Cecil the lion shows shifting attitudes toward Africa's big game

[M-Tecs]

On Friday, a group of Democratic senators introduced legislation – named after the black-maned lion – that aims to curb the practice of trophy hunting.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/cecil-the-lion-shows-shifting-attitudes-toward-africas-big-game/ar-BBlkQOU

Cecil the lion shows shifting attitudes toward Africa's big gamehttp://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB4vYRY.img?h=50&w=50&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=f&f=png http://static-news-eus.s-msn.com/sc/9b/e151e5.gifChristian Science Monitor
Howard LaFranchi2 hrs ago

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http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBllgn2.img?h=75&w=100&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=fTent blows off in storm, kills 1 near Chicago

(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/en-us/news/other/tent-blows-off-mooring-during-storm-and-kills-1-near-chicago/ar-BBlkHwt)
http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBlkHZR.img?h=75&w=100&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=fCrash grounds Russian helicopters

(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/en-us/news/world/crash-grounds-russian-helicopters/ar-BBlkSda)
http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBlkKwB.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1485&y=785© Paula French/REX Cecil the Black maned Lion on the plains in Hwange National Park pictured on 18 November 2012. Paula French/REX

Cecil the lion may have died an ignoble death – but his slaughter at the hands of an American dentist is prompting action from the United States Senate to the United Nations.
Cecil’s killing is certainly not the first time an African lion has died for sport. But the global outrage it has spawned underscores how rising sensitivities about wild animals, the growing menace of poaching and international trade in animal parts, and social media have intersected to create an international cause for action.
On Friday, a group of Democratic senators introduced legislation – named after the black-maned lion – that aims to curb the practice of trophy hunting.
That initiative followed passage of a resolution at the UN General Assembly Thursday calling for heightened global cooperation to stem the rising trade in animal parts, particularly of coveted but increasingly threatened African wildlife.
Cecil, a well-known and collared resident of Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe, was killed by Minnesota dentist Walter Palmer after the cat was lured out of his protected habitat and shot – first with an arrow, then with a gun. Mr. Palmer then beheaded Cecil, the subject of many tourists’ and researchers’ videos, to mount the head as a trophy.
Zimbabwean authorities have labeled Palmer a “foreign poacher” and are seeking his extradition. Palmer, who remained in seclusion in the US as a result of the uproar, has said he did not know Cecil was a protected animal.
That Cecil, killed earlier this month, so quickly became such a well-known lion reflects the growing global alarm over threats to Africa’s iconic wildlife. Elephants have been killed by the tens of thousands in recent years as poachers seek their tusks for growing ivory markets, while rhinoceroses have been slaughtered to the verge of extinction for their coveted horns.
International efforts to stop the slaughter and stem the illegal trade in animal parts have been growing. Last week, President Obama used his visit to Kenya to announce new measures to cut off the ivory trade to the US, the world’s second-largest market for ivory after China. Mr. Obama’s action was quickly followed by the widely publicized poaching of a female elephant and four of her calves in a Kenyan refuge.
But the outpouring of initiatives in response to Cecil’s death appears unprecedented.
At the UN, the General Assembly approved measures aimed at curbing money laundering tied to poaching and directed Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to study the problem and propose additional actions next year.
“The time to act is now,” Germany’s ambassador to the UN, Harald Braun, told the 193-member assembly. “No one country, region, or agency working alone will be able to succeed” in tackling what he said had become an urgent global issue.
The Senate legislation, authored by Robert Menendez (D) of New Jersey and cosponsored by three other Democratic senators, would extend existing restrictions on the import and export of officially listed endangered species to animals begin considered for inclusion under the Endangered Species Act – like lions.
The legislation is called the Conserving Ecosystems by Ceasing the Importation of Large Animal Trophies Act – or the CECIL Act.
“Cecil’s death was a preventable tragedy that highlights the need to extend the protections of the Endangered Species Act,” Senator Menendez said in a statement Friday. “When we have enough concern about the future of a species to propose it for listing, we should not be killing it for sport.
American hunters are responsible for about half of the trophy killings of elephants and lions, according to the International Fund for Animal Welfare, a London-based global organization for animal protection and welfare.
Even state legislators are getting into the act.
In New Jersey, a law proposed in the aftermath of Cecil’s death would ban the import of endangered or threatened species through Kennedy, LaGuardia, and Newark Liberty airports, the three airports managed by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.
This article was written by Howard LaFranchi from Christian Science Monitor and was legally licensed through the NewsCred publisher network

[winchester85]

perfect, now those 3rd world toilets will get no money from wealthy hunters.

[tonyjones]

If safari hunting of lion, elephant, etc. is stopped for whatever reason, conservation funding will dry up in short order, suitable habitat for wildlife will be lost, expensive anti-poaching programs will cease to exist and these magnificent animals will mostly be gone in a very few short years. TJ

[starmac]

ONE step at a time. This is a test, just a test, nothing to see here.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As the proposed legislation is describe, it is a much needed measure to stop the commercial trade in wildlife products. That in itself is necessary and praiseworthy. The continuing trade in such products as ivory, tiger whiskers and rhinoceros horn, and the political corruption and gangsterism it sponsors in Africa, are scandalous.

