Which SWC mold for the .44 Magnum?

[jayjay1]

Hello guys,
I´m searching for an accurate lead bullet, shot out of a S&W 629 6,5".

Want to use it for precision paper punching in competition.
A SWC-design would be prefered, for clean round holes in the discs.
:bigsmyl2:

Which one is the way to go?
:oops:

[6bg6ga]

I believe that decision is one that your going to have to make on your own. Any SWC design will cut a clean hole for you. I'm a believer in a accurate load is one that is worked up for that particular gun. In my opinion there is no best load out of a reloading magazine because I've had a 50/50 luck with the so called accurate loads that are published in reloading manuals.

[Maximumbob54]

I've found the Miha molds in HP to be very accurate. I'm assuming it's because the HP allows the center of mass to be farther back but you still have a long heavy bullet. Either way, they work in my 6" 629-5.

[Lead Fred]

We have one 44 mould, works in the hand cannons and the 1971 Winnie

145128

[Petrol & Powder]

I use the RCBS 44-250-K and find it to be an outstanding bullet. I purchased that mold on advice from others on this forum and they steered me in the right direction. That may be one of the best all around bullets for the 44 Special & 44 Magnum. Some folks like the older RCBS 44-250-KT design which is a little more true to pure "Keith" form but that mold is out of production so you have to find an old one.
You'll get lots of advice on this topic but I would strongly suggest you research the RCBS 250 gr SWC or one of the many clones. That design is accurate, useful in a wide variety of applications and very well proven.

By the way, I avoid full power magnum loads and generally load 44 magnum cases to duplicate the "Skeeter" 44 Special loads. Using a 44 Magnum casing, 8.1 grains of Unique and the RCBS 44-250-K bullet cast from 20:1 alloy gives me excellent results in my S&W 629 with a 4" barrel.
That load will handle 90%+ of everything a 44 is called upon to perform and it doesn't beat up the shooter or the gun. It is also far more accurate than I am.

[Char-Gar]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.

[randyrat]

Mihec's (#503 ?)- 432-256 Brass ... It may be the last 44 mold you will ever buy because you won't need another one. It makes the best boolits you can imagine for the Forty Four. Just simply amazing.
Plain base Keith

[lightman]

Its hard to go wrong with any of Elmer Keiths designs. Most companys offer molds in the 240-250 weight range that will do what you want.

[44man]

Any of those shown will work, however I did different while looking for accuracy. I tested all my alloys and as I made the boolits harder, accuracy started to improve until I was shooting 50 yard groups smaller then at 25, using Unique and 231. The boolits really started to shine at 28 BHN.
I did not see a huge difference from 7 gr of Unique to 10 gr. Just grabbing a load of, say, 8 gr will be good enough.
I figured the hard boolits guide through the cone better.

[jayjay1]

Ok, thanks so far.

As I understand it right, all of you recommend a boolit round about the old EK design.

Well, yes, if possible I won´t use gas checks.
Yes, I will shoot .44 Magnum and .44 Special with it.
But no, I don´t like HP-molds so much, because of the extra work.
:oops:

28 BHN is extremly tough I suppose?

[gray wolf]

here are some targets shot with 2 different bullets. One of them is the Lyman 429421
The other is a mold from Tom.

9.4 grains of Unique,

HS6

and I believe Long shot

[Hannibal]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.

+1. No sense in writing the same thing twice. I find this to be spot-on.

[hogstad7]

I use NOE429421. Weighs 262gr coww. I am going to develop a precision load for paper soon. Just finished developing another load for my 357max. So many projects...

[KAYDADOG]

I've currently been loading the following two designs for my S&W 629 6"Competitor model and very pleased with results. Since I can now make any custom size 44/cal aluminum gas check I tend to just cast the gas check version, additional cost of less than $0.01 per gas check is not even a factor.

If I decide to load reduced loads I would probable use the non gas check design but that defeats the fun of shooting a Magnum Load.

Shooting the S&W 500 Magnum with a 10" barrel with 440/Gr gas check bullets is totally a whole different experience. I also shoot the Desert Eagle in 50/AE 6" barrel and 440/Corbon with a 10" barrel. The semi-auto Desert Eagle is very tame compared to the S&W 500. All I can say is you better have a very strong grip or you may be picking up the S&W 500 off the ground, it does have a very solid kick. Shooting 50/rounds your arms will feel what it can deliver.

44/cal bullet and load information used. H110 is highly recommended for Magnum loads.



