223 AR mold recommendations?

[jld_in_IA]

Hi all,

I've never tried casting for rifle before, but am considering a mold to cast for my AR-15 in 223 Remington. The goal for this rifle is paper punching target accuracy, and a boolit that will feed properly in a semi-auto design. With a 1-8 twist 20" H-BAR, something around 65-70 grains generally shoots well with j-word bullets.

I would appreciate any suggestions of what molds might work well for this setup. Like I said, I've not cast for rifle before, so not sure if I'm looking for a GC or a BP boolit design, but I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks,

[Larry Gibson]

You're wanting to go from "never tried casting for rifle before" to PHD level with that kind of rifle if you expect a "goal for this rifle is paper punching target accuracy". However, that goal can mean different things. It means moa accuracy at 300+ yards to an F Class shooter, 2 moa accuracy to maybe 600 yards to a NMC shooter and 4 moa accuracy to an IPSC/3 gun shooter. Can you define a bit better what your accuracy and range "goals" are?

Larry Gibson

[jld_in_IA]

Larry,

You make an excellent point that I was not very clear about my goals. To be more reasonable about it, let's say 1 MOA at 100 yards, and 1.5 at 300. The rifle will do that with good jacketed, not too tuned, hand loads. If I can equal those results, I've met my goals, and if I can better them, that's a bonus.

Excess650

Thanks for the mold and lead suggestions. Do you have an idea of what the BHN of your lead is after water dropping? What are you using for boolet lube?

I think your suggestion of sizing to the throat is right on. Going to have to slug and pound cast that barrel to make sure I get a mold that will work.

[TheCelt]

Hi all,

I've never tried casting for rifle before, but am considering a mold to cast for my AR-15 in 223 Remington. The goal for this rifle is paper punching target accuracy, and a boolit that will feed properly in a semi-auto design. With a 1-8 twist 20" H-BAR, something around 65-70 grains generally shoots well with j-word bullets.

I would appreciate any suggestions of what molds might work well for this setup. Like I said, I've not cast for rifle before, so not sure if I'm looking for a GC or a BP boolit design, but I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks,

Take a look at NOE molds, he has several that will shoot well in your rifle given the right alloy/size/powder. You're gonna want a fairly hard alloy and a gas checked design and as you indicated you're going to make a pound cast you'll want something that pretty much fills the throat, I size to .226 and that works well in my rifle. There's a bunch of load data on this site so do a search and get ready for some interesting reading!!! I can tell you that you have probably picked one of the more challenging calibers to cast for, I often find myself wishing my fingers were smaller and my eyesight better!!

[zubrato]

Wanted to add a quick note: if this is your first time casting for rifle, sorting bullets and culling becomes really important. I don't cast for 223, although many times I consider and reconsider given my goals with 223 and the time to sort and cull boolits to gas check for the large amount I shoot.

I don't know how realistic 1.5 moa at 300 yards is, but I would venture a guess it's going to take some serious amount of work and effort expenditure to get there.

I'll wait for the other guys with experience to chime in, but I'd say your best shot would be a steel or brass mold, with a PID controller for your melt, and maybe Hi-tek coating your boolits after sorting within .2 to .5 of a grain after gas checking. I assume to keep the speed you need to get that accuracy at 300 you probably need some seriously hard lead, like linotype to keep your boolits from vaporizing upon exit.

At that point it's working up a powder charge that will cycle the bolt, and provide the accuracy you're looking for.

Now if your goals change, to say 3-4moa I think you'd be just fine with an aluminum mold, water quenched clip on wheel weights and culling to within a few grains. I'm sure there's guys who get great accuracy with this set up and regular lube, but unsure of the speed limit, depends really on your hardness, alloy, and experience.

Honestly man, there's no shortage of 223 or cheap accurate ammo. The only thing keeping me from casting for 223 is you need to cut the speed down quite a bit, which is really the magic ingredient for 223, not to mention the effort for a round that's pretty widely available.

But hey, I cast A LOT of 9mm and it's pretty much the cheapest centerfire pistol round you can buy, so it's about the love of the game. Hell, someday I'll try casting 223 just to say I did it.
Good luck dude, there's plenty of people doing it and lots of info around here if you dig around.

[altheating]

Sorry to hear that some of the whine asses are leaving this site. Most that have left really have nothing to offer anyway. They don't like that someone actually knows more about something than they do. As far as Larry, I have learned a lot from his posts. Yes some of his writings are way over my head and I sure they are way over other members heads too. And that may be why they disagree with him. Aw well, I'll keep reading till I understand it. To the little know it all piss pots I say, take the chip on your shoulder, your moulds and mallet and leave, you really won't be missed. I hope they impress people on some other forum where they can be top dog.