There are snags, though. America offers a considerable market for ivory, but not much for anything else endangered, unless a lot of people are relying on rhinoceros horn as an aphrodisiac, and not telling. It is a source of supply for almost nothing, except bear parts, often poached but not even vulnerable.

It may just be political or media spin that says the proposed legislation would extend existing restrictions on the import and export of officially listed endangered species to animals begin considered for inclusion under the Endangered Species Act – like lions. Lions are listed by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature as vulnerable, and vulnerable means likely to become endangered if present conditions and practices continue. It sounds like all vulnerable species might qualify, and if so, it would depend on the ongoing judgment of an external body. You might as well go for the even greater credit in the eyes of the world by doing it for the International Criminal Court. The current CITES treaty allows the trade in many species from countries which have achieved a stable population, while banning it from those that haven't. But the species has been considered in all cases.

The other thing is that Cecil's body parts weren't going to be traded in. The status of the lion in the wild is indeed worrying, and its population has declined greatly in our lifetimes. But the great majority of that decline has occurred for the protection of livestock and humans. Not being killed by lions seems an understandable ambition. Only a small proportion of the population loss has involved export of trophies to the developed nations. It seems like aspiring legislators are jumping on the chance to use a fashionable name.

[DCP]

ONE step at a time. This is a test, just a test, nothing to see here.

Plus 1 wake up people

[pmer]

Yeah hunting!

[shooter93]

It would be the end of all the banned animals and open season for poachers. Money will be gone, park and ranger staff cut severely and the market for the poached goods will grow larger than ever. The hope of all those species has relied on legitimate hunters.

[dragon813gt]

I've been avoiding all discussions about Cecil the lion. But these idiot senators are sealing the fate of the animals they want to "protect". They will effectively kill them. They have monetary value which is why they are around and thriving. Take away the monetary value and they will be wiped out by the locals and poachers.

Another case where a bunch of idiots are getting involved in something they know nothing about. Hunters are responsible for more conservation and preservation than any animal rights group. But you never hear this side of the story. Take the money away and watch everything fall apart in short order. Why people wish to ignore a big part of human nature is beyond me.

[starmac]

What animal rights group actually helps with any conservation and / or preservation of wildlife.
They have tried this same thing, and still do anytime a hunter post his quarry on social media, they have been trying for years, but social media has been a boon to their cause. They may get some headway this time just mainly because someone stuck a name on this one.

[JWT]

I see Delta will no longer fly trophies out of Africa. They have listed lion, elephant, and buffalo. Buffalo are common. This should effectively cripple all of the hunting industry in Africa.

[starmac]

This isn't about Africa guys, it is about hunting in general. How long before DELTA does the same thing to trophies taken in Alaska, Canada, Utah, etc, etc.

[xacex]

This isn't about Africa guys, it is about hunting in general. How long before DELTA does the same thing to trophies taken in Alaska, Canada, Utah, etc, etc.
That is my worry as well. Grandpa had a pool table room full of African trophies he shot in Africa in the castle, and I always admired them. There were lions, and zebras, buffalo, and cheetah. I wonder if it is time to get over our differences, and go hunting back in Africa before he is gone, and the opportunity to hunt in Africa is gone. Funny thing is, he was also a dentist. Shoot, with that much information someone can figure out my real identity.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is my worry as well. Grandpa had a pool table room full of African trophies he shot in Africa in the castle, and I always admired them. There were lions, and zebras, buffalo, and cheetah. I wonder if it is time to get over our differences, and go hunting back in Africa before he is gone, and the opportunity to hunt in Africa is gone. Funny thing is, he was also a dentist. Shoot, with that much information someone can figure out my real identity.

The white hunter hoping for a tyrannosaurus in "Jurassic Park: the Lost World" was tired of escorting rich dentists. My wife's dentist, a very efficient and obliging Polish immigrant, was charged with lewd staring at girls in the local swimming pool. Apparently part of the evidence was that they were the only ones wearing bikinis. The charges were eventually dropped, but not till after an initial court appearance, bail and reports in the papers. Part of it, I'm convinced, is that lots of people have great admiration for their doctors, but dentists tend to be unloved.

I would suspect that countries with well organized tourist industries make a lot more money from the camera-clickers than from hunters. That is part of the problem. A well known ham actor like Cecil is worth a lot more as a business asset than a sensible lion which is nocturnal and stays well away from the road.

[Handloader109]

What you are going to have is in a few countries that are smart is a couple of large zoos. Tjey won't be called zoos, they will be called conservation reservations. But they will be zoos for all practical purposes. Plenty of camera time. The rest of the unprotected game will be extinct.

[dragon813gt]

I would suspect that countries with well organized tourist industries make a lot more money from the camera-clickers than from hunters. That is part of the problem. A well known ham actor like Cecil is worth a lot more as a business asset than a sensible lion which is nocturnal and stays well away from the road.