44 MAGNUM 240-GR SWC-BB
SAECO TWO CAVITY #440 MOULD
0.430 SIZING DIE


44 MAGNUM 240-GR TC-GC
SAECO TWO CAVITY #424 MOULD

0.430 SIZING DIE




Loading data used Hodgdon H110

23.0 TO 24.0 GRAINS

[Frank V]

I use two the old Lyman 429421 & the RCBS 44-250-K.
Both are great moulds & without the extra expense & time of a GC.

[white eagle]

Mihec's (#503 ?)- 432-256 Brass ... It may be the last 44 mold you will ever buy because you won't need another one. It makes the best boolits you can imagine for the Forty Four. Just simply amazing.
Plain base Keith

I agree one of the best I have used
sent mine to Erik to have a couple cav's. with H.P's

[Mal Paso]

NOE's #503 Clone. Elmer's redesign of the 429421 after the advent of the 44 Magnum. 2 4 and 5 cavity aluminum and brass also Hollowpoint.

I have the 5 cavity aluminum molds. I had trouble with tinning on my brass #503s.

NOE is American Made and the quality is right up there with the famous European Import. :wink:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=1970&osCsid=8ndm8f7d8d3h2se1bou6duk613

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not a fan of gas checks for revolver bullets but that's a personal decision.
KAYDADOG is using gas checks but he is also running 23-24 grs of H110 ! There's nothing wrong with H110 and it is an excellent powder for magnum loads but there's no need to push a 240-260 grain 44 caliber bullet that fast just to punch holes in paper.
At 900-1000 fps a 250 grain 44 caliber, soft lead bullet will handle a lot tasks and it will handle those tasks amazingly well. There's nothing weak about a 250 grain 44 bullet travelling at 900 fps. That may not be magnum territory but it's far from the lower limit as well.

I occasionally load & shoot magnum cartridges and H110 is very well suited for those applications. The vast majority of my shooting is with loads well below magnum velocities and even when run well below maximum velocity the .44 caliber 250 grain LSWC is an extremely formidable round. At those reduced (but still very functional) velocities; H110 is decidedly not a good powder. There's nothing wrong with H110 for magnum applications. I like Unique because it is a bit more bulky and gives good results in that huge case at moderate pressures. There are other powders that will work equally as well at those non-magnum velocities.
Having a magnum revolver gives you the option of shooting magnum loads but it does not create a mandate to shoot magnum loads. There is tremendous benefit in utilizing a strong revolver to shoot less than maximum pressure cartridges.

One of the best threads on this forum is titled 75,000 wadcutters in a model 27 !

The race to achieve the highest possible velocity is one I choose not to participate in. I occasionally shoot full magnum loads and I shoot them just fine; but see little need to do it 100% of the time.

[murf205]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.

Char-Gar is spot on with the advice on Keith style boolits. Every .44 I have ever owned shot them as well or better than anything I stuffed in them. My favorite is a Lyman 429421 @ 250 grs with 16.5 grs of 2400 with std CCI primers. My Ruger SRH, a 629 S&W, a new model 24 S&W and a 80 yr old Hand Ejector 44 all love this boolit. The old Hand Ejector gets fed a milder load of 6.5 grs of Unique. Elmer got it right. You wont need a gas check.

[jayjay1]

here are some targets shot with 2 different bullets. One of them is the Lyman 429421
The other is a mold from Tom.



Hey gray wolf,
at what distance have those been shot?

The groups are looking all pretty much the same, not?

[jayjay1]

Thank you for all the input guys!
Like i wrote above, I´d prefer non-gas checked bullets.

It´s just for precise paper punching, no need to brake down the revolver asap.
:bigsmyl2:

Of course I will sometimes load "full house", just to have the fun, but not to often.

I have to make 250 Powe Factor, with +5 or so to have some reserve.
http://www.praschinger.com/faktor_rechner.html

That means, a 240gr. bullet has to make about 1.060fps, a 250gr. bullet has to go over 1.020fps.
Nothing more needed.

For doing some magnum loads, I can buy a LEE mold with GC for a low budget also.

[jayjay1]

Last question from me.

If a M29 with 6" or 6,5" comes my way, it would be my choice, but they are very rare over here.
So it will be the M29 or the 629, I will see.

Is the .430" sizing gtg for both of them?

[jayjay1]

Nice pictures here in #5:

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fototime.com/A8441B93102C41C/standard.jpg&imgrefurl=http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/121503-44-cal-rcbs-molds-what-difference.html&h=223&w=640&tbnid=KCkq9gtMxP_MbM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=258&usg=__VmKUIP7WG0FWTdajEhX9Try3SmY=&docid=8yQZ679atfLhZM&sa=X&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAmoVChMIkJWYypfxxgIVB_FyCh0KGgW2

[Petrol & Powder]

Size your bullets to fit the cylinder throats. If the bullet is a larger diameter than the throat the throat will effectively size the bullet down to that diameter anyway before it reaches the barrel. In a perfect world the throats will be slightly larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.
Sizing to .430" works well in most .44 S&W revolvers and is an excellent starting point. All guns are different but users report that .430" works for a large number of S&W .44 revolvers.

