How do you think about Longshot powder for 30-06 reduced load?

[tomo]

I am going to make 30-06 reduced loads with cast boolits.
SR4759 is one of most popular powder for this purpose.
But as all you know, it is discontinued product.
In Japan, there are much less option about powder.

Anyway, I have Hodgdon Longshot for shotshells.

Do you have any recipe of 30-06 reduced loads with this powder, Longshot?
If none recommend with it, I should have IMR4227 instead?

[Blackwater]

Welcome to the board! Good to have someone from Japan here. You have a beautiful land there. I'd love to go back one day.

As to Longshot in an '06, I've never tried it, but I don't see why it couldn't do well. I just got some for loading mostly 20 ga. and some 12 ga. loads, and am not really familiar with how well it ignites and burns, but it's designed as a shotshell powder, so it's designed to work at fairly low pressure levels, relative to most rifle and many pistol rounds. How powders ignite (whether easily or not) may determine what primer will give you best accuracy with any given powder and load and bullet combination. Then all you need to know is how much of it to use.

I just checked my Lyman Cast Bullet manual, which you should get a copy of by the way if at all possible, and the two faster and slower powders which Longshot lies between in burning rate, are Unique, which is significantly faster burning and therefore you'd use less than for Longshot, and 2400, which is significantly slower, and would be useful at larger charge weights than Longshot. With Unique, the minimum charges listed for 150 gr. bullet is 17 gr., and with the heavier 210 gr. bullets the minimum listed is 11.5 gr. With 2400, they list a minimum charge of 18.5 gr. with the 170 gr. bullet and 15 gr. with the 200 gr. bullet. Since Longshot lies somewhere near the middle of these two powders, I'd estimate that your minimum load with 150 gr. cast bullets should be somewhere in the area of 18-19 gr. with your Longshot powder, or about 14-15 gr. with 170 gr. cast bullets, or about 13-14 gr. with 200-210 gr. cast bullets. Maximum loads are harder to guess at, but I'll give you an estimation of something like 23-24 gr. with th e150's, and somewhere near 17 gr. with 170's, and in the area of 18-19 gr. with the 200-210 gr. bullets. That's just an estimate, but should be somewhere fairly close.

Start with the minimums, and be sure to take a tape wrapped rod with you that you can use to drive a bullet out if I'm wrong, and the bullet gets stuck in the barrel, making you have to drive it out. The metal rod will give you the strength to drive it out and the tape wrap will prevent you from damaging the rifling of your barrel. I doubt that'll happen, though, but strange things DO happen, albeit rarely, when loading cast and reduced charges of faster burning powders. That it COULD possibly, is why I make the recommendation of the steel driving rod.

As to maximums, that is harder to estimate, and my citations above should NOT be taken as really good data, but only as an estimate. They should be worked up to in small increments, which really is a good thing, since only incremental loadings will tell you what will be your most accurate load. Lighter loads CAN be very effective, out of all proportion to their relative strength sometimes, especially if they have a flat point. Accuracy can be best anywhere from the minimum to the maximum loadings. Also with regard to maximums, if you don't know how to "read" pressure by looking at your primers, you really need to learn how that works. In the absence of a pressure gun to give you more concrete data, reading primers and getting speeds from a the chronograph are the best you can do in deciding what will be your maximums with any given powder, Longshot or whatever else you may wind up using in time. If you'll observe the corners of your fired primers, if they're strongly rounded on the edges, then that is an indication that pressures are low. if they're flat, but still have slightly rounded edges, then that is max to near max in your loading with that particular bullet. If they're flattened out, with sharp edges, then you know you're over maximum, and you need to pull the rest of those loads and recast them. Don't shoot them out. Bad things can happen if you shoot overly "hot" loads, like blowing up a gun, and maybe even harming yourself or bystanders!

This hobby of ours of shooting cast bullets is fun, but CAN be, like so many other human endeavors, dangerous IF proper understanding isn't made the basis of our actions. You're lucky. If you read and study the archives, and use the search feature to explore any subject that interests or puzzles you, you can learn more here than any of us old timers at casting ever had when we started out. Just let caution and knowledge be your guide, and you'll have a wonderful time, and learn all sorts of interesting things, and develop your abilities to think and reason and solve problems that arise in all areas related to casting, loading, lubes and internal and external ballistics, and other areas, and the more you know about science, math and logic, the better you'll do and the faster you'll progress.

