Gold

[mold maker]

[smilie=s: $1130.70/oz T today. lowest since Aug "09. It's been falling for several weeks. Might be time to move some assets for long term hedge.

[rancher1913]

IF you have extra funds, mighty big if, food and shelter comes first, it never hurts to have some gold or silver to hedge your bets. the big guy's are playing games and sooner or later gold and silver could pay your taxs.

[BrassMagnet]

More than 90% of the gold for sale is "paper gold."
China has a thriving business counterfeiting gold and silver coins. If you buy silver dollars on FleaBay, expect them to be a nickel alloy rather than silver with the correct dimensions and weight.

Be wary!

[MaryB]

Buy from a reputable dealer, Apmex, Gainsville coins are 2 that come to mind. 90% silver dimes are not being counterfeited yet... I prefer 90% US silver coins for my collecting but I do have a few 1/10oz gold eagles also.

Take possession of whatever you buy! If you buy paper shares you will have just that when you want to cash out, paper. Paper that will have lost a lot of value. If you trust someone to store physical metals for you they may sell them out from under you leaving you holding the bag...

[snuffy]

It's bad enough I have to endure those stupid gold commercials on TV, now I have to get irate because they're on here? Willy Weethervane and his multi-million dollar "Buy My Gold" commercials have me grabbing the remote to shut him off.

That other idiot says I have to have gold in my "PORTFOLIO." I grab my empty wallet to show that fool my portfolio.

I'd dearly love to have and hold one of those gold coins on those commercials, sadly I don't have a couple thousand bucks it would take to get ONE! I'd much rather have what that money could buy in guns.

[Digger]

Heck, it's a lot more fun going out and finding it ! ...

[missionary5155]

Greetings
If you bought gold when it was $300 or less an ounce and did not play with them you did good.
If you bought a Winchester or Colt back the same time and did not play with them you did good.
Paper is good for just a few things I can think of. Read, draw on, start a fire and then the trip out back down the lonely path.
Mike in Peru

[Hardcast416taylor]

Gold, gold, gold HMMMM I seem to recall I seen that stuff once when I put a ring of it on my Frau`s ring finger. People say to buy now and buy all you can get! I`m lucky I can pay the utilities each month and afford to buy a few groceries and all my meds let alone someone telling me to buy gold on a retirees pension.Robert

[jmort]

The "They" have manipulated the commodities markets and held gold/silver down. Long term I would love to sit on some gold and silver, but silver has been a bitter mistress for me for the past few years.

[RayinNH]

Invest in lead, the other precious metal. When the excrement hits the fan lead will be worth more than gold.

[bangerjim]

I buy pre 1934 $20 pieces from ONLY local reputable gold & coin dealer's .......never from evilbay or on-line. EVER!!!!!!!! They are officially ranked graded and sealed in a well marked plastic housing so the gold AND coin price is firmly established. They cost a lot more that spot, but have collectable as well as metal value.

Beware of fakes. And a bar or hunk of gold or silver is just a good door stop.

You need to do research. A LOT of it. Find a local reputable dealer. AND......you will NEVER EVER buy any gold at the spot market price you see on the financial tickers! If you do, it is probably fake stuff. Darned good fakes out there. Would fool most people.


Lead is a good niche investment....sort of.....for this relative small group of people. But the last time I tired I sure could not hold $20K of lead in my hands!!! :veryconfu

banger

[dtknowles]

More than 90% of the gold for sale is "paper gold."
China has a thriving business counterfeiting gold and silver coins. If you buy silver dollars on FleaBay, expect them to be a nickel alloy rather than silver with the correct dimensions and weight.

Be wary!

How can they be the right dimensions and not come up short on weight, do you know the allow because nickel is much less dense than silver.

Tim

[sparky45]

I've been lucky enough to have used a tax return refund (my fault, I simply over paid my taxes) to buy from Lear Capital in quantities that got a bit of a volume price break. I bought silver bullion coins for spot + 1.5%. Not a great lot, but a few hundred ounces. At present I'm down 10% on my investment, but as everyone always says "it's only a loss on paper".:bigsmyl2:

[mold maker]

I didn't mean to upset anyone with a report on low price of gold. I totally understand some have a choice of gold or food, and I'd make the same choice.
There obviously are some here who can afford, and have some expensive guns. These same folks can afford a few pieces of gold. I couldn't afford it, but sacrificed in order to get a few pieces, just like several guns I didn't need.
Most who have wives, have done the same, to get a pretty rock, for SWMBO, and I'll bet it's set in a tiny gold band. Nothing wrong with that, but the price of that tiny rock is a very closely regulated commodity, controlled by a very small group. It's all controlled by big money, just like gold.
Right now the banks aren't giving squat on small investments. It's only my opinion, and definitely not a recommendation for those who can't afford it, but gold is trading at the lowest price in 7 years. Can you name anything else that can be bought at 7 yr old prices, with a very high probability of future added value, for eternity?
Have you ever heard of an anti gold movement. As a long term investment, would you rather hold and protect, $1133.70 (2.15 tons) of lead, or an oz of gold? If it doubled in price, which would you rather carry to sell?
Yes it is lots more fun to prospect, and find it for free. Twenty years ago there were few water ways in NC, SC, and Ga that hadn't had my foot prints. While I never struck it rich, I was almost always successful in the hunt. I have sold/traded gold for guns. I have had jewelry made from my gold, and with stones I found and faceted.
It isn't for everyone, but neither are guns. To each his own.

[bob208]

so I wonder how the people that bought when it was $1500 an oz. thinking that they had a hedge feel?

[mold maker]

They feel like they lost money for the time being. That's why its not a get rich quick scheme.
Ask me how I feel about the 1 oz coins I bought at $421/oz, or the 5/8 oz nugget I found in Ga.

[bangerjim]

so I wonder how the people that bought when it was $1500 an oz. thinking that they had a hedge feel?


I would have advised them to NOT buy at that inflated price! But just like stocks, hold on to it, it will come back!

I bought most of my gold (and silver) at MUCH lower prices that even the "low" of today. But being in $20 St. Gaudens pre-1934 certified gold coins, it remains much more valuable than just a hunk of bullion. I do NOT recommend buying bullion, in any form (coins or bars). Same for silver. Remember......pre-1934 coinage is NOT confiscatable by the government and most dealers handle the transaction different than bullion. Even OLD solid silver half dollars are worth more than just bullion...ounce for ounce.

Buy what you can afford. DO NOT take a loan out to buy it!!!!!!!!!! Just do not look to "flip it" for a quick profit. The recommendation by financial experts is to have at least 10% of your total financial portfolio in precious metals.

banger

[funnyjim014]

I should have invested in remington thunderbolts when they were on sale for 6.99/500...... just saying its all hindsight. ...woulda coulda shooda

[woody1]

I should have invested in remington thunderbolts when they were on sale for 6.99/500...... just saying its all hindsight. ...woulda coulda shooda

I did, only I think they were $8.99. I'll let 'em go for a mere $89.99 + shipping. Wanna buy some?:kidding: I didn't think so!
Regards, Woody

[Bad Water Bill]

Well I am old enough to remember when I went to bed on a Sat night and silver was about $40.00 per oz.

When the market opened Mon mourning spot was about $6.00 per oz.

35 years later and still holding strong at about $14.00.

As for precious gemstones who are you going to sell them to if and when SHTF?

99% of your jewelers are NOT GGs and do not know any, so how are you going to get a fair price.

About 20 years ago I interviewed for a job at a national jewelry chain.

The woman doing the interview was a V P and during her questioning I found out she had no real knowledge of gem stones gold or silver pricing etc.

No I did not get the job because I was "over qualified" and I was glad because a few years later their doors were closed for good.

[bangerjim]

"Investing" in expendables and consumables is not really a good plan for long-term financial security.

Pull the trigger and BOOM.......your "investment" is totally worthless and gone. My great-grandchildren will still have my gold. And they, if they wish, can procure expendables.

Again, smart investing is a personal thing.

banger

[dragon813gt]

Silver is down as well. It wasn't that long ago that it was $40 an ounce. Silver is easier for most people to acquire.

I personally buy graded coins. Yes I'm paying a premium. But they also command a premium. They are also extremely easy to sell. If you're looking for bulk purchases then it's not the way to go.

I've bought of eBay but it's only been graded coins. I would not be buying one ounce bars and the like. I'd go to APMEX for something like that. Their prices are fairly reasonable and you know what you're getting is real.

[snowwolfe]

If you think it's a good time to buy gold
or silver then the company selling it to you thinks it's a good time to sell:)
if anyone here was really a super expert on stocks and metals then pretty much every big investment firm would be offering them huge sums of money to come work for them.

[bangerjim]

If you think it's a good time to buy gold
or silver then the company selling it to you thinks it's a good time to sell:)
if anyone here was really a super expert on stocks and metals then pretty much every big investment firm would be offering them huge sums of money to come work for them.

And how do you know I don't?????????

[Moonman]

I worked with some fellas that got involved in the Hunt brothers silver deal decades ago. They rode that silver they held and kept buying more up to $50 an ounce or so, I think they still have it too.

