First frontstuffer, what do I need?

[Cowboy_Dan]

I recently purchased my first muzzleloader from a member here. A Jukar Spanish 45 Kentucky long rifle clone. It hasn't arrived yet, but as far as I know, all that will be in the box is the rifle/ramrod and some round balls of proper diameter. I'm not positive what I am going to need in addition to this. How does this list look? And where is a good place to look for this stuff?

1. More knowledge!
2. Powder
3. Patches for balls
4. Lube of some sort? For the patches?
5. Something to keep the lube above seperate from the powder?
6. Percussion caps
7. A short starter may be nice
8. Something to measure the powder
9. Stuck ball remover will eventually be needed
10. More balls

For powder, is real black required, or can I go with a substitute? I'm not sure about the lube, but I plan to shoot patched round balls to start off, but may want to try a Minne or something.

And before anyone says it, I need to educate myself some more on the subject.

[dromia]

I would add patience to the list, the rewards of muzzleloading can be greatly enhanced with patience.

I use Youngs 303 water soluble oil into Aquoil for lubing my patches which are only just perceptibly damp, I use the same patches for wiping tween shots when I can.

As the patches are hardly damp I don't use anything 'tween that and the powder when shooting as soon as loaded. If I was carrying it in the filed for a while then I may think about adding a veg wad.

WD40 is useful for removing any moisture.

A good water based solvent for cleaning, I use C2R which also removes fixed carbon especially at the breech end.

Here is a link to my cleaning regime which works for me: http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22520

I don't use the gun's ramrods preferring to use the Pro Shot BP rods and their jags for loading and cleaning.

I like those CO2 bullet removers available form bicycle shops, they are also handy for cleaning out blocked nipples, lost patches and the like.

Like all things in life if you don't have one then you will need it regularly, once you do have it, it will lie unused.

[Sasquatch-1]

I found that using Pyrodex in my Cap Lock works fine. As far as lube goes I use straight Crisco on a 100% cotton fabric. My wife sews so there is always plenty. You do not need to have the patches precut. You can lube a piece of fabric then place the ball over the fabric and seat to the edge of the barrel. Take a knife and cut off the excess and then drive it home. You will definitely need the short starter. A powder flask of some sort with an adjustable measure and a capper is always nice.

I do not hunt with my muzzle loaders and only shoot at the range. Therefore I do not worry about contaminating the powder with the lube.

If you know some one near you who shoots muzzle loaders have them show you the intricacies of the first shot with a cleaned and oiled gun.

[Dryball]

The first thing you need is to remember 3 simple words...Powder-Patch-Ball. Lol...look at my tag and ask me how I know.

[Southron]

Shooting black powder firearms takes not only more patience but also more discipline than shooting modern firearms.

To start with, a change in federal regulations years ago made it more difficult for dealers to stock REAL black powder, paving the way for the development of many "substitute" black powders. The real reason for the substitutes is that they have a Higher Ignition Temperature than real black powder, therefore the government figures that they are safer for dealers to stock. The "down" side is that substitute black powders will cause more mis-fires, simply because they have a higher ignition temperature.

To get around this possible problem, always make sure that the vent from your nipple down into the breech of your rifle is clear. Clean it out whenever you clean your rifle after EVEY shooting session. [That is where the discipline comes in, you must clean without fail as soon as possible after shooting it, as letting a rifle sit even overnight without cleaning can lead to the beginning of rust in your bore.

Now, how that the federal regulations affects you is that you can still get REAL black powder, either by ordering it from dealers on-line:

http://www.blackpowderva.com/

OR finding a dealer who keeps it in stock. Usually Bass Pro Shops keep it. The trick is that they do not display it. You have to go to gun counter and ask for it.

Ask for FFFg as that is best for your .45 Caliber Rifle. You can use FFg, but that will foul your bore more and will require more powder per shot for the same velocities as FFFg. Do not get FFFFg as it is used only for priming the pan in flintlocks.

A few more tips:

When re-loading after a firing a shot, LEAVE THE HAMMER DOWN ON THE FIRED PERCUSSION CAP. You re-load and then take off the old, spent cap. Why? If you pull off the fired percussion cap first, before re-loading, you open the vent to leave it free for air to enter through the nipple, get into the breech and possibly keep a spark alive that will cause a Cook-Off when you reload.