I haven't heard of the model 29 (blued) cylinders running any different from the 629 (stainless) but the text book answer is to measure your throats and slug your barrel. However, sizing to .430" will most likely give good results.


As for your power factor, lots of powders will safely get you there with 250 grain bullets. If you're using a progressive press you may wish to use a powder that meters well in a powder measure. Bullseye and 231 will both get you to your power level and they meter well. Unique will also get you to your power level but it doesn't always meter as well as other powders.

[Petrol & Powder]

Just playing around with your power factor calculator and some of my RCBS 44-250-K bullets gives promising results. My RCBS mold and 20:1 alloy gives me bullets around 258 grains. That weight makes a power factor of 255 at slightly lower velocities than the ones you quoted. I think your goal of reaching a PF of 255 is easily obtainable with that well proven bullet design and common powders.

Good Luck !!

[GLynn41]

as has been said RCBS or Accurate Molds 0r Lyman-- or make your own at Mountain Mold --- 245-250 gr Keith

[44man]

The molds I made for the .475 and .500 JRH are all PB and we shot the JRH boolit from a .500 S&W, no problems and I shoot near max. It is where my guns shoot best since we did a lot of 500 meter shooting too. I use 296 in all.
All I use are water dropped WW boolits.
I always shot the 429421 PB with a max load of 2400 long ago. I shot well over 400 yards using the silver inlays in the front sight like Elmer did.
I made my .44 hunting boolit with a GC and don't know why. I don't shoot soft lead and if I need any expansion I just make a portion of the nose softer.
I tried air cooled GC boolits and lost accuracy so I annealed the checks. Accuracy came back so I figure the softer copper has a better grab to the rifling and twist.
The GC is a skid stop and if your alloy and boolit toughness is good, you don't need them.

[Charley]

Another vote for the 429421. Works extremely well in all my .44s, Special or Magnum.

[44man]

I have NEVER been able to shoot soft lead from revolvers. You will have several things happen, first is slump then the boolit will get damaged more when it hits the cone and tries to pull the cylinder to alignment. You can wipe the edge off a Keith off on one side but of course slump will have removed it anyway. Slump will remove the grease grooves in the throats so there is no lube left for the bore. Lube and lead will exit the gap.
It does no good at all to shoot a boolit over throat. Best is .0005" under. Best throats will be .0015" over groove.145194 This is a 1 to 16 Keith recovered. It shows skid and the slump is a little off center. Where is the GG?
Very fast powders have instant pressure and can damage a boolit faster then a slow powder.
Over 61 years with revolvers has had me test things a million times. I have never in all these years told anyone they need a softer boolit to obturate.

[Piedmont]

I have NEVER been able to shoot soft lead from revolvers. You will have several things happen, first is slump then the boolit will get damaged more when it hits the cone and tries to pull the cylinder to alignment. You can wipe the edge off a Keith off on one side but of course slump will have removed it anyway. Slump will remove the grease grooves in the throats so there is no lube left for the bore. Lube and lead will exit the gap.
It does no good at all to shoot a boolit over throat. Best is .0005" under. Best throats will be .0015" over groove.145194 This is a 1 to 16 Keith recovered. It shows skid and the slump is a little off center. Where is the GG?
Very fast powders have instant pressure and can damage a boolit faster then a slow powder.
Over 61 years with revolvers has had me test things a million times. I have never in all these years told anyone they need a softer boolit to obturate.

I corrected you on that picture before and told you the complete story on the board here and gave the magazine issue and date, yet here you are again as if you never were corrected, just repeating the same BS.

For everyone else, that is not a 1-16 bullet.

[Char-Gar]

If the cast bullet is the same size as the cylinder throat and the cylinder throat is the same size barrel groove then there is no need for the bullets to obdurate and can be granite hard.

However if the bullets is not a perfect fit to the cylinder then obduration become an issue and alloy become an issue as well.

Now add lower pressure and velocity to the mix and again alloy hardess becomes a bigger issue.

As the pressures increase, the issue of bullet skid becomes greater and hence the need for alloy hardness to increase to compensate.

Back in the 50's and early 60's the Bullseye shooters used quite soft alloys (1-30 to 1-40) in their powder puff 38 Special and 45 ACP loads. Accuracy was outstanding, but again this is all about velocity, pressure and cylinder barrel dimensions. What works in one situation is not what works in all situations.

