Yay, it sorta worked.

[Adam10mm]

These are 10mm bullets made on the CH4D #101 dies I ordered the other day. Just got them today.

Core on core seating punch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270004.jpg

Case (jacket) on core. The core seating punch (in the ram) pushes the jacket base against the flat punch in the die and smooshes the core into the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270005.jpg

Raised into core seating die
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270006.jpg

Bullet core, 3 bullets made with core nose up, 2 bullets made with core nose down. At this point I could have used the bullets as they are, but a rounded profile feeds better. I could sell these as revolver bullets though. Would make a hell of a WFN, eh?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270003.jpg

Sit the bullet jacket down, exposed core up, raise into the second die, the swaging die (aka bullet forming die). This gives the bullet its ogive shape and the hollow point. To make a soft point I just need to swap out the nose forming punch to a soft point one. With just a swap of the nose forming punch I can make either soft points or hollow points with this single set of two dies.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270007.jpg

[Adam10mm]

Comes out like this. If I was using actual jackets and lead wire it would have looked better. This bullet cost me only the lead, which I bought at 15¢/lb. The case was free from the ground.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270008.jpg

Point forming punch not reaching far enough in the jacket. Notice the core does not fill the jacket completely. If I were using a longer bullet, it would have filled the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270002_01.jpg



Perfect hollow points, but core is seated too far into the jacket.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270004_01.jpg

2 bad, 2 better, 2 best.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270001.jpg

Dummy round with swaged bullet. Seating depth is an OOPS at 1.215”. Might make a hell of a bullet though. I could maybe get a nose punch machined to fold the mouth over and have a "protected hollow point". Ballistic benefits of a hollow point but deeper penetration of a FMJ.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Bullet%20Swaging/P3270002_02.jpg

[Rat-Man]

Not trying to be a critic but I think you are going to have to trim your jackets. From what I know the jacket should be full plus a little bit like the following picture.

http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/images/101demo2.gif

Then into the forming die.

http://www.ch4d.com/catalog/images/101demo3.gif

The hollow point punch would then form the hollow point in the lead exposed above the jacket and look more like the kawalekm's 44 bullet.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Swaged44bullet.jpg

[Adam10mm]

Trim the jackets. OK, I was thinking the other variable: longer core to fill the jacket.

Sounds easier to trim than mess with cores, which will mess with weight.

Looks like I need to trim off .125" off the jacket. Should be about .620" long jackets. I'll trim a few later tonight and see what I can come up with.

I have a single .380 case here but that is smaller in diameter than the 9mm case. I checked bullet setback of my dummy round at 50lbs of weight and no setback.

Oh, and your criticism is welcome. I need all the expertise I can get.

[pumpguy]

What size case are you using for the jacket?

Posted at the same time as you. OOPS.

[Adam10mm]

This is just tiding me over until I get some wire, jackets, and a cutter.

These have the same ogive as Nosler JHPs so these are going to be good bullets once I get them all figured out. I don't think I did too bad for a mystery first run. I'll trim some cases tonight and see what I can come up with. The cases are too short to fit in my RCBS trimmer so I have to rig something up.

[Buckshot]

.................You can order ball bearings from several places. The new ENCO mailer has SS, high carbon, and chrome plated ones on sale. The high carbon are the least expensive and they only cost a few cents each. Buy a size which goes into the case you're using for the jacket, and will still leave room aorund it for lead to flow.

Set the BB on the flash hole and then set the core on top of it and run it up into the die. This will be the same as using a longer core and the lead will fill the nose form better. On the other hand the steel BB in the rear will bias weight forward. You can also place the steel BB on the nose of the core as it enters the die.

Since the nose forming die is apparently doing a RN, the BB will center and the lead core will form up around it to a degree and hold it in place. Once again it's merely added material which will make your lead core fill more space.

.................Buckshot

[Adam10mm]

I have to put the core on the seating punch and the jacket on top of hat. I don't think it will work the way you said it. I tried with #BB shot and it didn't work.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill ask it again what size case are you using? they look like 9mm. If so why dont you try some 380 brass if you want shorter cups

[Adam10mm]

They are 9mm cases. The .380s might be long (short) enough but the heads are way smaller than the 9mm head. Most of the 9mm case after swaging measures .395" and where the ogive begins measures a true .400". Think of it as a tapered shank.

If I use .380 cases I would have a bullet that would bounce down the barrel as it won't engage the rifling.

