Why shoot HP cast bullets?

[MBTcustom]

Disregarding the fact that they look "kewl", "like, totally wicked", and make pretty mushrooms that people like to recover from things they didn't punch through.

Before you say that the killing power is so much enhanced, please remember you are talking to a guy who regularly shoots ridiculously soft bullets at higher velocities, and follow the link in my signature line.

My question is, given the stated cosmetic assets listed above, and the detriments of not being able to shoot through your target, breaking off petals, inconsistent exit location, and just a general PITA to cast,
Why would you use a HP bullet?
Why not just cast of a soft alloy with a big nasty flat point, and use a GC if you absolutely must?

Belly up to the keyboard, and explain to me why I should ever consider using HP bullets rather than my soft cast.

[Schrag4]

If they really mushroom and don't punch through then they'll do more damage in most cases. NOT punching through means ALL of the energy ended up in the target. Depends on how far they penetrate, of course.

I've heard that people shoot plated HP bullets because they're more accurate - they don't even expand so accuracy the only difference. Only meant for shooting paper.

[richhodg66]

In my experience deer hunting with .30 and .35 Caliber rifles, a hollow point isn't really necessary. Punch a hole through both lungs and they go down pretty fast. All mine were with pretty soft alloy bullets, never recovered one and exit holes weren't that impressive (except one) so not real sure if I got much expansion or not.

That being said, I want to use a 7mm-08 rifle my lovely wife gave me for Christmas and to that end, got an old 287308 that was hollow pointed. I adjusted the pin to make a HP about 1/4 inch deep and cast a batch up out of 50/50 COWW to pure with 2% of the COWW tin added (I call this Larry Gibson alloy since he turned me onto it). Maybe a hollow point still isn't necessary, but the smaller bore I go, the more concerned I get about energy transfer and the size of the exit hole for bleeding one out and leaving a trail. I haven't shot any of these yet, let alone done any expansion tests, but I usually try for a double lung shot and rarely break any big bones, just ribs, so I think this bullet will work well. Hope to have some real field reports on it by Winter.

[bhn22]

It's not always desirable for a bullet to "punch" through a target (animal) unimpeded and penetrate anything that lies beyond that target until all of its energy is expended.

[MBTcustom]

It's not always desirable for a bullet to "punch" through a target (animal) unimpeded and penetrate anything that lies beyond that target until all of its energy is expended.

OK, I've never been in this situation myself, but assuming I was, why not use a pure lead bullet at reduced velocities?
Also, good luck with that when shooting a 45-70 or a 358 Winchester loaded with 400gr and 285gr bullets respectively.

Further, if we are talking about hunting, no shot should ever be taken without knowledge of your backstop, HP bullet or otherwise.

What is the advantage? What can a HP do that cannot be done with a soft bullet?

[Electric88]

I've never heard that plated hollow points don't expand

[Ihsarah]

I would say the main use of HP's is for self defense, of course that's a moot point for me because I keep factory HP's with my gun for just that case. The main reason is that I don't want to be made out as a kook if I have to shoot someone and I use a handmade round and because there are too many variables with cast boolits for me to be comfortable with them in a life and death situation. Other than that I can't see much difference and personally stick to SWC's or round nose for targets or hunting.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What about self-defense ?

Am I way off track, thinking the SHOCK of a soft alloy, well expanded HP on the human body would provide more stopping power than a same caliber, large meplat boolit that doesn't expand nearly as much ?


edited: opps, looks like I type too slow ;)

[Beagle333]

You pretty much took me out of it with your first sentence. I only cast em because I like the way they look. :D A fat meplat would do everything I want, and I do cast those as well. :cool: Given my location, I also have no need to cast more than two calibers, but I do. I like options.
But there's no reason for you to cast HP's.

[MBTcustom]

You pretty much took me out of it with your first sentence. I only cast em because I like the way they look. :D A fat meplat would do everything I want, and I do cast those as well. :cool: Given my location, I also have no need to cast more than two calibers, but I do. I like options.
But there's no reason for you to cast HP's.