Back in the day when the 44 Magnum was new, both Keith and Ray Thompson tested various alloys and Keith found that an alloy of 1-16 was right for his plain base bullets and Thompson found that it took 1-20 or harder for his gas check bullets. These were full snort loads. Thompson was shooting over a big snow bank which allowed him to recover the bullets. Bullets softer than 1-20 "accordianed" or collapsed and Thompson through 1-20 was the minimum hardness and not the ideal or maximum.

Bear in mind that these were mid-50's Smith and Wesson with cylinder throats around .432 so obduration was an issue with the nominal .429 bullets they used. However, at full snort 44 magnum pressures No. 2 will obdurate.

When it comes to sixgun loads, there is no "stretch sock - one size fits all" alloy. Problems arise when folks try and assert that that is one magic alloy for all sixguns at all pressure levels. There is a place for a wide variety of alloy tempers in this sixgun game and what works best in one situation may not be best is another.

[44man]

I corrected you on that picture before and told you the complete story on the board here and gave the magazine issue and date, yet here you are again as if you never were corrected, just repeating the same BS.

For everyone else, that is not a 1-16 bullet.
He never really said but he did say it was too soft and I have seen the same with recovered 1 to 16 from my trap, perfect match. No I don't have the magazine any more but he was correct.
I have recovered thousands and thousands of boolits. 1 to 20 was worse. You should see pure lead. Even 50-50 does not retain shape unless oven hardened.
I have to compare by what I have recovered. Moot point anyway, do you deny boolits don't slump?
How many have you studied?
The only thing I am sorry about is I never took my own pictures ( No camera back then.) and melted all the boolits. I can only assure it was a perfect match.
I said before the picture was from the magazine and have no better to show what happens.

[Jeff Maney]

Another vote for the 429421. Works extremely well in all my .44s, Special or Magnum.
Another vote for the Lyman 429421! Cast from COWW with just a bit of tin. Shot many of these in my 6.5" 29 over 10.0 grains of Unique, sized 0.430", Blue Angle lube. Also load the same bullet over 20-21 grains of 2400 for hunting, just not as much fun to shoot!
Jeff

[44man]

If the cast bullet is the same size as the cylinder throat and the cylinder throat is the same size barrel groove then there is no need for the bullets to obdurate and can be granite hard.

However if the bullets is not a perfect fit to the cylinder then obduration become an issue and alloy become an issue as well.

Now add lower pressure and velocity to the mix and again alloy hardess becomes a bigger issue.

As the pressures increase, the issue of bullet skid becomes greater and hence the need for alloy hardness to increase to compensate.

Back in the 50's and early 60's the Bullseye shooters used quite soft alloys (1-30 to 1-40) in their powder puff 38 Special and 45 ACP loads. Accuracy was outstanding, but again this is all about velocity, pressure and cylinder barrel dimensions. What works in one situation is not what works in all situations.

Back in the day when the 44 Magnum was new, both Keith and Ray Thompson tested various alloys and Keith found that an alloy of 1-16 was right for his plain base bullets and Thompson found that it took 1-20 or harder for his gas check bullets. These were full snort loads. Thompson was shooting over a big snow bank which allowed him to recover the bullets. Bullets softer than 1-20 "accordianed" or collapsed and Thompson through 1-20 was the minimum hardness and not the ideal or maximum.

Bear in mind that these were mid-50's Smith and Wesson with cylinder throats around .432 so obduration was an issue with the nominal .429 bullets they used. However, at full snort 44 magnum pressures No. 2 will obdurate.