How many camera clickers pay $50,000 to take a picture of a lion? How many $200,000 to take a picture of a rhino? Those numbers aren't exaggerated. A bunch of my customers are big time safari hunters. The price for tags runs into the hundreds of thousands depending on the animal. And that money goes directly to protecting the species. It's going to take a lot of tourists w/ cameras to equal that amount of money. Hunting in Africa is a lot bigger than the media leads you to believe.

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC Kenya forbade big game hunting many years ago in order to protect their big game animals.

Then there was 0 money to pay the folks that were supposed to watch over and protect those animals.

Unfortunately the poachers read the new law as open season on all big game without regard to age or sex so guess what is left in Kenya?

[DCP]

Well Delta its your business you can do what you want.
Ups Fedex USPS wont ship guns, power, primers LEAD ? Choose your poison.
I think its time maybe to liquidate my retirement. It wont be long now

SAD SAD SAD

[pmer]

The dentist should've taken notes from how Trump handles criticism. Be loud and proud and use the moment to teach how it works over there as far dollars, hunting and conservation. He might be back to cleaning teeth by now. Instead he took the "I'm sorry route" and asked for mercy from people that have none. Hunting won't stop over there but if it can be controlled there will be plenty for both the hunters and photo takers.

[Bad Water Bill]

Hunting won't stop over there but if it can be controlled there will be plenty for both the hunters and photo takers.

Not for much longer from reports I was given from a friend.

Several of the folks he has heard from have cancelled their hunts or plans to hunt there because they do not want to endure the same garbage this Dentist is being subjected to.

No hunters = no money to fund the parks the the photographers like to visit and no money to keep the poachers out of the parks and no food for the families or tribes that benefited from the hunts.

How long till PITA steps up to replace the money lost if and when hunting is forbidden there?

[dragon813gt]

How long till PITA steps up to replace the money lost if and when hunting is forbidden there?

When hell freezes over. They won't contribute a dime. They are one of the worse originations around.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

IIRC Kenya forbade big game hunting many years ago in order to protect their big game animals.

Then there was 0 money to pay the folks that were supposed to watch over and protect those animals.

Unfortunately the poachers read the new law as open season on all big game without regard to age or sex so guess what is left in Kenya?

I think that is another US hunter's superstition. Tourism is Kenya's second source of income after farming, and amounts to £257 million a year. You can imagine what proportion of that is made up of $50,000 dentists.

[rosewood]

I think that is another US hunter's superstition. Tourism is Kenya's second source of income after farming, and amounts to £257 million a year. You can imagine what proportion of that is made up of $50,000 dentists.
257 million a year? Where does that money go? Still millions starving. Makes you wonder who is in charge over there.

[dkf]

I am no fan of the way a lot of these animals are "hunted". However this is not a US problem that requires new laws here in the US.(especially knee jerk laws by ignorant Democrats) The law and enforcement regarding these animals should be made and enforced by the countries which these animals reside in, period.

[starmac]

Hunting is done much the same way in many parts of this country, and is big money in this country too. This uproar is not about a lion or how things are done in Africa, Cecil is just a pawn that got some traction through social media, used to condemn all hunting. In headlines today are two more cases of people being threatened because they had pictures of their trophys on a social site.

[waksupi]

https://video-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xpf1/v/t42.1790-2/757005_400410886723562_763171594_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHI iOjYxNywicmxhIjoxNzk2LCJ2ZW5jb2RlX3RhZyI6ImxlZ2Fje V9zZCJ9&rl=617&vabr=343&oh=0867ce6e90fd9cac4f07686 f0068f6d0&oe=55C11DC3

How they do it on Africa. Graphic!

[starmac]

All I got out of that Waksupi, is a sorry something went wrong message. lol

[waksupi]

All I got out of that Waksupi, is a sorry something went wrong message. lol

I didn't see an easy way to post he video, it's on Facebook. African drive hunt, hundreds of natives killing plains game, buff, elephant, hippo with spears. I'd rather take the arrow!

https://www.facebook.com/rasoolrehmanwazirDubai/videos/346351772129474/?pnref=story

[starmac]

Yea, I don't do face book, but have seen videos of the type you are talking about. I would imagine they have been killing them like that way before powder or even bows were invented.

[M-Tecs]

[/QUOTE]http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3334128#post3334128) IIRC Kenya forbade big game hunting many years ago in order to protect their big game animals.

Then there was 0 money to pay the folks that were supposed to watch over and protect those animals.

Unfortunately the poachers read the new law as open season on all big game without regard to age or sex so guess what is left in Kenya?[/QUOTE]


I think that is another US hunter's superstition. Tourism is Kenya's second source of income after farming, and amounts to £257 million a year. You can imagine what proportion of that is made up of $50,000 dentists.