[Ford SD]

I do not do a lot of posting here, but it is my first sight i go to in the morning
like to day I have yet to have a cup of java

when i wanted to start casting for my m1a clone i started reading Bruce B Post
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3558-7-62x51-NATO-%28-308-WCF%29-in-the-Springfield-M1A

Lots of information there even sent Bruce a pm or 2

to understand it better I copied all 16 pages of it in to word ( so i could edit out and add information )
x mould =155g y mould = 180g you get the picture

Big font of the powders that worked /// small font of powder that did not

Green highlight for good information // red for bad information

Bruce was getting better results than I was so i did some research he was shooting a springfield 1/11 twist
I am shooting a 1/10 twist
= rpm difference

Bruce was trying Dacron --- So I read up on dacron

Larry has been talking about the rpm thing
so I read and try to retain as much as I can

Because of Larry I have purchased 2 -- 1/12 ar twist barrels for cast

Enough said I Hope

because of work I don't shoot a lot -- hope that changes soon
then I will be able to post more of my results

[8mmFan]

My sincere apology to anyone and everyone who has read my posts above, typed this a.m. No excuse for that. I consider this website a treasure trove of knowledge, and it's very rewarding to me to be able to learn and participate here.

I hid behind a keyboard and anonymously typed out things that didn't help the thread at all. I do think that people in our country are becoming way too sensitive and worried about how somebody saying something might "hurt feelings," but I could have just left all of that off of this thread. Instead I went and shot MY mouth off.

Thanks to each and every person at Cast Boolits. I've learned a lot here about an awesome hobby from very many of you. 8mmFan

[DR Owl Creek]

I was a lurker on this forum for well over a year before I joined. I went back through all the threads and "stickies" that interested me, and read EVERY one of them. That gave me a pretty good idea about who actually knew what they were posting about.

After I joined, I had a lot of questions about a lot of things, so I sent PM's to most of the self-appointed experts. One of the very few who ever bothered to answer my questions was Larry Gibson. He may not have always given me the answer I wanted, but he gave me an answer that was based on his long-time experience.

If anyone wants to actually learn something, and Larry is offering a class, I'd seriously recommend sitting in the front row and taking notes.

Dave

[MBTcustom]

Any body who says shooting cast out of an AR, getting sub MOA groups, and perfect cycling, is cheap, easy, fast, or something anybody can do is schmokin da good shtuff.

It's very possible to do, but I would worry that a new caster would become so disillusioned with it, that he would write off cast bullets all together and come to the same conclusion that so many have who bit off more than they could chew: Cast leads barrels. Cast is slow. Cast is not accurate enough to hit the berm regularly.
It's much better that one understands what they are getting into right up front in my humble opinion.

To the OP: Read carefully and take it one step at a time, and don't get discouraged! You need to learn a whole bunch of new skills and each one has a learning curve. If you have a 38Special revolver or a 1911 you could work with to get your feet wet, that would be a great place to get a bunch of the basics out of the way.
Welcome to the forum, and I apologize for the conduct of my fellow posters. The very fact that it's a heated subject underscores the fact that it is also not easily done by many here.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Good grief people, lets not attack each other !

Yes, I have deleted a pile of posts in this thread and given out some infractions.

The OP is showing an interest in a hobby we all love, some of us chose to help him...if you don't want to help out a person who is showing an interest in our beloved hobby,
then move along, nothing to see here.

[MaryB]

I have been playing with it in my 223 bolt rifle(makes a good squirrel round with a reduced load) because 22lr is so hard to come by. Haven't tried getting it to cycle AND be accurate in my AR yet.

[jld_in_IA]

Thanks all for the suggestions. It sounds like trying to work with the 223 in an AR platform is a tricky proposition for cast boolits. Far from impossible, but not necessarily the task for a beginner either. At present I cast for .38 spc/.357 mag and 45ACP. A good place to start from, but certainly not as demanding as the AR.

I think for now I will take the suggestions and cautions provided under advisement and consider loading for another caliber first, as a better learning platform. The 45-70 and 30-30 would seem to be naturals for the purpose as they were designed with cast boolits in mind. When I get some practice and results out of those, I may readdress the topic of the AR. For now, I can certainly keep feeding it with my favorite commercial j-words.