When it comes to sixgun loads, there is no "stretch sock - one size fits all" alloy. Problems arise when folks try and assert that that is one magic alloy for all sixguns at all pressure levels. There is a place for a wide variety of alloy tempers in this sixgun game and what works best in one situation may not be best is another.
I have found it is more important to fit groove or a little over so with my SBH with .430" groove and .4324" throats, .430" shoots fine. But going to .432" just works as good. Anything over is a waste of time and I have molds and size dies to .434". It gets worse.145197 This is a 22 BHN, .430" boolit at 200 yards.
It is a GC boolit so the question is, does the check expand to fill throats? I hardly think so. Recovered boolits still measure .430"
One important thing is recovered boolits must look and measure the same as cast except for rifling marks.
I shot the West Cleveland rifle and pistol club long, long ago, indoor range where all the police shot. They shot .38's with wad cutters and I cleaned most of their guns.
All had leaded frames and cylinder fronts let alone bores packed solid with lead. Worst job I ever had to remove lead from the OUTSIDES of guns without harming blueing.
NOBODY knows what Keith had with his alloy or what his fired boolits looked like. It has been reported he also used harder alloys.
Thompson made his boolits with a GC for the softer lead.
But the fact is, not a single person knows what Elmer had in the bores or what his fired boolits looked like. I can't fall for this because I tried it too many times. In 1956 I found harder was better.
In 79 or 80 I found what works in the revolver because of IHMSA. No revolver shooter EVER out shot my SBH. I still have it and is what I shot the 200 yard group with after over 79,000 heavy loads and uncounted wimp shots.
Then the net came with all the wrong stuff so I got busy testing more then ever. I found 99% of stuff is wrong. I shot 79 out of 80 IHMSA state, missed the last ram from being washed out. I had more revolver 40's then anyone. It was so bad, I had others complain so I was watched to see if I rested my gun on a boot top. NOT, so they cussed.
I shot 200 meter groups as good as the bolt gun shooters.
Now there are a few that call it BS.
It is OK, I always rub an expert wrong and Taffin hates my guts. 145202
Last two shots left for the .44 at 200 meters on a cardboard chicken. Open sights. 145203 International class production revolver state.
I just must be wrong!
I also won .22 state the same year with a new Ruger mark II with no sight settings. 57 out of 60 and all shoot off chickens at 100 yards. Cheap WW Wildcat rounds. Open sight production.

[Char-Gar]

I don't think John Taffin hates anybody's guts. He is a strong Christian man and that is not in his character. He may disagree strongly, but never hate.

I don't think anecdotal stories are convincing evidence, mine included. So, let just state our opinion and experience and let the readers makes up their mind.

[44man]

I don't think John Taffin hates anybody's guts. He is a strong Christian man and that is not in his character. He may disagree strongly, but never hate.

I don't think anecdotal stories are convincing evidence, mine included. So, let just state our opinion and experience and let the readers makes up their mind.
Maybe so but he sure attacked me. But he was not as bad as those that follow him. I could take Taffin's hand if he offered it.

[Blackwater]

Only the gun and load can be the final arbiter. But given that, the first place I'd look if it were me, is a Keith type bullet by Lyman, RCBS, Saeco or other producers. FWIW, I and a buddy both had Super Blackhawks, and I was shooting the Saeco #441 while he shot bullets from the Lyman Keith style mold. As luck had it, my gun shot my Saecos a little better than it did his Lymans, and vise versa. For once, things just worked out and no trade was necessary or desirable. The difference wasn't much, though. Maybe 1/8" at 25 yds. or so, in both guns, and both guns shot both bullets well enough for all but the most demanding shots we'd have ever taken with these bullets.

FWIW, if I had it to do all over again, I might well try the RCBS Bullet simply because many say they produce more reliable and dependable dimensions than Lyman does, and it's a little cheaper than the Saecos, usually. It'd be hard to go wrong with the Keith bullet in a .44. It might be beat in any given gun, but overall, it's proven itself across a very wide range of guns for an awful long time, and its design was originally intended for high performance, with so much lead sticking out the front end of the case, in order to make room for more powder when you want all the power you can get from the .44, and a somewhat lower trajectory at longer ranges. It tends to hold up well at long range, too, just like Elmer intended, and set out to design it to. That gets to be a LOT of fun, too, when you get your round tuit to do that sort of shooting with the big M29. And sooner or later, you WILL want to, I assure you. One tip: It'll keep you humble at first, but gets ever more intriguing as you find out how to hold much of your front sight to hold up at various ranges. And it'll amaze you at what CAN be done with it, too!

[Mal Paso]

There are a lot of votes for the Lyman 429421. The 2 recent Lyman 429421 4 cavity molds I bought were undersize and tapered with the rear band .002 to .003 larger than the front. If you can't find an OLD Lyman buy a mold from someone who cares about quality control like Accurate, M&P, and NOE.

RCBS might be in there but I can't imagine casting handgun bullets 2 at a time.

[44man]

I had the original but Lyman kept fooling with it. That was not the big problem. Square Lube groove or round, did not mean much but dimensions changed so as Lyman sharpened cherries you could get the wrong size.
Even today you can get a perfect one or one too small. It depends on production runs. RCBS is the same, hard to get one perfect for your gun. To get a mold cut with a new cherry is as good as it gets.
A custom cherry can set you back over $275. You do not waste them.
The ones I made cost me $.41 each before work.

[Echo]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.

Plus 1 - I cast the -421 boolit for my Son's 29. Max load of 22 grs 2400, std load of 8.1 grs Unique.

[S.B.]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.
I concur use this in most of my .44s.
Steve

[Char-Gar]

Last question from me.