So...keep that hammer down on that fired percussion cap while re-loading.

Never, never, never re-load directly from a powder horn or powder flask...because, if you do have a Cook-Off, then you will be holding an exploding grenade in your hand when it goes off. ALWAYS re-load from a powder measure that holds just the charge for the next shot OR a cartridge.

When re-loading Never, Never, Never point the muzzle at any part of your body, always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Whenever possible, use just two fingers on the ramrod.

Cook-Offs are very rare, but they do happen. If you follow the safety procedures, IF you ever have one, you will probably just have some singed fingers.

Get yourself a nipple wrench. It is a good idea to remove the nipple when cleaning the rifle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE after every shooting session. Clean he black powder fouling off the threads of the nipple and down in the bolster and the coat the nipple threads with Anti-Seize Grease.

All muzzle loaders are "individual" and you will find that there is a particular combination of powder charge, patch thickness and ball diameter that provides your best accuracy. Generally muzzle loaders shoot best (provide the best accuracy) with a "moderate" powder charge.

Of course, always wear hearing protection and safety glasses when shooting. Make sure you percussion caps are always seated fully on the nipple. If not fully seated, they can "frag" when the rifle is fired.

Dromia gave you some very good advice when he recommended you get a CO2 Bullet Remover. What happens from time to time is you will load a ball with out a powder charge or the oil in your breech will kill the powder.

At times like that, all you have to do IF you have a CO2 Bullet Remover is to put the nozzle over your nipple and let a blast of CO2 into your barrel to blow out the stuck ball, patch and the powder charge. That beats the heck out of using a ball puller or removing the breech plug to get the ball out of your barrel.

Of course, IF you walk into a bicycle shop and ask for a "Bullet Remover," they won't know what you are talking about. I think they use the CO2 gadgets to inflate bicycle tires, but am not sure.

Anyway, GOOD LUCK

Three good sources of supplies for shooting muzzloaders are:

http://www.ssfirearms.com/default.asp

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?osCsid=php30f9llem32v7oksssunmcd0

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

Three good sources of s

[pietro]

I recently purchased my first muzzleloader from a member here. A Jukar Spanish 45 Kentucky long rifle clone. It hasn't arrived yet, but as far as I know, all that will be in the box is the rifle/ramrod and some round balls of proper diameter. I'm not positive what I am going to need in addition to this. How does this list look? And where is a good place to look for this stuff?

1. More knowledge! - There's good stuff posted above.

2. Powder - FFFG Holy Black or a "rifle" grade synthetic (Pyrodex, etc)

3. Patches for balls - Striped pillow ticking fabric from most any fabric shop or WallyWorld, washed to removed any sizing.

4. Lube of some sort? For the patches ?
ALWAYS use a lubricant (grease) for both lead conicals/Minie boolits (grease grooved) and fabric patches (even spit will work on a patch).

5. Something to keep the lube above seperate from the powder ? - Usually un-necessary.

6. Percussion caps - #11 size.[b]

7. A short starter may be nice [B]- Not only nice, but necessary, since both conicals & PRB's need solid contact in the rifling (aka: a hard press fit).

8. Something to measure the powder
Both BP & substitutes should be measured by volume, not weight (an adjustable powder measure/dipper works best)

9. Stuck ball remover will eventually be needed
A load-pulling screw (there are separate designs for a patch and for a conical) accessory for the ramrod usually suffices.

10. More balls - Track of the Wolf is one of the best websites for buying tools/accessories/RB's/conicals & more.

For powder, is real black required, or can I go with a substitute ? - Either/or

I'm not sure about the lube
Crisco cooking lard for cloth patches & TC/Ox-Yoke Bore Butter 1000+ are good starting points, until you develop your preferences.

I plan to shoot patched round balls to start off, but may want to try a Minne or something.

And before anyone says it, I need to educate myself some more on the subject. - Good move !






You should also consider obtaining/using a ramrod extension for cleaning and to give your hand a better purchase on the RR when pulling a load.



The fun comes free ! :bigsmyl2:



.

