35 Rem Alloy

[high standard 40]

OK, I had trouble deciding which area of the forum to start this thread. Seems like it could qualify under "alloys" or "CB Loads" but I'll try here.


I have a T/C Contender 18" carbine that I use to hunt whitetail deer. I used it to take a 100 pound doe last year and was less than excited about terminal ballistics. My load consisted of a bullet cast with the RCBS 200 gr mold, alloy was half COWW and half pure lead with about 4% by weight 50/50 solder added to help with mold fillout. These were air cooled. With gaschecks and Felix lube, ready to load, they weigh 210 grains. My load develops about 1850 fps. The shot was taken at a distance of about 40 yards, the deer was full broadside and the shot placement was just behind the shoulder giving full penetration through both lungs. I was situated in an elevated stand so there was a downward path of the bullet through the deer. At the shot she ran as though she was not hit. I found where the bullet entered the ground just beyond where she had been standing, along with some blood and brown hair. After about 125 yards of tracking a sometimes very faint blood trail, I recovered the deer. The exit wound in the hide was only about 1/2" in diameter. I had expected a much better wound channel and an easier tracking job with this combination. I went back the next day and recovered the bullet which had burrowed into the sandy soil about 9" after passing through the deer. It had expanded to only about .400" after passing through the deer and the 9" of soil. I had tested the BH of that bullet as about 10 BH. I can't understand why performance wasn't better. I know that "hey I got the deer" but my tracking ability is waning along with my eyes. Hands and knees after dark with a flashlight can get tough.

So, long story short, with this bullet and cartridge, I either have to increase velocity or soften the bullet to get better expansion. How soft of an alloy can I go with. I've got some test bullets cast out of an alloy of 7 BH. Am I expecting too much of a bullet that soft at 1800 fps? So far, with the 10 BH of the previous load, I had zero fouling. Bullet fit for my chamber is very good. I did a pound-cast and I've got them fit as perfect as I can get them and accuracy was about 1.25" for 5 shots at 100 yards.

Any Ideas?

[Hickory]

I can't say that I'd do anything different, except, either use a softer alloy or maybe try a cupped or shallow hollow point.
The shot you described, seems typical for a lung shot and the distance the deer traveled.
On a broadside shot at ground level, I try to break down the shoulders with the first shot and if a second shot is needed, that one goes in the neck.

[RU shooter]

The last deer I killed was with a very similar set up as yours 18" barrel rem 600 in 35 rem . Bullet was close it was a saeco 200 gr. 50/50 WW and soft air cooled at similar speed. My deer a old big bodied 8 pt did the same thing double lung hit right behind the shoulders broadside at 40-50 yd. took off like a rocket after the shot found a little hair and blood at Impact site . Found dead about 100 yds Down over the hill ( they always run down the darn hill) not a lot of blood along the way either but that deer ran till he was outa air usually about 7-10 seconds . Imo the bullet did the job well the lungs were jello and not a lot of blood shot damage on the ribs . Even with jacketed bullets I've had deer hit like that run the death dash. I wouldn't change the bullet speed or alloy just hit them in the shoulders if you don't want to have to go after them . Me I don't like to waste the meat so I shoot for the lungs .

Tim

[high standard 40]

Thanks for the replies.

RU shooter. Your comment about shot placement mirrors my efforts as well. I've had a lot of deer over the years shot through both shoulders and the result was the loss of most of the front half of the deer. I'm trying to make adjustments to achieve a larger exit wound which should help with the blood trail. I'll try to range test the softer alloy and see what the results are.

[TXGunNut]

I think you did everything right but the lung shot is a bit risky. Sometimes a lung-shot deer decides he (or she) isn't dead yet and runs until it can't run any more. Quite often a lung shot causes us to practice our tracking skills. A heart shot often dispels these notions but a CNS shot is the only one that eliminates them altogether.

[Idaho Mule]

high standard 40, This is a very interesting topic and I am looking forward to reading responses from more experienced members. I am to the point where I don't enjoy tracking stuff either. I have lots of experience killing with jacketed stuff but not much in this cast game. A quality jacketed bullet (lets just say Sierra GK) zipping thru a 150 lb. white-tail deer's front section (as in ahead of the abdomen) is going to just suck a lot of heart, lung material as well as any bone it hits out the far side of the deer and spray the stuff all over, I know this. The cast however, does just as you say, nice neat hole thru and thru but they can run to far that way. As a meat hunter myself I find it hard to aim for bone but I think if I want to track less I am going to have to do just that and aim for the point of the shoulder to break them down. Personally, I think if I have to look for softer alloy, hp, or what ever, I will most likely read a few more of Larry Gibson's reports on hp'ing. JW

[TXGunNut]

Go ahead and break them down, Idaho Mule. The meat a CB "wastes" wouldn't comprise a decent slider burger. IME a lung shot may allow a TX whitetail to cover a lot of ground in the S TX brush. I'll waste a mouthful of meat for a short tracking job or quite often a DRT.

[jhalcott]

I've had/seen deer run from "perfect" shots from a lot of caliber /guns. I like a nice 65+% flat nose on my boolits . A hollow or cup nose works quite well also. I always test penetration/expansion in wetpack before hunting with any bullet cast or jacketed. A small doe only has about 8 to 10 inches of material to make a bullet work. MY alloy is 70 % WW and 30% pure, with less than 2% tin solder, IF IT NEEDS IT. Many times I just use WW alloy that has a BHN of 12 in this area. I have also used pure lead noses with wheel weight bodies for hunting. Labor intensive to make but you only NEED a few for deer season. Practice with ACWW alloy for off season.