If a M29 with 6" or 6,5" comes my way, it would be my choice, but they are very rare over here.
So it will be the M29 or the 629, I will see.

Is the .430" sizing gtg for both of them?


From the beginning of time until somewhere is the late 80s Smith and Wesson reamed their cylinder throats about .432 or smidge more. I purchased a 6.5 late 80s vintage 29 classic (heavy under lug barrel) and it has cylinder throats of .429. I sold it and in 1991 bought a new 629 5" again with the under lug barrel and it's cylinder throats were a spot on .430. It is the most accurate Smith and Wesson 44 Magnum I have ever owned. Most Smiths in the past 25 years have throats of about .430.

[Mal Paso]

Might be luck of the draw but the only two 629s from that era I pinned were .4285" to .429". Both cylinders throats varied .0005".

[MT Gianni]

Ok, thanks so far.

As I understand it right, all of you recommend a boolit round about the old EK design.

28 BHN is extremly tough I suppose?
28 bhn may or may not be tough, it is hard but do not confuse toughness, ductility, adhesion or malleability with hardness.

[44man]

28 bhn may or may not be tough, it is hard but do not confuse toughness, ductility, adhesion or malleability with hardness.
This is very true. More to do with alloys. I hate BHN readings as boolits can break while another the same is still ductile. My 50-50 oven hardened boolits can be 20 BHN but will deform and hold together like much softer alloys. My harder boolits are not like linotype or an alloy that will shatter.
We need a way to define hardness and toughness.
Like tool steel where the Rockwell test means little for an alloy. Some steels will hold to hundreds of thousands of pounds while another fails very soon and both have the same hardness.
I have worked with tool steels a long time and have made thousands of springs and tools. None have broken. Who cares about hardness?

[jayjay1]

Hello again Gentlemen,
after reading your comments about the hardness of .44 magnum, I´m honestly a bit confused.

First, I´m having some experience with the 9mm, the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP.
Because I´m prefering a bit heavier bullets, I never had a problem with the hardness, because of the lower velocities so.
I´m just mixing range scrap with some linotype, 5/1, which brings me a hardness of roundabout 12 BHN.
That worked for me in ten thousands of bullets in the calibers written above.

So let me please ask a question.
Why do the bullets for the .44 Magnum have to be so hard?
I have to say, that I surely will not drive them to the max, just for paper punching, no hunting or so.

Infos would be great.

[sw282]

l use a HG #503 KT .429 in my 629 Magnum Hunter..8.5gr Power Pistol. Strait WW and a dash of solder. Works well for me. After casting l just let them sit awhile. Sizing as l load seems to help my accuracy. Any ideas ??

282

[44man]

I water drop WW metal because it works. I get fliers with air cooled.
It also works in my larger bores with PB boolits. They are 20 to 22 BHN.
However, shooting Keith boolits with fast powders has given me a vast increase in accuracy when I went harder. Testing a whole range up gave me 50 yard groups that are better then 25 yards with softer. Fit is correct first and Unique, 231, etc, never showed a difference.
I also shoot for years without cleaning my bores, just the cylinders for new STP. My SBH is over 3 years since the bore was touched. I use Felix lube of course.
One of our great fellas here sent me some MML lube to test and it will actually out shoot Felix. I need to learn to make it. The difference a lube makes is astonishing to say the least. MML gave me groups with the .500 JRH you would think the gun was bolted down.

[S.B.]

Hello again Gentlemen,
after reading your comments about the hardness of .44 magnum, I´m honestly a bit confused.

First, I´m having some experience with the 9mm, the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP.
Because I´m prefering a bit heavier bullets, I never had a problem with the hardness, because of the lower velocities so.
I´m just mixing range scrap with some linotype, 5/1, which brings me a hardness of roundabout 12 BHN.
That worked for me in ten thousands of bullets in the calibers written above.

So let me please ask a question.
Why do the bullets for the .44 Magnum have to be so hard?
I have to say, that I surely will not drive them to the max, just for paper punching, no hunting or so.

Infos would be great.

Just cast your bullets as you see fit, then, if you have problems(doesn't sound like you've had any in the past?) ask a questions here. Have fun with this hobby and use care to be careful.
Steve
Steve

[jayjay1]

@Steve:
That sounds like a very good advice!

Thank you.

An old reloader over here, who is somewhat guilty that I began this stuff, was always saying:
"Versuch, macht kluch!"

What means in English:
"Trying makes you wiser!"