[snowwolfe]

And how do you know I don't?????????
Just a hunch:)
My thoughts are investing in anything is just another form of legalized gambling. And yes I do invest on occasion but if I would of followed up on every hot stock tip I was given I would be broke right now.

[bangerjim]

Just a hunch:)
My thoughts are investing in anything is just another form of legalized gambling. And yes I do invest on occasion but if I would of followed up on every hot stock tip I was given I would be broke right now.

That is the key.......do NOT buy "hot" stocks!!!!!!!! Or listen to a buddy's "tips".

If done correctly......it is DEFINITELY very far from gambling! I bet you do not think twice before investing....er....gambling on lead or guns.

Do your research and then buy only solid stocks you know intimately that pay good dividends. Hold them. Day trading will only end up loosing your money unless that is your ENTIRE job every single day.

I have many times taken $10K or so and within a few short months doubled it - - with the right knowledge and planned investments.

Gold, silver, & the markets, are not for the average joe on the street. It takes serious research, studying trends, and the willingness to hang in there to grow your money on a long-term basis. If one only has a couple hundred bucks of free liquid cash, buy lead. If one has serious liquid funds, they can make some serious money. And NOT on hot stock tips from Sam the Barber.

As the old saying goes: "It takes money to make money".

banger

[snowwolfe]

Then you are truly a wise and wealthy investor if you have on many occasions doubled your investment in just a few months:)

[bangerjim]

Then you are truly a wise and wealthy investor if you have on many occasions doubled your investment in just a few months:)



Yes it can be done.

[dtknowles]

Just a hunch:)
My thoughts are investing in anything is just another form of legalized gambling. And yes I do invest on occasion but if I would of followed up on every hot stock tip I was given I would be broke right now.

Not investing is just letting inflation eat away at the value of your capital.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Then you are truly a wise and wealthy investor if you have on many occasions doubled your investment in just a few months:)

It take me on average 8 years to double the value of my investments.

Tim

[fatelk]

As the old saying goes: "It takes money to make money".
I guess that's why I'll never be rich. :)

[garym1a2]

In the last 20 years gold has only went up less than doubled compared to S&P going up over 4x. Gold is just a pretty rock for me.

[smilie=s: $1130.70/oz T today. lowest since Aug "09. It's been falling for several weeks. Might be time to move some assets for long term hedge.

[BrassMagnet]

How can they be the right dimensions and not come up short on weight, do you know the allow because nickel is much less dense than silver.

Tim

Chinese silver dollar fakes have become so good you can only detect it is not silver with an acid test. You wouldn't do an acid test on a collectible coin.
We had a coin dealer here with a bowl of fake coins. You could weigh them, measure the dimensions with a micrometer/caliper and not detect anything wrong with a single coin. The color was even right for an old silver dollar. You could find two, or more, with the same exact scratches, marks, etc.

Here is a link to an article and video of counterfeits:

http://goldsilver.com/video/special-report-how-to-avoid-fake-silver-and-counterfeit-gold-products/

[snowwolfe]

Not investing is just letting inflation eat away at the value of your capital.

Tim

Agreed, never said I did not invest. But it only works if the investments are profitable. Most people who mention how much they make never offer the details of how much they paid in broker fees or capital gains tax.

[BrassMagnet]

Not investing is just letting inflation eat away at the value of your capital.

Tim

Well said.

Besides, you do have to plan for your future.

[MaryB]

$135 and a 1/10 oz at a time like I do if I have some cash that is not allocated already http://www.apmex.com/product/4/1-10-oz-gold-american-eagle-bu-random-year


It's bad enough I have to endure those stupid gold commercials on TV, now I have to get irate because they're on here? Willy Weethervane and his multi-million dollar "Buy My Gold" commercials have me grabbing the remote to shut him off.

That other idiot says I have to have gold in my "PORTFOLIO." I grab my empty wallet to show that fool my portfolio.

I'd dearly love to have and hold one of those gold coins on those commercials, sadly I don't have a couple thousand bucks it would take to get ONE! I'd much rather have what that money could buy in guns.

[MaryB]

Lot of the fakes were titanium cores


How can they be the right dimensions and not come up short on weight, do you know the allow because nickel is much less dense than silver.

Tim

[MaryB]

In 1960 a silver quarter bought a gallon of gas(or $1 bought 4 gallons), today a silver quarter still buys a gallon of gas or 4 of them 4 gallons. Today that same 1960 paper dollar buys you .32 gallons of gas. Gold and silver protect wealth, may not increase it drastically but they prevent it from eroding.

[nvbirdman]

I love the commercials urging me to buy gold because some experts expect it to increase in value.
If they really thought it was going to increase, they would be buying it, not trying to sell it to me (a stranger).

[Garyshome]

So if gold costs $1130.70/oz. what's the mark up? will it ever reach that mark up for me to break even?
I think i'll run down to dollar general and pick up some spam , & maybe some beans. Use the rest to buy primers/powder/lead, maybe another mold, maybe some beer. I'll bet cigarette's & wiskey will be worth more then gold if..............
I cannot remember when the prices on brass have been so low.

[MaryB]

Premiums depend on what you are buying but a gold eagle(1oz) is 8% or so over spot price. And yes there is a very good chance prices will rise more than 8%. Precious metals are the last thing on the list behind water, food, ammo, guns.... if you are set and just resupplying what you use and have leftover it doesn't hurt to have some in the safe.

[Bad Water Bill]

When SHTF where will you find buyers and just what premium will they charge to a total stranger?

If they demand an assay because of so many counterfeit Chinese copies,how long will it take and how much will it cost?

Many questions I could ask because back when Bucky Hunt was busy so was I and a friend.

Some times selling as much as $15,000 worth of silver stuff in a week and filling orders for 4-5 100 oz bars of .999 silver.

[762 shooter]

Precious metals are investments after an event (shtf, emp, wtrol, economic depression )

It's hard to get some stores to take a hundred dollar bill now.

762

[Cord]

It’s not that prices are going up;
It’s the paper money that’s going down.

The yardstick that you use (dollars)
to measure things (prices)
continues to change.

Gold has not changed; the paper money has.

144921

[rancher1913]

there are a lot more people out there that will trade for silver/gold than you think, and not the "we will buy your gold" outfits. during the "evil black gun" shortage awhile back several individuals had ar's for trade only and they wanted gold/silver not cash. will I trade a ounce of gold for a jar of food, no, will I trade an once of gold for a piece of equipment that I desperately need, yes. if we end up like Argentina will I sell a side of beef for gold/silver?, yes, will I sell it for paper money?, no.

[mold maker]

After a SHTF event, there will always be those willing to trade for gold. They are the ones who profit from others discomfort.

Having a wheel barrow full of inflated dollars might get you a loaf of bread, but a half thimble full of gold will always feed you for a long time.
How many more strokes of Os pen will it take.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I watched an hour long documentary on gold last night. I wish everyone had seen it. I came away with the realization that we are being lied to, both buy dealers and the government. When you ask the question, how will you be able to spend the gold when the time comes? Apparently the time has come. One of the moderators showed a credit card that was made up of small gold squares. When you purchase an item you simply break off the appropriate number of squares. They pointed out in the program that many people in the trade do not believe our government has as much gold in storage as they claim. The US has been storing gold for other countries for many years. Germany asked for just a portion of theirs back and were told they would have to wait. After that several other countries have tried to retrieve their gold but were given the same shuck & jive. There is nothing new in gold fraud as was pointed out in the program. It was common long before western civilization came into being. Looks like it will be with us always. Governments do not like you to own precious metals. Thy much prefer paper which they can print to their hearts content. Obozo must have the printers working around the clock.

[snowwolfe]

It's the internet! Everyone is an expert on investing as well as gold and silver. In over 15 years of web surfing I don't believe I met anyone who admitted they lost money with stocks, etc.

[bangerjim]

It's the internet! Everyone is an expert on investing as well as gold and silver. In over 15 years of web surfing I don't believe I met anyone who admitted they lost money with stocks, etc.

Well......here's one!

One cannot invest heavily in stocks, bonds, muni's and PM's without having some losers now & then. I have had them in the past. I just sold them, took the loss on taxes and moved on to something else. And made all the losses back with other market tools. It is a learning process.

Everyone in the markets will have winners......AND losers. Don't let any tell you different!

[garandsrus]

I like the following comments from Warren Buffet about gold:

The problem with gold is that it has two major insurmountable shortcomings. It is "neither of much use nor procreative" according to Buffett. While he does allow for the caveat that gold has some small industrial and decorative use, the demand for either purpose is insufficient to use up all of the gold we are digging out of the ground just to hide it away again is a bank vault. However, his bigger issue with gold is that it can't be used to produce anything of value. Its value rises and falls based on what someone else is willing to pay for it, not based on its ability to generate income for its owner.

---------

"(It) gets dug out of the ground in Africa or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."

---------

Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,127 per ounce, its value would be about $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.

Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 ExxonMobil's (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?

And yet, investors still do choose gold over these productive assets all the time. Assets that will be producing corn and cotton and oil and gas for longer than any of our lifespans. Meanwhile, the gold will be unmoved and still incapable of producing anything. To wit Buffett said, "You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond."