I give you the above advice because I sense you're rather new at this hobby, and I hope it helps you in getting into it safely and happily. If you're more experienced than I have sensed, then please disregard it, and accept my apology. It's good to know there are folks in Japan who are shooting cast bullets, and are similarly intrigued by it as we are over here. Hope this helps???

[Misskimo]

Wow. Well said Blackwater. Now that's dedication to our hobby and the willingness to pass it down ,[smilie=w:

[Blackwater]

That's how I got it - from some old timers who took a little time out to help a young kid with a lot of "want to" and little "know how." I figure we all owe whoever we learned from more than we'll ever be able to repay. I know I surely do!

[tomo]

Hello Blackwater,
Yes. I am a newbie to rifle reloading, especially to casting bullets. And Thank you so much for your great advice.
In Japan, there are a lot of (but much less than the US, of course) slug casters, but are few rifle casters here.
That's why I can not have any information about that in Japan. I am very lucky because I could join here and have good advices from you all.
I will make other post when I try.
Thanks

[Moonie]

I know it is very difficult to get approval for firearm ownership in Japan. Congratulations on that, we will be happy to help you with your endeavor as much as we can. Do you know what powders are available to you there? There are some powders that are better suited to reduced loads in rifles than others. H4895, Unique and 2400 are some that I've worked with in 30-06 at reduced loads.

[Blackwater]

Tomo, there are many people here with excellent info, and much more than I have. All I gave you was simply the basics. Many here have more in depth knowledge of various aspects than I do, and I learn from them frequently. You did very well in finding this site because it's without doubt the very best site on the 'net to get really good info. As you have time, use the search feature to find answers to your questions that arise as you go along, and it'll shorten your learning curve considerably. The key is to take things one step at a time after you've got the basics down, and continue to refine your loads and techniques and bullet, powder and primer choices. It's amazing to most people what can really be done with cast bullets, and the guys here all have things to contribute. I learn here constantly, and I've been reloading for over 50 years now! Good luck, and keep us posted with the results you're getting. There's so much info available here that it's just about impossible to come up with a scenario that someone (usually more) hasn't faced and overcome. Again, good luck, and stay careful and very deliberate with your learning period.

[tomo]

Moonie, Thanks for the comment. They may be available, IMR4895, H4895, IMR4227, and Trail Boss as relatively faster powder.
The reason why I hope use Longshot for 30-06 reduced load is my powder safe. We must have gun storage and powder safe separately by law.
And stored guns must be partially disassembled. For example, forend of shotguns, bolt of rifles should be separated. And they must be stored other safe than gun storage.
I store my all shotshells, powder bottles, primers, bullets and gun parts described above in a small safe. So only a few kinds of powder can be stored there. One space occupied
by Longshot. This is main powder for hunting shotshells so far. And DC-300, Japanese powder and it's similar to IMR-3031, is for my 30-06 and 308Win full speed light loads.
And I am going to try Varget for heavier hunting load. My safe is full now. I must shot a lot to consume one bottle before I buy other powder. I did try to use DC-300 for reduced load but found that less than 27gr yields tar-like stain. I guess it is less than minimum and faster powder is needed. That's why I hope to use Longshot for reduced load.
I apologize that my composition became longer than its point due to a lack of my English skill.

[tomo]

Blackwater, thank you for being on my side.
I have been shotshell/slug reloading for a decade but totally new to casting rifle bullets.
I am enjoying to learn about it. Thanks again.

[retread]

Tomo, You are getting good advice here so I will not add anything at this time but wanted to bid you welcome to the site.

[tomo]

retread, thank you for welcoming me. I am glad to get into this world.

[Blackwater]

Tomo, your English skills are more than adequate and you use the skills you have rather adeptly, actually. No need to apologize at all, and again, welcome to a great bunch of very knowledgeable guys here. The more you learn, the more questions you'll have, but that's always the way it is with anything we pursue to any depth at all. When you get frustrated at some point, be glad. That usually means you're about to learn something good.

