Nitrated ppaer

[docone31]

Hey guys, I need some advice here.
I like to fire cap and ball revolvers. They are slow to load, we all know that.
How do I make papers to preload the powder?
I hope to load 40gns in my Dragoon, with either a ball or conical. Last time I went to the range, I could fire once during the firing cycle. Loading takes real time. I imagine measuring the powder to find the sweet charge added to load time, but now I have the weight.
I will make the dowel, then make the cartridges to fill.
What techniques have worked for nitrating paper?

[Omnivore]

Hello docone,

I would say that you have no reason to nitrate your paper. Using perm paper, I've fired over 100 cartridges in one session with perfect ignition on every shot. In this video I detail the materials and technique, using a wood dowel, un-treated hair curling paper and glue stick;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=_JIyc6s8fnQ

To increase the charge weight from 30 grains, you'll of course have to either reduce the taper, make the cartridge longer at the small end, or both.

The trick is in getting the paper to fit tight around the projectile at the same time it is hard against the powder, with the desired powder charge. Fortunately the paper will stretch a little bit, and once you get close the right dowel taper you can tweak the charge slightly to make everything come together as I said.

You might might also be interested in this thread here;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8975.0
because it relates closely to the issue of the easy, uninterrupted and successful firing of many shots.

Further, being that the goal here is convenience, ease simplicity and speed, eliminating the process of nitrating goes right along with the plan.

The main question I would have regarding your Dragoon; is it even feasible to load it with cartridges? My Colt Navy and Army models from Uberti and Pietta respectively are very hostile to the use of cartridges. I will have to remove a considerable amount of steel from around the loading window in the barrel to be able to a get cartridge into the chamber without tearing it (see photo, which is a Pietta Colt '60 Army - the cartridge is jammed against the outer chamber wall and the barrel and it will not go in much farther without ripping it). More taper to the cartridge case would help, but that would either reduce its powder capacity or make it much longer.

The Remington repros on the other hand are thoroughly accommodating to cartridges made with round ball, but to get the Lee 200 grain and other conicals to load on the gun I had to open up the loading window in the Pietta Army frame.

In short; the issue of nitrating is a done deal-- no need to bother, while there may be issues with getting your desired 40 grain cartridge to load at all, depending on the geometry of your particular gun.

[Texantothecore]

Sally Beauty sells end papers for perms and they work quite well.

[Baja_Traveler]

This is great - my wife is already laughing that I frequent the beauty supply to pick up Sally Hanson Hard as Nails nail polish for my fly tying, now I can pick up something else while I'm there...

[Texantothecore]

Yup. I refer to it as Sally Beauty Ammo Supply.

[bedbugbilly]

Omnivore - good post!

In regards to your photo and comments about difficulty in sliding cartridge in without tearing - can you not insert the cartridge into the chamber and then rotate it under the loading lever? I believe that regionally, that was how it was done with combustible cartridges.

I fooled with the combustible cartridges some many years ago. I lost the patience to make them but may attempt it again sometime for my Navies. I admire those who have the patience to do it!

docone31 - How are you loading at the range? If you haven't tried them, you may want to consider the "tubes" sold by a number to the sutlers to N-SSA shooters where they powder is pre-measured, put in the tube and the tube sealed with the ball. It speeds things up quite a bit over the use of a flask and measure - however - a combustible cartridge would still be faster. If you consider the tubes - go to the N-SSA site, their links for suppliers and check out Winchester Sutler, S & S, Lodgewood, etc. - I don't remember who carries the tubes but several probably do. They are re-usable and you could easily make a wood holding block to hold a quantity of pre-measured charges.

