40mm Chalk rounds now ruled as explosive shells?

[Artful]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/m203-Firing-660x495.jpg

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/08/04/atf-rules-40mm-practice-chalk-rounds-are-explosives-destructive-devices/


ATF Rules 40mm Practice “Chalk” Rounds Are Explosives, Destructive Devices -



In a head-scratching ruling, the ATF has reclassified 40mm practice (“chalk”) rounds and 40mm flares as “destructive devices”, putting them in the same category as actual explosive 40mm grenade ammunition. While several sources have covered this topic, the best treatment I have seen comes from WeaponsMan, (http://weaponsman.com/?p=24327) and is reproduced in part below:

Ammunition they have confirmed they are confiscating is M992 infrared illumination and the M781 training practice round (seen below on the range, as featured in a WeaponsMan.com story last year (http://weaponsman.com/?p=12998)).


http://www.chemringordnance.com/~/media/Images/C/Chemring-Ordnance/content-images/products/40mm/m781.png?h=190&la=en&w=90
Name: M781, 40mm LV Practice Round
Hazard Class: 1.4C
DODIC: B519
Part Number: 932240
Description
The M781 is a Low velocity training round that is a ballistic match to M433 and incorporates Chemring Ordnance’s patented propulsion system.

Application
This 40mm LV training version of the M433 HE/HEDP round displays an orange marking to simulate target impact.


The practice round has a plastic shell and contains a day-glow orange (and naturally degradable, environmentally friendly, even) chalk filling. It’s supposed to be a ballistic match for the HEDP round.

Here are some comments from an Arfcom thread on the subject (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/448703_Well_ATF_Explosive_Ordinance_Disposal_is_co ming_to_my_house_in_the_morning_.html&page=1). The original post:

“Apparently the 40mm M992 IR flares are considered to be a explosive round. This is news to me. They got my name from the dealer I purchased them from, apparently they didn’t know either. Any one have any info on this. I’ve been googling it for a couple of hours now and can’t find anything.

“He left his card on my front door. He said he was going to bring a copy of the explosives tech branch ruling.”

The follow-up after the ATF visit, emphasis ours:

“Ok so a update. The agent that showed up was an actual bomb tech. I surrendered the rounds under protest per the advice of a attorney.

The bomb tech was a really cool guy. He agreed that it was pretty stupid and he hated to do it but he was being forced to help out with the case. He did also tell me that they had sent him out to take 40mm chalk rounds under the same case. I walked out to the truck with him and watched him place the rounds in the explosive magazine in his truck. When I told him I was surrendering the rounds under protest he looked at me and said “good I hope you can fight it and get them back because this whole situation is stupid.” I’m not sure if I will go to court over it or not.

I’m not out enough money for it to be a big deal but it’s an issue that has me concerned. I know there are not enough people out there with registered DD M203’s for this case to ever become a big deal but it is really ****ty that as far as I can tell all 40mm rounds are considered to be Low Explosives and can not be owned unless you have a explosive licence.”

Note that the “explosives tech branch ruling” has not been furnished, although this letter is circulating. It was addressed to the original Arfcom poster’s dealer, the one that had sold him the rounds.
40mm M992 Confiscation Letter (http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/40mm-M992-Confiscation-Letter.pdf).pdf

And, a comment in the same Arfcom thread by a different user:
“I just contacted my Senator and OMB concerning this. My Senator is very concerned and OMB’s response was interesting in that they say ATF is citing one section of law while ignoring others that define what makes a DD.

OMB believes that ATF may be outside of the law on this and will be contacting my Senator tomorrow. After a nice discussion with an investigator there, it appears ATF is fudging the language of the applied section of code to make a determination to allow them to confiscate.

The investigator with OMB believes that this may warrant action against FTB in BATFE. We shall see what happens if anything. But there is absolutely no doubt that BATFE is deliberately incorrectly interpreting the section of code and is pursuing illegal action.”

Our friends inside ATF say that the initiative was conceived and planned in the Chief Counsel’s Office. That way, managers have explained to the rank and file, they won’t have to answer questions to the public, press or Congress “because everything is under lawyer-client privilege.”

They seemed to split on whether Acting Director Thomas Brandon initiated this policy or merely signed off on it. “It wasn’t his idea,” one told us flatly. “He’s not that bright. It came from the lawyers, or from DOJ through the lawyers.”



For what reason the ATF would want to regulate harmless marker rounds is puzzling. It appears however that the ATF has taken action to confiscate these rounds from owners, despite the fact that they contain no actual explosive material.

