HP vs Solid for SD

[Bzcraig]

Was reading the thread Goodsteel started on similar topic that is talking primarily about hunting which I eagerly read and enjoyed because I'm not a hunter (other than birds) and learned from.

I'd like to read what ya'll have to say about HP vs Solid for self defense. BUT there is one condition:
1) don't turn this into a discussion about factory vs reloads, that topic has been beat to death, always gets out of control and folks get their knickers in a knot. I will actually ask to have the thread removed because it gets that bad.

Here are some of the questions I'm thinking of:
1) do you have a preference for HP in one caliber and not another?
2) would you prefer solid large for caliber loads moving slower or faster HP's?
3) one form of HP over another? (penta, cupped, traditional, etc)
4) whatever else you'd like to add.

[sigep1764]

I cast solely for 9mm. I've only ever bought 9mm pistols. Had a couple 380s, but sold them when I started reloading to simplify things. When I reloaded j words, I loaded 115 hollowpoint rounds. When I started casting, I quickly found I liked the heavy for caliber boolits more and more because of the better recoil they provided. All that being said, once the mold became available to allow a 147 grain hollowpoint to be loaded in short throated pistols, I was all over it. So far, I've prolly casted close to 5k-6k of these little suckers and love the accuracy and recoil. I have yet to test expansion as I shoot at an indoor range. I'll be down at the lake in a couple weeks and will try them on some wet pack to really see what I'm working with.

[David2011]

I'm a 1911 guy. My first choice is .45 ACP anything but in the warmer months it's hard to hide. While I would prefer to carry a .45 with JHPs, I still believe a cast .45 SWC would do the job. It's hard to dress to conceal a full sized 1911 in the Southwest Desert summer.

OTOH, like many gunwriters confessed in an article I can't document offhand, they were all carrying 5 shot .38s and .357s. It isn't all about caliber. It's also about easy access to a carry gun. A 5 shot .38 in an Uncle Mike's neoprene sheath is indistinguishable from a wad of keys in my pocket to the trained observer. OK, my day job is in I.T. so I have a WAD of keys.

In the .38 I carry Hornady defensive ammo. I feel like the .38 in a 2" barrel needs all the help it can get. It rides in my strong hand front pants pocket and is concealable in any pants I own. I believe that in the event I would ever have to defend myself or companions the round count will be small. I believe that the presentation of a firearm may stop the fight as it did when my brother was attacked by three bad guys that were apparently unarmed, or if they were carrying they lost the will to fight when he shoved his full sized revolver in their faces.

My "car gun" is a .40, also loaded with Hornady defensive ammo. I feel like the bullet manufacturers know much more than I do about expansion in living tissue so I defer to their expertise. I also have an AR-15 carry gun that is in the car when I get near the Southern border. Living in SE New Mexico, that is a frequent occurrence. Defensive rounds are loaded with mil-spec bullets.

I'm not afraid to carry my own handloads. My Blackhawk in .45 Colt revolver has never seen a factory load and has put many wounded hogs down. I know it will do the job as well with a cast 452374 as it will a Hornady XTP. When I'm hunting or out in the desert and the sidearm is exposed, it's always the Blackhawk loaded with cast in the winter and 3 snake loads and 3 cast in the warmer months. The cast 452374 loads are from the "Ruger and Contender Only" section of the 49th Lyman manual so they are much stiffer than factory loads.

David

[Indiana shooter]

My EDC is an XD .40 and I keep factory 180 gr HST in the chamber. I have found them to cycle and shoot well in the gun. I also like what I have seen on the various terminal performance test that I have watched.

When I'm in the woods I carry a 44 mag vaquero with cast. There's nothing really big around here to worry about except for a stray dog or coyote, maybe a coydog, so I'm working on making some hp's to carry for that. To be honest I'll probably have the first shot a hp and the rest 265 gr RFN solids. Why? I don't know just cause I can and I got the mold, either would work.

[Digital Dan]

In the house, #6 birdshot, bore is irrelevant.
Out and about I carry JHP loads.

[MBTcustom]

I use soft lead solids, but you knew that already. LOL!

[Larry Gibson]

As an LEO firearms and officer survival instructor for many years along being a LEO investigator I investigated many, many shootings; officer involved and civilian only. With handgun cartridges of all calibers it became obvious which one, HP, SP or solid, was the most effective at ending the fight. That is why almost all LE agencies issue HP ammunition for their handguns regardless of the cartridge used. All of my own handguns and even my rifles used for self defense are loaded with HP ammunition.

