1860 Not Igniting Primers

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Acquired an unfired 1860 with Colt's name on the box and barrel a couple months back and it was reliable as a K-38, now it's not igniting primers. I've put about 3 pounds of FFFg through it without it missing a beat, now suddenly this problem has cropped up. Today, like yesterday, all 6 caps fire at first, then about three reloads into the session -18 rounds, a chamber will not fire. Then another chamber will not fire. I'll replace the caps and still they don't fire. So far got two (2) nipples will not fire. This gun used to shoot like a house of fire. I suspect that I could go out now and get all 6 to fire, but then into the range session get clicks and no bangs.

I'm thinking that the Italian steel of the nipples being whacked by the color case hardened hammer has distorted the dimensions of the face of the nipples just enough to cause failure to fires when a little fouling is introduced. Would aftermarket nipples give me smoke and fire again?

Goex FFFg, Remington and CCI primers, #10. Speer and Hornady .44 (.454") balls and felt wads under the balls. I top my loads with Bore Butter.

[Battis]

Are the caps igniting but not the powder, or are the caps not igniting?
If the caps are igniting but not the powder, I've found that #10 caps might fit nicely when you first shoot the gun, but after the smoke residue builds up, the caps don't fit. I use #11 caps with a pinch to keep them on. Did you clean the nipple holes and flash holes?
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The caps are not igniting when struck by the falling hammer. And they did when I first got the gun.

[Battis]

Did you break the gun down to see if maybe there's a spent cap jamming the mainspring? Or maybe the mainspring is just too weak, or maybe broken.

[Beagle333]

Definitely check for cap jam. Battis might have hit upon it. Very often a cap or piece of a cap will fall down between the hammer and frame and get carried deeper into the case and cushion the fall of the hammer. If you have disassembled it and there are no caps or fragments in there, are the nipples flattened or mushroomed that you can see? You can chuck them in a drill and spin them against a piece of fine sandpaper and remove distortions and make them round again and if the cleanup process makes them just a little short, you can wrap a loop or two of fine copper wire around the base above the threads (unwind a section of lamp cord if you don't have any fine copper wire handy) before you insert them back into the cylinder and that will make them stand up a little taller. If you have to use the copper shim to get them to fire, you need to go ahead and order new nipples because that is a temporary fix and also will get annoying every time you have to remove the nipples for cleaning. But it will let you shoot until the new nipples arrive. All of this might not be necessary if you cannot see light through the flash holes when you look through the cylinder from the chamber end with nipples installed. In that case, just get a paper clip and clean them well.

[docone31]

Beagle nailed it.
Back when we watched western films, the recoil of the pistol would make the pistol jump up and backwards. In reality, that was a move to clear the cap fragment from the action. It was common to make the pistol rise after firing and before firing again. A piece of cap would be in the frame.
A fix is to put JB Weld in the notch of the hammer and file it smooth. Not perfect, but it is a start.
I would check the frame for a fragment.

[Texantothecore]

I installed Treso nipples on my 1851 Navy and it completely eliminated misfires. The Tresos have a flat surface on the nipple that has more contact with the primer and they work much better than the Italian nipples.

The difference is simply amazing.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Thanks, guys. Cap fragments would not be consistent with the symptom. Some nipples wouldn't would fire, some would. The offending nipples were removed and last night I took a hand file to the face of them. The steel the nipples are made out of is not soft. What was discovered was the face of the nipples are not flat, it's as if drilling the holes made the face of the nipples uneven. Cleaning was done with hot water and then a coat of oil was applied. I believe corrosion on the face of the uneven nipples is the source of the problem.

The mainspring was checked too, but again some nipples would fire and some would not. I like the idea of BJ Weld in the hammer notch.

A range session is planned for today after work. "What do we do now?" (Mattie.) "Pursue." (Roster).

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Texantothecore, where did you get your Treso nipples from?

[Texantothecore]

I get the them from "The Possibles Shop. They seem to have them in stock more often than other suppliers.

You are probably experiencing gas cutting from the percussion cap. The broader bearing surface of Tresos should reduce that quite a bit and they should last longer. My own experience is that they also throw many fewer cap fragments which is good because the hot gases that rip up the caps are the same ones which will gas cut the surface of your nipple.

They use #11 caps. My impression is that the #11s are better balanced than the 10s. Bottom Line: they work.

http://possibleshop.com/menu-shooting-supplies.html

[tdoor4570]

You might also try The House of Muskets 1-970-731-2295 for Treso nipples

[Omnivore]

I'll just add that Treso nipples with Remington #10 caps is THE perfect fit.