[Chris24]

Nice to meet you, Tomo. I like your avatar. I'm a big fan of vacuum tubes and related gear. My reloading room has a big tube amp on one side.

I've only ever used Longshot for 357 Sig; it's pretty hot. I prefer Unique for reduced cast rifle loads. I use about 12 grains for a 150 grain boolit in 7.62x54R. It goes about 1500 FPS out of a 20" barrel. A .30-06 would need a good bit more. I've heard 2400 and Trail Boss are good also.

[tomo]

Hello Chris24,

This avatar is chosen since amateur radio is one of my biggest hobbies.
I thought someone here realizes what this is and give some comments to me in near future.
But it takes only a couple of days before you notice. ha ha
the 6146B is my favorite tube and used for final stage of various 100W class transmitter as you might know.

Unique may not be available here but I can try Trail Boss.
If I can not find proper load with Longshot, I will try other choices after that.

[Blackwater]

Tomo and Chris 24, it seems great minds think alike! I have nearly a dozen old tube guitar amps and my only stereo unit is an old Viet Nam era Sansui all tube amp that I wouldn't trade for love nor money. With an old set of large speakers with 15" woofer, 6" mid and 3" tweeter, all cheap paper cone speakers, it has that thick, rich "juke box" sound that us old timers grew up with. It's syrupy thick, rich, harmonic and just generally VERY musical, unlike the much harsher solid state stuff that's on the market these days. It's taken down now, and put away, but whatever you play through it just comes out magically thick, rich and harmonic. Amazing what those vacuum tubes can do, ain't it?

[jabo52521]

This avatar is chosen since amateur radio is one of my biggest hobbies.
Tomo, welcome from Texas. What band are you on?

[tomo]

I was born in almost the end of era of vacuum tubes. When I got a ham license, FT-102, was one of the last model which adopted tubes for a final stage, was sold in ham shops.
I might be your kids' age. Because my father loved tube amps and made some. But I know vacuum tubes are doing great as linear amps for hams even it's silicon age.

hello jabo52521, I have all bands except 160m and WARC bands but my signals must be very weak because my home is in midtown Tokyo and surrounded by higher buildings.
Do you know Akihabara, the largest electric town? Sometimes, I went there to get some electric components and gun related stuff! There are several gun shops in the area.

[sawzall]

Hey tomo, another "welcome to the forum!" Trail Boss is a great powder for reduced loads. I've used 15 grains with the Lee 150gr RF without a gas check in my 30-06 with success. runs about 1200fps out of my 22" barrel tumble lubed with Recluse lube (45-45-10) with 2.5" groups off the hood of my truck at 100 meters with no leading.

[tomo]

Thanks you, sawzall. What great shots they are with Trail Boss! I will have one when it becomes available here.

[hutch18414]

Tomo, I find it interesting that so many hams are into casting and shooting. I am an amateur extra, been playing with tubes for years. Had a 101E at one time. Welcome to the site. I have worked Japan with PSK31.

[Magana559]

Another +1 for trailboss on reduced loads. Very light and takes up a lot of case space. Welcome to the casting addiction!

[tomo]

Hello, hutch18414
I'd lived in New York over a decade ago and got extra too.
Casting bullets might have something in common with ham.
I don't make any guns. Of course it is prohibited strictly here.
But only ways to make something about shooting and hunting are
casting and then reloading, I think. That might be why I love these.

[tomo]

I got it, Magana559. Trail Boss is on my first line of next purchase.

I might be able to keep up to three bottles of powder at a time because there are space limit in my safe box.
They will be Longshot, Varget and Trail Boss for shotshells, full-speed bullets and reduced loads respectively.
I have a 30-06 bolt action rifle with 20" barrel. How do you think?

[tomo]

I made 30-06 reduced loads with Hodgdon Longshot finally.

According to great advice from Blackwater (comment #2), I loaded 15 to 17 grain Longshot and 170 grain cast boolits.
I forget to bring my chronograph to shooting range and have no velocity data. But they are great shots and fun.