Thanks all

[Larry Gibson]

jld

Larry,

You make an excellent point that I was not very clear about my goals. To bemore reasonable about it, let's say 1 MOA at 100 yards, and 1.5 at 300. Therifle will do that with good jacketed, not too tuned, hand loads. If I can equal those results, I've met my goals, and if I can better them, that's a bonus.


Jld

Honestly, that’s going to be a tough goal to meet. As an example close to your rifle; for a number of years I’ve worked numerous cast bullet loads with several different cast bullet weights and designs through my Colt Comp Match AR with 20” heavy barrel having a 9” twist. I have a Leupold 3.5x10 very good scope on it (I also use Match sights of match rifle competition) and with a match load of Varget under the Sierra 69 gr MK the rifle will put 20 shots into moa at 100, 200 and 300 yards. The very best I could do with cast bullets was 20 shots into 2 moa orless at 100 and most of the time at 200 yards but at 300 yards 3 – 4 moa was the norm. For reliable functioning the muzzle velocity of that load was 2150 – 2200 fps. I tested the same load in a match AR with 8” twist and a standard issue M16A2 with 7” twist and accuracy was not as good comparatively with the 69 gr MK load as it was in the 9” twist AR.

The most successful cast bullet I’ve used to date in the .223 has been the Lyman Loverin design 225462. However, I have a GB mould, MP 227-65 that is holding a bit better promise than the 225462 in the AR but I’ve not done enough testing to say for sure yet.

Your goal is certainly a lofty one and you won’t know if you can do it if you don’t try. Understand though trying to accomplish your goal with cast bullets at jacketed velocities will probably prove very frustrating. Let me make a few suggestions because I believe you’ve the right idea how to get started.

First do some research and read the threads on the 30 XCB project. You will find some very good info in those on alloys and how to cast the really quality cast bullets needed for your goal. Next, do start with an easier to do rifle cartridge such as any .30 cal of .308W or 30-06 because there is lots of load info around and they will be easier to learn with especially if the have a rifle with a 10” twist. Learning with a 30 caliber cast bullet to shoot 1 – 2 moa consistently at 2100 – 2200 fps out of a 10”twist rifle will give you a very good idea of what is needed and what is additionally needed to do the same in an 8” twist 223 AR. It is simply a matter of learning what is required.

Please don’t hesitate to ask questions as no sense in you trying to re-invent the wheel so to speak. A lot of us have gone down the road you want to travel and have found some success. Perhaps not to the degree you want (or what we all probably wanted too! You should find, as we have, a useable degree of success at any rate.

LarryGibson

[Harter66]

I had considered;
Don't let them talk you out of it give it a go....
But then I thought back just a few yrs ago when I had read all of the naw its easy ya just..... posts .

I had this 06', with a Russian twist rate and a stupid long leade . While I didn't shoot a lot with that rifle it did lead to some valuable learning like how a 30-06 can have a boolit unsized at .316 be a drop in fit and only lead in the middle of the bore and have a clear lube star at the muzzle which was .299x .305. Oh the hours spent lovingly scrubbing the lead out of that 32 Remington, several lessons here about alloy and match-like chambers that may or may not allow normal sizing.

It is easy ,but you will have to "pay the dues" and tinker with things and probably absolutely leave mountains of lead in several bbls. Don't be afraid to jump in and try it ,but start somewhere that takes some of the complications out of it 1st . I'd suggest a lever or bolt gun that you can load down to getting the boolit out of the bore and be able to run it wide open evert me you think you have it all figured out . One day it'll all come together and bang you'll be shooting start load jacketed speeds with the level of accuracy that THE jacketed load shoots . When that happens in the beater $100 yard sale rifle you'll have all the tools you need to have a 2 MOA AR .

I think Larry and Goodsteel give the best advice .

My sort of original thought ,use all of the twist , make up all of the lost speed you can with weight . The cast boolit will be heavier per length than jacketed, that will help you down range horizontally it will also tend to raise BC . Be tempted (and flow her down that alley) to use slower than the normally slowest powders it works.

[1_Ogre]

John: Don't let them tell ya you can't do anything! I've been told that I can't reload for the Contender 223 either, but I'm still doin it and startin to come up with some reasonable squirrel loads. It can be done, just takes time and determination, but keep pluggin, you'll get there

[Larry Gibson]

Excuse me guys but I don't see where anyone is telling the OP "you can't do it". What I see is some helping the OP with realistic expectations, considerations and what is needed to give it a try. All I see anyone telling the OP is why the road may and will be difficult to achieving his goal. If any of you are shooting cast bullets out of 20" barreled ARs with 8" twists with reliable functioning of the action and holding 1.5 moa accuracy at 300 yards (I don't care what the velocity is) then please enter into the discussion with facts for the OP to see it can be done and learn how to do it by a good demonstration of how you have done it. Help us out here?