[jmort]

I don't mind a paper cash reserve if I am fully stocked on Bullets, Beans and Bandages. It will be far easier to trade useful goods than gold or silver. I may buy some more silver but then again if I am stocked up, I may not. I have mentioned this before, but there is a fellow I know of who has around 300 to 500 hundred Glocks in his garage as a "precious metal investment/hedge." That hoard will be quite valuable in a SHTF scenario. If paper dollars become worthless, then when I pay my mortgage with paper dollars, I will be living for free, right??????????

[shooter93]

I have nothing against gold or silver but I'm not convinced it would be the commodity of choice anymore. It has had value in the past but I think it all depends on what causes the SHTF and how bad it is. A moderate collapse then it will probably be a decent investment. If things get horrible then I'm not sure it will have any value at all despite the past. In a very serious break down there will be a ton of people who will have designs on just taking what you have. Sort of like if you're the only guy on your street gaining weight you just became a target for the hungry neighbors. And no you're not going to defend your house against 30 armed and determined people. It will all hinge on how bad the scenario becomes.

[sparky45]

Ever stop to think why they call Buffett the Oracle of Omaha? Pretty savvy investor and on top in his field. Ever stop to think he might, just might obfuscate about his true holdings? I'll wager he has at least 10% of his personal holdings in "in hand" precious metals, he'd be a fool if he didn't. His credit cards, folding money ect would be just as worthless as mine are going to become.

[rancher1913]

the crop land that buffet likes is about 15 to 20 grand an acre and requires a lot of expensive inputs to make any money. its never a bad investment to buy land but what if it gets taxed away from you. its all a balance game.

[jmort]

"I'll wager he has at least 10% of his personal holdings in "in hand" precious metals, he'd be a fool if he didn't."

Good to know. Need his address in Nebraska. When society collapses I will join the militia which goes up against his private army.

[snowwolfe]

If you guys think your USA paper money is worthless I'll take it off your hands for $.95 on the $1 :)

[wired]

We just signed a deal with the Iranians. Not that the Senate will ratify it but they don't have to . The other signatories to the deal will drop their sanctions with Iran as soon as the ink is dry in their caitals. The price of oil and other commodities will nose dive over the next few months. Gold is a commodity and it too will drop like a stone. It won't drop to pre 2008 prices ( remember $270 gold? I do. Bought 2 pounds and sold sold it when it hit $1500. Nice down payment on my house ) but it will probably plunge under $600. Anyone who bought gold over $1100 and held it will be convincing themselves they did something smart. Investment opportunities run in cycles. Sometimes its stocks ( not now ) , sometimes its bonds, sometimes commodities , etc. With commodities about to take a nosedive the institutional investors will look for something new and commodities will take a back seat for a while or at least until the next financial scare.

[quilbilly]

Gold and silver have always seemed to buy about the same thing of a commodity historically. An ounce gold should buy a well tailored quality mans suit in London while an ounce of silver will buy about 1/3 tank of automobile gasoline (5 gal). Don't own a suit anymore but the spot price of silver at about $15/ounce is currently almost exactly the price of 5 gallons of gas locally depending on the station. Silver might be a way to go this week with the added benefit that silver bullion one once bars or rounds are more "liquid" than gold or platinum.

[sparky45]

"I'll wager he has at least 10% of his personal holdings in "in hand" precious metals, he'd be a fool if he didn't."

Good to know. Need his address in Nebraska. When society collapses I will join the militia which goes up against his private army.
Just call me General and fall in line.:razz:

[MaryB]

Gold and silver have been real money for thousands of years and they will continue to be considered real money for thousands more! During SHTF they will not be useful, that will be pure survival. But communities will start to spring up. Markets will form that operate on barter. What do you do if Joe wants your eggs but all he has is wheat you have no use for. You want a small pig to raise instead. The guy selling piglets doesn't want wheat either right now so how do you make this trade work? Joe buys a piglet with a small amount of gold or silver, then turns around and trades you the piglet for the eggs he needs for his bakery in town. His bakery takes off and he can't possibly use barter for every trade, he would need a warehouse to store it all. So he takes a piece of silver for a loaf of bread and bingo, real money is back in use.

This time around I don't think anyone will fall sucker to paper currency(not money, currency) and hard assets of some sort will be needed. And no matter how bad it gets there will be a recovery. Uless it goes full nuke exchange then the cockroaches will own it all!

[garandsrus]

If Buffet had 10% of his net worth in gold, he would have about $7.2B in gold! That's about 6,000,000 ounces.

[TXGunNut]

When gold was $1500/oz I told my investment guy we were going to see the gold bubble burst someday soon. He didn't believe me. A year or so I pulled money out of one mutual fund that had done very well for me (Hartford Cap Ap) and put it all in another fund he'd never heard of. Cap Ap tanked and my new fund is doing quite nicely, thank you. He's done well recommending my new fund to his clients, as has another advisor I told about this fund.
I watched the Hunt brothers manipulate the silver market and will always be skeptical of commodities. I have some very important investment decisions to make in the coming months, pretty sure it won't be gold.

[Bman1954]

The last 5000 years civilization has had thousands of fiat currencies they all have had one thing in common.They have all become worthless.The U.S. dollar will be no different as it is currently lost 97 percent of its value since 1913.People have always had to return to gold and silver.I see no reason things will be different this time.The whole world is in debt due to fiat currency being manipulated by government.Its mathematically impossible to pay the debt off.We have to keep raising the debt ceiling because if we don't there is not enought money in the system to pay the interest on the debt. Craig

[dtknowles]

Lot of the fakes were titanium cores

Do you mean Tungsten, Titanium would make them very light.

Tim

[BrassMagnet]

Do you mean Tungsten, Titanium would make them very light.

Tim

Here is a link to an article about fake bars, tungsten filled gold, which are reputed to be in Fort Knox.
Years ago I heard a rumor about a national shipment of these bars to an African country. I eventually ran into an article (Not American media!) where the nation was identified as the United States and the time frame was during the Clinton administration. So here is the link:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33795.html

[MaryB]

oops! Brain fart, yup! I was working on a piece of titanium for a friend. He needed me to use my drill press to make a couple holes in this piece of square tube. And then use a mill in it to smooth a bit off one end and he is not familiar with using a cross slide vice in a drill press. He would have taken it into work and written a program and used the CNC for a 5 minute operation today but their mill is down until Wed so they will be backed up.


Do you mean Tungsten, Titanium would make them very light.

Tim

[mold maker]

Any item of value will be counterfeited at some point. Even Obama is doing it. Every time he takes an old bill out of circulation, and replaces it with a new one, it has less value.
In today's society there is no guarantee against fakes of anything. The first I ever heard of were fake jeans. Then it was the fancy shoes with somebody's name on them. Of course objects of art have always been attacked.
Even brands of food are suspect now. If there are pennies on the dollar profit to be made, someone will try.
Most of the gold I admire is natural nuggets. Many I found myself, these I guarantee are made by God and mother nature. The stuff sold to the unwary public is with a "buyer be ware" understanding.

[Bad Water Bill]

IIRC it has been mentioned here that "JUNK YARDS" have an Xray machine that can tell them the makeup of the lead they are purchasing.

If this is true why isn't the same type of machine available to the big dollar folks when dealing in gold and silver?

Surely they can afford the machine to check out $1,000 PER OZ purchases easier than the junk yard purchasing .10-.30 per # purchases of lead.

[BrassMagnet]

IIRC it has been mentioned here that "JUNK YARDS" have an Xray machine that can tell them the makeup of the lead they are purchasing.

If this is true why isn't the same type of machine available to the big dollar folks when dealing in gold and silver?

Surely they can afford the machine to check out $1,000 PER OZ purchases easier than the junk yard purchasing .10-.30 per # purchases of lead.

Read the link on counterfeits and you will see the that scanner will detect plated, but not filled.

[MtGun44]

Gold is a poor-to-fair long term "investment", not keeping pace with good investments over
the long term. However, there have been various times when it was a good hedge against
falling value of various other investments.

If I had bought $100K of gold in July of 2009, I would have gotten 105 ounces. By July of
2011, I would have been feeling pretty smug with almost $200K in value. By today, that
same 105 ounces would be worth about $120K. Not too bad from 2009, but I have many
safer and less volitile investments that have done much better.

In the 60s gold was $35 an ounce, now at $1150 or so, it is up by a factor of just short of 33 times.
The stock market was 691 in 1961, today it is just under 18,000 an increase of just over 26 times. SO - if you
had bought $100K in gold and $100K in stocks in 1961 you would be a bit better off with the gold.

If you chose 1981 as your start date, gold was $700/oz and Dow Jones was 10,266. Gold is up by 1.64 times and
the stock market is up 1.75 times. The Dow wins on this one.

Start buying in 1990 ant you get gold at $400 and the Dow at 2700 or so. Gold has increased by 2.9X and the
Dow by 6.7X. The Dow wins by a huge margin.

Start investing in 2000 and gold was at $300 (ugly for those that bought in 1990 or 1980!) and the Dow was
around 11,000. Gold is up 3.8X and tge Dow is up 1.6X. Gold is better over this time frame.

Many bought gold in the 80s and sold in the 90s, losing a lot. Some managed to make good money.