Kenya before the hunting ban had an incredible amount of wildlife outside the parks. Wildlife outside the parks in Kenya is now severely limited. When wildlife has value to a landowner it thrives. When it becomes a liability is disappears.
http://www.rexano.org/ConservationPages/Kenya_Frame.htm

[bdicki]

Cecil beanie baby.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/04/world/cecil-lion-beanie-baby/index.html

[Clay M]

I have always wanted to hunt the Cape Buffalo.I bought two rifles to do that with back in the late 90's One was a .458 win ,and the other a .416 Rem. Both were Model 70 win safari grade rifles.
I had the money and was going , then 9/11 happened. I decided not to leave the country at that time.
Other things took priority and I never got to go.
The Cape and the Elk are the only two animals I really care to hunt.
I still go into the woods with my rifle in the fall to hunt whitetail deer. Mostly to experience the Fall and honor my father who taught me to hunt.
I rarely fire a shot unless it is for meat.
I grew up as an avid hunter.I was trained to do that from the time I was six years old.
Now I just use it as an excuse to get outdoors, because I know when I fire a shot the real work begins.
I am a target shooter . I love testing loads and making rifles shoot.

No ,I would NOT hunt an endangered species, and NO I have never baited and animal for a hunt.
I never felt it necessary to do either, and I have a wall full of trophy game heads.
Actually four walls.

I rent land to guys who bait deer. If that is how they get their Jollies out of Hock ,it is noting to me. I just collect the money.

If you want a real hunt , then hunt the Cape with a long bow. I believe you would have to have balls of steel to pull that off.
I could probably make the shot ,but would not want the tracking job.
When I was fourteen, I had no Scent Lok, no face net ,and I stood in the cold for hours just for one shot with my bow. I was dedicated to the sport. Now I am not.
Now I would rather listen to Steve Hackett, and Gary Moore play guitar ,and try to figure out how the did it.

I think the dentist is a joke. :lol:I hope he enjoys his fame. He earned it.

[fatelk]

That is my worry as well. Grandpa had a pool table room full of African trophies he shot in Africa in the castle, and I always admired them. There were lions, and zebras, buffalo, and cheetah. I wonder if it is time to get over our differences, and go hunting back in Africa before he is gone, and the opportunity to hunt in Africa is gone. Funny thing is, he was also a dentist. Shoot, with that much information someone can figure out my real identity.

I've got it narrowed down to either Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne. :)

[JWT]

I also dreamed of cape buffalo. To that end, I picked up a 416 Rigby and a 458 WinMag. Looks like Africa is out. Anyone know where I can find a Yeti or Sasquatch?

[Clay M]

I also dreamed of cape buffalo. To that end, I picked up a 416 Rigby and a 458 WinMag. Looks like Africa is out. Anyone know where I can find a Yeti or Sasquatch?

I sold my two rifles. I am sure I will never get to go ,as I no longer have the money. Plus my wife is sick.
They were great rifles..I had them set up right.

[dh2]

this is the part I was worried about from the start of this, giving the anti hunting bunch some thing to work with, I have heard no one on the pro-hunting side say that the way Cicil was killed was right . it was 1 of 6000 hunted yes charge who ever guide or hunter with what they did wrong, but for the country's that have sport hunting for African big game bring in some big money for having it. Kinya stopped sport hunting years ago now they would love to have the income.

[starmac]

While no one said it was right, many did not say it was wrong either. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and most of the noise is from antis or hunters that disapprove of trophy hunting, or hunters that disapprove of bait, The guy was gutted, gilled fried and served up by antis and hunters alike, before any trial.
The way I understand it even the safary club gave him up without waiting to see if he was actually guilty of a crime, well now there is a call for legislation to stop all of their activities, Delta has done their part to stop it, others will follow.
I do not for one minute belive it will stop at hunting African game, how long before airlines decide to stop transporting Alaskan game (which is BIG money too), Canada game and so on down the line, until it is illegal to shoot a rabbit in your own back forty.

[blackthorn]

While no one said it was right, many did not say it was wrong either. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and most of the noise is from antis or hunters that disapprove of trophy hunting, or hunters that disapprove of bait, The guy was gutted, gilled fried and served up by antis and hunters alike, before any trial.
The way I understand it even the safary club gave him up without waiting to see if he was actually guilty of a crime, well now there is a call for legislation to stop all of their activities, Delta has done their part to stop it, others will follow.
I do not for one minute belive it will stop at hunting African game, how long before airlines decide to stop transporting Alaskan game (which is BIG money too), Canada game and so on down the line, until it is illegal to shoot a rabbit in your own back forty.

^^^^^This. Once there is no more hunting, it is only one small step to "no need for guns of any kind in the publics hands"!

[starmac]

Exactly...... We give up one dentist without any noise, and give up a whole lot of ground to noisy bleeding hearts.

I do not doubt the lion was taken without the right permits.
I do have serious doubts that an American hunter was able to research and find a licensed outfitter intintually to take a lion illegally. Even if he did, would a guy pay thousands for the oppurtunity to kill a lion, knowing it was illegal and the trophy could never be brought home???

