Bullet Lube after the Shot

[billdean]

Been trying to get a good hunting load ready for this season. I have been getting really high Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads when working up my loads which in the past seemed to suggest I have not found the specific charge the gun likes. I weight each powder charge. After checking my 100 yard target I decided to dig for some of my bullets in the sand bank to see how they were preforming. To my surprise the bullets still have the lube in the lube grooves after being shot. All though I am not experiencing any leading in the barrel I am wondering if this would be normal?? I asked this because my loads seem to clime or raise in elevation the more I shoot.

[Tatume]

Welcome to the forum.

It is not unusual to find lube in cast bullets after they have been fired. I presume your sd and es refer to speed; what do you consider to be "really high?"

What type of gun are you shooting? What cartridge? Many times point of impact for handguns rises as the shooter gets tired (even slightly) and relaxes the grip. This allows the gun to rise more when fired.

It is highly unlikely that there is a systematic error in the ammunition that would lead to an increase in speed as shots are fired. However, I have observed the same apparent behavior, but attribute it to serendipity.

Take care, Tom

[44man]

You do not want lube left. It should all spin out at the muzzle. The lube you have is too hard and not all will leave so you have boolits out of balance.
Bore condition will affect those numbers. Poor lube will change SD and ES.
It sounds like you are buying boolits.

[billdean]

Sorry a Marlin 45-70 1895 is my rifle. Yes speed would be correct all though I am not looking for fast bullets. ES=280 and SD=120 44grains of H322 powder is way to much. I have loaded this 45-70 in the past with 52 to 54 grains of H322 with great results. Just wanting an accurate load thats not so punishing using the same powder. Exceptable SD to me are the lower the better around 10 same with the ES 15, 20

[billdean]

You do not want lube left. It should all spin out at the muzzle. The lube you have is too hard and not all will leave so you have boolits out of balance.
Bore condition will affect those numbers. Poor lube will change SD and ES.
It sounds like you are buying boolits.

I am casting my own bullets but buying my lube. It just seems I got a lot better result when I used another lube with the same work up. I agree with your statement. I thought the lube should be used up in the bore.

[Larry Gibson]

What's the bullet you're casting?

What's the lubes you're using?

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

H322 is quite position sensitive. A partially filled case is your problem, it would appear.

[MBTcustom]

I have lots of experience with that rifle, and I've tried quite a few lube methods.
The two that work best are:
50/50 bees wax and olive oil (thank you Larry Gobson!)

and now I shall duck behind a fireproof wall when I say the other method is POWDER COAT.
You should try it. Works real well in 45-70.

[billdean]

H322 is quite position sensitive. A partially filled case is your problem, it would appear.

Yes.......I would agree. It shoots much better at closer to max loads. How about using a filler in the case?

[white eagle]

try another powder if you can
I use rel 7 and 3031 with good results

[billdean]

What's the bullet you're casting?

What's the lubes you're using?

Larry Gibson

46-350VG by Accurate Mold.
I am not sure it would be appropriate to say who's lube I am using seeing he sell it here on CB. I would rather talk with him about the lube. Lets say a lot of people here use it.

[stubert]

I have been using 50/50 beeswax- moly grease. no leading, and no heater required in my 45-70.

[billdean]

I have lots of experience with that rifle, and I've tried quite a few lube methods.
The two that work best are:
50/50 bees wax and olive oil (thank you Larry Gobson!)

and now I shall duck behind a fireproof wall when I say the other method is POWDER COAT.
You should try it. Works real well in 45-70.

Thanks GoodSteel..........Thats a pretty simple lube, beeswax and olive oil. I just happen to have both on hand. I whipped up a bit to try a minute ago. With a clean barrel to start, I did not experience any leading after shooting 12 shots. I really like the H322 powder on jacketed bullets but on cast you have to really crank up the charge (50+ grains) for better results. I have some IMR4198 I use in my 430g HC Bullets. I may have to try that for a lighter better shooting load.

[runfiverun]

use the tuft of Dacron with the 322 [as a case filler] it is very position sensitive.
[runfiveslittlegirl] done a write-up on the position sensitivity of H-322 in the 7.65 argentine rifles about 5-6 years back.
it should be in the archives here somewhere.
but it shows the velocity difference between 3 different barrel lengths, ES and vertical stringing, and how a filler will position the powder to control the ES of a cast load.
]that's if you believe a teenage girl on the internet[

[plainsman456]

I shoot a 325+- home cast with 2500+ for lube.

I could care less if the lube stays on if i get the groups i want and the velocity i want to shoot.

So far this has not disappointed me.
The rifle in question is a Marlin 95 with a 22 in.barrel.
It shoots to point of aim out to 150 yards which is all i ask of it.
I also use the same lube for pistol loads both magnums and the normal ones.
To add i have had no leading so far on any of the firearms that have shot this lube/lead mix.
Hope you get it working for you.