[lobogunleather]

Assuming the rifle you have purchased is used I recommend a thorough disassembly, inspection, and cleaning before you do anything else. Lots of information available on cleaning black powder rifles, but keeping it simple is usually best. I use a 1-gallon steel bucket half full with very hot water and a little liquid dishwashing detergent (Dawn brand, but I doubt it makes much difference). Remove the nipple, place the breech end of the barrel down in the soapy water, run the cleaning rod with moderately tight cloth patch back and forth drawing the soapy water into the barrel repeatedly. Remove from the water and the hot water should evaporate right away. Several dry patches run through the barrel should complete the cleaning. Lightly oil inside and out. Replace nipple. Reassemble rifle.

If the bore of your rifle is heavily fouled or rusty you can take a worn bore brush, wrap it with stands of 0000 steel wool, and scrub the bore with that. This will remove most heavy fouling and light rust quickly. Follow that up with the usual cleaning.

Before shooting wipe the bore with a dry patch or two to remove residual oil. Fire off a cap or two to clear the nipple and drum before proceeding with a loaded round.

Basic tools: SAFETY GLASSES--ALWAYS. Nipple wrench, ramrod with worm and ball jag, powder measure, a ball starter is handy.

Basic supplies: Balls, about 0.010" below bore diameter (not groove diameter), for .45 caliber this usually means a 0.440" ball. Patches, can be made from old flannel shirt or just about any cotton cloth (no synthetics), you will learn what thickness works best with your rifle. Patch lube (I use Crisco cooking oil, just dampened). Powder (for .45 caliber Fffg black powder would be best, Pyrodex P is okay).

Black powder is usually measured, not weighed. A good powder measure will be accurate enough. Starting load should be about 40 grains Fffg (Pyrodex P requires 10% weight reduction from BP charges, but uses the same measure setting), not much to be gained by loading more than about 60 grains. Load from a closed spout or by hand. Place patch material over bore, start ball into bore with the starter. Use ramrod to drive patched ball firmly down on the powder charge (no air space allowed). Long steady stroke is best; try not to pound the ball down. Cap the nipple, ready to fire. I can usually shoot about a dozen shots before fouling makes loading difficult, then swab the bore to clear out accumulated gunk.

When you have settled on the load you want to use you can put a mark on your ramrod to show when the ball is fully and properly seated. This removes any doubt. You can also use that marked rod to be able to tell easily whether or not a load remains in the barrel, in the event of any question. A second mark can be made to show when the rod goes all the way to the breech end without a load in place; handy for safety.

The Crisco cooking oil provides good lubrication and helps keep powder fouling soft, makes loading subsequent shots easier, makes cleaning easier. I just dampen the patches, not dripping wet.

After shooting I like to swab my bore with GI surplus bore solvent, leave it wet to make later cleaning much easier.

I took a piece of 1/2" PVC tubing with matching caps and made up a dozen tubes for my powder charges. Easy to carry in a pocket or pouch. Premeasured charges ready to go for range or field.

[snapshot]

when it comes to cleaners and lubes they're are as many on the market as opinions and most will work well but just keep it simple, just plain water will clean your bbl, and spit for the patch or maybe if ya want to use something else a WSO or unsalted lard will work the biggest thing is when in doubt ask there are plenty here who are willing to help, good luck to ya and keep your powder dry.

[OverMax]

A bottle of this dual purpose liquid. Can use it as a patch lube year round and as a barrel cleaner after your shooting session. (Shenandoah Valley Patch Lubricant & Bore Cleaner.) Use it sparingly though. A little goes a long ways as a patch lube.
If inclined to use a soft greasy type of patch lube. OxYoke Wonder Lube.

[Southron]

Another option to make re-loading much faster and safer ios to use Quick Charge plastic cartridge tubes from The Winchester Sutler.

Just order the tubes in the caliber of your rifle. Load them with powder at home and close the end by inserting a ball...thats it!

At the range, pop out the ball, pour the powder down your barrel and then patch and load your ball.