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I saw on the news last night that one airline will no longer transport mounted big game animals. On that note I would like to tell about a friend of mine who went to Africa several times to hunt. He only hunted with a 54 caliber muzzle loader and he used saboted slugs. He also hunted in New Zealand and South America as well as Alaska and several western states. He also went on overseas fishing trips and had many of the fish mounted. He built a large two story log house with a huge trophy room. I once asked him how much he spent on taxidermy fees. He said it was between 350 and 500 K. After living in the big house for several years his back began to hurt him so much that he spent most of his time on his back in a recliner. They put the big house up for sale and the real estate lady said it would sell better if he sold all those stuffed animals. He contacted an auction house and they sold them for pennies on the dollar. His large male African lion brought two thousand. He bought a smaller one story house and he kept some of the American deer he had shot, both white tail and mule. I went to see him last week in his new digs and he had hired a guy to hang the deer heads over his very large TV. This friend told me that the hunting guides and all the people who work for them as well as the various taxidermy shops will be out of business if hunting is out lawed and that is all the natives know how to do. I took pictures of all his trophies but I am too lazy to attach them to this post. Maybe later in the week

[Bad Water Bill]

The dentist contracted a corporation that had to view ALL of his licenses and paperwork to be sure he was fully compliant with that countries rules and regulations BEFORE he was allowed to enter the country. Once he was there the PFs that the corp assigned to him was supposed to provide the housing, trackers etc as well as making sure he stayed within the laws.

The questions that have not been answered are was the bait trail started inside of the park and did the lion ever leave the park,how often and at what hours of the day.

The university has not answered any of these questions nor has the PHs.

Yet PITA and other groups have been allowed to ruin his life and career.

Yes he spent big bucks to HUNT a lion and he took his chances of a successful hunt never dreaming his life was about to be ruined over a lion.

I only hope when he is cleared he has enough money to go after PITA and the others that have ruined his life and takes them for every penny he can and then some.

Then go after his state for pulling his dental license before he has had a trial.

[xacex]

I've got it narrowed down to either Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne. :)
Getin close lol. I do know Lindsay Wagner.

[starmac]

I wasn't aware that his dental license was pulled, and don't even see how they could do such a thing.
I would hate to be in his shoes though in this particular political climate, with the feds sticking their nose in it.

I have several questions,
If what he supposedly did, why did the govt of Zimbabwe wait until social meter pressured the into filing charges on the ph.
They keep harping on the fact he left the country, well duh ofcourse he did, but did he change his flights and leave the next morning, or did he stay until his hunt was over. Either one I can see, if the landowner told them the next morning he didn't have a permit (that he had probably taken money from the ph to have) do to selling more than was allotted him, never having one but thought he could have gotten one if needed, or any other reason, I could see him makeing a mad dash for the airport.
I would also like to know how far Cecil was originally shot from the game preserve boundaries, doesn't matter if it was 6 inches, a boundary is a boundary, unless they have a buffer zone, but I would like to know.
Also I keep seeing the media and those calling for him to be strung up, that he shot a protected cat, I doubt he was protected because of a university, was he really a protected cat, or just when he was in the park like most every other animal would be?
Lots of unanswered questions, I would like to see the answers too.

[Clay M]

I have not heard about the dental license. I would like to see a link to that one.

[dakotashooter2]

These armchair wildlife managers are also missing another part of the picture..... habitat loss... Wild animals don't recognize boundaries...Private properties around wildlife parks often make up a part of those animals range/habitat. When the money from hunting goes away those private land owners are not going to manage that property for game and potentially could sell it off for mineral interests or some type of commercial or industrial purposes.... destroying and reducing habitat which ultimately will reduce animal numbers. mankind is always going to take precidence over animals and as we squeeze them into less and less habitat their numbers will dwindle. Hunters are one of the few groups that really care about maintaining numbers of animals and habitat and that are willing to pay for it... in exchange all they ask is to occasionally take back a few animals.

[montana_charlie]

They keep harping on the fact he left the country, well duh ofcourse he did, but did he change his flights and leave the next morning, or did he stay until his hunt was over.
I read that he inquired about the possibility of hunting an elephant with a tusk at least 64 pounds (or something).
The landowner told him he had no elephant, so the hunter packed his bags and went home.

He obviously didn't think he was in trouble for anything if he was willing to stay a week longer for the second hunt.

Meanwhile, the common folks in Zimbabwe have a totally different view of this ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?_r=0

[dragon813gt]

Did Jimmy Kimmel choke up because Cecil was murdered or because he confused him with Simba from “The Lion King”?

The author nailed it in one sentence. Anthropomorphism has replaced reality for most in this country. One more urban versus rural divide.


Lions do not kill humans intentionally.

I didn't have time to read all 1257 comments but this one stuck out like a sore thumb. Another idiot who has no idea how the natural world works. You enter a lion's world and you are on the menu. I want to know where these people get these far fetched notions. Oh wait, a lot of them come from Disney. People are to disconnected from the food chain. A lot of Americans place animals above humans. I'm firmly on Team People. PETA calling for the dentist to be hung should be taken to court. It's well over the line when you threaten someone's life.