Funny, I expected you to come on and remind me of how nice it is to have a HP to hold the bullets with while ES powder coating them, which I will admit is a functional reason to use them.

As far as the SD issue goes, I see a real purpose for having a HP on a jacketed bullet that needs all the help it can get to experiance any expansion whatsoever, but not with a cast bullet.
The 45ACP will almost stop inside a big american perp wearing thick clothing even when shooting FMJ ammo. I feel the soft lead bullet is more than enough for that purpose.
The 40S&W and 9mm could be a candidate that could benefit I suppose because the pressures have a tendancy to require a certain alloy in order to run correctly.
To that, I say:
A. PC the suckers and use what you want.
B. Use a GC design and git-er-done.
I still see a soft cast bullet as being superior, and consider a HP to be a source of bullet failure.

If I wanted to put bullets in something, but not through it, I would use a 25ACP. Personally, I want the bullet to punch all the way through and fall on the ground 10 yards behind what just got shot. That's perfect IMHO, and I don't need a HP in order to do that.

At the moment, I see a HP as a way to further complicate my casting, loading, shooting, and hunting. All I care about is results in application, so what's the advantage?
If anything, I see the HP as something that some people think looks kewl that can be worked around in order to effectively duplicate soft cast lead performance, while adding a lot of fussing to the process.

If you see things differently, I would like to be convinced.
What can a HP do that cannot be done with a soft bullet?

[Wayne Smith]

I donno, Tim, I think you hit it for me in your first post. My pentagonal HP's really do look kewl and they are no harder to cast in Miha's mold. My carry is a Colt Agent loaded alternatively with HP and solid. I pray to God that I never find out which is more effective.

[44man]

I have to side with Goodsteel here. I do not carry or shoot people so I want full penetration on game.
Giving up more energy by stopping is a hoax. Deer I shot with HP's went much, much farther and most times with no blood trails. I gave that stuff up. True I had to soften some of the nose on my .500 JRH.
Now one thing about HP's, in many cases they are more accurate. How much it means in revolvers, I don't know but XTP's could not be equaled. I am right with them with my WLN and WFN though.
I seen a larger difference with rifles.

[fredj338]

If you can get a soft lead solid to shoot well & it expands some, then it's good to go. It is easier to get a slightly harder alloy HP to shoot well & still expand some IMO. I favor cup points to deep HP. They tend to mushroom & not fragment. We are talking handgun vel or lower rifle vel, like 45-70, but it's an option that does work. In small bore rifles, nice to get the wound bigger if you don't sacrifice penetration. If it didn't expanding bullets would never have been deemed appropriate, legal or better for taking game. For self defense at service round vel, HP a no brainer.

[cainttype]

OK... I'll play "Devil's advocate"
First off, why do we use an HP that can't be counted on to exit for any purpose? It's easy enough to get expansion and penetration if needed.
In a defensive roll, a reliable penetrating HP projectile has a better chance of disrupting the CNS (spine) with a center hit simply because of diameter (better chance of disrupting arteries, too). Lightweight zippers often fail to have the penetration capabilities to benefit from center-mass CNS strikes, altogether.

Hunting... A projectile that exhibits "perfect" performance (whatever your definition happens to be on the intended target) at 20 ft from your deerstand is unlikely to perform similary at 200 yds, especially at the velocities most people associate with cast lead... Nosler Partitions were the jacketed version of attempting to answer that question.

Not being a fan of deep HPs for most things, I have to admit to being fond of the cup-nose versions available today (NOE does lots of them) of classic RNs. I think that if ranges are extended, especially with calibers considered medium or small, the cup-nose and shallow HPs could prove to be a real advantage on some of the heavy-for-caliber casts so many people prefer.

That being said, I could be perfectly content with a good alloy, a good FN, and a good comprehension of my own limitations with them.

[MBTcustom]

If you can get a soft lead solid to shoot well & it expands some, then it's good to go.

I do shoot lead of appropriate softness, and in fact, sometimes I miss it and it works a little too well (see the link in my sig line).

It is easier to get a slightly harder alloy HP to shoot well & still expand some IMO.