Link to letter
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/40mm-M992-Confiscation-Letter.pdf

Where does this leave carpenters?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/715l9N7Ck5L._SY355_.jpg
http://www.toolbarn.com/hand/measuring-marking/marking-tools/chalk-lines/chalk.html

Are all those chalk lines now pipe bombs?

[Bulldogger]

I thought that anything over 37mm was for Military and Law Enforcement only? That might be the reason behind the case, more than DD.
Bulldogger

[Artful]

I thought that anything over 37mm was for Military and Law Enforcement only? That might be the reason behind the case, more than DD.
Bulldogger

No, anything over .50 Cal is Destructive Device - and NFA and $200 tax stamp for the weapon but this is declaring the Chalk round like it's an explosive warhead. Stupid!
It's like when BATF declared a shoelace to be a machinegun - again STUPID!

[higgins]

Is there a small explosive charge in the projectile that disperses the chalk on impact?

[NavyVet1959]

Should have used the old excuse -- got lost in a boating accident.

[winchester85]

it is just one step further to make sure that the populace does not have the tools to fight back if and when the government declares martial law.

[Vopie]

No, no charge in the projectile.

[dkf]

BATFE pulling regs out their **** again I see....

[mtnman31]

I've got bunch of chalk rounds that the BATFE can have. Come pick them up, anytime, @ 1060 W Addison...

[MaryB]

This is coming down from Obama, he can't get AR ammo banned so he is going after anything and everything he can. Next year and a half is going to be a giant battle of over regulation, illegal regulation, illegal executive orders...

[dakotashooter2]

Probably justified it by showing our leaders a video of the dust cloud cause by impact and called it an explosion..........

[fixit]

this is just another test case to see if they can get the camel's nose under the edge of the tent! they are working on death by a million paper cuts!!!

[fixit]

Probably justified it by showing our leaders a video of the dust cloud cause by impact and called it an explosion..........

I would never consider giving them an excuse of innocence! they, (the atf) and the ones who favor the regs, don't care if it's explosive or not...it's a projectile and ammo , and they don't want anybody but the military and police to have it, because 'civilians have no need for such things'. these are the same panty wetters who put labels on knives because you might get cut!

[NavyVet1959]

I would never consider giving them an excuse of innocence! they, (the atf) and the ones who favor the regs, don't care if it's explosive or not...it's a projectile and ammo , and they don't want anybody but the military and police to have it, because 'civilians have no need for such things'. these are the same panty wetters who put labels on knives because you might get cut!

Well, maybe if the military started actually honoring their oath to defend the Constitution, the leftists would not want them to have arms either. :)

[Bulldogger]

No, anything over .50 Cal is Destructive Device - and NFA and $200 tax stamp for the weapon but this is declaring the Chalk round like it's an explosive warhead. Stupid!
It's like when BATF declared a shoelace to be a machinegun - again STUPID!

I was referring to flares and other similar signaling equipment. It's my understanding civilian signal flares are 37mm, in part to avoid the possibility of using 40mm destructive ammo.

I guess I should measure my German surplus flare pistol now...

Bulldogger

[Artful]

Do a little research on DD's
common flare projectiles come in
19mm
12 gauge
26.5 mm
37 mm
40 mm

https://www.atf.gov/file/55446/download


(f) Destructive device.--The term “destructive device” means
* * *
(2) any type ofweapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to,expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels ofwhich have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgunshell which the Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as particularlysuitable for sporting purposes; . . .

Section 5845(f)(3) excludes from the term “destructive device” any device which is neither designed or redesigned for use as a weapon and any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device

You don't need to measure - just make sure you can't get anti-personnel ammo for it.

http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/156/102/934_001.jpg
plus these
http://www.hitechammotogo.com/assets/images/Adapters4.jpg able to use
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/572/572451.jpg
make your 37mm a DD

[NavyVet1959]

Personal Observation -- A 12-gauge plastic flaregun fitted with a standard 12-gauge shotshell could be considered a "destructive device" -- destructive to the flare gun itself, but pretty safe for anything in front of the flare gun. Also, your hand is pretty sore afterwards. :(

[Artful]

Smarter ways to make a Olin Flare pistol into an anti-personnel device

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riaUc2THl0k

[destrux]

This has been debunked... the ATF agent who said he was sent to retrieve chalk rounds failed to mention (initially) they were illegally obtained from a military contract supplier (not by the person they were being taken from, but by a person who sold them to several sellers, who them sold them to the end buyers). They weren't confiscated because that type of round is illegal... they were confiscated because they were stolen (or otherwise not legally obtained). Same deal with the IR flare rounds being confiscated.