However, most of the time I have hard cast SWC bullets in my handguns when on a walk about or going to and from the range when the handgun will be used for recreational shooting. Should the need for personal defense arise I will not hesitate to use what is in the gun as in that instance "choice" or "what is best" is not relevant, one must simply use what one has.

I have stated numerous times that hard cast SWCs or WFN bullets out of handguns are good killers of game and will use them if I've not the option for a good HP. I prefer HP'd cast bullets for game because they many times kill quicker. A good hit with an HP most often also incapacitates and ends/stops the anti-social behavior of the miscreant quicker in a self defense situation.

Anyone know of any LE agency that issues hardcast bullets for duty with their handguns? Probably a good reason for the answer.

Larry Gibson

[Lonegun1894]

For SD, I vote HP if available, but will (and have) use whatever happens to be handy and available. Now if this was a hunting discussion, the answer would be that it depends, but that's off topic. And just to get people thinking more, the HP is safer for bystanders and property due to the decreased likelihood of over-penetration. As to factory vs handloads, who cares? Carry what YOU trust, and it doesn't matter if I or anyone else has the same preference. It is what you or I do and WHY, and the tool, ammo, etc is just a minor factor in everything I have ever seen.

[rintinglen]

I use hollowpoints or pre-fragmented bullets--Glasers and the like--for all my defensive uses. In my 44 magnums for hunting, I use 429-421's as they penetrate better.
All things being equal, and it usually isn't, hollowpoint ammunition is a much better stopper than solid nose ammunition of whatever configuration, provided there is enough energy to expand the bullet. This has been studied to death since the 1970's and there is simply is no longer any reasonable doubt that a bullet that expends its energy in a miscreant's body is a better choice than one that exits with enough energy left over to kill the next guy in line.

[srd]

My carry guns have Hornady hollow points. My practice defense ammo is cast that duplicates the same velocity. Depending on where I am going I carry either a 44 Bull Dog ..Browning Hi Power in 9 mm or a Glock M37.

[Hickory]

I use hollowpoints or pre-fragmented bullets--Glasers and the like--for all my defensive uses. In my 44 magnums for hunting, I use 429-421's as they penetrate better.
All things being equal, and it usually isn't, hollowpoint ammunition is a much better stopper than solid nose ammunition of whatever configuration, provided there is enough energy to expand the bullet. This has been studied to death since the 1970's and there is simply is no longer any reasonable doubt that a bullet that expends its energy in a miscreant's body is a better choice than one that exits with enough energy left over to kill the next guy in line.

Like you, I have hunted and killed deer with the 429421 cast boolit at about 16/1 lead & tin and it does a good job. Lots of penetration. I've never recovered a boolit.
When the Lyman 429640 Devestator hit the market I bought a mold and tried it on deer.
The results were devastating on the first deer I shot. This boolit is truly the best boolit (in my opinion) that anyone can use on whitetail deer up to 50 yds. from a handgun.
Beyond 50 yds or if the animal had a thicker hide or full of grissle and bone the non hollow point would serve as a better choice.

[StrawHat]

...Anyone know of any LE agency that issues hardcast bullets for duty with their handguns? Probably a good reason for the answer ... Larry Gibson...

Larry,

Not trying to argue but, I was also in LE and I know of NO agency that issues any kind of cast bullet, hard or soft. All the agencies around here and other with which I am familiar issue some sort of factory jacketed bullet.

Personally, I prefer a WC boolit cast of a bit harder alloy, and launched about 900 fps, but I am a revolver kind of guy.

Kevin

[Blackwater]

One friend was the commander of the local state patrol post. He's 5'10" and of slender but very sturdy build. He was shot once with .45 ACP hardball, and said it felt like being hit in his shoulder with a hammer. He very nearly bled to death beside the interstate waiting on help to get to him. It hit below the collar bone and above the lungs, but it still took him out of the fight instantly. This is just one of the instances that convinced me of the value of large caliber, fairly heavy bullets at decent speeds. This guy was a real scrapper when the situation called for it, and for one ill placed slug to have taken the fight out of him shows clearly why the .45's have the reputations they do. No, nothing works 100% of the time, but the big bullets are much more reliable.

And as to the HP issue, when they work, they CAN be of value, but things like heavy winter clothing and intervening glass or other matter MAY at least sometimes take their precious advantage away from them. I'm going to a 230 gr. TCFP cast for my own uses in both .45 and .380 for that reason. Bullet placement, as with the case of sporting game, will always be the biggest variable, but most folks today don't want to practice, and seem to just want to convince themselves that as long as they carry the "best" loads, they don't have to. I wish these folks well against a real bad guy. They may well need it.