I have spent a very large portion of time on this forum showing people how easy it really is to shoot softer alloys accurately. Several stickys written by me are dedicated to the process. Do several very simple things and it all falls into place.

I favor cup points to deep HP. They tend to mushroom & not fragment. We are talking handgun vel or lower rifle vel, like 45-70, but it's an option that does work.

I would submit to you that a LFN with softer alloy does as well and/or better.

In small bore rifles, nice to get the wound bigger if you don't sacrifice penetration. If it didn't expanding bullets would never have been deemed appropriate, legal or better for taking game. For self defense at service round vel, HP a no brainer.

I'm afraid you are comparing jacketed thinking to cast bullets. The copper jacket reinforces the lead bullet and the only thing it does better than allow the bullet to shoot fast, is shut down expansion in a very bad way. All the HP, ballistic tip, scored jackets etc etc etc have been an attempt to reclaim some of what was lost when getting away from shooting bullets that were all "core" and nothing else.
Of course they are recommended for hunting. They are referring to jacketed bullets.

I do not currently believe that a HP bullet has any real and measurable advantage over a flat nose soft cast lead bullet, and in fact, I believe it is much more susceptible to failure. It is a strange occurrence for a standard soft cast bullet to exit game with less than 98% weight retention, but it's very rare for a HP to duplicate this performance.

[Beagle333]

Funny, I expected you to come on and remind me of how nice it is to have a HP to hold the bullets with while ES powder coating them, which I will admit is a functional reason to use them.


It is kinda handy for PC'ing tall rifle boolits to be able to put them on nails, but I only do that with the very tall .35 cals. All other HP's just get baked on my trays. I'm not a believer of the base needing any coating. I see a lot more people using the transfer-after-spray method now too, so the HP isn't even absolutely needed with the tall coated boolits. :cool:

[Larry Gibson]

My question is, given the stated cosmetic assets listed above, and thedetriments of not being able to shoot through your target, breaking off petals,inconsistent exit location, and just a general PITA to cast,
Whywould you use a HP bullet?

First of all it’s a mistaken andvery incorrect opinion often voiced that HP’d cast bullets, don’t exit, breakup on the shoulder or gristle and lack “penetration. Use an improper bullet of any type and youcan have poor results. However, use anappropriate cast bullet of the proper alloy with a proper HP cavity and the endresults excellent expansion without excessive bullet weight loss and throughand through penetration. I’ve posted onthis numerous times before. This timejust go to the hunting with cast bullets subforum and read the current runningthread started by the OP from Australia. He’s using the Lyman Devastator in a 44 magnum rifle and killing largehogs quite nicely with no lack of penetration. Actually he’s using COWW alloy which I don’t particularly care for withHPs. The petals are blowing off but therest of the bullet continues for through and through penetration very much likea Nosler Partition bullet. Anyone careto argue on the effectiveness of the Nosler Partition?

I’d prefer a softer binary alloywith no antimony in it of 16 – 1 lead – tin for use in my own 44 Devastators inmy 44 Magnums.

I also prefer HP’d castbullets of softer alloy in rifle cartridges up through .35 caliber. Cast ofappropriate alloys I’ve found 7mm, 30, 31, 8mm and 35 caliber bullets that areappropriately HP’d expand very well in deer and pigs when shot at 1800 – 2200 fpsmuzzle velocities. These give excellentterminal performance from 150 – 200 yards. Why? Because it is a fact thatsuch smaller caliber bullets that expand kill quicker and more efficiently. That’s why game laws prohibit the use of FMJsfor hunting.

I prefer to kill the gameanimal as quickly as possible. I do notcare to see or be part of a lingering death. Been there and done that too many times in the past and just don’t carefor it anymore. I don’t mind killing animals but I’ve just come to prefer to doit as quickly as possible, if that means 2 more lbs of hamburger then sowhat. No criticism against anyoneelse. We all make our own choices forwhatever reasons and your choices are fine with me. I just prefer to kill as quickly as I can andHP’d cast bullets most often do that, especially with the smaller calibercartridges with cast bullets.

