if you butt your shoulder up against a car to push it you will notice as you start pushing your flesh compresses and in some cases the fender or what you are pressing against flexes too. So there's no doubt that when the BP lights off and creates pressure and the pressure hits the bullet it bumps it up because the bullet is resisting movement at first because it's a stationary object before the pressure hits it. Most BP projectiles are pretty soft alloy too and in alot of instances near pure lead. That's soft stuff. Smokeless bumps up a bullet also. I've recovered alot of gaschecked cast bullets where that nice flatbase gascheck when loaded was now cupped from there the powder gas pressure pressed on it. If a smokeless gas just slipped around a bullet we'd have alot of leading and lousy accuracy too, along with poor performance. The bullet would almost have to be smaller then bore and groove diameter for that to happen that bad. I think if the bullet is close to those barrel dimensions that it gets bumped up enough to seal off gas leaks. Look at some of the original BP conicals, they ended up with a hollowbased conical in muzzleloader to insure the bullet swelled out to fill the bore. I know the bullet was made smaller then the bore to ease loading it and then they hoped it would bump up and they made sure by making it a hollowbase at first. Before that hollowbase was filled with a wood plug to expand the skirt out, then they found out they didn't need it.

Joe

[ejjuls]

Starmetal and folks,

I agree totally on the bumping up with BP as you described it. the 405 grn HB mold I am using leaves a very telling tale when recovered after a trip down the bbl fueled by BP. A bullet at 0.459" diam with the softer alloys the rifling marks show to be "completely" wiped off the bullet with a stiff charge of FFg. The skirt of the bullet is very thick - compared to a .54cal minnie ball - and the skirt is visually flared at the very base just slightly. When mic'd the bullet is way over the original 0.459" - you can see the grease grooves are "shrunk'd up a bit" and the bullet looks slightly squashed - all of this is most likely due to both impact deformation and initial deformation on launch - but.....as the alloy gets harder the rifling begins to look more "intact and clear" and the deformation of the bullet begins to change. I know everyone is saying "Duhhhh!!!!" - but to me it is significant in that the skirt remains the same no matter what the alloy hardness is. This is the telling tale of the bumping up on launch - I think anyway.

None of my experiments are scientific to say the least! But I do enjoy playing around with alloy's and such to see what works best. On the note of the gas checked bullets as was mentioned - I have several recovered 45cal 310grn FP bullets that were fired from my .45 Colt revolver into sand media. I was playing around with the alloy to see what worked best for a good hunting slug. The softer alloys showed a dimple in the center of the bullet - not really a dimple but a shallow conical depression through the gaschecks - pushed in the middle so to speak. Harder alloys didn't show any noticable change other than powder residue etc. No doubt there is some deformation on all of the bullets but I never took the time to try and quantify it.

Anyway, After reading everyones explanations it is clear to me I am no good at explaining things! I can see it clearly in my mind's eye but I have trouble putting it in words (letters). I hope my little 2cents helps someone!
Happy - Safe shooting all!
Elk season is right around the corner.....
Eric

[StarMetal]

Eric,

I think you done good on your explaining, at least I understood what you were saying.

When I tested some 777 powder in my Ruger Old Army with those hollowbase conical I use, it blew the skirts off of some of the bullets. I mention this because I think in some instances the swelling of skirt area of a HB bullet isn't really bumping up, but the gas working directly on pushing the skirt out, which it even continues doing when the bullet exits the muzzle, if it didn't how would the skirt flare out larger then the bore? So with those type of bullets and high pressure, I think we have both the swelling and bumping up.

Joe

[lonewolf5347]

I like to say thanks to all the guys that help me in loading BP in the 45-70 to get started.I am not new to shooting BP buy all are smokepoles flinters
I shot the loads I made up yesterday out of the H@R 45-70 BC rifle it was a blast to shoot the BP bullets out of the gun.
The loads work fine but do need improvement ,hay the bullets did come out the front of the barrel when fired.
I used LTD CUSTOM CAST BULLET 20:1 MIX 65 GRAINS OF GOEX 2F @ 405 FP
BULLET.
I did have to get the feel of the H@R but the groupe was about 5 inches at the 75 yard target and for the first time out I was pleased
I also have to say a special thanks to SHARPSHOOTER the guy had to put up with me and my e mails

[ben1025]

ejjuls: It's my understanding that micro grove barrels like harder lead compared to ballard type. This is probably the reason your H&R likes harder lead. Mine shoots good with a brinnel of 14 with smokeless powder. I've shot brinnel 8 under 1500 fps in most ballard type barrels with good results. ben1025