[starmac]

In the real world there is a griz hanging out around the 300 mile marker on the Dalton (ice road to you tv folks. lol) People have been pulling over and taking pictures of him every day for the last week, and do not intimidate him in the least. He just keeps on eating. Some folks, actually quite a few ride bicycles up this road, I reckon to say they made it, but the day before yesterday a guy on a bike rode by this griz, and the griz started not chargeing, but kind of loping along behind the bike, might have been thinking that this here is the absolute dumbest, funniest looking caribou I have ever seen. lol Anyway, the cyclist was doing some peddling, and an Ak west truck coming south pulled in between them and stopped giving him some time to put some distance between them. Nobody can say what the bear was thinking, he has not bothered anybody on foot yhat has gotten close to take his picture, including some as close as 15 to 20 ft, but apparently the biker didn't want to stop and find out. lol

[Clay M]

I believe an Alaskan Moose hunt would be great.That may be one of my last real hunts I have on the list.
The bucket list. I have a nice Sako Safari grade in .338 win that I bought for that purpose.
I think I would like that one. As far as Africa ,I am not too sure I would really care to go.
My plumber hunts plains game and baboon in Africa.He seem to enjoy it, but unless I could afford to hunt Cape Buffalo,I have no interest.
Right now I am busy helping my family.My wife and daughter have been sick for many years.My son gets married Sunday..
If I never get to hunt again, it is fine with me.
I am a shooter at heart, and I have had a lifetime of fulfillment doing that.
Currently listening to Bill Evans and working with my 95 wins.
Been reading most of Steinbeck's novels. Great writer but I am beginning to tire of him. Will probably read William Faulkner next.
Hemmingway is also great. The Green Hills of Africa is good.
Charles Dickens is my very favorite. What a brilliant man.
Much like listening to Jim Hall play guitar.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bad Water Bill http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=3334128#post3334128) IIRC Kenya forbade big game hunting many years ago in order to protect their big game animals.

Then there was 0 money to pay the folks that were supposed to watch over and protect those animals.

Unfortunately the poachers read the new law as open season on all big game without regard to age or sex so guess what is left in Kenya?[/QUOTE]



Kenya before the hunting ban had an incredible amount of wildlife outside the parks. Wildlife outside the parks in Kenya is now severely limited. When wildlife has value to a landowner it thrives. When it becomes a liability is disappears.
http://www.rexano.org/ConservationPages/Kenya_Frame.htm[/QUOTE]

Exactly the same has happened in South Africa, where hunting is permitted and well regulated, as well as wide areas of the United States and Europe. It is the population increase, and globalization bringing agriculture more and more into the cash economy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have always wanted to hunt the Cape Buffalo.I bought two rifles to do that with back in the late 90's One was a .458 win ,and the other a .416 Rem. Both were Model 70 win safari grade rifles.
I had the money and was going , then 9/11 happened. I decided not to leave the county at that time.


Normally I consider it unreasonably petty to comment on spelling in posts. But not leave the county... It's no good, I can't stop myself.

[Clay M]

Normally I consider it unreasonably petty to comment on spelling in posts. But not leave the county... It's no good, I can't stop myself.

I believe that would be considered a typo..
My bad.

But thanks for pointing that out , you are both a gentleman and a scholar.;)

[mold maker]

What a pile of excrement. There are already laws an poaching. If they can't be enforced, how will another legal entrapment law help.
As long as there is available money, there will be guides ready to accept it. They arrange the hunts, legal or otherwise.
There have always been those who seek the thrill of the hunt, and are willing to pay.
Society changers are always looking to make their ideal utopia the law.
Cecil who??? Who cares????

[dakotashooter2]

Now the big move to stop trophy hunting is on. The other thing that the general public doesn't realize is that 1) a vast majority of trophy animals are the males of the species. Males of the species are generally the least critical to a species existance because one male is able to breed many females. If a male is taken out of circulation those females do not go un-bred as the next available male just moves in and does the job. 2) In most cases to achieve trophy status an animal will have to achieve a certain age. As a result many trophy animals are near the end of their lifespan and taking them a few years before their natural lifespan ends does not make a significant impact on the overall population.

[starmac]

Now the big move to stop trophy hunting is on. The other thing that the general public doesn't realize is that 1) a vast majority of trophy animals are the males of the species. Males of the species are generally the least critical to a species existance because one male is able to breed many females. If a male is taken out of circulation those females do not go un-bred as the next available male just moves in and does the job. 2) In most cases to achieve trophy status an animal will have to achieve a certain age. As a result many trophy animals are near the end of their lifespan and taking them a few years before their natural lifespan ends does not make a significant impact on the overall population.

Can't argue with any of that, except the big move is to stop HUNTING, trophy hunting is just a stepping stone.

[oldscool]

For those of you interested, here is a link about this made up fiasco from someone currently in the camp of the PH involved in this snewz.

Read post #21:
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29148&page=3

[starmac]

If there is any truth to that, it makes way more sense than any of the media, fry the dentist articles I have read. It did at least mention a distance from the park boundary.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If there is any truth to that...

It's on the internet, and it's politics.