Why not just cast of a soft alloy with a bignasty flat point, and use a GC if you absolutely must?

Big calibercast bullets with nasty noses work just fine. However many who hunt don’t have such larger caliber cartridge guns orcan’t handle the recoil of such. Theychoose to use smaller calibers. So what’sthe problem with making the bullets of the smaller calibers more effectiveterminally?

Actually havingshot numerous deer, pigs and elk with my Siamese Mauser 450-400-70 (45-70) overthe years with assorted difference cast bullets of different nose configurationI can say the choice of alloy hardly makes a difference nor does the shape ofthe nose, especially on deer. The worseblood shot deer front quarters I’ve ever had (including with HV jacketedbullets) was with the 457483 cast of COWWs (old ones of 40 years ago) andloaded to 1550 fps (yes I had an Oehler chronograph 40 years ago). That one shot ruined the front shoulders of 2deer with one shot with that bullet (a nice RN BTW). The second deer was 30 ft behind and directlybehind. Both deer were shot through and through and dropped in theirtracks.

To the contraryI’ve lost 3 deer shot with a 311041 shot out of 30-30s at 2000 fps. The bullets were also cast of the same oldCOWWs. Two were lost in the thick rainforest of the PNW when it was raining. Idid not find the deer for 3 -5 days which by that time they were no good. Both were shot with “behind the shouldershots” and traveled 75 – 100+ yards before lying down to die. Due to the rain washing the blood away (bothshots through and through btw) and the vegetation color and few tracks tofollow I did not find them. The thirddeer with a similar shot was shot again by another hunter about 100 yardsaway. The 4th deer I lost waswith a hard cast (probably the same COWWs) 428421 over 22 gr 2400 out of a 6”revolver (about 1400 fps). That shot wasa frontal quartering shot and the bullet went through the top of the heart andout the back of the offside rib cage. The deer humped, turned and ran about 70 – 80 yards before another hunterblasted him with a high powered rifle.

Yes I hadnumerous “success” shots with the deer dropping within 25 yards with those samebullets but I had learned a lesson; they al didn’t drop and I’d lost 4 deer.....2of which really bothered me as they were wasted. I then got a 411041 HP mould and the ForsterHP tools and began experimenting with better alloys and HPs to give betterexpansion and quicker killing with those smaller caliber cartridges. I have killed many more deer, pigs and elksince then and quite a few domestic animals and have not lost anotheranimal. I’ve not had any animal shotwith such a HP to travel more than 40 yards with most that just jump or staggerto 20 – 25 yards at the most.

I find .357 tobe about the cut off where HPing does not really appreciably make muchdifference.

So that’s why Ichoose to use HP’d cast bullets with a proper HP cast of a proper alloy. Also it is not any harder to cast a good HPbullet with a single cavity mould than it is with any solid single cavitymould. The problem with many is they can’tcast quality solid bullets from multiple cavity moulds let alone thecomplicated multiple cavity HP moulds we see today. I cast all my HP’d castbullets with single cavity moulds or use the Forster HP tool and have noproblems. Yes it is slow but how many HP’dcast bullet loads do you really need and use for hunting?

Larry Gibson

[bdicki]

I always thought that the hollow point changed the distribution weight from the front of the boolit to the rear helping to stabilize it. All of the match bullets I've seen are hollow points. And they look cool.

[MBTcustom]

I always thought that the hollow point changed the distribution weight from the front of the boolit to the rear helping to stabilize it. All of the match bullets I've seen are hollow points. And they look cool.

This is very true, and I'll give you that as a very well made point. But most of the HP molds out there are tailored for hunting and SD, not target shooting, and I can tell you that if you care to achieve consistent weights in your bullets, the style of HP pin retainer makes a huge differance.

[MBTcustom]

Larry, I would throw away that batch of COWW, and use something else. That's some seriously jinxed lead!