The manufacturers are not allowed to sell overruns from a contract run on the civilian market under the terms of their contracts (usually, but there are exceptions). If a manufacturer does, or if an employee sneaks a pallet of rejects/overruns out of the place... this is the result. The items end up being bought by legitimate shops who believe they've bought legal items and then sell them to end users who also are unaware.... then the ATF catches wind of missing items during an inventory check and tracks them down using sales records and confiscates them (without reimbursement unfortunately). The only guy going to jail though is the guy who removed the items from the factory without proper permission.

Manufacturers are still allowed to make these items (some of them) specifically for sale on the civilian market though, and buying those or having them in your possession is not illegal, neither is making them yourself, or reloading empty surplus casings.

Now, all of that doesn't mean that Obama wouldn't love to rain on our parade if given the chance.

[destrux]

Do a little research on DD's
common flare projectiles come in
19mm
12 gauge
26.5 mm
37 mm
40 mm

https://www.atf.gov/file/55446/download


You don't need to measure - just make sure you can't get anti-personnel ammo for it.

http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/156/102/934_001.jpg
plus these
http://www.hitechammotogo.com/assets/images/Adapters4.jpg able to use
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/572/572451.jpg
make your 37mm a DD

With DD's it's possession that matters, not availability. You can get AP rounds for the 37mm launchers no problem. Foam baton, rubber buck... any non signaling round is considered AP by the ATF. That doesn't make a 37mm launcher a DD though unless you posses it along with AP ammunition. Same goes for those chamber adapters. The 12g come in two varieties, one is bored only deep enough to seat a flare round, and will not seat a 2 3/4" cartridge. Possessing one of those doesn't make a DD either, unless you also possess 12g ammunition that you modified (shortened) to fit in it (or possess some of those Aguila mini shells with it).

I stick to pyro signaling rounds in my 37mm. I also have an adapter to use 26.5mm European flares in it, which are nice and cheap right now. The 12g stuff isn't impressive enough to bother with anyway really. The 37mm multi star rounds are really cool though on the 4th of July.

[NavyVet1959]

The 12g come in two varieties, one is bored only deep enough to seat a flare round, and will not seat a 2 3/4" cartridge. Possessing one of those doesn't make a DD either, unless you also possess 12g ammunition that you modified (shortened) to fit in it (or possess some of those Aguila mini shells with it).

Just takes a few minutes with a dowel and a piece of sandpaper to modify the Olin plastic 12-gauge flare gun so that it can fire a regular 12-gauge shell...

ONCE...

Of course, none of the pellets end up coming out of the *front* of the barrel. :(

"Here... hold my beer..."

[Artful]

destrux (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?25952-destrux) do you have a link to the follow up?

[Bulldogger]

This has been debunked... the ATF agent who said he was sent to retrieve chalk rounds failed to mention (initially) they were illegally obtained from a military contract supplier (not by the person they were being taken from, but by a person who sold them to several sellers, who them sold them to the end buyers). They weren't confiscated because that type of round is illegal... they were confiscated because they were stolen (or otherwise not legally obtained). Same deal with the IR flare rounds being confiscated.

The manufacturers are not allowed to sell overruns from a contract run on the civilian market under the terms of their contracts (usually, but there are exceptions). If a manufacturer does, or if an employee sneaks a pallet of rejects/overruns out of the place... this is the result. The items end up being bought by legitimate shops who believe they've bought legal items and then sell them to end users who also are unaware.... then the ATF catches wind of missing items during an inventory check and tracks them down using sales records and confiscates them (without reimbursement unfortunately). The only guy going to jail though is the guy who removed the items from the factory without proper permission.

Manufacturers are still allowed to make these items (some of them) specifically for sale on the civilian market though, and buying those or having them in your possession is not illegal, neither is making them yourself, or reloading empty surplus casings.

Now, all of that doesn't mean that Obama wouldn't love to rain on our parade if given the chance.


This makes sense; I've read about this before with stuff like MRE's and such, the ones we buy are from the same Supplier, but not marked as U.S. Government Issue. It's hard to come up with GI, unless you know someone in the military with hands-on.

Bulldogger

[destrux]

I don't have the link offhand but you can find a firsthand discussion of what happened in grogs forum, and also in the AR15.com destructive device section (in the armory).

[Artful]

To clear up some misconceptions about the ATF at Grog's house, I'll post the encounter and reason for same here.

1. The ATF were not here because of any storage violation, or any violation that I committed. Matter of fact, they were quite specific that I did nothing wrong.

