How fast can you push a .458 cast bullet?

[AbitNutz]

I'm rechambering my Lyman 1878 (Pedersoli Sharps 1877 copy) from 45-70 to 450 Nitro-Express. I didn't consider the 45-100, 110, 120, etc because I love British big game cartridges and always wanted a 450NE. Both the 45-70 and 450NE are .458.

The Lyman has a forged receiver and a cut rifled barrel and I think is one of the best looking rifles I have. The quality and workmanship surprised me as I didn't think an Italian clone was this good. Making this a 450NE just adds to the exotic appeal to for me.

Ammunition, Brass and dies are readily available, if not the least expensive in the world. Chamber reamers can also be had with no problem. My gunsmith is on board with this and I'll be dropping it off in a couple of weeks.

I opened a ticket with Lyman and they told me to use the 45-70 loading data for the lever action Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886. The max pressure for those are 43,000 cup. The 450NE's is at 39,000 cup. So all things are good for handling the extra boom.

I am a little concerned about the stock holding up and I'm likely to do a really good bedding job to help it out as much as I can. Maybe an Acraglas with atomized aluminum (aluminum powder) mix.

Anyway, back to velocity. How fast can I push a cast .458 cast bullet? As I said, the barrel is cut rifled and is slick as snot. It never leads up on me and is crazy accurate.

[Cowboy_Dan]

My hypothesis is thst if you do things just right, you can get j-word velocity with accuracy and no leading. I haven't gone for HV with cast in rifles yet, but I understand that larger bores are more forgiving. Good luck, and I am jealous of the N.E. rifle, I have wanted one of those in a SxS for a long time.

[Tatume]

You can run cast bullets at speeds that your shoulder will not appreciate. My hunting loads make 2250 fps.

[leftiye]

What he said, it ain't how much you can accelerate the boolit, it's how much acceleration you can stand. Sanity makes a difference.

[AbitNutz]

I'm mostly sane...but not completely. I love to shoot big bore rifles. I have a Ruger No1 in 450/400 Nitro Express that I love to pound me. Yes, after a 5 or so rounds I do flee to the relative comfort of a sissy pad my wife made for me but I'll shoot as many rounds as I have with me.

I have an RCBS mold in .458 that is a flat nose 300gr gas check that I may have a go with. The standard factory load is a 480gr at 2200fps. However that is in a 24" barrel. I'm really curious to blow one over my chronograph from the Lyman's 30" barrel and see what the chrono reads.

One weird thing I have noticed is that most sources, including Hornday, list the rim thickness of the 45-70 as .070 and the 450NE at .040 but the boxes of Hornady 450NE and 45-70 that I have both measure out to the same, .061. I wrote them to see what's up. I understand that a difference in rim thickness may right that the barrel be set back a thread or so.

[oldred]

The Lyman has a forged receiver.


That's not exactly correct, the shape of these receivers is too complex for a forging thus they are made two different ways, strong steel castings (not to be confused with weaker iron castings) and CNC machined from alloy steel stock. Either method is just fine and quite strong but I think the Lyman is machined from steel stock, either method is more expensive than forging (for large production runs anyway) and every bit as strong so it does not matter in the least.

[flint45]

I have got up to 2150 fps in a marlin micro groove with 300gc good acc. no leading. Also in a shilo sharps .45-70 2225 with 300 gr. and 2023fps with a 378gr. kramer boolit with a gas check.

[AbitNutz]

Now were talkin'!

[MT Chambers]

Well, I'll be the contrarian, that action was designed in the 1860s, most feel that BP pressures are the best way to go, I would not load that action to .450 Nitro Express levels, a Ruger #1, yes!

[seaboltm]

In my Marlin 1895 I have loaded to a bit over 1800 fps with the Lee 405 grain boolit. Recoil was brisk, to say the least. My regular load is cruising at 1500 fps. I can handle the recoil, that is much hotter than the old black powder loads, and I confident it would put the end to just about everything on the planet.

[bhn22]

There's no physical limit to any object maximum velocity, except the ones imposed by the propulsion methods, or those imposed by performance parameters.

[Duckiller]

To answer your original question, if it is heavy probably a lot faster than your shoulder wants it to go.

[AbitNutz]

MT Chambers...you may be a contrarian on other things but not about this one. I agree with you a 100% and so does Lyman. They told me specifically that loading to the 43,000 CUP max for the Marlin 1895 and the Winchester 1886 in 45-70 was all good but to never use the loading data for the Ruger No.1 or Siamese Mauser. They said that in bold and caps. They flat stated that the action was not strong enough to handle that kind of pressure. There was no wishy washy or ambiguity about their statement. I was expecting a response like, "only use factory ammo" but nope. They flat said...Lever action 45-70 data good. Ruger data BAD!

So the 450 NE is actually a bit below the 45-70 lever action data so...we're good :) and I'm happy.