I think it's a big problem to use an alloy that is too hard, and that has been being preached as gospel for longer than I've been alive.
Air cooled 50-50 COWW/pure is perfectly suitable for standard hunting velocities. After 2 years, some of my 35-200-FN still measure 9BHN, and like I said, I was shooting them 2200FPS in a 14 twist barrel, and I know I can do 1850FPS in a 10 twist. I don't know anybody who shoots alloy that soft at those velocities (although they should), and if the alloy has been water dropped and aged more than a week, the bullets will pencil right on through a deer.
However, shoot the deer through the heart, and it cannot go far. If it's raining, I take head shots because tracking is a joke in the wet stuff.

That said, I appreciate your comments, and that is a very convincing argument.

[bdicki]

This is very true, and I'll give you that as a very well made point. But most of the HP molds out there are tailored for hunting and SD, not target shooting, and I can tell you that if you care to achieve consistent weights in your bullets, the style of HP pin retainer makes a huge differance.

I have a few hollow point mold but would never think of using them for hunting. I prefer a heavy for caliber with a wide meplat for my revolvers.

[AnthonyB]

I am a HP fan. I've never hunted anything larger than deer, and I won't take anything other than a lung shot. Hunting is sport, and I will not go hungry if I don't score.
I think we have proven HP cast bullets are more accurate than the standard versions - see the multiple posts from Beagle on his experiments. I can get jacketed level expansion and boolits that hold together (in paper, never recovered one from an animal) with WW and a little added tin, or use straight WW and get the Nosler Partition results Larry talked about (in paper, never recovered one from an animal).
Besides that, Skeeter was a HP fan. That's good enough for me.
Tony

[MBTcustom]

Besides that, Skeeter was a HP fan. That's good enough for me.


Touch'e


For the record, I did not start this thread to argue for the sake of arguing. Much of what I do, is done the way I do it because I have considered three ways (if available) and chose the one that seems perfect to me.
I started this thread to reexamine the HP issue, because I feel I may have been too hasty when I struck it from my personal method.

I have noticed the ballistic advantage of having a HP in place. Concerning hunting applications, Im dead set against it, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Larry Gibson gave a very good account of FN vs. HP in a side by side comparison over many years.
Is there anyone else who has had similar experience?

Obviously, when shooting bullets of very heavy and robust construction (which is where I usually end up) the HP has less of a positive effect, but what about bullets less than 358 in caliber, and less than 200 grains in weight?
Would anyone here go as far as to say it is clearly advantageous to shoot HP style bullets?

[Schrag4]

I've never heard that plated hollow points don't expand

I'm talking about plated pistol HP bullets, and everything I've read/seen on the subject is that they don't expand, that they're not intended to expand, just that they provide superior accuracy. I haven't tried them for myself. I suspect at rifle velocities, things change quite a bit.

[AnthonyB]

Tim:
I think Elmer would disagree with Skeeter, even though Lyman HP'd his designs. Would you like some HPs to play with? I can send some 358429 HP (I know it should be marked 358439) that are amazing in wet newspaper.
Tony

[MBTcustom]

Tim:
I think Elmer would disagree with Skeeter, even though Lyman HP'd his designs. Would you like some HPs to play with? I can send some 358429 HP (I know it should be marked 358439) that are amazing in wet newspaper.
Tony

Thank you Anthony, but I'll pass. I sold my 357 a couple years ago (honestly, I'm burned slap out on that cartridge, and if I don't shoot another 357 in 2 more years, I'll be fine with that.)
I'm going to be hunting with the 35XCB, 45-70, and 44 Mag this year.
I have to admit though, a HP/SWC sounds like double trouble for anything you shoot with it. The shoulder on that bullet will prevent too much weight loss from broken petals, and it will punch on through no matter what. Seems like a wad cutter with a sacrificial nose on it.

[AnthonyB]

Tim:

PM an address and I'll send you a HP care package in 35, 44, and 45.
Tony

[xacex]

Why do I cast and shoot H/P's? Well, increases accuracy, and permanent wound cavity. Can I do it with a boolit with a good meplat?, sure but I prefer the H/P boolits, and with a good mold they are just as easy to cast. Speaking of tissue damage imagine this one spinning to a stop. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71431&d=1403158907&thumb=1

[MT Chambers]

At over 100 years old, Lyman's 457122, the Gould hollowpoint is the most killingest deer bullet ever, and was proven when there was a lot of experimentation with cast bullets. Pretty hard to overturn 100 years of deer killin'.