[billdean]

use the tuft of Dacron with the 322 [as a case filler] it is very position sensitive.
[runfiveslittlegirl] done a write-up on the position sensitivity of H-322 in the 7.65 argentine rifles about 5-6 years back.
it should be in the archives here somewhere.
but it shows the velocity difference between 3 different barrel lengths, ES and vertical stringing, and how a filler will position the powder to control the ES of a cast load.
]that's if you believe a teenage girl on the internet[

Thanks Run.........I was wondering if that was the case. I have seen the closer you come to a full charged case the lower the SD and ES, and the better the groups. Sometimes by quite a bit.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned H322 is position sensitive in the 45-70, especially with that bullet weight. Use the Dacron filler with it as runfiverun recommends.

The makers of lubes here understand that some lubes only work best in some applications and all lubes do not work equally well in all applications. That's why many make more than one kind of lube; for different applications. If you want to know an easy way to whip up some beeswax/olive oil lube I can post it.

Larry Gibson

[billdean]

As mentioned H322 is position sensitive in the 45-70, especially with that bullet weight. Use the Dacron filler with it as runfiverun recommends.

The makers of lubes here understand that some lubes only work best in some applications and all lubes do not work equally well in all applications. That's why many make more than one kind of lube; for different applications. If you want to know an easy way to whip up some beeswax/olive oil lube I can post it.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry...........I would like to see your post on beeswax/olive oil. I will have to find some dacron filler or try another powder.

[MikeS]

46-350VG by Accurate Mold.
I am not sure it would be appropriate to say who's lube I am using seeing he sell it here on CB. I would rather talk with him about the lube. Lets say a lot of people here use it.

Bill, It's always appropriate to mention what lube you're using. Just because a forum member is making/selling it is no reason not to mention it's name. First off, your experience with the lube isn't going to be everyone's, I think most forum members know that, and by mentioning what lube you're using you might just find that another forum member has had the same experience as you, but found a fix for the problem that they can easily pass on to you, but if you don't say what lube you're using you'll never learn if another forum member has a fix for your problem with that specific lube. Besides, if the 'fix' is to switch lubes, then you won't be buying it anymore, whereas if a forum member tells you something like "just add 2oz of XXX to the lube and you'll be good to go" and that works good (XXX being whatever it might be that might fix it), then you'll continue to buy that lube, and maybe the forum member that's selling it might modify their formula as a result (or offer another version of their lube), so by mentioning their lube you're actually doing them a favor in the long run. And lastly a member here that's SELLING lube is a vendor just like any other, and should be able to stand up to a person mentioning having a problem with their product. Actually a vendor that's also a forum member has a chance to answer posts about their product, whereas if the lube was made by a non-forum member they wouldn't have a chance to chime in to either offer help, or defend themselves, whichever is needed.

[303Guy]

Is lube left in the grooves always a problem? What do the targets say? I've found boolits with all the lube in the grooves and am thinking that if all the boolits carry all their lube then there shouldn't be a problem. Just wondering?

[OnHoPr]

"I asked this because my loads seem to clime or raise in elevation the more I shoot."


That could be a case of barrel heat if you are shooting to fast between shots. I have never shot H322, so I do not know its flame or temp characteristics.

[billdean]

Bill, It's always appropriate to mention what lube you're using. Just because a forum member is making/selling it is no reason not to mention it's name. First off, your experience with the lube isn't going to be everyone's, I think most forum members know that, and by mentioning what lube you're using you might just find that another forum member has had the same experience as you, but found a fix for the problem that they can easily pass on to you, but if you don't say what lube you're using you'll never learn if another forum member has a fix for your problem with that specific lube. Besides, if the 'fix' is to switch lubes, then you won't be buying it anymore, whereas if a forum member tells you something like "just add 2oz of XXX to the lube and you'll be good to go" and that works good (XXX being whatever it might be that might fix it), then you'll continue to buy that lube, and maybe the forum member that's selling it might modify their formula as a result (or offer another version of their lube), so by mentioning their lube you're actually doing them a favor in the long run. And lastly a member here that's SELLING lube is a vendor just like any other, and should be able to stand up to a person mentioning having a problem with their product. Actually a vendor that's also a forum member has a chance to answer posts about their product, whereas if the lube was made by a non-forum member they wouldn't have a chance to chime in to either offer help, or defend themselves, whichever is needed.