Since you have a Colt 2cd Gen or Signature series, you shouldn't have a problem with the action, but a Pietta I have originally had the hammer sliding in against one side of the hammer channel in the frame. Once that hammer channel got some fouling built up in it, it would impede the hammer, causing misfires. Juducial opening of the hammer channel on one side fixed that problem.

Anything causing additional friction on the hammer's movement would do similarly. A similar problem occurs when a cap fits just a little bit too tight. Fouling build up on the nipple makes it fit tighter still, and at some point the cap doesn't seat all the way on, and is being seated farther onto the nipple as the hammer hits it, softening the blow and causing misfires. You can adjust the fit as indicated above, but the Treso/Rem #10 combo is very good.

Colts do have a tendancy to place spent caps down in the hammer channel to jam the hammer. Although you say this is not your current problem, it does tend to happen on all Colts. Again; Treso nipples, with their smaller flash hole, allow less blow-back and will thus reduce that problem considerably. Installing a "cap rake" (google it) in the frame will eliminate the problem.

[Walkingwolf]

Check the lockwork for a fired cap stuck.

[Hellgate]

I've owned at least 38 different C&Bs over the years. When this sort of problem showed up suddenly I most often found a VERY WELL FLATTENED cap or fragment thereof somewhere in the hammer cutout in the frame. Sometimes it would be covered in fouling and hard to see unless I took a dental pick and scraped the channel to be sure. If there is no deformation of the nipple heads or hammer face then somehow fouling must be building up to prevent the hammer from falling all the way down to strike the cap. Be sure there is enough force to do that. A light mainspring will be stopped by less fouling than a heavier spring. Look for fouling scrape marks on the hammer where it is contacting the frame. You may have to relieve the hammer cutout in high areas.

[bedbugbilly]

Can't add much . . .Omnivore gives good advice - get rid of the original nipples and put a set of Treso nipples on it - it will make all the difference in the world.

It doesn't take much of a cap fragment to mess things up. When cocking the piece, ties you wrist and do the "Colt twist" so that the revolver is not straight up and down or nearly so . . that will help any fragments to fall to the side and not down in the hammer channel when the cylinder indexes.

[mooman76]

Did you try firing the unfired caps a second time? If they go bang on the second try, that is usually a sign of poor fit to the nipple. They get mushroomed after awhile especially if you dry fire. Sounds to me like they need replaced or you can file or sand on them to reshape them.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Hellgate, Omnivore, There is a chunk of slag on the frame in the hammer groove and a corresponding scrape mark on the side of the hammer. A dental pick wouldn't remove it at 04:30 this AM and will need my attention when I get off work but I'm believing this is the offender.

it looks like a piece of cap and nang, how stuck can it get? The dental pick was scratching the frame and still it won't come loose. I prefer to avoid surgery befor coffee so I'll be working on it more later.

[mooman76]

Sounds like you are getting a little fouling after the first round of shots and hanging things up. Maybe building up around a spent cap or slag, whatever. I have a Navy I bought off a friend. Frame is a little loose but after a few shots, tightens right up.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I've worked on the spot in the frame groove with an Ex-Acto knife, I think it's machining marks. I'll take the hammer out and file this rough spot down but I now don't think this is the offender.

Remington #10's really burst when they fire, CCI primers fit a lot more snugly and fall out nicely or stay put fire the remained of the six shots.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I took the Colt apart to file off the burr on the frame in the hammer notch and a busted cap fell out with the hammer. Hopefully this was the culprit.

The appearance of the inner workings confirms my maintenance technique is good.

[Hellgate]

Great! Give us the range report on your next go around.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I'm chomping at the bit to hit the range today, Sunday. Will let you know. Plus I have purchased another 1860 Colt 2nd Gen and it should be arriving this week.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Still just clicks, and this gun never missed a beat only weeks ago.

[Hellgate]

To tell whether there is any contact between the hammer face & the nipples I push back on the cylinder as I push forward on the hammer and see it I can move the cylinder by hammer contact. Ideally, the hammer should stop short of actually hitting the nipple by a few thou. If I get no contact at all with the nipples AND get failure to pop the caps I will shim the nipples out a bit so they are either touching or almost. Below is my oft posted dissertation on nipple shimming:

It is easy to shim nipples. Take soft fine steel or bronze wire and coil it around a nail or screw shank about 10 times to make a spiral the diameter of the threaded shank on the nipples. Then with wire cutters snip them off and you end up with a pile of what look like lock washers. I then I take a small hammer and flatten them on the vise pounding surface or an anvil to the desired thickness. They resemble small open ended washers. Slip one onto the shank of the low nipple and screw it in. I use anti-seize lube or heavy lithium grease on the threads so I can get the nipples back out. If the nipple is too high, pound the shim flatter or find some finer wire. If it still isn't tall enough, use two shims or get a thicker piece of wire to start over with. I've done this on several guns and have had no problems with it. If you have too high of a nipple then the hammer face gets battered and may not fire the other nipples or it will get burrs on it that may lift spent caps off the nipples and drop them into the action.