[docone31]

Lots of good stuff here. I appreciate it.
I measured my cylinder and I get .443 on all holes. So, my thought would be like a gentleman here implied, I would use .50 cal balls, sized to .452. He does .454, but at the moment I do not have one. The Lee conical is .450
Now, with the cylinder that size, I can make paper cartridges, then add the ball. Similiar to loading like an ordinary cap and ball revolver.
My issues with loading at the range, is, the table there is a little too low for me, I use only a measure with no funnel, and I put into the measure from the jug, then dump into the hole. The charge is great, the loading lever falls occasionally.
I will try those papers and use the ball and ram to crack the paper while in the chamber. Then grease.
I like this pistol. It is massive, looks great, fits my hand well, and is really smooth.
I like.
And, thanks for the help, videos, and general encouragement. I got the POI down to level sights, I filed the hammer, and it does get attention while some folks cough and leave the firing line. I love that smell and do not under stand the coughing. Five rounds and it does get smokey for a tad, but it clears. The guy with the machine pistol is harder to be next to than a smoke pole.
That is just me. I watch them also. Never wanted one, but they are fun to watch.
Thanks for the help.
I now have new things to try.

[Fly]

No need to nitrate papers. I been using the hair rolling papers for years with out a problem.
There much cheaper also.
Fly

[59sharps]

wal-mart has sally papers. sure cheaper than a salon

[Omnivore]

...can you not insert the cartridge into the chamber and then rotate it under the loading lever?

You cannot. Look at the photo. Better yet look at your own Colt Wap repro. You will easily notice that you cannot look straight down a chamber, regardless of its position, due to the thickness of the barrel structure. That means the cartridge must bend as it is being inserted. As I remove steel from the barrel structure (which if you look closely you see that I've done some steel removal already) the required bending of the cartridge becomes less.

Now look at a Remington repro. You will easily notice that you *can* look straight into a chamber! meaning that a cartridge may be dropped straight in alongside the frame.

The loading cutout itself is a somewhat different issue.

One solution for a Colt, as it seems was stated above, is to make "cartridges" containing powder only, meaning that you end up with paper "powder bags". Those are inserted in a Colt repro easily, followed by the ball or conical bullet, much like using Pyrodex pellets, only the black powder bags ignite more reliably than the pellets. Still of course it is faster and more convenient to use full-blown cartridges if you can.

[docone31]

Went to Wally world, and came up with a zero on the curler papers.
Any other suggestions? I kind of floored them with that proposition.
What other types of paper can be used?

[Omnivore]

Keep looking. I got mine at Walgreens as I say in the video, but any place that does hairstyling, or caters to hairstylists, will have them.

To the beauty parlor, Boys!

You can use cigarette papers if you can find them big enough for 44 caliber, but the perm papers (A.K.A. "End Wraps", A.K.A. "curling papers") are most convenient. Mine are labeled "Jumbo End Wraps". I can get two of my extra-length "pull tab" cases from each sheet, with some left over. Since you use a glue stick at the small end anyway, the gum on a cigarette paper is no benefit.

If you can't find them locally (but I bet you can - are there any people in your area who get their hair permmed? - then the end wraps are in your area) then you can always find them on-line and mail order them. One box of a thousand sheets will last you a good long time - that's two thousand cartridges, minus the little bit you use for the end caps. They're much cheaper than cigarette papers too, and they're better besides.

As an aside; I timed myself making 15 cartridges from start to finish. Starting with the lead already cast, the paper sheets already cut out, and the lube cookies already made, it took an average of about one minute and 47 seconds per cartridge, using the method shown in my video. I have no doubt that the process could be made more efficient.

[skeettx]

And when making up ammo for our Slant Breech Sharps Carbines the smaller calibers I use cigarette paper and for the bigger cartridges I use the paper that comes in shoe boxes :)

Mike

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Hello docone,

I would say that you have no reason to nitrate your paper. Using perm paper, I've fired over 100 cartridges in one session with perfect ignition on every shot. In this video I detail the materials and technique, using a wood dowel, un-treated hair curling paper and glue stick;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=_JIyc6s8fnQ

To increase the charge weight from 30 grains, you'll of course have to either reduce the taper, make the cartridge longer at the small end, or both.

The trick is in getting the paper to fit tight around the projectile at the same time it is hard against the powder, with the desired powder charge. Fortunately the paper will stretch a little bit, and once you get close the right dowel taper you can tweak the charge slightly to make everything come together as I said.