The hunter brought $50,000 to the deal, with suggestions of more to come if there had been an elephant, and We have seen it suggested, mistakenly I think, that hunting is worth more to the African nations than non-lethal tourism. But in this case it was a lot, and far more than he would have spent to hunt some plentiful herbivore. Some may have gone to US agents, advertising etc., and we can only guess how much of it fed the village and how much went into the Mercedes and dark glasses fund. But surely most of it came into the Zimbabwean economy.

It is hard to disbelieve that the Zimbabwean government's motive didn't involve the viability of the lion population in the park, which produced legitimate or illegitimate economic benefits. Suppose more hunters did this, with the laws of economics bringing the price down? I still believe there is a possibility that Dr. Palmer was fooled into an illegal act by the professional hunter and farmer so enthusiastically and perhaps truthfully defended on oldscool's link. But any confidence trickster will tell you that you can't fool a man against his will. You have to find something he wants enough to create suspension of disbelief.

[Bad Water Bill]

Ah yes the financial benefits of picture taking tourists.

Met several of that type.

One group I will never forget visited our camp fire on the South Rim and were bragging that they had visited FOUR national parks that DAY starting with IIRC Bryce then ?? then the North Rim and were wrapping up the day with the trip to the South Rim.

Not sure what type of a financial trail they left behind but the carbon print of OVER 400 miles that DAY was definitely there.

Any of the folks here that have hiked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon will never forget the first 1/2 mile of discarded trash littering the landscape as far as you could see.

Yeah shutter (litter) Bugs.

And then there was the German tourist that traveled across the U S visiting countless National Parks and Monuments in the 30 days he was here.

Jumped on a Greyhound Bus in N Y and slept on board it till he hit his first planned stop then back on a bus for sleep and off to the next stop and he traveled that way clicking his camera thru the window of the bus as he traveled all the way to Cali and Wash state where he completed his tour of the U S and boarded a plane back to Germany.

How much did any of the local communities or villagers benefit from the shutter (litter) bugs visit?

[fatelk]

Can't argue with any of that, except the big move is to stop HUNTING, trophy hunting is just a stepping stone.

Absolutely correct. The vast majority of chatter that I've heard on this subject has not really been about the legalities of the particular hunt, but the morality of hunting in general, and the hunting of lions, elephant, giraffe, etc., particularly. Many people who grew up on "The Lion King" et al run on emotion only, and react with moralistic outrage without much logical thought.

I'm not a hunter, and don't much care for trophy hunting myself, but if it's done legally and responsibly I don't see a problem with it.

[montana_charlie]

If there is any truth to that, it makes way more sense than any of the media, fry the dentist articles I have read. It did at least mention a distance from the park boundary.
And, the 'bait' was not dragged behind a truck.

[starmac]

I noticed that too, but thought it best not to point out too much to the ones that think Cecil was a big puddy cat.
This is another internet version, and I have no way of knowing how true it is, but at least it shows a little common sense by the writer.

[4719dave]

Yes my thoughts well ...Just look at the faces when you bring in a rifle case at the air port for ck in ..oh the eyes
This isn't about Africa guys, it is about hunting in general. How long before DELTA does the same thing to trophies taken in Alaska, Canada, Utah, etc, etc.

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC that was nothing more than a media stunt since Delta does not fly to Africa,

[starmac]

I do not fly commercial airlines much, but it will have to be one big emergency for me to give a dime to delta now, wasn't my favorite before.

They may not fly to Africa, but I assume most African flights will have connecting flights in other countries where they change airlines. At least my daughter did when she went on a mission trip to Africa, the name of the last airlines that actually took her into Africa was FREAK AIR of all things. lol

[MtGun44]

Folks that think that wildlife in Africa (or at least in the country of South Africa) can just wander
where ever it wants are pretty uninformed about the realities. The guys that own the land that has
animals on it, if they are bringing in hunters, HAVE HUGE TALL GAMEPROOF FENCES all around their
properties and they are kept up. These guys have valuable animals and they do not want them
wandering off and getting shot elsewhere. Also, the keep a pretty close track of their animals,
and many of them sell off excess animals periodically. An acquiantence who lives in RSA, has
herded his animals up with helicopters to sell off the excess and keep them from destroying
his very dry property by overgrazing. These are sold to guys with hunters and they help replace
some of the hunted animals. These are not small areas. The holdings I hunted on were all
greater than 16,000 acres - like 6 miles by 4 miles roughly for the smallest one.

If the "park" doesn't bother to have fences, they don't value the animals as much as a private
farmer would/does.

Also, even in the USA, if an animal that is protected inside a park wanders outside the boundary,
it is fair game. This is well known in some areas like in VA's Shanendoah Park, literally crawling
with deer, and right next to the boundary is a great place to hunt, if you can get permission.
Ranchers will immediately shoot dead any bison that leaves Yellowstone Park because they carry
disease that will decimate their cattle. It used to be great elk hunting just outside of Yellowstone,
and we were VERY careful to know where the boundary was at all times, but now the wolves have
reduced the herd in that area to below reasonably huntable numbers.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah yes the financial benefits of picture taking tourists.