The Quick Charge Tubes can be used over and over. When they get dirty just throw them in your clothes washing machine and wash them. Set them in the sun to dry and they are as "good as new." Can be used over and over.

http://winchestersutler.com/ShotLoad.html#QCTube

[mooman76]

All good info here. Get a book on BP and read it. Bass Pros, Cabelas or Sportsmans warehouse are good places too look. Never try to fire out a ball that isn't all the way down on the powder. Either pull it back out or work it till you get it all the way down. If you don't have the Co2 discharger you can remove the nipple and put a pinch of powder in and it will shoot the ball out. Remember to have fun but safety first.

[oldracer]

Here are some hints I got from my mentor when starting with black powder, cartridges at first and now only muzzle loaders.
- Try to find some folks to shoot with that know what they are doing and are low key. Be very leery of those that say "this is the only way....."
- Use only black powder, the substitutes are not as much fun and in some places when you decide to do some matches you will not be able to use it.
- Get a CO2 charger, several patch screws and several cleaning rods, not the wooden one with the gun.
- Mark the rods with tape so you'll know when they are on the very bottom of the barrel.
- Practice a set of steps so you will not miss things. Never leave the gun charged during a cease fire and most of the folks I shoot with leave their cleaning rod in the gun so they can see the tape level.
- Shoot several caps with the muzzle just off the ground to make sure the dust blows away and shows the nipple is clear.
- Store the gun muzzle down so the oil does not plug up the fire channel and nipple.
- Start with the manufacturer's load recommendations for powder load, patch thickness and ball diameter.
- Try wiping between shots and not wiping, some folks do a whole match w/o a barrel wipe down? I wipe between shots...one wet one dry.
- As already noted, powder, patch then ball. I precut my own patches from pillow ticking, some use commercial, some use linen. Some use a lube such as Bore Butter on their patches and some use spit. Decide what works best in your gun.
- I'd suggest a rubber mallet to tap the ball starter with, one of those brass powder holders with the lever to load the preset measure and one of the measures with the little funnel so that powder will not be spilled.

Have fun!

[waksupi]

If you have to use a short starter, your load is too tight.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Thanks for the replies everyone. A lot of things to think about. It's funny how you don't know how much you don't know until you ask.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

144993
144994

[mooman76]

Allot of things can be made by you or you may already have. That's one of the good things about this sport.

[Gtek]

One must be aware of the potato chip effect, try stopping after just one.

[smoked turkey]

As you can see from the list above it takes an awful lot of stuff to go with you when you shoot your ML. I see in the picture above a "possibles" bag to hold all the items. I found an old leather purse with a long strap at a yard sale for a buck that does not look so much like a purse as it does a possibles bag. I use that or sometimes I use a fanny pack. You do need somewhere to put all your stuff. I recommend you take along any tools you might need to break the gun down for cleaning later on. I have a little device that came from TC that has a nipple clearing pick on one end and an oblong slot in the other end for prying off a stubborn cap that is stuck on the nipple. That happens ever so often and when you need one you need one. I also like to use separate rod for cleaning later on. I use plain old dish soap and warm water and with a cap lock it is easier for me to clean as I submerge the breech into the water and use the rod and a tight fitting patch to draw the water up into the barrel. I follow this up with a rinse with no soap. I will usually run patches through it the next day to be sure it is clean. Be sure and clean good around the nipple as that area will corrode if not cleaned at time of barrel cleaning. Good shooting and be safe. It is more work for me than smokeless but more fun I think.

[Boogieman]

The Jukar is not a hooked breached rifle. Putting the breach in a bucket of water to clean it would be impractical . Get a piece of clear plastic tubing that fits tight on the nipple and an empty gallon can, put hot soapy water in the can wet a patch and run it down the bore it will pull the water into the barrel pump it in and out till the barrel gets hot repeat with clear water. Dry and oil

[Boogieman]

If you have to use a short starter, your load is too tight.
I have to use a shot starter to load from a loading block My starter has a powder measure drilled in one end which also works as a palm saver when I have to use the wooden ramrod. Using a ball block and horn is faster for me than speed loaders.