I suspect your right on this. When using the lube (TAC 1) I have experience no leading, but my SD and ES seem a bit extreme as compared to a softer lube. I also am a bit curious as 44Man has pointed out that if the bullet lube is not consumed in the barrel, the bullets could come out of the barrel unbalanced, causing a decline in accuracy, explaining the wide spreads on my chronograph. There is also the issue of H322 being a bit position sensitive which would account for some of this also. The fix may be another powder, though I have have great success with H322 in my 45-70 using different bullets, and I no how it preforms in different seasons, winter to summer. TAC 1 may preform better for me when the weather cools down a bit or maybe adding a little something to soften it maybe all thats needed. Others have suggested the use of a case filler which I will try also.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, I've shot H-322 in my .45/70's with excellent results, but that's with higher pressure loads. Have had great results with 57 gr. and 300 gr. JHP's, but haven't tried it at lower pressure levels, so I picked up some useful info here. I've used 2400 and 3031 at lower pressure levels, and gotten good results, FWIW?

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks Larry...........I would like to see your post on beeswax/olive oil. I will have to find some dacron filler or try another powder.

Beeswax/virgin Olive Oil Lube

In a small sauce pan filled about 1/3 with water place asmall (pint size) Pyrex measuring cup with the handle over the edge of the pan.Pour in 4 oz of virgin olive oil and place on an electric stove to heat up."Ounces" are by volume and I simply use the "ounce" scaleon the side of the Pyrex cup. I bringthe water to just short of boiling (this set up is referred to as a “doubleboiler”). Add pure beeswax in small chunks until there is 9 oz of meltedmixture in the Pyrex cup. I stir it with a wood tongue depressor, popsiclestick or whatever. This makes a 4 – 5part mix (olive oil to beeswax). Ofcourse larger amounts may be made but adjust the amounts to maintain the 4-5part mix.

The melted lube may be poured into the reservoir of a lube/sizer.It will cool and harden in short order and is immediately useable. I leave theremainder of the mix in the Pyrex cup (wife made me buy her a new one after thefirst use) and store it in a gallon Ziploc bag (keeps it clean). When more lubeis needed just put the Pyrex cup with lube into the sauce pan of water and meltit on the electric stove again. It is useable this way until the mix isdepleted or you add more beeswax and olive oil (in the proper 4-5 proportion)to make more.

With some bullets I hand lube them while watching a goodmovie on TV. I cut the wood tongue depressor at a 45 degree angle on one endmaking a sort of knife edge. I scrape a small amount off the cold lube mix androll it between my thumb and fore finger. The lube becomes soft and malleablevery quickly. It is then rubbed into the lube grooves on the bullets. I canusually do a couple hundred 405 HBs, REALs or Maxi-Balls during a John Wayne flick.A couple paper towels control any messy fingers to keep the wife happy. Iprefer this method over the pan lube method as I find that pretty messy.However, this lube works well with the pan lube method.

I have found this simple and easy to make lube to be everybit as effective as any of the witchcraft brews often recommended. I’ve alsofound it as good as SPG. I’ve not found any difference in the bore foulingusing this lube with BP as with any other lube. The fouling remains as soft foras long as the others. Accuracy with this lube is also the equal of any others.I recommend it because it is easy to make out of inexpensive components and itworks.

I also put precut ML patches in a zip lock bag with a gob ofthe beeswax/olive oil lube and microwave until the lube melts. I then knead the patches until they aresoaked with the lube. More lube is addedif needed. They are then great for usein my 45 and 50 cal MLs with RBs.

I have found this lube works quite well with handgun andrifle cast bullets having the older style larger lube grooves when used withsmokeless powder. I have thoroughlytested this lube upwards of 1800+ fps w/o any leading given a proper alloy andfit of bullet. I take no credit for themethod used to make neither this lube nor the ingredients as I got the basicsfrom Spence Wolf some years ago. Spencerecommended a 50/50 mix as an all round choice. The parts of beeswax to olive oil may be varied to fit the ambienttemperature conditions when hunting. More olive oil means a softer lube in colder climates. In NE Oregon during the cold winter elkseason I found 4 parts beeswax to 5 parts olive oil kept the lube soft downinto freezing temperatures. Spence’s50/50 was fine for moderate climates but I found the 5 to 4 parts in the aboverecipe to work best in temperatures of 65 + degrees. It is even a little soft down here in Arizonain 95 – 110 degrees though. The consistencemay vary a bit based on the beeswax used also.

Larry Gibson

[BAGTIC]

I have been finding cast bullets with lube in the grooves for more than 60 years. Some have all grooves full some on a few. If that lube is not coming off in the bore how is it contributing to lubrication? Most handgun rounds operate at velocities similar to .22 LR.. If the .22 functions successfully with a 'dip' wax type lube why should centerfires require any more? I have been tumble lubing for 30+ years. Could it be that an important reason for those deep grooves full of lube is tradition left over from black powder muzzle loading days . It wouldn't be the only example.

[BAGTIC]

The problem is that all of them don't carry all of the lube. It is inconsistent.

[44man]

The worst boolits I ever shot were sent to me. Half the lube was in the bottom of the box so most boolits only had lube in a few places. I cleaned a bunch and put better lube on them to have an accuracy increase to brag about.
You would never want air pockets in a boolit but create the same condition with a lube.