Larry Gibson

[bangerjim]

I cast and shoot 55gn (6 cavity) Bator and my new 55gn FP NOE brass (5 cavity). I really like the NOE mold (it looks like a REAL boolit profile!) and got tired of the little ugly round nose Bator things.

I shoot 22LR-ish load all the time with reduced loads and no GC's. Also shoot hotter loads with GC's. I powder everything to eliminate grease, smoke, and leading.

There is lots of reduced and full load powder data in the books. Buy some. Don't rely on a forum for your load data unless you already have the books to confirm it!

bangerjim

Have fun!

[MGnoob]

I really like the NOE mold (it looks like a REAL boolit profile!) and got tired of the little ugly round nose Bator things.
I agree with this so much,I'm still working with the round nose.

I shoot 62 grain cast from my m16. I felt I had gotten to a satisfactory level of accuracy..then I started doing batches of 8-10k projectiles at a time. With the smaller batches 1-4k I didn't weigh them and just lived with the fliers.
now i've reached a point where the final products can't hit a 12x12 at 100 yards

I like to think I was at 2-4" groups at 100 yards depending on the kind of shooting I was doing that day.
Which some may think isn't very good, but for belt fed use I would be perfectly happy with that.

I think my issue is I've gotten to soft with my alloy, I'm using too much powder trying to get my belt fed to function which wasn't nessisary.
Also I need to cull them better..I primarily used them in 10.5" and shorter ARs and now that I am in the 14.5 and 16" length combined with more powder the velocity is just too much.

OP, If your an excellent shooter,caster,reloader with a lot of time I'm sure you could get to you goal or at least close with extremely small tedious batches

Edit sorry OP I forgot to answer your question.

I use a custom 60 grain mold. It's very similar to the bator.
I DIY copper plate them to 62 grains
out of a 7.5" barrel 2400-2600 fps
out of a 16" barrel 2800 fps

[Harter66]

Ok ,
NOE 225-55 63 gr checked and lubed.
WW plus 1/2 # lino. A/C 3 weeks min.
Sized .225 Lee push through.
Modified Darrs lube.
H4198 19.0
CCI 41
2300 in 16" mid length gas ATI Omni Hybrid M4 3/15 man. . Bird cage M203 groove . .218x.223 . 223/556 NATO chamber.
I don't have and COAL there is nil crimp groove exposed trimmed to .005 under max case length . Boolits culled for square bases, bands and grooves w/o wrinkles or drips. Melt is 750-775 , I get 5-7 pours with more sprue than boolits and return the mould sprue plate down ,up,up,down ,up,up and so on , to a 375 degree hot plate .
The GC shank is tight in the new Hornady checks I seat with an aircraft rivet squeezing tool then size base 1st through a Lee 225 die .
Brass is short sized with a Lee sizer in an RCBS Partner press . This particular die leaves neck ID at .221 good for cast bad for jackets. I flair with a 20mm projectile drilled and tapped in the base for a 1/4 28 bolt and jam nut at a correct length for the depth of my drill press chuck cases are then flared on the drill press , allowing exact repeatable flairing . During the 1st prep and after later trimming I flair with the press running to polish the chamfer and mouth of the case .
Seating is accomplished with the Lee seating die . Since this is a flat nosed bullet I flipped the seating pin inside the die to give me a flat rather than the coned face . I believe this is a "dead length seating die" . I then use an RCBS seating die to apply a minor crimp but mostly to remove any flair . This combination results in a nil run out (I guess , it isn't visible to me).

The load and rifle shoot 75 yd groups slightly better than the PMC 55 gr FMJ factory ammo at 2-2.5 inches without having shot for target best groups but more for point of hold groups and consistent point of impact (see 5 MOA sight below).
Things I could do to improve the load .
ditch the $29 Red,Blue,Green dot 5 MOA 1x BSA optic.
4895 or 3031 might be better powder choices but choices are still fickle out here . This is a new rifle and I don't have a lot of time in with it , it could use some trigger polish also . I find the spring rattle in the extension very distracting also.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

jld_in_IA,
While I wanted to post about my experiences with shooting cast in 22 centerfire guns, I have almost no experience with them in a AR...and only had limited success in bolt action/single shot guns (I'm still working on it, in fact, I was out shooting 22 hornet last sunday and had poorer than expected results). So I have very little to off you.