[hornady308]

I have the same .45 rifle, so I'll give you a few tips I've learned over the years:
- buy a range rod. This is just a longer than original rod that is used at the range. It is made of plastic or fiberglass (unbreakable), and is overly long so you can really get a grip on it. Wooden ramrods tend to break and can then spear your hand.
- buy a patch puller and a ball puller. You'll need them.
- use 3f powder due to the shape of the ignition channel, especially if using a synthetic powder like pyrodex.
- I clean my muzzleloaders with soapy water. It's an idea that has worked for a few hundred years. For this type of rifle, just remove the nipple, plug the hole, then pour some hot soapy water down the barrel. Let sit for a couple of minutes, then dump and repeat. Swab with patches and brush in between. You should be able to clean and oil your gun in 15 minutes.
- Your barrel is most likely 1 in 48 twist. Mine has that twist rate and it is reasonably accurate with 225 to 245 grain maxi balls. If you are going to hunt with your rifle, a 245 maxi should do the trick.

[OnHoPr]

This little item stays in my pocket while hunting, Traditions 5-in-1 Loader A1316. One reach in the pocket and you have projectile and/or sabot combo, primer, powder, starter. It can be relatively fast for the field and the powder measure works well at the bench if you trickle smoothly from your flask. You need a slightly folded piece of electric tape to hold in the cap/primer. I had troubles with the ball puller, I would just take the nipple off and put a few grains of powder in that hole then put the nipple back on with a cap and fire it at about 50 fps out the barrel. YEA, I know you're suppose to put the powder in first, but they do make ball pullers for the masses. Oh, I know my powder must of got wet.[smilie=s:

Oh, in addition how about a four legged critter 100 lbs or better standing broadside at 50 yds waiting to gets its picture taken.

[hornady308]

I just looked over my notes and they show that I have nice accuracy with a .440 round ball with 65 grains of fffg Goex and a .015 patch. I kept a target that had a 1.25" group at 75 yards. I figure that load is good for whitet tail at that distance. My notes show that I use the same charge with 225gr Maxi balls. They aren't quite as accurate, but still minute of deer at 75 yards.

[Whiterabbit]

If you have to use a short starter, your load is too tight.

Probably, but I like it when I connect on steel at 100 yards every single time, and then shoot better groups at 50 yards standing offhand than the guys next to me shooting muzzle braked AR-15's with scopes :)

[Whiterabbit]

It is more work for me than smokeless but more fun I think.

Yep. Of course, it sure seems like LESS work when you make the steel ding more than the guy next to you, even though he has a cartridge shooting repeater!

:)

[rfd]

KISS works best with traditional muzzleloaders.

on a slightly unusual offshore rifle such as the "spanish kentucky" i'd slug the barrel to find out the true bore size first and foremost. if the bore truly is .450", get you a .440" mold (lee double, cheap and works great), a tub of dixie gun works sheep tallow, some old cotton material (flannel shirts are good candidates), a small knife to cut the patch strip at the muzzle, some 3f powder (goex, etc - 55 to 65 grains down the tube, a few grains in the pan), some good spare flints, and yer pretty much good to go. now to learn just how to load, shoot and clean the rifle ..... ain't all that hard.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Thanks again everyone. I measured the twist rate when it arrived, appears to be 1 in 48". So I definately will try some conicals in it. Still need to find powder, but I think I have everything else. Haven't found real black of any type, and all local substitute is 2F rather than 3F.

Someone above suggested that I slug the bore, what is the best way to accomplish this without removing the breach plug?

[mooman76]

2f will work. 3f might be better but 2 f is still good. I wouldn't bother slugging the barrel but that's me. I have quite a few and haven't done one yet. .440 balls will work when you find a patch thickness combo. If you have to go real thick you can move up to a bigger ball like .445. Easies way to slug is with a ball larger than your bore size like a pistol size .454 or .457. You will need a heavy steel or brass rod that will fit in your barrel. Wrap it in a good tape so it doesn't damage your bore. Oil your bore first, then drop the wrapped rod in the bore. Drive the slug in a little ways like 1". Now use the weight of the rod to drive it back out.

[Sasquatch-1]

Check your area for re-enactment groups such as the North South Skirmish Association or a trapper Rendezvous group. Civil War re-enactors might be the most common. They should be able to tell you where to get the good stuff. I don't know if this guy ships but he does sell and is just outside Washingto D. C.: Back Creek Gun Shop http://www.blackpowderva.com/



Still need to find powder, but I think I have everything else. Haven't found real black of any type, and all local substitute is 2F rather than 3F.