IMO, the factor of bullet placement outweighs all other factors combined, IF given sufficient penetration. That's my take on it anyway.

[jmort]

I like a large meplat for self-defense ammunition. Around 800 to 1,000 fps. 96/3/3 alloy. Even a 148 grain wadcutter will blow-through 18" of ballistic gelatin at 650 fps. Crazy straight-line penetration at only 650 fps. Very few self-defense shootings involve non-HP bullets with large meplats so a blanket statement that HP is always better does not wash with me. Even with a 9 mm, I like the penetration the meplat allows. I just got this mold from Accurate, and Ranch Dog's comments make sense:

"When I went to design the bullet, something in the 147-grain lead just wasn't working and optimum was at 135-grains. I have no doubt in the ability of the bullet in self defense shooting. I have killed a number of "man" size feral hogs with shots through the rib cage, behind the shoulder and the bullet does what it was intended to do."







http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/TLC357-135-RF-RD-/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_TLC357-135-RF_134_gr_Sketch.Jpg

BTW, there is a Group Buy at NOE on this. Go to NOE Forum and look for "last" call under Ranch Dog designs to sign up. This is a winner for sure.

[kenyerian]

http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/432-290-FN-432640-/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_432-275-FN_-HP-_275_gr_Sketch.Jpg
Can't wait to get this one. I trust hollow points for personnel protection . I carry a 38 but I keep a 44 in my dresser in case of Home Invasion.

[MBTcustom]

jmort, try cutting your alloy with pure lead until things start to cause you trouble, then go back up a little. I think you'll find you get almost to pure lead before you see much difference in the way it shoots at all.
Shoot some of those soft bullets into your ballistic gelatin, or your hogs.

[alamogunr]

http://noebulletmolds.com/photos/albums/TLC357-135-RF-RD-/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_TLC357-135-RF_134_gr_Sketch.Jpg

BTW, there is a Group Buy at NOE on this. Go to NOE Forum and look for "last" call under Ranch Dog designs to sign up. This is a winner for sure.

I guess it is too late. I couldn't find it.

[ole 5 hole group]

Bullet construction has come a long way over the past couple decades - both for hunting & self defense - in rifles, shotguns & handguns. I personally think the bonded hollow point is the best way to go, as I am not concerned about over-penetration.

If you decide to purchase bonded hollow points - just makes sure you know what you're purchasing, as some commercial ammunition out there is a bit misleading. Take Remington's Golden Saber, that is a bonded cartridge and a very good one, but it carries the designation BJHP and that has two completely different bullet type definitions relative to Remington bullets. BJHP can mean either Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point or Brass Jacketed Hollow Point. You need to know the manufacturers code for the bonded type. You cannot purchase Remington bonded bullets for reloading as they currently only sell the brass version as a reloading component. Both bullets have brass jackets but the non-bonded type will, at times, break up where the bonded stay together and retain 90 to 99% of their weight after full expansion.

Myself, I prefer the Speer Gold Dot - its a bonded bullet and can be purchased as a reloading component and I do carry with my reloaded 230 grain gold dots in the 1911 at a velocity of 915fps. They will fly at 983 fps if you feel a need for that speed as well.

The bonded bullet will give about the same penetration as the cast bullet but with a greater wound cavity - depending of course upon the cast design. The smaller meplat cast will penetrate a little more but the wound channel will be considerable less - both in temporary and permanent wound cavity. The bonded bullet is also a very good all around hunting bullet as well when compared to the cast - about the only downsize that I know of relative to the bonded bullet is the cost - but well worth it in my opinion for whatever that's worth.

[Bzcraig]

I guess it is too late. I couldn't find it.

Took me a minute to find it, but here's the link:
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,856.0.html

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Not trying to argue but, I was also in LE and I know of NO agency that issues any kind of cast bullet, hard or soft. All the agencies around here and other with which I am familiar issue some sort of factory jacketed bullet.

Personally, I prefer a WC boolit cast of a bit harder alloy, and launched about 900 fps, but I am a revolver kind of guy.

Kevin

Kevin

No argument here either. I had considered that but read the OP's post several times to make sure I was reading it right but maybe I wasn't. My response was based on the fact the OP does not mention cast or jacketed bullets separately or specifically in his question. The questions seemed simple enough;

Here are some of the questions I'm thinking of:
1) do you have a preference for HP in one caliber and not another?
2) would you prefer solid large for caliber loads moving slower or faster HP's?
3) one form of HP over another? (penta, cupped, traditional, etc)
4) whatever else you'd like to add.