[high standard 40]

I agree that a small doe does not offer a lot of material to expand on. But the bullet also plowed 9" into the ground and still only expanded to .400".

[leftiye]

Might answer goodsteel's question about why to make hollowpoints. I suspect the terminal performance of this instance is very representative of much cast boolits performance.

[TCLouis]

One thing I will suggest is save some of that tin.

[high standard 40]

One thing I will suggest is save some of that tin.

I'm in pretty good shape on this front. I have about 250 pounds of 50/50 solder and a source for more. I don't fear running out anytime soon.

[dubber123]

Kinda good to read this. I am shooting the RCBS clone NOE made, out of the same air cooled 50/50 alloy. I was on the fence whether the HP version I am currently loading would be too much of a good thing expansion wise, but I feel better about my choice now. My speed is about 2,150 from my Marlin, so I should get a little more violent reaction than the solid version.

[Duckiller]

I believe TC was suggesting that less tin would give you a softer boolit. Last November I also shot a doe. She ran away like she wasn't hit. 40 yds from a tree stand couldn't believe I had missed. After running for 100+/- yards she fell over dead. Very little blood trail. Fortunately she ran through an open field. Shot her with 150gr Nosler partition from a .270. Dressing her out her chest cavity was full of blood. The shot had hit her lungs, part of her heart and the off leg near the knee. She was running too fast for me to even consider a second shot and all I could do was mutter that I couldn't believe that I missed. This was with a gun I borrowed from my brother. He said he had similar results with deer he had shot. Deer he had shot with a 257 Roberts seemed to drop dead in there tracks. The running is a result of how we had hit our deer.

[white eagle]

as noted you may want to try a shallow cup point or hp
Larry Gibson has some good advice on them
might be you may also want to slow your boolit down
check your alloy in wet pack for expansion
I have had very similar results on deer with my 358 win without hp or cp

[Larry Gibson]

Let me suggest this; add 2% tin to your COWWs. This gives a much better balance of tin to antimony and forms the sub metal SbSn in a good proportion to mix into and stay in solution with the lead. This provides the "hardness to the alloy, allows for excellent casting and provides better malleability to the alloy. The mix that alloy with lead at (alloy/lead) 50/50, 40/60 and 30/70. Cast at least 10 of the RCBS bullets of each alloy mix and then load them with the same load you are using. Test them for accuracy at the maximum range you personally will shoot a deer. I clean the barrel every 7 - 8 shots with such softer alloys to maintain the best accuracy. Select the softest alloy for use which gives consistent hits in the heart/lung area at your maximum distance. For hunting the alloy selected may not give the best accuracy but needs to give sufficient accuracy for correct placement of the shot at that max expected range.

When you've selected the best alloy then you might consider HPing the bullet. I use the Forster 1/8" HP tool to HP my 35-200-FNs 3/16" deep for excellent performance on game to 200 yards. However I push them to 2150 fps (26" barrel) and use a velocity level of 1400 - 1600 fps as minimal terminal impact velocity for any expectation of reasonable expansion with the alloy I use (COWWs + 2% tin mixed 50/50 with lead). With this alloy and that HP depth expansion is sufficient w/o the bullet shedding any expansion petals. Penetration is quite sufficient as I've yet to recover a bullet as all have been "through and through".

I long ago had the same problems with the classic "behind the shoulder" shots on deer; they many times just were able to travel too far before going down. After losing a couple deer I learned, especially with smaller caliber (35 caliber and under) it is better to damage a bit more meat than to lose the entire deer. I no longer use the "behind the shoulder" shot but envision a soccer ball or large cantaloupe low against the brisket between the legs. Regardless of the angle of the shot I put the bullet through that soccer ball. That results in a quick death with the deer staggering not more than a few short yards, if any, before going down. Usually on most broadside and raking shots this results in at least one of the shoulders being "broken" down also. Yes a bit more meat is damaged with that shot but with such lower velocity cast bullet loads you can, as Keith stated, "eat right up to the hole". Not always but most often. Most photo's of skinned deer show a lot more damage to meat that is actually there. As mentioned you might give consideration to changing your choice of bullet placement along with the use of a more effective alloy. Bottom line is if you are shooting a deer in the heart/lung area to kill it quickly you are going to damage meat.

The photo's show the 35-200-FPs loaded and HP'd in my 35 Rems. Also the deer was shot right about 90 paces away and just started stepping forward as I shot. On taking the shot the deer staggered toward me about 20 yards and went down and was dead before I could walk up to him. Note the outside entry wound just at the back edge of the front leg, pretty much a "behind the shoulder" shot and the damage through the lungs was "terminal" to say the least. The damage looks severe but that's just blood shot "blow" and it cleaned off easily with very little loss of meat. The entry and exit inside the rib cage shows excellent bullet performance. There was little damage on the outside at the exit.

Larry Gibson

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[Blammer]

I'd either add a small hollow point, or aim for bone.

Shoulder shot with the heart in the middle you can't go wrong and usually tracking jobs are shorter.

[high standard 40]

Thanks for the advice Larry. The alloy you suggest is very close to what I have used. I added 4% 50/50 solder which gave me just a bit less than 2% tin in the final mix. I will check into the Forster hollow pointer and work on my shot placement. As you said, it's better to lose a little meat than to lose the whole deer.

[hc18flyer]

I had a similar experience last fall and this thread confirms what I was thinking. My 358 win will have a shallow hp and my target point will move forward. I may also try using pure lead in the nose of the RCBS 200? Thanks, Flyer