Virgin Lead for 45 ACP 230 grn?

[detroitcharlie]

Any thoughts on using 99% pure virgin lead with no tin or linotype if cast bullets are water quenched for hardness? Using a LEE MOLD DC 452-230TC (http://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-452-230tc.html) 145254

LEE recommends 95/5 lead/tin alloy. I'm loading Hodgdon Titegroup and was going to load for fps below 850.

[bangerjim]

PURE LEAD WILL NOT WATER HARDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sb is where you get the WD hardness.

If you enjoy mining Pb out of your gun barrels, go ahead and cast pure.

I would not. You need some Sb for hardness and Sn for fill.

banger

[n.h.schmidt]

Soft lead has worked nicely for my 45acp loads. I have used phone cable lead and that is as soft as it comes. It works for my pistols and a 45acp carbine I made up almost 40 years ago. No leading and good accuracy .
Speeds up to 1000 fps in the carbine. Any faster and the cases blew the primer pockets. Water quenching will not harden pure or nearly pure lead . Water quenching will work with most alloys for lead though,like wheel weights.
n.h.schmidt

[mdi]

Well, there you have it! Personally I'll go with bangerjim's reply; pure lead won't harden without some antimony. And there's no reason to harden lead for a 45 ACP, being low and slow. My predominate 45 ACP alloy is roughly 10 on the BHN scale...

[white eagle]

Yep what he said
PURE LEAD WILL NOT WATER HARDEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [smilie=s:

[detroitcharlie]

Soft lead has worked nicely for my 45acp loads. I have used phone cable lead and that is as soft as it comes. It works for my pistols and a 45acp carbine I made up almost 40 years ago. No leading and good accuracy .
Speeds up to 1000 fps in the carbine. Any faster and the cases blew the primer pockets. Water quenching will not harden pure or nearly pure lead . Water quenching will work with most alloys for lead though,like wheel weights.
n.h.schmidt

Thanks... so I'll be ok with 99% pure lead below velocities of 1000 fps, correct?

I appreciate the reminder on virgin lead and water quenching ! :veryconfu

[runfiverun]

you might be fine.
you'll have to work the fitment, and the pressure rise of the load.

if things don't look good and you want quicker success adding some antimony and tin will help.
you don't need a lot.
1% tin and 1.5% antimony should be enough for the 45 acp it isn't a high pressure round.

[jcren]

I shoot that bullet over 7 grains of titegroup cast from 50/50 wheelweight and pure. But I powdercoat.

[n.h.schmidt]

You can't get anywhere near 1000 fps in a pistol for 45acp.Only in a rifle. You should be ok in regular 45acp loadings for your pistols.
n.h.schmidt

[243winxb]

If the bullet will drop from the mould at the correct diameter, give it a try. :popcorn:

[Down South]

I haven't tried pure in my 45's although I've been tempted. I have plenty of it. My 45 alloy is a 50/50 mix of COWW and pure with about 2% tin added and comes out to right at 10 BHN air cooled. It does well in all of my 45's so I haven't changed the alloy.

[Jonesy]

I've shot pure lead from my 45 ACP and had no problems, I kept the powder charge at the minimum though. Didn't have any issues with leading or anything, but your mileage may vary.

[2wheelDuke]

Sounds like a waste of pure lead to me. I run range scrap for 95% of my .45acp loads. The only ones I don't make of range scrap are 20:1 for hollowpoints that I want to expand. My typical range scrap doesn't expand all that well at typical .45 velocity.

[243winxb]

Near pure caused feeding problems for me. Soft nose hitting feed ramp.

[jhalcott]

like243win says pure caused feeding and leading issues. fit of boolit MAY have been part of it.

[gray wolf]

And there's no reason to harden lead for a 45 ACP, being low and slow. My predominate 45 ACP alloy is roughly 10 on the BHN scale...

Truly not trying to be a wise guy, but, Pure is about 5 on the hardness scale, if you shoot 10 on the scale it has to be hardened with something, right ?

If you shoot the pure at a low velocity without feeding problems do to nicked deformed bullet ---it may work for you---then again it may not.

I don't think there is a standard answer being everyone may use a little different approach --- to a situation that has the potential to be problematic.

As others have said, try it and see, if you have a problem it may only take a small change to correct it. ( small amount of hardening )

[bhn22]

My new stock answer for questions like this: Try it, and let us know how it works out.

[GaryN]

I shoot that bullet over 7 grains of titegroup cast from 50/50 wheelweight and pure. But I powdercoat.

I would be real careful with that load if you are shooting it in a 45 acp. That is 1 1/2 grains over max. in the books. My gun would never take it.

[MBTcustom]

Oh for heavens sake.

It works fine! Keep your speeds low, keep your powder slow, cast the bullets .452 and use a good lube like BAC.
If you shoot it and it leads, try a different powder (like Unique), if it still leads, try powder coating.

You can find a combination that works in one range session and just keep mashing that button till free gum-balls stop coming out the little chute.

If I can shoot 9BHN at 2200FPS without leading, then you can shoot 6BHN at 700 all day long. Besides, I've done it.
Adding tin or antimony makes it easier to find a combination and gives you a lot more options and you can hot rod things a little more, but it's far from necessary.