Muzzle smokes like shotgun even much less than black powder. This is only one difference I noticed.

Thank you.

[Blackwater]

That's good to hear, but remember, I was just guessing at that charge. Do you know how to look at the primers and recognize the signs of what kind of pressure you're getting? If not, pay very close attention to them. They only indicate very roughly at what level of pressure you're getting, and many advise against using them to "interpret" pressures, and that's with some degree of validity, but generally, it CAN keep you out of trouble.

Generally, when your primer indentation and its outer edges are nice and rounded after firing, that means pressure is pretty moderate. Black soot on the case necks, and even sometimes on the bodies of the cases means there wasn't enough pressure to expand the case out enough against the chamber to seal it off, and some of the gasses escaped around the ctg. case, instead of down the bore. Solution in that last case is to add a bit more powder so it'll seal off at the chamber.

When the primers are flattened out, but still have a slight rounding at he very edge, and the primer indentation is sharp and distinct, you're pretty well at maximum charge. When the primer is flattend out, and there's not even a slight rounded edge, you're over maximum and need to cut back, and NOT shoot any more of those loads. You can pull the bullets and dump the powder on those, and reaload. Shooting very many overloads in a gun WILL damage it. Modern guns are often VERY strong, especially bolt actions, and can take a lot more than the softer/weaker brass cases can or will, but even so, over time, the extreme pressure will compress the metal, possibly weakening it or making it susceptible to cracking, etc., so that's why we're always well advised to start toward the lower end of the spectrum and work upwards toward the maximum. Anyone who's reloaded for a long time can probably attest to the fact that sooner or later, you'll likely find some loads listed that in your specific gun, MAY well prove to provide more pressure than the test gun did.

The reasons for that are many. Some bullets have thicker, harder jackets and harder lead cores than some others. Some have longer shanks of full diameter and thus, hit the tapered part of the chamber throat sooner, and this can increase maximum pressure. Some chambers and especially the neck areas, can be tighter than some others. This is because they use chambering reamers to chamber a number of barrels, and resharpen them to do even more. When they resharpen, they can sometimes bore a tighter chamber, for instance. Many variables are at work here in reloading, and you would be well advised to read up on these things as much as you can and as often as you can. Starting low, and watching your primers for the signs they can give you of the general area of pressure you're working in should keep you from any problems.

It's really good to see someone in Japan reloading, casting and shooting. We here take it far too much for granted, but there are many enemies of shooting here, and they never rest, and never will until they take all guns and ammo away from us. You are a very good and intelligent man to be doing this in Japan, and doing it so well. I salute you, sir! You've earned it!

[tomo]

At first, thank you for additional great information.

I carefully inspected every case soon after each shot. And there were not any pressure signs on primers and cases when they were shot.
I think it is possible to charge much more until pressure sign occurs. But I won't do that now because Longshot is denser than other rifle powder
and there are much air space in the case. And my aim is not using Longshot for full speed but for reduced low velocity load.

I am very thankful to you and people in the forum for your kindness and great advice.

[Blackwater]

Well heck, Tomo, we're the ones who ought to be thanking YOU for what you're doing under such restricting circumstances! It's US who should learn from your circumstances, and appreciate what we still have left now in this country.

And as to the data, I was a little on the conservative side, simply because I was left with just having to guess at the amount of powder to use. Can't very well morally try to give out possibly dangerous info when you're just guessing, so you ought to be able to work upward in powder charge until you get relatively flat primers, but be very careful to go slow and watch those primers. In the absence of good data, that's really the only indication we have to keep us safe.

Again, please let me express my appreciation, and that of most of us here, at seeing someone doing what you're doing where it's much more difficult, and takes much more effort to achieve than it is over here. You're a good man doing a good thing under more difficult conditions than we currently have here. With all that's going on over here, we may well not have that benefit all that much longer! We ought to appreciate what we have now MUCH more than many of us do today, and it's really good and refreshing to see someone like you doing this under more difficult circumstances and requirements. Thank YOU for setting an excellent example for many of us over here!