Hard to predict the future.

Bill

[bangerjim]

Ah yes..............it was nice to get gold at $35/oz..........! Old coins were the only way to do it. Individuals could not own bullion back then. Legally!!!!!!! :bigsmyl2:

Today, every hawker on TV is trying to sell you those gold bullion coins so you can answer "what's in your safe?".

[Bad Water Bill]

My time to CRY

When the wife and I were looking at THIS house we were debating if we should buy gold with about $20K of what we had available or use it to lower the payments on the house (yes the wife was a German citizen and her father was a wheel at the largest construction co in W Germany so getting gold would have been easy) and gold was $32.00 per oz.

You do the math as the house today will be hard to sell for much over about $80K

Yes her dad did work in the financial dept so many BUY and SELL orders could have been done at no commission costs.

[Handloader109]

so I wonder how the people that bought when it was $1500 an oz. thinking that they had a hedge feel?
No one is talking about that..... If you bought any in the past few years, you have lost a lot of money. Don't listen to any of the clowns on the TV and radio that are hawking TN E stuff. When (and or if) the shtf gold will be worth less than lead. I know that I can use the lead, gold just looks pretty. Now if you are prospecting and find some, great. No, price may come back some, but it is a speculation metal, not an investment. Obama made it go up for a while, things have settled down and price is going to continue to fall. Will bet it gets close to that $400 level in a couple of years. Hope none of you have your retirement plan including a lot of gold. Dog food in your future.

[Bad Water Bill]

Many years ago I read that over the last THOUSAND years gold has averaged a ratio of about 15-20 X silver price.

Just checked and the WONDERFUL internet and it says the average is close to 15 X 1 between gold and silver over 1,000 years.

Yes my money will stay with silver because IF or when SHTF many folks may still be able to barter ????? for a plain old silver trinket for their loved ones.

Now tell me how safe you will be when word gets out that YOU are the really rich person that has a stash of gold because you used a coin or ingot to barter for ?????

[garym1a2]

If you worry about SHFT just buy and hoard a lot of glocks, ar15s and ammo.

Many years ago I read that over the last THOUSAND years gold has averaged a ratio of about 15-20 X silver price.

Just checked and the WONDERFUL internet and it says the average is close to 15 X 1 between gold and silver over 1,000 years.

Yes my money will stay with silver because IF or when SHTF many folks may still be able to barter ????? for a plain old silver trinket for their loved ones.

Now tell me how safe you will be when word gets out that YOU are the really rich person that has a stash of gold because you used a coin or ingot to barter for ?????

[snowwolfe]

People can speculate all they want about gold or silver. But the botton line is either will only make you money if you buy low and sell high. It is real easy to look back in history and see where a lot of money could be made but the timing to buy and sell has (had) to be perfect otherwise it's nothing but speculation.

[dragon813gt]

If you worry about SHFT just buy and hoard a lot of glocks, ar15s and ammo.

You have to sleep at some point so that hoard will just make you a target. I have more faith in society than a lot of you seem to have. A nuclear war or asteroid hit are the only things that will set in motion a complete breakdown on society. Otherwise it's just life as usual w/ some additional hardships.

[BrassMagnet]

You have to sleep at some point so that hoard will just make you a target. I have more faith in society than a lot of you seem to have. A nuclear war or asteroid hit are the only things that will set in motion a complete breakdown on society. Otherwise it's just life as usual w/ some additional hardships.

Do you believe an EMP attack or a Carrington event fall in the nuclear war category?

[BrassMagnet]

People can speculate all they want about gold or silver. But the botton line is either will only make you money if you buy low and sell high. It is real easy to look back in history and see where a lot of money could be made but the timing to buy and sell has (had) to be perfect otherwise it's nothing but speculation.

One of my shooting buddies is an investment counselor for Fidelity.
He says gold earns no dividends and your only way to get anything out of it is to sell it.

This is true of all precious metals, including the other precious metals - brass and lead.

[Handloader109]

As far as investment, if you happened to have bought gold in 1980, you wouldn't have been able to break even again until 2006. Some investment. If you have bought in past year or three, you're out of luck too......

It is a speculation pretty metal. Btw, how are you going to barter that coin and get change back? You going to swap it for a bottle of water? Or a tin of beans? Or even a box of bullets?

[Bman1954]

Gold and silver are held as a store of wealth not an investment.Paper and digital currency are backed by only faith in government and central banks.God bless those that have that kind of faith. Craig

[lightman]

I've read this whole thread with interest. I've contributed to a 401K for my whole career and I'm near the point where I have to do something with it. I have a shooting and hunting buddy in the business and have been getting free investment advice for about 10 years. I've profited from this advice and it has been sort of an unspoken agreement that I will do business with him when I have to roll it over, and I plan to. Its been interesting reading all of your opinions.

[snowwolfe]

I am another who doubts we will ever have a break down of basic services but the one thing I picked up from this thread is I would rather have a nice supply of Glock 9mm's instead of gold or silver.

[Four-Sixty]

If SHTF, I think you could barter a lot better with booze. You can buy a lot of booze with what it'd cost you to put away an ounce of gold. And, you can divide up booze into very small increments, very easily. For that matter, hoard toilet paper!

I would prefer also to have a shop full of tools, books and materials so that I could make stuff. As an example, if commerce stops, and you have the right glue for fixing a woman's shoes, you will be a guy who is in demand!

I bet some folks would pay a lot of silver for some toilet paper after SHTF.

[sparky45]

I bet some folks would pay a lot of silver for some toilet paper after SHTF.

I think you can wipe that idea off the blackboard, cornhusks, leaves, and junk mail will rule the day.
You keep the toilet paper and I'll keep my Silver.:bigsmyl2:

[sparky45]

Gold and silver are held as a store of wealth not an investment.Paper and digital currency are backed by only faith in government and central banks.God bless those that have that kind of faith. Craig
Sounds like Gospel to me, Amen Brother, Amen!

[Four-Sixty]

I think you can wipe that idea off the blackboard, cornhusks, leaves, and junk mail will rule the day.
You keep the toilet paper and I'll keep my Silver.:bigsmyl2:

Maybe after awhile, when people get comfortable with a new norm. I have four daughters and a Wife. I sort of understand women, and I expect there are a lot them - as well as men - who will find it unacceptable to use anything but toilet paper.

[dragon813gt]

Do you believe an EMP attack or a Carrington event fall in the nuclear war category?

I don't know what a Carrington event is. An EMP attack would have to take out everything. An I mean on a world wide scale for it to completely break down society. Humans have been adapting and over coming our entire lives. If the power goes out there will be a lot of people that die. But I don't see society completely breaking down. Food and water will still be available. Nuclear winter caused by a nuclear war, asteroid impact or a super volcano eruption will break down society. And at that point you have to ask yourself if you really want to live in that type of world. I know what my answer is.

You hoard anything and you are a target in all of the SHTF scenarios. Better have some close friends that won't turn on each other. Because you're going to have guard your hoard 24/7 just to maintain. Not a pretty picture at all.

I'm hoping gold drops into the low hundreds. At that point I will invest a certain percentage. I will continue to buy graded coins along w/ other silver collectibles.

[Cord]

J.P. Morgan, undeniably the most influential financier in history told Congress in 1912;
“Money is gold. Everything else is credit.”

Here is the exchange, from December 19, 1912:

Q. "I want to ask you a few questions bearing on the subject that
you have touched upon this morning, as to the control of money.
The control of credit involves a control of money, does it not? "

A. "A control of credit? No."

Q. "But the basis of banking is credit, is it not?"

A. "Not always. That is an evidence of banking, but it is not the money itself.
Money is gold, and nothing else. "

Q. "The basis of banking is credit?"

A. "Yes."

This remark is often misquoted as"Gold is money, and nothing else."
but what you read above is the correct version from the Library of Congress.
.

[sparky45]

Maybe after awhile, when people get comfortable with a new norm. I have four daughters and a Wife. I sort of understand women, and I expect there are a lot them - as well as men - who will find it unacceptable to use anything but toilet paper.
Maybe a improvised Bidet?

[Cord]

Alan Greenspan, former Chairman of the Federal Reserve
Interviewed by Gillian Tett, U.S. Managing Editor, Financial Times
The Council of Foreign Relations, New York, October 29, 2014

TETT:…… "But do you think that gold is currently a good investment
given what you're saying about the potential for turmoil?"

GREENSPAN: "Yes."

(LAUGHTER)

TETT: "Do you put..."

GREENSPAN: "Economists are usually perfect in equivocating.
In this case I didn't equivocate.
Look, remember what we're looking at. Gold is a currency.
It is still by all evidences the premier currency
where no fiat currency, including the dollar, can match it.
And so that the issue is, if you're looking at a question of turmoil,
you will find, as we always have in the past, it moves into the gold price.

But the gold price is actually sort of half a commodity price,
so when the economy is weakening, it goes down like copper.
But it's also got a monetary characteristic which is intrinsic.
It's not inbred into human beings—I cannot conceive—
of any mechanism by which you could say that,
but it behaves as though it is."

You can find video of this exchange on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psjBj0lkueg
.

[MtGun44]

"an EMP attack will wipe out everything".