Here's a source for those who don't want to make their own:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-shims/=q5h0dh




Click: "Shims for lenghtening screw shoulders--Metric"


Shoulder diameter of the nipples is 8mm.

Get the screw size 6mm which is the nipple threaded shank size.


Pick the thicknesses you want.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

You know, I have observed the barrel cylinder gap looks like it has opened up a bit which I attributed to play in the wedge as I shoot and disassemble it for cleaning. I have been careful to not wack the wedge in too hard causing undue wear on that critical point. I'll check and advise.

Thank you Hellgate.

[docone31]

That was also a thought. You might have been firing full loads, or thereabouts and deformed the wedge. I had that happen on my Walker. Made a loose cylinder. I hammered the wedge back to shape. The steel had rolled back where the cylinder arbor was, making the cylinder move back and forth when cocked.
Once I reflattened the wedge, it fired much better.
Is your wedge peened where the arbor is?
I love those little pistols. They do have their quirks though.
I have a Dragoon as an addition. I had pondered conicals. Rather than getting a mold, I tried to size a .50 cal ball to .452.
Makes a nice conical with lots of bearing area!
I will get a mold, but that was worth the experiment.
Cool Beans.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

There was excessive play in the cylinder. Placing a cap on the nipple in line with the hammer noted there was still cylinder play. Inspecting the wedge, no visible peen marks are apparent. I've tapped the wedge in until it is up against the retaining screw and that does tighten up the barrel cylinder gap. Placing a cap on the nipple in line with the hammer did tighten up the barrel cylinder gap and reduce almost all the cylinder movement. The feeler gauge at my bench has all the numbers rubbed off so apologies for not posting exact numbers.

Busy day today, not sure I'll be able to hit the range. I'll be chomping at the bit to find out if this solves the problem.

Rather than deformation of the wedge from firing full loads, I believe the tolerances have just loosened up from this being a new gun being fired and cleaned several times.

Round balls seem to work and posts from other shooters indicate the conical boolit doesn't improve anything for them. The top punch attached to the loading lever is shaped for the round ball.

[Hellgate]

The cheapest "feeler gauge" is a folded over piece of copy paper. Most copy paper is .0035" thick. Fold it over once and you get .007" which is my chosen C&B cylinder gap. You can also go to any copy/print shop and buy a sheet of .007" thick paper and cut strips to use as feeler gauges. After cleaning my guns I put a piece of .007" thick paper or a folded copy paper between the cylinder & wedge. As I tap the wedge in I continue til the cylinder "bites" the paper a bit and I am done. This is for Colt style guns.

I will get arguments that that is no way to set a pistol if the arbor is the proper lenght. True, but none of mine are and I am too lazy to fix them so I continue to just use the paper. Works for me.

[JeffG]

I typically ran the gap at .005. Beyond that, if I needed to adjust nipples out a touch, I backed them out to the desired position and shot them. The first shot would foul the nipple threads so they wouldn't move.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Hellgate, I sent you a PM.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Finally got out to the range and sure enough, it functions all better now. The day I was planning on heading out to the range I got into a little shooting scrape with a bad mad in town. That'll bury a modern peace officer in paperwork. The Colt 1860 does fire reliably now. I wasn't driving the wedge all the way in. It was my plan to protect it over time. It does seem my barrel cylinder gap is wider now than it was when I first bought it. I think it must shave or distort metal a little bit when I drive the wedge in. There was one cap which did not fire at the range last Saturday. It fired on the second hit. Looks like there may be a need to back the nipples out in the future to keep this hitting on all six.

[Texantothecore]

I measured mine with a feeler gauge and found that thumb tight gives me .010 which is within Colts specs. I am quite happy with the results as it is quite accurate.

[Col4570]

I had this problem due to spent caps dropping into the mechanism when cocking,I took to cocking the Pieta sideways so that the caps fell out.

[Omnivore]

I have observed the barrel cylinder gap looks like it has opened up a bit which I attributed to play in the wedge as I shoot and disassemble it for cleaning. I have been careful to not wack the wedge in too hard causing undue wear on that critical point.

You know what'll really wear things out? Having a loose wedge while firing the gun.