Thus considering the title of the thread (HP vs Solid for SD) I tried to stay within that topic. I do try to stay on topic in a thread as much as I can, just me is all.

Perhaps my response just falls under the OP's question #4? I don't have a problem with WCs or even SWCs. Back "in the day" when most all officers carried 38 SPLs or 357s in revolvers I never felt under gunned with the 357 Winchester Lubaloy or Remington SWCs. Other than severe leading after a cylinder full they were at least full 357 Magnum level loads and were effective not like most of the watered down 357 Magnum loads these days. On one department we were issued 38 SPLs and were issued Remington SWCs but then transitioned to the Winchester 150 LSWCHP +Ps which proved a much better 38 SPL round. I initially carried Remington 38 SPL WCs in my back up 38 Chief's SPL on the advice of George Nonte, Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton However when we went to the 150 LSWCHP's I used those. When I transitioned to a SO I was able to carry a M1911 and was issued the original Speer 200 gr HP "FAT" rounds for it. They were about the best 45 ACPs at the time.

When in a strictly "off duty" mode I had issue ammo in my off duty. BTW; I carried a Colt Combat Commander "off duty" and either carried Factory ammo it it then. However, most often when off duty hunting, fishing, shooting or some other recreational activity my revolver or semi-auto handgun I was carrying was most often loaded with my own cast reloads, usually SWCs. I had it put into 2 departmental regs covering officer involved shooting incidents under those conditions that the use of whatever firearm and ammunition the officer had at the time was justified for use. Didn't matter under Oregon laws covering those situations but until then the use of other than issue ammunition was prohibited by most departments. That could and did cause some severe problems for the officers involved and some civil litigation for the departments involved.

As you mention most all issue ammunition for LEO's is now jacketed HPs or copper plated HPs. The technology of which makes them very reliable at expansion in soft tissue these days. That's why when I have my handguns and rifles in a strictly SD mode they have HPs in them. Otherwise I most often have cast or jacketed bullets of just about any bullet type as I like to shoot a lot and experiment a lot.

Larry Gibson

[GhostHawk]

Well I may be the odd man out but I don't bother with HP for my own cast bullets, or at least have not to this point.
Who can say what the future brings.

There is really only one cartridge that I shoot that I prefer to have in hollow points and that is ammo for the CZ-52 or 7.62x25 tok.
It is a hot little round, gets good penitration, and my own cast are fine for practice. But if it came to the brown smelly stuff hitting the fan shooting at targets that shoot back, I would feel better with hollow points in that.

For everything else, I am just as secure, or feel thus with a good cast bullet, fairly soft. Nice big flat meplats are nice where available.

To me when it comes down to these kinds of discussions they are interesting. But I feel like bullet placement and being able to put 8 into the same coffee cup sized group at indoor ranges is probably more important than any thing else.

After all, if in the heat of the moment, you can put 2 shots into the same eyeball at across the room distances. Does anything else really matter that much?

[Lonegun1894]

" I had it put into 2 departmental regs covering officer involved shooting incidents under those conditions that the use of whatever firearm and ammunition the officer had at the time was justified for use."

Larry,
Thank you very much. I have been trying to get just that passed in my dept, but like the way you just phrased it. Mind if I steal it?

[Larry Gibson]

Lonegun1894

Be my guest, glad to help.

Larry Gibson

[Blackwater]

Given a .357 or bigger, I like HP's, and a significant part of that is simply because in many potential scenarios, I don't want too much excessive penetration, plus the "energy dump" as it's commonly referred to is better, comparatively. It also tends to provide shrapnel like offshoots sometimes, which widens the wound, which CAN, given sufficient penetration and energy dump, provide quicker stops. This seems to be reflected in street stats available now, and has also been confirmed by a couple of pathologists I've had opportunity to talk to. With so many on drugs, and maybe particularly meth and like drugs, "shock to the nervous system" just doesn't always work, however, and this is a variable that we may increasingly encounter these days. The state of adrenaline level is as well. Overall, expansion (HP's) is usually an asset, but ONLY, IMO, if you already have sufficient penetration to ensure vital organs and nerves are destroyed so they can't be used against you. Flat pointed HP's, as in SWCHP's, MAY (?) be the best of the lot, and most HP's have some sort of flat for their noses anyway, but the most vital element, IMO, is sufficient penetration and damage to organs and tissue, which are enhanced by FP's, whether they're HP'd or not. Just my take based on what experience I've had, and some with folks in a position to have seen even more than I have.