You have been reading too much science(ish) fiction. EMP is massively overrated by
fiction authors. Almost all cars modern will run fine, some will require powering down and powering
back up (reboot). Many appliances will be damaged if connected to the grid. Large
power transformers will be damaged and will take some significant time to repair. Changes to
sourcing (6 or 7 new US suppliers have started up recently) and standardization on sizing and
application are making replacements much more rapid than predicted a decade ago.

Do some research, there are a number of online LEGITIMATE scientific sources and some
reports of government subcommittees and industry groups working to improve the
rapidity and effectiveness of response to the damage.

Yes it is real, yes there will be damage, but the time to recover and the amount of damage
has been MASSIVELY exaggerated to sell books.

Bill

[MaryB]

One fix the power companies have been fighting is fusing the transformers. Sure that means fuses tripping out at times and power outages but it would protect the major transformers from failure.

[Bad Water Bill]

2 doors down from me the same transformer has hung from the same pole for at least the 43 years I have lived in this home and yes almost every storm trips their ??? and everyone on my side of the street is in the dark AGAIN.

Last year they raised our electric bill by 25% to UPDATE their aging equipment.

At that time they dropped a new pole on a neighbors front lawn.

Now they need another increase in order to plant the pole.:evil:

[BrassMagnet]

Gold and silver are held as a store of wealth not an investment.Paper and digital currency are backed by only faith in government and central banks.God bless those that have that kind of faith. Craig

China is dumping dollar denominated assets rapidly. Reportedly about a half trillion in the last five quarters which includes about 224 Billion in the last quarter. China claims to have purchased 600 more tons of gold for their reserves.
No one believes China is telling the truth about the size of the increase in their gold reserves, but JP Morgan reported the half trillion divestment from analyzing their FX reserves.
Source: SHTFplan and Zero Hedge.
A Carrington Event is a shot of energy from the sun which act similar to an EMP, but is naturally occurring.

[mold maker]

I'm not the least upset that the price dropped to $1093. yesterday at one time. It's been there before. It's still over $600. above what I paid. If at the time, I had used the money for anything else it would be long gone. As it stands, I still have over double what I paid.
I can easily, un-noticed carry 20 or so T oz in my pants pocket. All the talk about investing/hoarding lead or ammo is just bluster. Just how much of them can you hide on your person, and move about in a distraught society. Just how long will a pocket full of lead or ammo last.
I've heard of many paper rich folks dying hungry, because their money turned worthless. but have you ever heard of a man starving with gold in his pocket?
There will always be profiteers willing to trade whatever for gold.
When your family get really hungry, can you carry enough lead or bullets to trade for enough food? It maybe miles away, on foot, for all of you, and NO you can't just whip out your gun and take it. I'll have one to. If you co-operate, I might even buy you a biscuit.

[BrassMagnet]

I'm not the least upset that the price dropped to $1093. yesterday at one time. It's been there before. It's still over $600. above what I paid. If at the time, I had used the money for anything else it would be long gone. As it stands, I still have over double what I paid.
I can easily, un-noticed carry 20 or so T oz in my pants pocket. All the talk about investing/hoarding lead or ammo is just bluster. Just how much of them can you hide on your person, and move about in a distraught society. Just how long will a pocket full of lead or ammo last.
I've heard of many paper rich folks dying hungry, because their money turned worthless. but have you ever heard of a man starving with gold in his pocket?
There will always be profiteers willing to trade whatever for gold.
When your family get really hungry, can you carry enough lead or bullets to trade for enough food? It maybe miles away, on foot, for all of you, and NO you can't just whip out your gun and take it. I'll have one to. If you co-operate, I might even buy you a biscuit.

i agree.
i occasionally worked with Ed. Ed was a telco guy. Ed was going to retire in a year as a millionaire. Then MCI Worldcom turned out to be cooking the books and all of Ed's stock became worthless. So did his retirement. 100% of Ed's investments were in MCI. No diversity! Bernie Madoff's clients thought they were diversified, too!
can it really hurt to have a few more options?

[jmort]

"...but have you ever heard of a man starving with gold in his pocket?"

I suppose not, assuming there was food to buy. But what I would suspect if paper dollars were worthless, the man with the gold in his pocket would be a dead man.

[Blacksmith]

"...but have you ever heard of a man starving with gold in his pocket?"

I suppose not, assuming there was food to buy. But what I would suspect if paper dollars were worthless, the man with the gold in his pocket would be a dead man.

There are a lot of refugees that lived because they had some gold to pay for a passage or to bribe a boarder guard to look the other way.

Diversification is the key because you don't know what will happen and what will work. A little gold, a little silver, some booze, and tobacco, food, ammo, tools, etc. But remember the things they can't take away from you are your knowledge and skills, so make sure you have some of each that will be in demand.

[Handloader109]

Absolutely diversify, I too know folks that lost from a lot to all due to MI, but those folks were really stupid. You never own a lot of one company stock, 100% is very stupid. At any rate, gold is now headed down, and there have been a lot of people fooled by the TV charlatans selling it.

[Petrol & Powder]

From the first post on this thread 7/17/15:
"$1130.70/oz T today. lowest since Aug "09. It's been falling for several weeks. Might be time to move some assets for long term hedge. "

Today's closing price on gold: $1090.40
An article from today: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/23/investing/gold-prices-fall/index.html

Purely as an investment, gold is very volatile and proven to be a bit risky for the casual investor.

You're just trading one commodity (paper currency) for another commodity (a metal) in the hopes that the metal will at some point in the future be worth more than the original amount of the money (paper) after being adjusted for inflation.

Precious metals can be good investments but like any investment, the risk has to be weighed against the potential gain. Some knowledge of that particular market improves your odds of success.
Remember that the people selling the commodity make their money from the people buying the commodity; not the commodity itself. The ones engaged in the sales are the WRONG people to seek your advice and knowledge from. Of course they're going to say it's an excellent investment.....they want you to buy it.

[BrassMagnet]

From the first post on this thread 7/17/15:
"$1130.70/oz T today. lowest since Aug "09. It's been falling for several weeks. Might be time to move some assets for long term hedge. "

Today's closing price on gold: $1090.40
An article from today: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/23/investing/gold-prices-fall/index.html

Purely as an investment, gold is very volatile and proven to be a bit risky for the casual investor.

You're just trading one commodity (paper currency) for another commodity (a metal) in the hopes that the metal will at some point in the future be worth more than the original amount of the money (paper) after being adjusted for inflation.

Precious metals can be good investments but like any investment, the risk has to be weighed against the potential gain. Some knowledge of that particular market improves your odds of success.
Remember that the people selling the commodity make their money from the people buying the commodity; not the commodity itself. The ones engaged in the sales are the WRONG people to seek your advice and knowledge from. Of course they're going to say it's an excellent investment.....they want you to buy it.

Think of it as insurance where you pay one premium and you are covered for life, if you can hold on to it!
How much would you pay one time for an insurance policy that never expires, but can be stolen or destroyed in a fire?
It is even dividable if you get smaller weight gold coins and silver coins.

[Petrol & Powder]

I prefer to think of it as an investment.

[MaryB]

Paper currency IS NOT a commodity! It is a hunk of toilet paper that government may or may not honor making its value questionable unless you need to wipe! Gold on the other hand IS a commodity that has been used as MONEY(not currency) for thousands of years! When the value of that dollar is trashed what will you buy with it? But there will always be someone trading for gold! I still have my store of wealth in gold while your paper store went to zero!


From the first post on this thread 7/17/15:
"$1130.70/oz T today. lowest since Aug "09. It's been falling for several weeks. Might be time to move some assets for long term hedge. "

Today's closing price on gold: $1090.40
An article from today: http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/23/investing/gold-prices-fall/index.html

Purely as an investment, gold is very volatile and proven to be a bit risky for the casual investor.

You're just trading one commodity (paper currency) for another commodity (a metal) in the hopes that the metal will at some point in the future be worth more than the original amount of the money (paper) after being adjusted for inflation.

Precious metals can be good investments but like any investment, the risk has to be weighed against the potential gain. Some knowledge of that particular market improves your odds of success.
Remember that the people selling the commodity make their money from the people buying the commodity; not the commodity itself. The ones engaged in the sales are the WRONG people to seek your advice and knowledge from. Of course they're going to say it's an excellent investment.....they want you to buy it.

[Petrol & Powder]

The value to gold is what someone else is willing to exchange for it.
I'm not saying gold is valueless, it has a long history of use as a trading commodity.
What I'm saying is, "Purely as an investment, gold is very volatile and proven to be a bit risky for the casual investor."

The very first post of this thread suggested now was the time to buy gold. As an investment the best time to buy gold is when the price has bottomed out. My point is we haven't found the bottom yet.

[BrassMagnet]

The value to gold is what someone else is willing to exchange for it.
I'm not saying gold is valueless, it has a long history of use as a trading commodity.
What I'm saying is that is, "Purely as an investment, gold is very volatile and proven to be a bit risky for the casual investor."

The very first post of this thread suggested now was the time to buy gold. As an investment the best time to buy gold is when the price has bottomed out. My point is we haven't found the bottom yet.