You might might also be interested in this thread here;
http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=8975.0
because it relates closely to the issue of the easy, uninterrupted and successful firing of many shots.

Further, being that the goal here is convenience, ease simplicity and speed, eliminating the process of nitrating goes right along with the plan.

The main question I would have regarding your Dragoon; is it even feasible to load it with cartridges? My Colt Navy and Army models from Uberti and Pietta respectively are very hostile to the use of cartridges. I will have to remove a considerable amount of steel from around the loading window in the barrel to be able to a get cartridge into the chamber without tearing it (see photo, which is a Pietta Colt '60 Army - the cartridge is jammed against the outer chamber wall and the barrel and it will not go in much farther without ripping it). More taper to the cartridge case would help, but that would either reduce its powder capacity or make it much longer.

The Remington repros on the other hand are thoroughly accommodating to cartridges made with round ball, but to get the Lee 200 grain and other conicals to load on the gun I had to open up the loading window in the Pietta Army frame.

In short; the issue of nitrating is a done deal-- no need to bother, while there may be issues with getting your desired 40 grain cartridge to load at all, depending on the geometry of your particular gun.

Thanks for your most excellent video. Showing your technique has taken the "fumble" out of my process for sure.

BvT

[Fly]

Well go Google Sally hair rolling papers. Most Wal-Marts do carry them, you may be like me
& missed them. But anyway they will tell you were they may be bought.

Fly

[Omnivore]

BvT; Thank you. I was hoping it would get other people into making cartridges more efficiently. As stated, it was a video from capandball which got me doing it that way, with a slight variation, so be sure to check out the capandball channel also on YouTube.

I did a lot of fumbling myself before he put his video up and showed us The Way, and he in turn credits someone else, and so on back, being as that particular method has it's origins in the 1860s or earlier. You'll still tear the paper now and then, or crumple your cases before getting them assembled, as I still do sometimes, but it's gets pretty easy pretty fast.

[Hang Fire]

Hey guys, I need some advice here.
I like to fire cap and ball revolvers. They are slow to load, we all know that.
How do I make papers to preload the powder?
I hope to load 40gns in my Dragoon, with either a ball or conical. Last time I went to the range, I could fire once during the firing cycle. Loading takes real time. I imagine measuring the powder to find the sweet charge added to load time, but now I have the weight.
I will make the dowel, then make the cartridges to fill.
What techniques have worked for nitrating paper?

Get potassium nitrate stump remover from big box stores, Ace & etc. Take small container of water, add stump remover (stirring well) until potassium nitrate granules no longer dissolve. Soak paper (doesn't take long) then dry and it is ready to be used. I used nitrated paper in my 1863 paper cartridge Sharps and they worked very well.

[Dryball]

Hang Fire, in your method what kind of paper do you use? I currently use cigarette papers but would love to try your method for the heck of it. I think, from a practical stand point, the hair curler paper is the way to go

[Bardo]

I don't use Nitrated paper. I use Perm paper. in post #46 I have some pics of how I do it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?229093-Field-loading-c-amp-b-revolvers/page3

[gnoahhh]

I still stick with nitrating my own paper. I use Japanese rice paper bought at the local art supply store and soak it in a super-saturated solution of salt peter or stump remover. The rice paper is porous and aids in combustion I believe. It makes for a cartridge that is more rugged than one made with cigarette paper or the ilk. Just my opinion. Whatever works for YOU is the best way.

[docone31]

Well, I tried to make my own bullets.
I took a .50 ball, actually .495, sized it down to .452.
Sweet. Cupped base, ball end. Smooth sides.
Now I do not need a mold. I still prefer balls, but this was interesting.
Papers next.

[Hang Fire]

Hang Fire, in your method what kind of paper do you use? I currently use cigarette papers but would love to try your method for the heck of it. I think, from a practical stand point, the hair curler paper is the way to go


I mostly used some thin tracing paper had laying around.