If your wedge insertion depth is determining the cylinder gap, your gun needs to be corrected. You can use a feeler to set the wedge depth, but if you think it's going to stay put during a day of firing, think again. Your gun is not set up correctly.

The cylinder arbor should be bottomed out inside the barrel, and at that point you should have the proper cylinder gap. When the gun is set up that way, you get a consistent cylinder gap, which does not change during a shooting session.

Pietta Colts are set up this way, while Uberti typically has the floating cylinder gap you all are describing. Fix your revolver and stop futzing around with it. For an Uberti it is a simple matter of installing a shim inside the arbor bore in the barrel, such that you end up with a tight wedge and a repeatable, consistent cylinder gap of between three and five thousandths. Piettas usually have excessive cylinder gap and need to have the cylinder arbor shortened.

There should be a "pre-load", wherein the barrel touches the lower frame about ten thousandths ahead of the arbor bottoming out. This was all covered years ago in the three part article, "Tuning the Pietta" or some such, which you will readily find in a google search.

Any more than four or five thousandths of gap is unnecessary, and will only contribute to more fouling on your cylinder arbor, and reduced velocity.

Once your wedge can be tapped in tight, and your arbor is bottoming out, meaning your cylinder gap is consistent, you'll stop having to fool and futz around as you all are describing, and you can just shoot. You will also find that your gun is more accurate, because the barrel-to-frame relationship remains the same all the time, time after time.

Also a wedge that is in tight does not move, and since it does not move, there will be no wear. That does not mean you're pounding the wedge in with a sledgehammer. I use the plastic butt of a screwdriver-- tap, tap, tap, tap, and it's done. The cylinder gap on my first Colt, from years ago, is the same now as it was when I first adjusted it, and will be the same fifty years from now, so long as my heirs don't abuse the gun all to heck. And it will be using the same wedge.

[bigted]

You know what'll really wear things out? Having a loose wedge while firing the gun.

If your wedge insertion depth is determining the cylinder gap, your gun needs to be corrected. You can use a feeler to set the wedge depth, but if you think it's going to stay put during a day of firing, think again. Your gun is not set up correctly.

The cylinder arbor should be bottomed out inside the barrel, and at that point you should have the proper cylinder gap. When the gun is set up that way, you get a consistent cylinder gap, which does not change during a shooting session.

Pietta Colts are set up this way, while Uberti typically has the floating cylinder gap you all are describing. Fix your revolver and stop futzing around with it. For an Uberti it is a simple matter of installing a shim inside the arbor bore in the barrel, such that you end up with a tight wedge and a repeatable, consistent cylinder gap of between three and five thousandths. Piettas usually have excessive cylinder gap and need to have the cylinder arbor shortened.

There should be a "pre-load", wherein the barrel touches the lower frame about ten thousandths ahead of the arbor bottoming out. This was all covered years ago in the three part article, "Tuning the Pietta" or some such, which you will readily find in a google search.

Any more than four or five thousandths of gap is unnecessary, and will only contribute to more fouling on your cylinder arbor, and reduced velocity.

Once your wedge can be tapped in tight, and your arbor is bottoming out, meaning your cylinder gap is consistent, you'll stop having to fool and futz around as you all are describing, and you can just shoot. You will also find that your gun is more accurate, because the barrel-to-frame relationship remains the same all the time, time after time.

Also a wedge that is in tight does not move, and since it does not move, there will be no wear. That does not mean you're pounding the wedge in with a sledgehammer. I use the plastic butt of a screwdriver-- tap, tap, tap, tap, and it's done. The cylinder gap on my first Colt, from years ago, is the same now as it was when I first adjusted it, and will be the same fifty years from now, so long as my heirs don't abuse the gun all to heck. And it will be using the same wedge.

well said ... I set up my uberti that exact way and she chirps along very reliably and never belch's and snorts. this is proper and a nice tight wedge is what we look for to keep all parts from "sloshing" back n forth which does do damage to everything ... kinda like hitting the revolver with a hammer repeatedly thru out a shooting session.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I just received my second Colt's 1860 Signature Series yesterday. I have to buy a feeler gauge today to post the numbers but the barrel cylinder gap is obviously tighter and the wedge is not tapped in nearly as far on this apparently unfired Colt as is on my other Colt that is only a few months old.