My point is "As insurance, you buy what you want when you can afford to pay the going price and you don't worry about it ever again!"
End of story.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you could afford to pay the going price in September of 2011 you would have paid $1900/oz.
Today it is trading at $1083/oz.

That's not insurance - that's a $817/oz. loss.

[snowwolfe]

I always have to chuckle when I think about all the precious metal firms who sell gold.
Because they all pretty much demand cash as payment.
Shows just how "worthless" our dollar has become.

[garym1a2]

Gold is only a pretty rock, worth buying when all the fools are selling theirs only if you sell when these same fools buy theirs.

[garym1a2]

Try buying food or gas with gold.

Paper currency IS NOT a commodity! It is a hunk of toilet paper that government may or may not honor making its value questionable unless you need to wipe! Gold on the other hand IS a commodity that has been used as MONEY(not currency) for thousands of years! When the value of that dollar is trashed what will you buy with it? But there will always be someone trading for gold! I still have my store of wealth in gold while your paper store went to zero!

[John Allen]

My money is invested in brass and lead

[Cord]

The trade value of anything is what someone else is willing to exchange for it.

So if your paper investments like stocks and bonds earn “dividends” or rise in price,
you still have to sell them to realize that profit, and to sell them you need a buyer.
If you do sell, commonly that profit remains in the form of electronic digits,
paper in the bank, or paper in your wallet.

It’s like sitting in an endless poker game, your pile of chips may grow or shrink,
but the tally is done only when you get up from the table and cash out.

Would you take your life savings into a casino and put it on the table while you play?
Well maybe you already have.
Many people have all their chips, really big piles of chips, in the Wall Street Casino.
They trust the bankers and the politicians, and feel secure that they can always cash out.

But what if the cashier’s window closes and the casino goes dark?
What if millions of people decide to cash out at the same time, stocks and bonds go
“No Bid” because there are not enough buyers to match up with those who want to sell?

What if your local bank closes too? How do you get the things in your safety deposit box?

Think it won’t happen here? It’s happening right now in Greece.

It’s called “Counter Party Risk” and it means that someone needs
to hold up their end of the deal for you to get what you think you own.

Physical gold or silver coins in your hand have no counter party risk.
Kinda like your guns and lead.
They are only worth what someone will give you for them.
And you can’t eat them either.

That’s why the necessities of life are more important than gold or silver.

Have a source of water.
Have some food and shelter.
Have the means to defend it.
Have the family and friends you love around you to help.
After that is squared away, maybe then buy a few gold and silver coins.

When the SHTF you will have what you have.
Don't count on anything that happens after.
JMHO
.

[dtknowles]

The trade value of anything is what someone else is willing to exchange for it.

So if your paper investments like stocks and bonds earn “dividends” or rise in price,
you still have to sell them to realize that profit, and to sell them you need a buyer.
If you do sell, commonly that profit remains in the form of electronic digits,
paper in the bank, or paper in your wallet.

It’s like sitting in an endless poker game, your pile of chips may grow or shrink,
but the tally is done only when you get up from the table and cash out.

Would you take your life savings into a casino and put it on the table while you play?
Well maybe you already have.
Many people have all their chips, really big piles of chips, in the Wall Street Casino.
They trust the bankers and the politicians, and feel secure that they can always cash out.

But what if the cashier’s window closes and the casino goes dark?
What if millions of people decide to cash out at the same time, stocks and bonds go
“No Bid” because there are not enough buyers to match up with those who want to sell?

What if your local bank closes too? How do you get the things in your safety deposit box?

Think it won’t happen here? It’s happening right now in Greece.

It’s called “Counter Party Risk” and it means that someone needs
to hold up their end of the deal for you to get what you think you own.

Physical gold or silver coins in your hand have no counter party risk.
Kinda like your guns and lead.
They are only worth what someone will give you for them.
And you can’t eat them either.

That’s why the necessities of life are more important than gold or silver.

Have a source of water.
Have some food and shelter.
Have the means to defend it.
Have the family and friends you love around you to help.
After that is squared away, maybe then buy a few gold and silver coins.

When the SHTF you will have what you have.
Don't count on anything that happens after.
JMHO
.


"That’s why the necessities of life are more important than gold or silver.

Have a source of water.
Have some food and shelter.
Have the means to defend it.
Have the family and friends you love around you to help.
After that is squared away, maybe then buy a few gold and silver coins."

I think that is what we are talking about. Get the basics covered then think about what to do with the excess. What about people who have significant saving in 401K or IRA's. They don't have many options other than something that is just ones and zero's in a computer unless they put it into precious metals and then they still can't maintain possession of the physical gold.

I keep a limited amount of cash, gold, silver, bonds, gems, etc in my safe but it is a tiny fraction of my wealth. My guns, ammo and reloading supplies are almost as valuable as the other assets I keep at home and many of them are in a safe but safes are only so safe. I would never keep half a million dollars in assets in my home or even in a safety deposit box at the bank. You have to keep you life savings somewhere. I think the best thing you can do is pay off your home and spread the rest around in diversified manner. I don't invest for appreciation anymore, I have enough, I invest for preservation. My risk tolerance has gone way down. I don't know that you can stash enough of anything to survive a super major world crisis on just your stash. If you stash too much you just become a target unless you have an army/gang. Maybe if you stash is far enough back in the swamp or woods you could be ok but then it should be food and necessities not gold or silver.

Tim

[wonderwolf]

My sister is a CFP and we go at each others throats over PM's all the time. I get back at her by giving her a silver dollar every Christmas and mention something along the lines of "dosn't that feel better than a piece of paper".

I dabble in silver in pre '65 form but only when everything else is caught up around the homestead and I can't think of anywhere better to put the funds. Silver probably only represents about 3% of my perceived "wealth". I doubt I'll ever get into gold as its almost too compact...pre '65 silver you can get here and there with little to no hassle. I've even traded for it on forums and give a discount for it. I don't see it as an investment, it will get passed down to my children though as a "legacy insurance" as its a tool in a toolbox that could be useful later on, but I hold no hopes of recovering my cost put forth to obtain the silver I currently own in my lifetime.

That being said, a good set of guns and the knowledge on how to use them effectively is worth more than a truckload of PM's to me.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

To me the study of economics since my course in economics 101 in college almost sixty years ago has always seemed like a study in folly, the latest being bit coins. P.T. Barnum would have loved that one.

[shooter93]

And I suppose in the right scenario the government could quickly pass a law making personal holding of gold or silver illegal and to be turned in at a price per ounce set by them. Never happen though right?

[jmort]

If anyone seriously thinks that the Government would never seize their retirement funds, gold (happened before), and silver, they are insane.

[perotter]

If anyone seriously thinks that the Government would never seize their retirement funds, gold (happened before), and silver, they are insane.

Thing is retirement funds are on computers and easily taken. Taking gold and/or silver involves using a shovel and it's big country. People turned gold in years ago because they had trust in the government, today people don't.

[BrassMagnet]

Thing is retirement funds are on computers and easily taken. Taking gold and/or silver involves using a shovel and it's big country. People turned gold in years ago because they had trust in the government, today people don't.

Anyone that bought gold or silver from dealers is on record for possessing precious metals. If the gov't orders them turned in, they will have a paper trail to prove possession. When you sell precious metals a special tax applies. Stating you sold them and didn't pay that tax would be tax fraud. Keeping them and not turning them over as demanded would also be a crime. Now what?

[garym1a2]

Glocks, you can buy them without a paper trail. If everything falls apart they are worth their weight in GOLD!

Anyone that bought gold or silver from dealers is on record for possessing precious metals. If the gov't orders them turned in, they will have a paper trail to prove possession. When you sell precious metals a special tax applies. Stating you sold them and didn't pay that tax would be tax fraud. Keeping them and not turning them over as demanded would also be a crime. Now what?

[perotter]

Anyone that bought gold or silver from dealers is on record for possessing precious metals. If the gov't orders them turned in, they will have a paper trail to prove possession. When you sell precious metals a special tax applies. Stating you sold them and didn't pay that tax would be tax fraud. Keeping them and not turning them over as demanded would also be a crime. Now what?

Why would anyone with assets that are meant to be hidden handle them in the manner you describe? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Bad Water Bill]

Anyone that bought gold or silver from dealers is on record for possessing precious metals. If the gov't orders them turned in, they will have a paper trail to prove possession. When you sell precious metals a special tax applies. Stating you sold them and didn't pay that tax would be tax fraud. Keeping them and not turning them over as demanded would also be a crime. Now what?

Over the years I have bought or my friend bought or sold many thousands of ounces of gold and silver and never was a paper presented for either of us to sign.

And all of these transactions took place right in Mayor's Dalys back yard with plenty of chiraq cops providing security.

Never heard of nor paid any special tax for dealing in gold or silver.

[MaryB]

Stackers(people who buy and stash physical gold and silver) dollar cost average so that 1900 dollar gold might be lumped in with 600 dollar to bring the average cost way down. And most do not buy at the peak they sit and wait.


If you could afford to pay the going price in September of 2011 you would have paid $1900/oz.
Today it is trading at $1083/oz.

That's not insurance - that's a $817/oz. loss.