[Rat-Man]

Most of the 9mm case after swaging measures .395" and where the ogive begins measures a true .400". Think of it as a tapered shank.


FreakShow,

I bet if you trim those cases to the length that you need and then anneal them with a torch, so that they are soft, you will be able to expand the base of the 9mm case closer to .400".

You probably won't get it all the way down because the web is so thick, but maybe further down than your getting now.

[Adam10mm]

I'll have to pick up a torch. I used a hot plate and then the stove but didn't really get too soft. They were still pretty hard.

[kawalekm]

Hi Freakshow
Nice pics. You did a very good job of documenting your process. I have a couple of questions/suggestions for you. First, what is the size/weight of your lead core? It looks like its only a 100-115 grain 9mm bullet. A 9mm case weighs about 62 grains, so I'd guess your core/jacket combo weighs 160-175 grains.

For a 10mm bullet, maybe it would work better with a heavier core. I made some Lyman 358477 bullets of pure lead to use as cores, and they cast out at 150 grains. With that core/jacket combo, you'd make a 210grain bullet. If you extrude a couple of grains of lead during core-seating, then your final bullet weight would be 200-205grains. That seems like a perfect high-performance 10mm load.

Second, how hot does your hotplate get? I'd suggest using the kitchen stove instead. I got my cases glowing-red hot on our gas stove. If you have electric, I'd suggest sitting the cases on the element head down and heating them till they glow red. As I see in your pictures, the extraction groove is still intact on your bullets, which suggests the cases are not soft enough or the swaging pressure isn't high enough. I'd start with more anealing.

As Lloyd suggests, the "jackets" are too long for that size "core". You can trim down the 9mm cases, but the other suggestion of using 380 cases shouldn't be discounted with trying it. If the 380's are heated red-hot and dead-soft, they might bump up to .400. Try it!

One other way to make your jacketed cores is to melt your lead and dip your cases into it. A 9mm case completely full of lead weighs about 210 grains, so again that sounds like a great weight for a 10mm bullet. Keep at it, and we can race to see who has ballistics results first!
Michael

[Adam10mm]

The core 90gr from an RCBS 38-90-RN. These came out at 150gr. Diameter as cast is .355".

I tried it with the two 145gr 9mm boolits (14 BHN) I had laying around from a mix up. Came real close to the lip of the jacket. Tried a .32 bullet from a Lee 312-93-1R. Worse than the others.

The hot plate didn't get too hot, I moved them to the rangetop. They didn't get red hot, just discolored. I'm impatient.:mrgreen: I noticed the groove was still intact and didn't know what to think of it.

How long were they on there before the started glowing?

I will definately be working on this. I'm sure you will beat me to it. I'm going out of state on business this weekend and won't see the range until next week maybe if I'm lucky.

Adam

[kawalekm]

Hi Adam
It takes about 45 seconds at full burner to get a case red hot. I made a little wire holder so I can anneal 4-5 cases at a time, but it looks like I can only heat two at a time to red hotness on my particular stove. When I swaged my 44 bullets, I noticed that the rim itself did not swage all the way up to .429, but the body of the case just above the rim did bump up to .429". This makes my bullet sort of a boattail. These details suggest that your cases aren't soft enough.

Here's one more thing you can try with a 380 case. I filled one with molten lead to the rim and the case/core then weights 180 grains. That sounds like a perfect size for your 10mm. Try picking up the case with tongs, dipping the case in lead, then letting it solidify inside the case. Once cool you can try running it up into the swaging die. If the bullet will bump up to .400" then you've got it made.

By the way, how well did the BHN 14 bullet-cores swage? I've been afraid to try any wheelweight metal myself yet.
Good luck,
Michael

[Southern Son]

Seeing this done on the RCBS(it is a RCBS isn't it?) press is good. I have a Simplex which is basically an Ozy made rip off of the RCBS (I see you are using a rubber band to hold on the spent primer catcher, I am using a bit of cord with a sliding knot, and mine is an RCBS primer catcher). The biggest problem down under is getting the swaging dies. There is nobody that makes them, at all. Freakshow, thanks for the photos of how you did this, even though it was not a complete success, it was still very revealing to someone who has never seen this done before.

Ron.

[kawalekm]

Hi Ron
I've lived overseas, so I too know what it's like trying to get American made stuff. You might want to try contacting CH anyway at "www.ch4d.com" and seeing if they'll do international shipping. I'm assuming they will, just as long as you pay for it. The die set is actually very compact, coming in a box that's only 16 X 11 X 4 cm, and weighs about 1500 grams, and I would think they could just slip that into a large FedEx shipping envelop. Here's their contact information.