[Wayne Smith]

At over 100 years old, Lyman's 457122, the Gould hollowpoint is the most killingest deer bullet ever, and was proven when there was a lot of experimentation with cast bullets. Pretty hard to overturn 100 years of deer killin'.
Yeah, but it also has the advantage of a .457 diameter, too!

Tim, I'll go along with you but add one fillup - I will hunt with smaller caliber boolits but the hunting versions of the boolits are Beagle soft point versions. About 1/3rd of the length is pure. Seems to me the best of both worlds. Hard to do, but, as was stated, how many do you need?

[Yodogsandman]

I don't hunt with cast boolits...yet and would like to transition over to them. I want the same characteristics that I like in a jacketed bullet for deer. I want a bullet that penetrates completely through a side shot with a release of secondary projectiles in case of a marginal hit. I hunt in thick brush and deflections happen. I want a bullet that will anchor a deer, DRT with a chest shot. I'm leaning heavily towards using a 30 cal, HP cast boolit, cast with 50/50 alloy, HT'd and shot at 2000-2200 FPS. Say, a Ranch Dog 311-165 HP'd.

Around here, moose is our bigger stuff to hunt. They require much deeper penetration to get to the vitals than any deer. A cast boolit may have to break through the ball of the shoulder, depending on angle. There I'd want to use a 35 cal +, heavy for caliber, flat nose cast with COWW's and 1% Sn, HT'd and shot at 2200-2400 FPS. No HP would be wanted or needed. I have a NEI 358 282 GC at 301gr that fit's that bill. A 358009 would be "good nuff", too.

[Digital Dan]

I always thought that the hollow point changed the distribution weight from the front of the boolit to the rear helping to stabilize it. All of the match bullets I've seen are hollow points. And they look cool.

Moving CG aft by hollow point design does not do anything favorable to bullet stability. If all else is equal it has an adverse effect. What one gains in having hollow point jacketed bullets for match competition is a more uniform nose form.

On the point of the OP, I'm not a fan of HP bullets or hard alloy for hunting. Don't care all that much for high velocity either, but I'm not shooting across canyons.

.44 Mag, 300 grains pure PB, 1600 fps at the muzzle. The bullet has a .25" flat nose meplate. Deer crashed following a hearty lunge.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)

I've another sample that went thru about 30" of hog, point of the shoulder to under the hide on the offside ham. Looks about the same, he dropped like lightning had struck. Retained weight in both bullets in the 97-98% range. It will also convert a charging armadillo to red mist and flying chunks.

RN 510 grains, paper patched 20:1 alloy, 1800 fps at the muzzle, recovered from a soft damp sand berm at about 120 yds.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/MuffinPP4570_zps1cb2960a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/MuffinPP4570_zps1cb2960a.jpg.html)

So no, I can't see my way clear to recommend HP bullets.

[Thumbcocker]

Gould boolit was designed to have a .22 blank put into the nose. Frank Marshall said they were great to watch on an overcast day shooting into a rock face.

[Wolfer]

I must be casting my HPs wrong. I virtually always get full penetration with good but not overly large exit holes. Meat destruction is far less than with full power jacketed loads.

I do use small HPs no more than 1/4" deep and soft alloy, bhn of about 10. I also don't push them above 1800 fps.

Ive had excellent results and I've shot enough critters to have formed my opinion. My mind is made up. There's no need to confuse me with the facts.

[waksupi]

I've used as small as 6.5 Swede on deer, flat meplate. Large hole through lungs. Used the .358 win. with flat meplate. LARGE hole through lungs. I see absolutely no use for a hollow point for big game. Or for personal defense, for that matter, although I am in a largely unpopulated area. If I lived in town I would consider them. Fine for varmints, too.