[dh2]

I can push a .287 boolit 2400fps in a 7mm Mauser with no leading. I see no reason why (as long as my shoulder can take it) I am working with my .458 Win. Mag. and a .459 inch 535gr slug I am thinking 2400fps may be a pit much, on me but I believe it will not take near that speed to hurt some thing on the other end.

[AbitNutz]

What's that old joke? One end kills, the other end cripples.

[stubert]

I was pushing a 500 grain cast with gas check out of a Ruger # 1 in 458 Lott. I got up to 2206 fps with no leading. Only problem I had was flinching.

[popper]

Only problem I had was flinching. Only flinching? 12 ga. slugs make me SORE.

[stubert]

Flinching and black and blue brusies. Could only shoot 2 shots before I started to flinch. Sold the gun. There aren't many elephants here in New York.

[Pilgrim]

Folks have hinted at it but the velocity question is pretty easy to answer...1) If the rifle is mounted on wheels you can most likely have the flatest shooting .450 NE in history, 2) If you have to hold it, the velocity limit will be most likely beyond your physical ability to tolerate it. There was a good reason the old NE's were in the 12# - 13# range for the lighter rifles, the "heavy" cartridges were up to 20 + #. Oh yeah, the .450 NE is/was not considered a heavy.

[wmitty]

stubert

I saw a fella down here with your Lott... he was using it to hunt armadillos.:bigsmyl2:

[leftiye]

So then it would kill the 'Dillo even if it bounced off? Or maybe, so then the 'Dillo did the bouncing off. (There was a thread here recently about a guy getting hit in the head with a bullet that bounced off of an armadillo).

[AbitNutz]

I'm looking at an LBT 350-400gr spitzer, gas check. I'm thinking that would have a really good BC... for a lead bullet. I know a 450 NE could push that down a 30 inch barrel faster than the bullet could stand. I just wonder where that limit is. 2000fps? 2300fps?

[Sagebrush7]

I hotrodded a Ruger M77 458 Win that would shoot clover leafs with a 500 grain cast. After many headaches and a nose bleed at the range one day I sold it! Also found out all the Trex had died!

[AbitNutz]

It's still fun to go to the range and crack off a few rounds of my Ruger No.1 450-400 Nitro Express. Usually, someone is next to me with an AR/AK something. Trex maybe be dead but not forgotten. I love big bore's. Next time they hold that safari rifle shoot, I may attend.

[rosewood]

I wonder that since you are using a 30" barrel, if you could go with a much slower powder than what is normally listed for the 450NE. It might get you the desired velocities at a lower pressure. I would think if you go with a gas check boolit, you could easily push over 2k without any boolit issues.

[montana_charlie]

I don't see the difference between the 450 Nitro Express cartridge and the .45/120.

Both hold a .458 bullet.
Both are rimmed, straight taper cases.
And, both are 3.25 inches long.

There is no established SAAMI spec (to look at) for either chamber, so how do they differ?

CM


BTW:
Pedersoli literature states their receivers (for several rifles, including the Sharps) are forged.

[AbitNutz]

I don't think there is much difference in ballistics between the 450 NE and the 45-120. The 450NE is a little wider at the base being .550 compared to .500 for the 45-120. Beyond that, there pretty much the same. I just happen to prefer the 450 NE. It was never a factor of one versus the other, since they're almost the same. I just like British dangerous game cartridges. I just thought it a bit more exotic. Brass and dies seem to be equally available. The 450 NE has been loaded mostly with smokeless powder while the 45-120 was principally a black powder round.

[montana_charlie]

My question was aimed at determining the difference in the chambers ... not performance or ballistic variations.
In other words, how much, and from where, does metal need to be removed to turn a 45/XX chamber into 450 Nitro Express?
I believe that has been adequately answered.

[MikeS]

That's not exactly correct, the shape of these receivers is too complex for a forging thus they are made two different ways, strong steel castings (not to be confused with weaker iron castings) and CNC machined from alloy steel stock. Either method is just fine and quite strong but I think the Lyman is machined from steel stock, either method is more expensive than forging (for large production runs anyway) and every bit as strong so it does not matter in the least.

I would love to know where you get your info from? I have yet to ever hear of a shape being too complex to be made from a forging. I used to be in the machinery business and we used lots of drop forgings. When we lost our supplier of forgings, only then did we go to steel castings for some of our parts, which we made with investment castings (lost wax casting) that made a raw casting that was much closer to what the finished part was like than the original forgings were like. They could be using square blocks that are forgings, then machine the action out of them the same way they would machine it from a block of steel, there's no rule that a forging has to follow every exterior shape of a part being made, if it's a complex shape as the Sharps receivers are, then the forging could be made much more blocky. Depending on the grade of steel they start with, if it's a drop forged block of that steel rather than bar stock of the same grade steel, the forging is going to be much stronger.