Met several of that type.

One group I will never forget visited our camp fire on the South Rim and were bragging that they had visited FOUR national parks that DAY starting with IIRC Bryce then ?? then the North Rim and were wrapping up the day with the trip to the South Rim.

Not sure what type of a financial trail they left behind but the carbon print of OVER 400 miles that DAY was definitely there.

Any of the folks here that have hiked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon will never forget the first 1/2 mile of discarded trash littering the landscape as far as you could see.

Yeah shutter (litter) Bugs.

And then there was the German tourist that traveled across the U S visiting countless National Parks and Monuments in the 30 days he was here.

Jumped on a Greyhound Bus in N Y and slept on board it till he hit his first planned stop then back on a bus for sleep and off to the next stop and he traveled that way clicking his camera thru the window of the bus as he traveled all the way to Cali and Wash state where he completed his tour of the U S and boarded a plane back to Germany.

How much did any of the local communities or villagers benefit from the shutter (litter) bugs visit?


Aren't all those places free to enter?

[Bad Water Bill]

Fees & Passes


Entrance Pass for...
Yellowstone National Park
Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks


Private, non-commercial vehicle
$30
$50


Motorcycle
$25
$40


Individuals by foot, bicycle, ski, etc.
$15
$20 per person 16 and older


Non-commercial bus or vehicle with capacity of 16 people or more*
$15
$20 per person 16 and older




Yes they collect money to enter BUT the damage done to the environment and the payroll spent in the cleanup must be hugh.

[kiwi]

"And then there was the German tourist that traveled across the U S visiting countless National Parks and Monuments in the 30 days he was here.

Jumped on a Greyhound Bus in N Y and slept on board it till he hit his first planned stop then back on a bus for sleep and off to the next stop and he traveled that way clicking his camera thru the window of the bus as he traveled all the way to Cali and Wash state where he completed his tour of the U S and boarded a plane back to Germany."
Nothing wrong with that, I did something similar, I flew from New Zealand to LA hopped a Greyhound and went to Florida stopping at several places along the way slept on the bus
some nights stayed overnight at a few, stayed with relatives in Jacksonville a few days then went to NY and caught a flight to England best 15 days holiday ever,
It's better now I can get a direct flight to Houston and miss California all together

[starmac]

LMAO, I glad someone likes greyhound. The only time I decided to ride one I wound up getting off and hitch hiking the rest of the way. lol

[rosewood]

I think the point of the greyhound post was that tourist don't necessarily put much money in an area just because they visit and take pictures.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

My point was that the African camera safari trade is set up to extract quite a bit more money than western US tourism. Those nations take their own decisions on whether to take a moderate amount from many or a large amount from a few. It's their asset.

[Bad Water Bill]

I think the point of the greyhound post was that tourist don't necessarily put much money in an area just because they visit and take pictures.

The greyhound rider was a person that had hiked.skied,and camped with my wife while she had lived in Germany.

He stopped over at her house and we were able to see his LEDGER of every $ and location on the trip.

IIRC his whole trip cost him LESS than a thousand 197? dollars plus air fare.

[montana_charlie]

And, now ... Zimbabwe lifts the ban on trophy hunting.
http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/zimbabwe-lifts-ban-on-big-game-hunting/?cat_orig=world

[rosewood]

And, now ... Zimbabwe lifts the ban on trophy hunting.
http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/zimbabwe-lifts-ban-on-big-game-hunting/?cat_orig=world

Amazing how quick money talks. Must have had a ton of cancelled hunts and the guides were raising a stink.

[Bad Water Bill]

Not just the guides but how about the corporations that provide the guides and the trackers + all of the villages that no longer will be able to enjoy the meat from the animals that were shot.

Lots and lots of LOCAL folks depend on big game hunting and the money it adds to the local economy.

A friend that was hunting there last year said he knew of at least 2 Illinois residents that WERE going to hunt lions there but after this have cancelled their hunts.

[starmac]

One thing in the article that got my attention is the Zimbabwe govt, has lifted the ban, but has now decided to ban the use of bows, unless you get special permission. I think that is funny as several of the articles that have already found the guilty claimed a bow was illegal. hmmmm
Seems like the Zimbabwe govt is trying to please everyone, but figured out real quick that the bleeding hearts cents were not going to feed much of the country.

What I think about hunting there carries no weight, because I have never even given it a thought, but I think if they go ahead and prosecute this guy, it will hurt the hunting business in their country big time over the long haul.

[oldscool]

Since Cecils 15 minutes are over..


I had a dream that Kaitlyn the kross dressing kudu gets killed parading around a watering hole.
:violin:

The sheepy pc 'Social' media could really have a hissy with that.:evil::popcorn:

[rosewood]

Since Cecils 15 minutes are over..


I had a dream that Kaitlyn the kross dressing kudu gets killed parading around a watering hole.
:violin:

The sheepy pc 'Social' media could really have a hissy with that.:evil::popcorn:

By a large male lion roaming outside the park??