[bigted]

I just received my second Colt's 1860 Signature Series yesterday. I have to buy a feeler gauge today to post the numbers but the barrel cylinder gap is obviously tighter and the wedge is not tapped in nearly as far on this apparently unfired Colt as is on my other Colt that is only a few months old.

try this with your Colts;

- take the barrel off.
- now remove the cylinder.
- now start the "arbor" back into the barrel assembly.
- now before the barrel assembly gets all the way back to the two little studs in the frame "water table" ... turn the barrel assembly slightly enough so that the barrel receiver where those two little studs match up to the frame and enough to just miss the frame just slightly ... now run the barrel assembly onto the arbor till it bottoms out on the barrel assembly female hole.
- now observe where ... in the barrel area where the two little frame studs insert into their corresponding holes in the barrel assembly ... how do the two parts correspond to each other ... im bettin that the barrel assembly has slipped past where the two would have married up with those two little studs on the frame water table.

this is the amount that needs to be built up on the arbor to ensure that there is a perfect alignment between the barrel assembly and the frame ... this so that the barrel gap to the cylinder face is always the exact same.

hope that was explained in fashion to be an intelligent utterance and not raise more questions or misunderstanding.

[Omnivore]

Bigted; You're very close. Better yet, find and read that 3-part article, "Tuning the Pietta" in which the whole process is detailed, with photographs.


The relationship between the barrel and water table is one thing, and the cylinder gap is another, i.e. it is in theory possible to have the correct cylinder gap and still have either too much force into the water table (flexing the arbor and barrel upward) or a gap between the water table and barrel. So you deal with setting the gap and setting the barrel-to-frame relationship as separate issues, gap first.

For my Pietta, which started out with a huge cylinder gap, I had to shorten the arbor by over ten thousandths. That meant the water table joint had too much force on it. Therefore I mounted the barrel between centers on the lathe and turned back the water table mating surface of the barrel. That process also ensures that the barrel’s water table engagement surface is square with the bore.

I'm not sure what I'd do if there was too little pressure there against the water table - probably have to shorten the arbor further and then take some off the breech end of the barrel to restore cylinder gap.

Having the cylinder on the gun, barrel removed, measure the distance from the end of the arbor to the cylinder face. Add a few thousandths to that number for cylinder gap. Let's say that sum is 1.25" for the sake of argument. Now measure the distance from the barrel breech to the bottom of the arbor bore in the barrel. That should also be 1.25", so add shim, or shorten the arbor as necessary. The problem there is, it's hard to get accurate measurements in those instances. So I make the shim a little bit thick, based on my best numbers from having taken the measurements several times. Then install everything and measure the gap. Remove the shim and shave it down as necessary until the gap is between 3 and 5 thousandths. Any more gap than that is totally unnecessary. I like three to four.

My latest technique is, I thread the shim in the center - drill a hole in it on the lathe and tap the hole. That way I can remove the shim from down inside the barrel using a threaded rod, and also face off the shim on the lathe as it's held on that same threaded rod. Fitting the shim tight into the barrel hole means it won't fall out and get lost when cleaning the gun, or you could epoxy it in place if you're careful not to epoxy your barrel onto the gun. If you don't have a lathe you can still do it, using a punch to cut out some brass shim stock, or if it has to be thicker than that you could use thicker sheet stock which you cut out and file to thickness. But a lathe makes it much easier and more precise.

I still don't have a great way to shorten an arbor nice and square, but making up a faceplate accessory for the lathe that grabs onto the rear grip frame screw holes in the gun frame has occurred to me. Since the arbor reaches out in front of the frame you could use a steady-rest at the front end. I currently have a Pietta '60 Army which needs that treatment. Either that or order an end-cutting reamer to deepen the barrel hole, but there's not a lot of room for that in a '60 Army 'cause the loading lever cutout is right in front of that surface.

And of course you have to get all that stuff resolved before you consider adjusting the sights, ‘cause changing the barrel-to-frame fit will change the POI.

When it’s all done you’ll get more velocity with a cleaner burn, less arbor fouling and better accuracy with a more consistent POI from shooting session to shooting session, and assembly will no longer involve fiddle-farting with the wedge depth – just tap it in firm, and go.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The barrel cylinder gap on my new unfired Colt 1860 is .002" while the barrel cylinder gap on my couple of months old Colt 1860 is .010"

When I got my first Colt 1860 the barrel cylinder was real tight, just like my new is now. I don't understand why it's opened up so much.

The wedge of my new Colt 1860 is not pushed in very far, it just clears the exit slot. The wedge of my older Colt 1860 is pushed in all the way and yet the barrel cylinder gap has opened up. When I first got my older Colt 1860 the wedge was just pushed in until it cleared the exit slot. Now I have to push it in all the way and yet the barrel cylinder gap has opened up.

I am puzzled by this. Being new to cap pistols I am seeking to understand the why which all about these things. I am smitten by cap pistols like drunkard to his drink tho.

What is an "arbor?"