But the German version is a rhyme.
:drinks:

[Frank V]

jayjay1

I don't think you have to cast bullets really hard for your .44. I've used wheel weights for years without any trouble.
I think the alloy you ask about will be fine for your purpose of practice & sport shooting. Heck I load to about 900fps & don't have any trouble. I'd just load some & shoot them, if you don't get leading (& I don't think you will) you are good to go.

[Petrol & Powder]

From post #46:
"...So let me please ask a question.
Why do the bullets for the .44 Magnum have to be so hard?..."

Simple answer is: THEY DON'T NEED TO BE SO HARD.

I agree with Steve

[csatrustburg]

I have been loading with the rcbs 250 Kt I have been trying tight group h110 2400 and universal clays best group has been with 10 grains of tight group! I have had many questions for the 44 mag through this but mostly just reading 44 mans posts. I am running Ben's red sizing to 431 straight ww air cooled for a couple weeks. I am shooting mine in a 7.5 redhawk 2400 loads have been from 17.5 to 21.5 h110 21 to 23.5 best groups on those were @4 inches at thirty yards? I am down to one hand this year so its going to be my deer gun any suggestions on tightening the groups up? Just use the tight group it works in all my handguns.

[Blackwater]

Well, I too have always used AC WW's, simply because that's what I had and found most convenient to use. However, when 44man speaks, I listen. I've done enough A-B type testing to confirm that the little things DO often matter, just as he noted that, at least in his guns, MML had proven spectacular for his loads when compared to Felix lube. Don't be too quick to disagree with his posts, because he's done the hard work and invested the time, and he's FAR from the only one who's experienced similar results. Whether the same will work in your or my guns or not remains to be seen unless and until we TRY them. And too, since we're going to spend the time anyway, it really takes very little extra to do the type things he's done to gain the EXPERIENCE that he has. He's earned it all!

And the fact that he's repeatedly indicated that his search for accuracy has been for a MUCH greater degree of it than most of us more ordinary shooters. If we're satisfied with what we're doing, there's no need to change, of course, but a little experimenting probably wouldn't hurt ANY of us. Opinions just don't weigh as heavily as clear cut A-B results.

His experience is invaluable to all of us here, and it'd be good if we listened to his results. If his degree of required accuracy is beyond that of anyone here doesn't mean much, really. I found his note about BHN's not determining the toughness, malleability and expansion potential of any given alloy most in accord with my own prior experience with HP's. It's truly amazing how much the "little things" really CAN matter in our guns, IF we'll but just try them.

[Frank V]

Looking back to the mid 1800s most of the .45 Colt bullets were very soft almost pure lead. The old BP loads were in the high 800s to mid 900s, some even say 1000 in a 7-1/2"bbl. They bumped up to fill the bbl. & were lubed with a proper BP lube. I've shot some BOP loads & experienced no leading & pretty good accuracy too. I don't think we need to go really hard for mid loads.

[44man]

Thanks, it is true you need to experiment.
I thought I was a great shot with my Rugers long ago. A friend had me go watch an IHMSA shoot and I HAD to do it. I found I sucked BIG time and even the best revolver shooters were cussing on the line. Everyone was using the 4227's so I went that way. In practice to get settings I had 3" groups at 200 meters but soon found the powders HATE heat in the gun. I went to 296 and right off I was winning but still not happy. I experimented with primers, cut groups by 2/3's with the Fed 150. I still will not load a mag primer in the .44. I figured out why.
Then I found the tension problems and had BR collar dies made, better but a pain to use. Then I tried Hornady dies and things fell into place. Things progressed to lubes and the affect they have. My best 200 yard group is 1-5/16". Red dot from Creedmore.
Then I learned what a boolit must be and made my own molds, most PB and applied what I found to the larger calibers and have made revolvers shoot many 1/2" groups at 100. Every thing I learned with jacketed was applied to cast. I have made cast out shoot jacketed.
I am at the one load, mundane casting and loading part. There is just nothing more to be done.
I have spent years trying to get stuff out to make everyone better. Has to be the hardest thing I ever set out to do. Resistance has been so bad I have been booted from many sites.
Slowly some test and find out so my advise is never be satisfied and keep working at it. You really CAN make a revolver out shoot most rifles.
Don't show me a 2", 25 yard group. You have stopped too short, you should have one hole.
Sit at the bench and think more.
The worst thing ever is we live so far apart. If I set you at my bench and you shoot one of my revolvers, you will go home and say "Did I really do that?"
How you load is where it is, not you or the gun. Most of you are excellent shots. My friend Scott bought a new Ruger Hunter in .44, I did the trigger first and then mounted his Ultra Dot. We took my loads down to sight it. I made him do it. Every single group at 50 yards was less then 1/2" until we got it sighted. He went deer hunting and just shot his deer in the neck. Guess what load he shoots?
None of my revolvers are shot at 25. We go to shoot and I set little bottles of water at 100 or a black walnut or 1" stone. Some targets so small they can't be seen. Try that with an 06!