[fredj338]

Back in the day, the 38sp ruled LEA, all with soft lead bullets. Obviously it was lacking, most went to a LSWCHP. I would never choose a solid when a HP was available, lead or jacketed. I want max tissue damage & prefer the bullet to no exit with much vel left. A LHP gives you that.
I don't handload for SD ammo, never saw the point, but for special instances, like 44mag from field to town. If I lived in a non HP location, then a handloaded, soft LFP would be better than FMJRN.

[BAGTIC]

Different strokes for different folks. I want the bullet to exit to enhance blood loss and lung collapse. Also, if a bullet does not guarantee complete penetration under optimum conditions what can be expected if there is added protection from heavy clothing, sheet metal, furniture, etc.

[Indiana shooter]

what can be expected if there is added protection from heavy clothing, sheet metal, furniture, etc.

According to the test that I have watched and done myself a clothing barrier delays expansion and decreases the velocity for expansion. What that translates to is a less rapid "dump" of energy and increased penetration.

A bullet will react differently to different barriers at different angles, not to mention that nothing is ever guaranteed but for the most part barriers not found on the person (car doors, drywall, 2x4s, auto glass and such) either clog or deform the hp to the point that expansion is extremely limited or just non-existent. Both scenarios results in increased penetration potential, comparable to that of a fmj.

Of course all of the above scenarios were tested with JHP bullets NOT HP cast boolits. That could make a huge difference if the cast HP is soft enough to expand with impact alone and not rely on hydraulics to open them up like there jacketed counterparts.

[fredj338]

To me when it comes down to these kinds of discussions they are interesting. But I feel like bullet placement and being able to put 8 into the same coffee cup sized group at indoor ranges is probably more important than any thing else.

After all, if in the heat of the moment, you can put 2 shots into the same eyeball at across the room distances. Does anything else really matter that much?
except most honest shooters can NOT do such shooting at speed, in the dark, while the target & shooter are moving. Why anything you can do to stack the odds in your favor is to your advantage. Anything that increases the damage to the attacker is a good thing.

[rintinglen]

One friend was the commander of the local state patrol post. He's 5'10" and of slender but very sturdy build. He was shot once with .45 ACP hardball, and said it felt like being hit in his shoulder with a hammer. He very nearly bled to death beside the interstate waiting on help to get to him. It hit below the collar bone and above the lungs, but it still took him out of the fight instantly. This is just one of the instances that convinced me of the value of large caliber, fairly heavy bullets at decent speeds. This guy was a real scrapper when the situation called for it, and for one ill placed slug to have taken the fight out of him shows clearly why the .45's have the reputations they do. No, nothing works 100% of the time, but the big bullets are much more reliable.

And as to the HP issue, when they work, they CAN be of value, but things like heavy winter clothing and intervening glass or other matter MAY at least sometimes take their precious advantage away from them. I'm going to a 230 gr. TCFP cast for my own uses in both .45 and .380 for that reason. Bullet placement, as with the case of sporting game, will always be the biggest variable, but most folks today don't want to practice, and seem to just want to convince themselves that as long as they carry the "best" loads, they don't have to. I wish these folks well against a real bad guy. They may well need it.

IMO, the factor of bullet placement outweighs all other factors combined, IF given sufficient penetration. That's my take on it anyway.

While I totally concur with the need to practice--no one I ever talked to who had been in a real fire fight wished they'd practiced less--I dispute the notion that because hollowpoints might fail, don't use 'em at all. IMO, this is throwing the baby out with the bath water. When the hp works, it works better, if it plugs up, and doesn't expand, it still is no worse than the WFN. Ranch Dog's hunting experience with hog's does not translate to self defense. A bullet that kills may be ok while hunting, a bullet that stops is superior when you are shooting for your life.

[Hickory]

When the hp works, it works better, if it plugs up, and doesn't expand, it still is no worse than the WFN. Ranch Dog's hunting experience with hog's does not translate to self defense. A bullet that kills may be ok while hunting, a bullet that stops is superior when you are shooting for your life.

This is advice you can take to the bank.

[Walkingwolf]

1 shot placement
2 personal choice
3 personal responsibility
4 shot placement

A missed shot does not stack in the defender's favor, IMO people count to much on fluff, and not enough on the basics. Put a 22 short solid in the noggin and the threat will stop. Shoot a dozen bullets everywhere but the threat, and it will probably be the last time.