[MaryB]

Couple local places will let you buy with gold(or silver which gets used more) near me. Grocery store knows its value, the co-op does too.


Try buying food or gas with gold.

[snowwolfe]

The only "special tax" that applies is Capitol gains tax. I made a nice sum buying and selling some silver about 4 years ago and reported my profits to the IRS and paid the tax and that was that.
But I do remember the brokerage firm I purchased it from required my SSAN when I purchased and sold the metal so there was a trail involved.

[MaryB]

Self Directed Precious Metals IRA, you store the gold and silver in your own safe and have to keep it segregated from anything not in the IRA. It is subject to inspection if you get audited.


"That’s why the necessities of life are more important than gold or silver.

Have a source of water.
Have some food and shelter.
Have the means to defend it.
Have the family and friends you love around you to help.
After that is squared away, maybe then buy a few gold and silver coins."

I think that is what we are talking about. Get the basics covered then think about what to do with the excess. What about people who have significant saving in 401K or IRA's. They don't have many options other than something that is just ones and zero's in a computer unless they put it into precious metals and then they still can't maintain possession of the physical gold.

I keep a limited amount of cash, gold, silver, bonds, gems, etc in my safe but it is a tiny fraction of my wealth. My guns, ammo and reloading supplies are almost as valuable as the other assets I keep at home and many of them are in a safe but safes are only so safe. I would never keep half a million dollars in assets in my home or even in a safety deposit box at the bank. You have to keep you life savings somewhere. I think the best thing you can do is pay off your home and spread the rest around in diversified manner. I don't invest for appreciation anymore, I have enough, I invest for preservation. My risk tolerance has gone way down. I don't know that you can stash enough of anything to survive a super major world crisis on just your stash. If you stash too much you just become a target unless you have an army/gang. Maybe if you stash is far enough back in the swamp or woods you could be ok but then it should be food and necessities not gold or silver.

Tim

[MaryB]

Last time they made private gold ownership illegal they estimate about 20-50%(hard to pin that down...) was turned in. The rest was buried in yards, hidden in basements and walls...


And I suppose in the right scenario the government could quickly pass a law making personal holding of gold or silver illegal and to be turned in at a price per ounce set by them. Never happen though right?

[MaryB]

Only if I sold enough to put me over the top and into needing to pay income tax!


Anyone that bought gold or silver from dealers is on record for possessing precious metals. If the gov't orders them turned in, they will have a paper trail to prove possession. When you sell precious metals a special tax applies. Stating you sold them and didn't pay that tax would be tax fraud. Keeping them and not turning them over as demanded would also be a crime. Now what?

[snowwolfe]

Couple local places will let you buy with gold(or silver which gets used more) near me. Grocery store knows its value, the co-op does too.

I just don't see how you can use gold as a currency. Are you supposed to carry around a scale to weigh it out and then try to calculate it's worth based on purity? Because gold nuggets are not anywhere near pure gold.

Buy $50 worth of gas then hand the clerk a gold coin? Who determines the value of the coin?

[MaryB]

Buy gas, hand clerk a 1/20th oz Canadian Maple Leaf. I know spot price for gold close to real time on my phone so easy to calculate. Manager of the co-op knows it on his computer also. And I can pay my monthly tab that way(yes we keep tabs at the gas station and get billed end of the month) so when I go to the office the manager would look at the coin, check for fakes, then apply it to my bill. They also own the grocery store so same thing applies. I go in and grab something they just write it down until the end of the month or when I walk in before and say I want to pay it.

Advantages to living in rural America! Different type of people, lots of trust and those who don't pay or write a bad check go on the wall of shame so it is rare that it happens! Lose credibility at one place here and nobody for 15 miles in any direction will do anything but cash business with you!

[snowwolfe]

Seems like a losing proposition to pay using a coin that commands a premium when you buy it then sell or trade it off for spot price.

[MaryB]

Not when the silver I am holding is dollar cost averaged at $8oz!

[snowwolfe]

What do your silver holdings have to do with using gold maple
leaf coins as currency?

[Blacksmith]

What do your silver holdings have to do with using gold maple
leaf coins as currency?

Some people also have silver they paid $1.32 an oz for that can be used for transactions. Now when you are using gold or silver to pay you are actually bartering, trading one thing for another. Precious metals have a widely publicized "market value" other commodities also have published "market values" like the price of oil, less widely known are corn, wheat, sheep, cattle, pork bellies, etc. Many things that don't have published "market values" are also traded like guns for example, and around here empty brass, lead, molds, etc.

When Bartering having a published "market value" makes a transaction easier because there is an accepted "value" to use as a reference point however in the end the true value is what two people agree on when they exchange property.

[Bad Water Bill]

So I fill my gas tank and walk inside to the bullet proof cage where the smiling turbaned attendant says Good evening sahib you owe us ?????.

Do you REALLY expect him to have any idea of what to do when you hand him a gold or silver coin.

Or the highschool dropout that has to look at the register to see how many quarters,dimes and nickles to give you.

If your bill is $4.05 and you hand him a $5 and a nickle neither they OR the manager have a clue about handing you a single.

Instead they give you your nickle back (because it confuses them) and .95 more in change because that is what the register reads.

Yes all of this has actually happened to me.

And these clowns say they are worth $15.00 per hour.

[Cord]

I can see that this just doesn't make sense to some people, but it makes perfect sense to me.

Gold and silver coins are mostly found at coin shops, coin shows and online vendors.
I sure don't go to those places and acquire coins so I can go buy gas with them the next day!
My few coins are for the future, not for today or even tomorrow.

The trend is clear.
The U.S. Dollar is going down in purchasing power.
It has gone down 97% in 100 years.
It will not stop going down.
It is steadily worth less.
and someday will be worthless.

History tells us this.
Mathematics tells us this.
If we listen.

July 23rd 2015 was the 50th anniversary of the removal of silver coins from circulation.

There are people that swapped silver coins out of change for 1x (face value) 50 years ago.
Or paid 6 times face in the 1980s and 1990s for rolled BU Washington quarters.
Even now, with the recent decline, my local shop wants 14 times face for pre-64 dimes.
I have no doubt the trend will continue.
I believe their true value is much higher.
JMHO
.

[dragon813gt]

Mass non compliance.

[rancher1913]

when the time comes, the people that have anything worth buying will take pm's. people with no pm's will be left with picking thru the garbage pile to survive because nobody wants the paper they hold. may never happen, could happen next week, nobody knows what the future holds but there are several accounts of pm's saving families during turmoils all through out history, those that fail history are doomed to repeat it.

[Uncle R.]

Glocks, you can buy them without a paper trail. If everything falls apart they are worth their weight in GOLD!

I have to tell a story.
Sorry. :roll:

When I was in my early twenties I met a fellow who was a collector and part-time dealer of nice antique guns. We weren't really close - he was a friend of a friend and knew me only slightly. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of firearms, and though I doubt he remembered my name he would sometimes answer my questions and try to instruct me.

He had a table at a local gun show and I was drooling over an 1860 Army in "well-used but all original and still functional" condition that he had on display. He advised me to buy it, and assured me that the price was fair and the goods were genuine. When I told him that I couldn't afford it he looked at me rather sternly and said "Young man, buying this gun would be a better use of your money than most of the other things you'll spend it on."

He was, of course, exactly right. Unfortunately I didn't follow his advice. Fine antique firearms have done very well in the intervening years, and my investment would likely have outperformed inflation and then some, all the while giving me joy of ownership and a place in a long line of stewards of history.

He's long gone, but I miss that old man and a few others I have known who tried to guide my steps.

Fiat currency is fine for day-to-day purchase use, but it's a poor means of long-term saving. There has NEVER been a fiat currency in any country, in any era, that wasn't inflated to or near worthlessness. Our own munificent masters are rapidly doing the same to the dollar. It may have periods of strength against other investments but the long term trend is downward and will always be.

Don't be tricked into using fiat currency as a standard by which to judge value. The dollar, the yen, the lira, the pound, all change in value, and all are going down. Learn to think in terms of real-world goods. "Enough to buy an acre of farmland." "Enough to buy a bushel of corn." "Enough to buy a barrel of oil." Gold is a good standard to judge by long term, but even gold fluctuates in the short term. Whatever you use to judge, don't be fooled into thinking "I put ten thousand dollars in the bank ten years ago, and I have ten thousand dollars now, so I didn't lose anything." Wrong! That 10K will buy substantially less today than it would then, and you lost an amount equal to that difference.


Don't try to use fiat currency as a means of long-term saving. Invest in things that have tangible value. The question, of course, is "What things?"

The answer is Diversity.

Trying to find the one best investment is a road to disaster. Every investment has risk - even cash in the bank. Just ask the Greeks. Diversity is king. Gold? Silver? Yes! Guns? Ammo? Why not? You use them anyway, right? Real estate? Yes! Stocks? Yes! Commodities? Yes! Food and toilet paper and matches? Sure - in reasonable amounts. Even a percentage of your life savings in cash? Yes - it keeps you liquid and able to respond to buying opportunities quickly.

Just don't become so certain you've figured out the future that you're tempted to put all your eggs in one basket. The future is quite likely to prove you wrong.