What you will learn if and when you step into this, is the equipment you currently have is designed for jacketed rifle bullets. you need different tooling to load for cast or at least modify some stuff to make it cast friendly. When you read Harter66's post, you may see what I mean. Some tooling for loading cast rifle boolits is available commercially, but many times, a reloader doesn't know exactly what will work, so it's a trial an error type of process and can get expensive. Many of us being thrifty, we improvise as Harter66 has well documented. There are many ways of doing it and I'm guessing that we each have our own special tooling we've bought or made or had custom made by a machinist...but it's different from one caster to another. Hence the challenge.
Good Luck.



Ok ,
NOE 225-55 63 gr checked and lubed.
WW plus 1/2 # lino. A/C 3 weeks min.
Sized .225 Lee push through.
Modified Darrs lube.
H4198 19.0
CCI 41
2300 in 16" mid length gas ATI Omni Hybrid M4 3/15 man. . Bird cage M203 groove . .218x.223 . 223/556 NATO chamber.
I don't have and COAL there is nil crimp groove exposed trimmed to .005 under max case length . Boolits culled for square bases, bands and grooves w/o wrinkles or drips. Melt is 750-775 , I get 5-7 pours with more sprue than boolits and return the mould sprue plate down ,up,up,down ,up,up and so on , to a 375 degree hot plate .
The GC shank is tight in the new Hornady checks I seat with an aircraft rivet squeezing tool then size base 1st through a Lee 225 die .
Brass is short sized with a Lee sizer in an RCBS Partner press . This particular die leaves neck ID at .221 good for cast bad for jackets. I flair with a 20mm projectile drilled and tapped in the base for a 1/4 28 bolt and jam nut at a correct length for the depth of my drill press chuck cases are then flared on the drill press , allowing exact repeatable flairing . During the 1st prep and after later trimming I flair with the press running to polish the chamfer and mouth of the case .
Seating is accomplished with the Lee seating die . Since this is a flat nosed bullet I flipped the seating pin inside the die to give me a flat rather than the coned face . I believe this is a "dead length seating die" . I then use an RCBS seating die to apply a minor crimp but mostly to remove any flair . This combination results in a nil run out (I guess , it isn't visible to me).

The load and rifle shoot 75 yd groups slightly better than the PMC 55 gr FMJ factory ammo at 2-2.5 inches without having shot for target best groups but more for point of hold groups and consistent point of impact (see 5 MOA sight below).
Things I could do to improve the load .
ditch the $29 Red,Blue,Green dot 5 MOA 1x BSA optic.
4895 or 3031 might be better powder choices but choices are still fickle out here . This is a new rifle and I don't have a lot of time in with it , it could use some trigger polish also . I find the spring rattle in the extension very distracting also.

[runfiverun]

good post Harter66.

I do use IMR-4895 and it works well.
[paired with the rcbs 055-s or the HM-2 mold]
I just picked up some win-748 to duplicate another members loads with it, and will probably step back to some 4064 in the future.
I dunno what the accuracy at 300 yds is, but I hear the little boolits go tink on the steel bowling pins down there.
a jacketed bullet goes tink down there too, the 223 don't got enough energy at 300 yds to barely make a hole in the paper.
my 1-9 stag holds well under 2" at 100 yds, and my 1-8, 6-H will beat it by a margin.

is it easy? no.
but doing the home-work to get it done lead me through some interesting results in other rifles, and for sure broadened my horizons on what can or cannot be done with cast boolits in a rifle.
nobody here can give you the 100% sure fire recipe to make thinsg work in your rifle, nor hold your hand while you seat your boolits in brass improperly prepared for the task, or poorly fitted to your rife.
shooting cast to higher velocity is not simply a matter of doing one thing properly it is a matter of finding the procedures and gaining the knowledge as to which path to follow to success.

in every case I have had to follow a slightly different path to get to the finish line with a cast boolit high velocity accuracy solution.
I guess I wasn't smart enough to quit and blame my failure on the rifle.

[Harter66]

I should have written 1/2# of lino per 10# of WW .

Thank you gentlemen I take it as high praise. This has been a long sometimes very rough road . It seems sometimes like things just fall together and other times I have a bruised neck from banging my head against the wall. More things seem to fall together now than when I started.

I also make rods for an RCBS universal decapper to open and flair a case when I use enough of a particular cartridge to make it worth the time spent to fit the the bell to on the rod where it stops at the head .