Mailing: P.O. Box 889
Shipping: 711 N. Sandusky St.
Mt. Vernon, OH 43050
U.S.A
Phone: 1-740-397-7214 Fax: 1-740-397-6600

Good luck,
Michael

[georgeld]

You guys in AU, order things and have it shipped to me and I'll remail it for you.
Just pay the expenses' is all I ask.

Too bad you didn't get them sent last week, I'm shipping a barrel and some bullets to a guy this coming week. Just got his papers okay'd Friday.

[Southern Son]

Kawalekm and George,
I just imported a bullet mould from Steve BROOKS. That is the only thing I have imported (I was all set to get a Green Mountain barrel, had the import permit and all, but I found one here in Australia). The Shipping on the mould was only $16.00US, about 20 Ozbucks, so the dies would probably be in the same area. The biggest problem is that the dies, when bought new, cost an arm and a leg. I would love to be able to go to some of the US gun shows and see what I find there. The last one I went to here in Australia was 500 tables of over priced guns and Enfield bayonets, a couple of reloading dies (for boring calibers like .223 or .308) and some old coins. Most of the stuff in Australian gun shows is being put out by gunshops, so you can get the rubbish any old day of the week there.

Whenever something interesting does turn up in a gun show or a shop, it is overpriced to blazes. A good example comes to mind, in another posting on this forum, a fellow has an old rolling block. A couple of posters said that they bout similar for between $250.00 to $300.00. Late last year I went into a Gun shop in Toowoomba and they had an old Roller on the rack. The Stock was stuffed (complete junk), and the barrel on the way out (it looked like a drinking straw on the outside, thin as hell, and the rifleing was rusted. The action was probably savageable and it came with about 100 50/70 cases. They wanted $1000.00 dollars. No, I did not make a typing mistake, the price was $1000.00. If you bought it you would need $400.00 for a barrel, $200.00 to fit it, and probably $300.00 to $500.00 for a decent stock.

If I could afford them, I would happily buy a set of dies from one of the Corbin Brothers, but in the mean time, I will have to dream about finding an old set of dies here in Oz for a decent price. Thanks for the offer to help, to, George. Most gentlemanly of you.

[Adam10mm]

Hi Adam
It takes about 45 seconds at full burner to get a case red hot. I made a little wire holder so I can anneal 4-5 cases at a time, but it looks like I can only heat two at a time to red hotness on my particular stove. When I swaged my 44 bullets, I noticed that the rim itself did not swage all the way up to .429, but the body of the case just above the rim did bump up to .429". This makes my bullet sort of a boattail. These details suggest that your cases aren't soft enough.
I bought a propane torch over the weekend on my business trip. Annealed 6 9mm cases red hot and let them air cool. put in a 90gr core and swaged it. Same thing, .395 head.

Then I got pissed and ran a .312 90gr 1R boolit in there, then seated a 90gr RN on top of that, then swaged it. Came out with a wrinkled case, 250gr, and .410". The CH4D set for 40/10mm is .410 for some reason. I did a total of three like this I think and they came out the same. I ran just a 90gr core with the case and it stayed at .395.


Here's one more thing you can try with a 380 case. I filled one with molten lead to the rim and the case/core then weights 180 grains. That sounds like a perfect size for your 10mm. Try picking up the case with tongs, dipping the case in lead, then letting it solidify inside the case. Once cool you can try running it up into the swaging die. If the bullet will bump up to .400" then you've got it made.
The jacket length I need is just about as long as a .380 case. I have a few on the way and should have them tomorrow in my PO box. I use a bottom pour pot so I could pour directly to the case.


By the way, how well did the BHN 14 bullet-cores swage? I've been afraid to try any wheelweight metal myself yet.
Good luck,
Michael
Not as bad as what I thought. Definately lube up. I just used a light touch of Imperial.

[wonderwolf]

I realize I'm getting in on this a little late but a CH 101 .41 swage set is on its way to my place soon and before I found this I was wondering about using 9mm cases for jackets or even A merc 38 spl brass with the rims turned down and cases shortened. you mentioned that your die set is for 10mm/40 cal but is giving you .410 diam bullets? or did I misunderstand something?

kawalekm- what cases are you using for 44 cal bullets?