Uncle R.

[dtknowles]

Mass non compliance.

Wouldn't that make them like illegal aliens?

Tim

[dragon813gt]

Wouldn't that make them like illegal aliens?

Tim

There is a big difference between being here illegally and being a citizen and the government wants to take your property. Let's keep gold out of it and say the second amendment is repealed and all firearms are now illegal. Some will roll over when the government comes to collect them. If the majority don't then the government can't do much about it. Same w/ gold. Lots of people didn't turn it in when they were told to last time. I don't see this country falling that far. At least not while we still have firearms.

[dtknowles]

There is a big difference between being here illegally and being a citizen and the government wants to take your property. Let's keep gold out of it and say the second amendment is repealed and all firearms are now illegal. Some will roll over when the government comes to collect them. If the majority don't then the government can't do much about it. Same w/ gold. Lots of people didn't turn it in when they were told to last time. I don't see this country falling that far. At least not while we still have firearms.

Ignoring the law and hiding your violation because you don't like it or find it inconvenient is pretty much the same no matter what law you violate it makes you a criminal. Just because too many do it for there to be adequate enforcement does not make it right or then the illegal migrants would be right too. If you don't like a law and want to make a stand, the proper way is civil disobedience, you violate the law in a very public way, hopefully in a large group and challenge the government to enforce the law and make it easy for them to arrest all of you and don't let them just arrest the leaders insist that the take you all in together, like handcuff yourselves together.

Either you respect the rule of law or you don't. If you want to make exceptions for your special case then you need to respect those who want exceptions for their special cases.

Tim

If they outlaw guns, Call the newspapers and TV stations and I will go down to the courthouse with a gun in a sling on my back and sit on the steps chained to the hand rail with my cell phone recording and send the recording to my friends to post to youtube. I am not going to wait for them to come for my guns, break down my doors and kill my family in the night when nobody is paying attention.

[jrayborn]

Nickles is the hot ticket. Seriously...

[BrassMagnet]

Ignoring the law and hiding your violation because you don't like it or find it inconvenient is pretty much the same no matter what law you violate it makes you a criminal. Just because too many do it for there to be adequate enforcement does not make it right or then the illegal migrants would be right too. If you don't like a law and want to make a stand, the proper way is civil disobedience, you violate the law in a very public way, hopefully in a large group and challenge the government to enforce the law and make it easy for them to arrest all of you and don't let them just arrest the leaders insist that the take you all in together, like handcuff yourselves together.

Either you respect the rule of law or you don't. If you want to make exceptions for your special case then you need to respect those who want exceptions for their special cases.

Tim

If they outlaw guns, Call the newspapers and TV stations and I will go down to the courthouse with a gun in a sling on my back and sit on the steps chained to the hand rail with my cell phone recording and send the recording to my friends to post to youtube. I am not going to wait for them to come for my guns, break down my doors and kill my family in the night when nobody is paying attention.

If a thousand people join you in your armed civil disobedience you can expect to see first hand just how ineffective sporting rifles, with or without ammo, are against tactical air power or mechanized infantry.

The gov't won't order the murder of Americans, you say? Then read this and learn from history:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm

[dtknowles]

If a thousand people join you in your armed civil disobedience you can expect to see first hand just how ineffective sporting rifles, with or without ammo, are against tactical air power or mechanized infantry.

The gov't won't order the murder of Americans, you say? Then read this and learn from history:

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm

Did you notice I said that I had my rifle slung over my shoulder. It will not be loaded and I will not point it at anyone but they will have to abuse me to get it away from me and if they kill me they will have some explaining to do. This is civil disobedience not a civil war. They might kill me, I expect to be alone for this event, too many others means I lose control and my point is lost, someone else may accidentally or deliberately give them a reason to use deadly force which is clearly not my intention.

Tim

[shooter93]

Like I said I have nothing against holding either gold or silver but the game seriously changes should they pass a law making it illegal. We will never know how many didn't turn it in the last time but I doubt it was all that many people who didn't turn it in. Hiding or burying it takes it out of circulation as effectively as making it illegal to posses. It become a rock in the ground. Same mentality with "I'll bury my guns so they won't get them" If you think they are going to take them then it's time to start using them as they were intended to be used and not hide them.

[ol skool]

I just don't see how you can use gold as a currency. Are you supposed to carry around a scale to weigh it out and then try to calculate it's worth based on purity? Because gold nuggets are not anywhere near pure gold.Buy $50 worth of gas then hand the clerk a gold coin? Who determines the value of the coin?

Look up "two bits".

Shopkeeps would have the scales. I lived in a place many, many years ago where the shopkeep took gold for groceries, so did the shopkeep in the next town. Clean placer went for 2/3 spot, wouldn't take dirty gold at all.

[Bad Water Bill]

Another member here was telling me of a small town WAAAY back in the boonies of his state that trades in gold coins.

What really surprised me was they did not trade in U S gold coins but SPANISH DOUBLOONS.

Believe it or not the Spanish had trading posts deep into the state of Mo and he has found proof in some of the caverns near his home in central Mo a long way from any major riverways.

[MaryB]

You won't see it everywhere, but there ARE places that will take it as payment! My LGS will for sure!


So I fill my gas tank and walk inside to the bullet proof cage where the smiling turbaned attendant says Good evening sahib you owe us ?????.

Do you REALLY expect him to have any idea of what to do when you hand him a gold or silver coin.

Or the highschool dropout that has to look at the register to see how many quarters,dimes and nickles to give you.

If your bill is $4.05 and you hand him a $5 and a nickle neither they OR the manager have a clue about handing you a single.

Instead they give you your nickle back (because it confuses them) and .95 more in change because that is what the register reads.

Yes all of this has actually happened to me.

And these clowns say they are worth $15.00 per hour.

[MaryB]

Silver is also used as money and is better for small transactions. And both my gold and silver dollar cost average is well below spot still so I am still to the good as an investment! Dollar cost averaging works like this, say I have 10 1oz Silver Eagles. I bought 6 of them at $8oz and 4 at $22oz. My average price paid is $13.60oz and spot is $14.84 right now. So I am $1.24 to the good per ounce on that deal! I don't have a lot of gold, to rich for my blood, mainly what I have been given by mom and one coin my Grandpa gave me when I was 12($20 gold eagle). But I ove 90% US silver coins and anytime I find a bargain and have extra cash I snap some up. And they are easily sold if I need cash. When I replaced the computer I sold some generic silver rounds and bars to raise a little cash to add to what I made in mat sales to cover the cost. Ebay is great, people pay well over spot and I can make a profit even with 12% fees!


What do your silver holdings have to do with using gold maple
leaf coins as currency?

[MaryB]

estimates are between 20 and 50% of the people hid their gold and never turned it in. Only a few high profile cases were prosecuted over it back then also


Like I said I have nothing against holding either gold or silver but the game seriously changes should they pass a law making it illegal. We will never know how many didn't turn it in the last time but I doubt it was all that many people who didn't turn it in. Hiding or burying it takes it out of circulation as effectively as making it illegal to posses. It become a rock in the ground. Same mentality with "I'll bury my guns so they won't get them" If you think they are going to take them then it's time to start using them as they were intended to be used and not hide them.

[Blacksmith]

The majority of gold that was turned in was melted and cast into ingots and moved to Fort Knox. The old gold coins you buy today were from stashes that people did not turn in. There are a lot of old gold coins still around meaning a lot of people had stashes.

[BrassMagnet]

The majority of gold that was turned in was melted and cast into ingots and moved to Fort Knox. The old gold coins you buy today were from stashes that people did not turn in. There are a lot of old gold coins still around meaning a lot of people had stashes.

And coins that were outside the US.

[shooter93]

20 to 50 % is quite a range actually and in the scheme of things I doubt there is/was a tremendous amount of gold held in private hands. Silver I would think is held in much greater quantities. If....and it's a big if.....it was made illegal again I think there would be very few places that would risk dealing with it. Some very rural areas but on the whole it would be a small number.

[MaryB]

If they make it illegal again we will have much worse things to worry about, like a civil war...

[jrayborn]

With the economy, or at least the way we pay for things, becoming more and more electronic, it would seem that at some point silver and gold MAY have no value. Technology stinks sometimes.

[mold maker]

Well since it seems to be the consensus of opinion, that gold is, or will soon be worthless, I'll be a gentleman an trade my lead even, for your gold, oz for oz ADVP. That way I'll take the loss and only keep enough lead to defend my worthless stash. I have a 30 cu ft safe that will hold it all.
You can thank me afterwards.

[BrassMagnet]

Well since it seems to be the consensus of opinion, that gold is, or will soon be worthless, I'll be a gentleman an trade my lead even, for your gold, oz for oz ADVP. That way I'll take the loss and only keep enough lead to defend my worthless stash. I have a 30 cu ft safe that will hold it all.
You can thank me afterwards.

I'll go one better.
For each ounce of gold, I'll trade the following:
$35
1# Linotype
10# wheel weights or soft lead
1 Lyman or Ideal single cavity mould.
1 hollow stick or 1 solid stick of Tac#1 lube

See, the "Doom & Gloom" crowd can treat the "All Sweetness & Light" crowd fairly!