[Frank V]

It is true most revolvers will shoot a lot better than most people believe. I've proved time & again that even the 1-7/8" J frames will shoot better at 25 yards than most will believe. Bob Munden is filmed hitting a 6" balloon offhand at 100yds with a S&W J fame.
Thanks.

[44man]

The best was Jerry hitting steel at 1000 yards, off hand. He has titanium bones!
I wiggle so much now I would need a plate as big as a battle ship! :bigsmyl2:
Short barrels can be very accurate as long as spin is reached, takes smaller cases with faster powders. It is the huge calibers in short barrels that gets tough. There is a point you can't utilize the powder capacity.
I buy the big ones for hunting and accuracy so I just can't picture using Unique in a .500 since I want to shoot to potential.
There is also too large like the .500 S&W, for what I do. I would say the JRH has to be the best .500 ever designed and a 6" barrel can handle it, I still went 7-1/2" with mine.
The .454 needs barrel length so when you buy a 2" to 4", you will NEVER make it shoot and just get more recoil, noise and fireballs. Better for short is the .45 Colt.

[S.B.]

44man, my ignorance is kicking in, just what is the JRH 500(a lot of internet talk but, not much anyone can verify?) and how does it compare to the S&W 500 cartridge? Also, what's your opinion of the Freedom's 500 Wyoming Express gun and cartridge?
Steve

[4719dave]

ditto I wish I had the hp mold ..
Mihec's (#503 ?)- 432-256 Brass ... It may be the last 44 mold you will ever buy because you won't need another one. It makes the best boolits you can imagine for the Forty Four. Just simply amazing.
Plain base Keith

[44man]

44man, my ignorance is kicking in, just what is the JRH 500(a lot of internet talk but, not much anyone can verify?) and how does it compare to the S&W 500 cartridge? Also, what's your opinion of the Freedom's 500 Wyoming Express gun and cartridge?
Steve
The JRH is a shortened .500 S&W case. Developed by jack Huntington to work in shorter cylinders. I just use Hornady .500 S&W dies to load.
I never shot the Wyoming Express but understand you need special brass. Dies are more expensive too. The case is belted but the JRH with a 440 gr can exceed velocities with the velocity at 1350 fps. That was taken with a 6" barrel BFR and mine is 7-1/2" so might be a tad more.
I think you can get a Freedom in the JRH but rim size is a problem as is boolit length. The Wyoming belt was used so they could reduce rim diameter. Even then boolit length is restricted to fit the short cylinder.
Get a BFR, the same steel is used. Carpenter steels.

[jayjay1]

The best was Jerry hitting steel at 1000 yards, off hand. He has titanium bones!


I love Jerry, but never believed that.

Have shot 800 yds prone with a 22" barrel in 308 and a scope which was magnified 24x.
That was hard enough.

[44man]

I have trouble seeing water bottles at 100 if it is shady, imagine a target at 1000? How in the world does he stop the shaking? I would paint a mountain!
My saving grace is the sandbags and can't hold good from Creedmore anymore, let alone get back up off the ground. I AM rusting away!

[Southerngunner]

The old Lyman 429421 is the old Keith design and is as good as any and better than most. There are a number of slight variations and clones out there and most will work just fine.

The 44 Magnum is a round that just wants to please and it is easy to find an accurate load. For punching holes in paper, there is no sense in full snort magnum loads. 6.5 grains of Bulleye, or 8 grains of Unique will give you good accuracy, moderate recoil and still be a field capable load. For powder puff loads on paper, Keith recommend his bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye and it works very well.

Avoid rock hard or water dropped alloys. ACWW or softer will do just fine for this work. In a Smith and Wesson size your bullets .430 with any decent bullet lube.

Mr. Keith had it right I have an old ideal 429421 with the hollow point pin as well as a couple lyman versions of the same bullet with the big square lube groves that Elmer preferred .I mainly shoot 44 specials with the old Skeeter Skelton load of 7.5 unique or for a light load I go down to 6.0 and both are very accurate. I have noticed that many of the new mold makers are cloning the Keith bullet so it is much easier to get a good version than it used to be.

[Taylor]

Lyman 429421 50yds (scoped)

146974

[jeepyj]

Marked for referance for when I get to work to do some printing for some load comparisons.
jeepyj

[jayjay1]

Lyman 429421

That´s what I ordered in the end.
[smilie=w:

Am waiting for delivery.
:cry:

[flint45]

429421's always work good for me.