[tygar]

I have had leading problems with pure/almost pure in non mag handguns.

All problems go away with COWWs or 1/2 & 1/2 CO/SO WWs air cooled in non mag or hi pressure loads. In .44 mag at mag velocity or other hi pressure loads water dropped does it fine.

When I go to hot stuff like 454 - 500 full power stuff, I stick some lino in it to make #2, minus a little tin if I can make it 93-94, 5, 2-3. If its monster stuff just water drop.

PB 45s, 38s, 380s, most 9mm, 44spl, moderate 44mag doesn't need more than COWWs! period! Add the GC, good lube & water drop will do everything in handguns except for the very hotest.

[Mike W1]

Soft lead has worked nicely for my 45acp loads. I have used phone cable lead and that is as soft as it comes. It works for my pistols and a 45acp carbine I made up almost 40 years ago. No leading and good accuracy .
Speeds up to 1000 fps in the carbine. Any faster and the cases blew the primer pockets. Water quenching will not harden pure or nearly pure lead . Water quenching will work with most alloys for lead though,like wheel weights.
n.h.schmidt

Funny, I spliced telephone cable and salvaged a lot of lead. It is NOT pure lead and I suspect most of it's hardness comes from Sb in it. Sleeve lead is softer than sheath and after a year of aging was up around 9 BHN and the sheath aged to around 11 BHN. Never could find anything that gave me a real idea what's in it but it sure ain't pure lead. Sometime I should try a water quench on it and see if it is affected by it. Good rainy day project to keep in mind.

[detroitcharlie]

Near pure caused feeding problems for me. Soft nose hitting feed ramp.

Yup I discover the same for about 10% of the rounds.

[detroitcharlie]

I have had leading problems with pure/almost pure in non mag handguns.

All problems go away with COWWs or 1/2 & 1/2 CO/SO WWs air cooled in non mag or hi pressure loads. In .44 mag at mag velocity or other hi pressure loads water dropped does it fine.

When I go to hot stuff like 454 - 500 full power stuff, I stick some lino in it to make #2, minus a little tin if I can make it 93-94, 5, 2-3. If its monster stuff just water drop.

PB 45s, 38s, 380s, most 9mm, 44spl, moderate 44mag doesn't need more than COWWs! period! Add the GC, good lube & water drop will do everything in handguns except for the very hotest.

I did start to get some leading about 15 rounds in. Also, I realized my powder loads were way too high. I'm def gonna mix in some tin or antimony next go around and cut the powder load by about 10-15%. 4.5 grs of Titrgroup was too much. Another thought... I was using the Federal Magnum large pistol primers. I might trying dialing down to 3.9 grns.

[GoodAlloy]

Oh for heavens sake.

It works fine! Keep your speeds low, keep your powder slow, cast the bullets .452 and use a good lube like BAC.
If you shoot it and it leads, try a different powder (like Unique), if it still leads, try powder coating.

You can find a combination that works in one range session and just keep mashing that button till free gum-balls stop coming out the little chute.

If I can shoot 9BHN at 2200FPS without leading, then you can shoot 6BHN at 700 all day long. Besides, I've done it.
Adding tin or antimony makes it easier to find a combination and gives you a lot more options and you can hot rod things a little more, but it's far from necessary.

Good steel is square on the mark and I would agree 100%. Feeding soft alloy can be a problem on rough feed ramps. But if your ramp is smooth you don't need hard alloy unless you want to run full bore velocity &have shallow rifling. I have seen more problems with skidding than pressure related leading or lube failure in the 45 ACP, 9mm, 40,10mm, revolvers are a different story. Soft is usually much, much better than hard as long as the boolit fits the throats well.

[rintinglen]

Near pure caused feeding problems for me. Soft nose hitting feed ramp.

Me too! I once got about 50 pounds of lead shielding out of an old dentist office. I had problems with my Sig, which had formerly gobbled up my handloads with a Lee TL SWC. Suddenly, It was having Failures to feed with the boolit grabbing on the ramp and slowing things up. Asking a more experienced reloader of my acquaintance for advice, I added a pound of linotype and a bit of tin to my Lee 10 lber, and things got better.

I use pure and tin for a 30-1 mix for serious hollow points. I would not use it for standard boolits.

[Moonie]

Wasn't it 20-1 lead-tin that Elmer considered hard cast and he used that in the 44mag? 20bhn just isn't needed for the 45acp...

[detroitcharlie]

Truly not trying to be a wise guy, but, Pure is about 5 on the hardness scale, if you shoot 10 on the scale it has to be hardened with something, right ?

If you shoot the pure at a low velocity without feeding problems do to nicked deformed bullet ---it may work for you---then again it may not.

I don't think there is a standard answer being everyone may use a little different approach --- to a situation that has the potential to be problematic.

As others have said, try it and see, if you have a problem it may only take a small change to correct it. ( small amount of hardening )

I way over-charged these shells and had magnum primer as well. Not good. Fail.. Fail.. Fail.. Definitely needs a little tin and antimony or gas-checked and reduced charge. Hodgdon Titegroup recommends 4.0-4.5 grns this round. I'd probably go down to 3.9- I'm not sure how much of an impact those magnum primers are having.