2. The reason they are trying to get all that ord back is because it was transferred illegally from a third party, not the manufacturer, but someone who was properly licensed, but decided to make some quick cash by selling things he should have only sold to other explosives licensees, without the proper paperwork.

IF the paper trail had been done right, there would have been no problem, but since this douche decided to go about things the wrong way, I, and a few others are out some cash. It is an annoyance, nothing more.

In order for those rounds to have been properly sold, the manufacturer has a paper trail on each case or lot number of items. Those are transferred via paper to the end user, who also needs to have the proper storage and license for same item.

ATF advised me that even if I had the proper license, and storage (which I do have BTW) they would still confiscate the items because they were transferred illegally, with no paperwork. THAT is the reason they are coming after these items, not storage or licensing issues. This came right from ATF DC EOD tech, who came here because he knows of me, and that I know the rounds in question. The other two guys with him didn't offer much...

The whole problem is because one douche decided to make some quick cash by selling things in a way he knew to be wrong, and we got to pay for it... well, he will be paying for it later, but for now it's us who doled out the cash.

I was told directly by the EOD guy that this was only concerning the things sold by Whisper Tech, and Ohio Ord, and anyone who got them from those sources. It had nothing to do with 781 practice, or anything else powered by a 38 blank. I came out with a green tipped sponge round, directly from military sources, and he didn't want it. He said that those are not a problem to have, as they do not contain more than .25oz of explosives or explosive mixtures, and were not, as far as he knew, transferred illegally. I have his contact info if anyone desired to write.

Oh, and I've been on vacation for a while, so that's why no e-mail response or post checking. I am, after all, retired. :) GROG


http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/11/03/copley-home-of-alleged-illegal-online-arms-dealer-raided-by-feds



Copley Home of Alleged Illegal Online Arms Dealer Raided By Feds
Posted By Doug Brown on Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 5:21 pm
atf.jpeg
The Copley home of a man the feds say is an illegal and unlicensed arms dealer was raided by ATF agents late last month. James W. Copley (yes, his last name and his town's name are the same), 54, became a target of an investigation after a customer of his was busted by Pittsburgh-based ATF agents in September and became a confidential informant, helping the feds gather evidence against the dealer, according to an affidavit filed by the ATF.

This is the second time Copley showed up on the ATF's radar, having been caught advertising an illegal rifle for sale on the site gunbroker.com in 2002 ("Copley entered a pre-trial diversion agreement with the United States Attorney's Office and agreed to forfeit six National Firearms Act weapons that had been seized from his residence," the affidavit says). During the current investigation, the informant said he purchased a "crate" of M228 grenade training fuzes (illegal to sell without a federal license, which Copley doesn't have) using the same site, corresponding with Copley through the same email address he used during his 2002 bust.

This fall, under the surveillance of the ATF, Copley emailed the informant about selling him more of the practice grenade fuzes, and he was watched by the ATF as he delivered them to the informant's home. Agents looked up the car's license plate and found it registered to Copley. In previous email correspondence, Copley told the future-informant his home address and that "I've been doing internet (arms sales) for 16 yrs."

On Oct. 16, after setting up another deal with the informant, Copley drove down south to pick up a freight of M228 practice grenade fuzes to bring up north. ATF agents in Columbia, South Carolina tracked Copley's RV to a campground in Myrtle Beach on Oct. 20 and, a few days later, an ATF agent watched as a federally licensed Alabama-based dealer loaded up the RV's underbelly with boxes assumed to be M228 fuzes.

The ATF had an Alabama State Trooper pull him over, and ATF agents got a search warrant on the RV (Copley refused to consent to a search), finding 1,344 of the grenade fuzes.

This became probable cause for the feds to get a search warrant at his home back in Ohio. That search happened on Oct. 24. Agents found the following in his basement:

http://www.clevescene.com/binary/fc17/1415052942-atf_search_warrant_result.jpg

Copley has not been indicted yet, but his stuff has been seized. Read the search warrant affidavit below (the last two pages are the search warrant results):

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1352970-james-copley.html#document/p1


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_2/448703_Well_ATF_Explosive_Ordinance_Disposal_is_co ming_to_my_house_in_the_morning_.html

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac74/txmod1911/40mmM992letter1-1.jpg (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/txmod1911/media/40mmM992letter1-1.jpg.html)

http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac74/txmod1911/40mmM992letter2.jpg (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/txmod1911/media/40mmM992letter2.jpg.html)

https://www.atf.gov/file/4826/download