[dragon813gt]

The allure of hollow points quickly wore off. I still buy MIhec molds w/ all the pins. But I consider this an investment for the future. The plug pins, if the design allows them, are installed in all of my molds. I got tired of the extra care and time it took to cast them. I'm not a high volume shooter but my free time is severely limited anymore. Even w/ a PID and good notes I get a greater number of culls w/ hollow points. Every second counts so the less rejects I cast, the more time I have to do everything else.

I've found no advantage to them. Sure, a penta hollow point looks cool. And if you get the velocity and alloy right the petals peel back perfectly. I will buy jacketed if that's what I want to happen. A solid cast bullet w/ a proper balance of tin/antimony shot at the correct velocity will expand perfectly.

I have a short two week rifle season here in PA. Most the deer I've taken have been w/ a bow. For the thick woods hunting that's prevalent around here a cast hollow point offers no advantages.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I throw my .02 in the mix here. I have no practical experience with shooting big game, and less shooting people but I do understand the subject. (in theory?)

Large caliber boolits poke nice round holes thru a game animal. A 7/16" hole thru an Elk will kill it, or so I've been told. A 5/16" hole maybe not as much.

A .44 Special with a 240gr SWC boolit will shoot clean thru an Elk at 900 fps.(fairly well known fact) Any more simply buries the boolit in the ground on the off side.

But what about if that Elk was standing in your front yard and you didn't want the boolit going all the way thru and ending up in the neighbors car?

An HP would be the obvious choice for that usage.

My point here is that this must be discussed on a case by case basis. IE: what exactly are you trying to accomplish with a given shot?

It is pretty obvious that either projectile will do the job. One pokes a nice round hole just like being driven thru with a piece of steel rod. This is supposed to kill the animal, and most would agree that it generally does. This is usually because it takes out some of the more important machinery on it's way thru. Not as likely with smaller diameter boolits but still possible. Also it only expends enough energy to penetrate the target and everything else is wasted on further travel. It kills by poking a hole which induces bleed out, or if it hits a major bone the shock would be transferred also.

The other enters the meat and expands to a point that penetration ceases, thus transferring all it's energy to the target. It also acts like a set of blender blades slicing everything in it's path as it rotates (remember it is spinning pretty fast when it hits?) so the physical damage to the target is going to be greater. Seeing a commercial for Barnes Bullets shows the rotary slicing effect of these bullets. This would also be sufficient to kill the animal, but this time it is because of the shock transmitted to the animal more than bleed out. Bloodshot Meat is the result which proves the hydraulic shock effect when animals are shot with very high velocity bullets and this can occur even with FMJ style bullets.

But the HP doesn't usually exit, which maybe what you are looking for in this particular instance. A similar instance could be if you are shooting someone in your house. Everyone knows walls aren't going to stop a bullet. But with an HP a man probably will stop it. So he gets the full effect and your neighbors get none.

Plus that,,,, they look really cool!

Randy

[bhn22]

OK, I've never been in this situation myself, but assuming I was, why not use a pure lead bullet at reduced velocities?
Also, good luck with that when shooting a 45-70 or a 358 Winchester loaded with 400gr and 285gr bullets respectively.

Further, if we are talking about hunting, no shot should ever be taken without knowledge of your backstop, HP bullet or otherwise.

What is the advantage? What can a HP do that cannot be done with a soft bullet?

My primary use for cast HPs is to duplicate my favorite 38 Spl "carry" load for practice. I still use factory ammo for actual carry. I developed a load with 358439 Keiths that duplicates the POI of my Winchester 158 gr +P HPs. Since the Winchester load is now over $30.00/box, it's an important savings. Oddly, my POI was different with "solid" bullets. These loads are also a ball on small game, and hapless amphibians. Expansion is really exciting in mud. I seriously enjoy the extra effort and craftsmanship that's required to produce quality HPs, and that's probably the best part of all. I'll probably hunt deer with a 357 revolver this year, and although my LBT LFNs work perfectly, I have a cup point 180 gr mould that needs a real purpose in life.

If you want to have everything make perfect sense, everybody would be using 22 LR for almost everything, and the ammos too hard to find. Exercise your choices before we lose them all to history.

[fredj338]

At over 100 years old, Lyman's 457122, the Gould hollowpoint is the most killingest deer bullet ever, and was proven when there was a lot of experimentation with cast bullets. Pretty hard to overturn 100 years of deer killin'.

This Lyman has a shallower hp. I'm still playing with it, gonna try PC, see if it slows expansion, but I suspect this goes all the way thru any deer, any reasonable AngLe. I may toughen up the alloy a but, 75cal exp would be plenty.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)

[Blammer]

goodsteel, you should never consider using or shooting hollow point bullets. Seems you do fine all by yourself. :)

[Blammer]

if your a fan of nosler partition bullets, then you should be a fan of HP bullets constructed to act like a NP, but WAY cheaper. :)

that's my arguement.

[Blackwater]

GS, I once shot a lot of .357 HP's from Lee's 358-150-HP that ran 142 gr. nominal with lube and ready to shoot. The HP was pretty big and deep, and it killed smaller game like armadillos significantly quicker/deader than the solids, which I also shot a good bit of. Actual performance on small game was significantly improved, but they WOULD mess up a squirrel or rabbit I wanted to eat. That was the downside. I also carried professionally, and just wanted a bullet that would stop inside the average potential adversary. Just worked too much where crowds were common. Gave some to a buddy and he took two deer with them. One with a 4" .35 at about 25 yds. with a neck shot, so the HP didn't factor in there much. The next was a running and wounded deer that he shot at over 200 yds. and he actually hit that one in the neck, too. The deer was headed for a big swamp where he knew it would never be found, so he risked the hail Mary shot, and got lucky. It flipped like a rabbit when hit, and the shot kept it from being wasted to die a cruel death.

That particular bullet in both my .357's at the time was very accurate, too, so that was another factor in my use of it so commonly. No difference on snakes, but on small game, it did really well. Never got to try it on deer with a body shot, though. Always thought it would have done well there. Out of WW's, the nose petals usually broke off like shrapnel. With @ 4% tin added, and some softer lead (can't recall the proportions) it mushroomed very classically, and held together pretty well. That base always penetrated plenty deeply enough, too, so it kind'a acted like a Nosler Partition when cast of WW's, and more classically with the extra tin. Good bullet, but nowadays, I like the faster pace of a solid point. The one exception may be the .45/70 and the Lyman 330 gr. HP mould. Our little southern whitetails respond very well to HP bullets, and where I often hunt, it's a good idea to have them drop right where they stand, so the few HP's needed for that duty really aren't a big deal to cast. And they really do seem to plant them in their tracks better.

[plainsman456]

I do it because i can.
While the 200 grain swc in a 45 colt will kill ,there is something about the splat factor that just makes it worthwhile.

[reloader28]

I always test my boolits and make them do what I want them to do. All my HP so far are made with 50/50/2% and my normal solids are plain WW.
I've used a 1/16" HP 1/8" deep for 30-06 deer hunting just to start the boolit flattening out some at longer range. It worked very good at short range but aint shot farther than 200 yards since.
I put a small cup point on 30-30 loads but have shot nothing with it yet or even tested this one.
For varmints hunting I use 223 with a 1/1/6" 1/4" deep HP and 243 is 3/8" deep with straight COWW. These are explosive and the remainder of the boolit travels VERY little if it exits at all.

I figure if a self defense boolit is caught in the third to fourth milk jug, thats pretty good in my book and what I work to. Maybe thats not a good test, but its what I use.

I did try a 100gr pure lead Ranch Dog boolit from my 380's and it was not good. Zero accuracy at 5 yards and zero expansion even with a gas check so I'm sticking with my normal solid WW boolits for the time being until I can work a good HP or cup boolit for this.
The other HP pistol rounds I'm very happy with and am fairly certain there would be no unwanted casualties though i think a cup point may serve me better in hotter 357 and 44 loads.

Thats just my .02 on what we do here.

[MBTcustom]

Here's some of my HP experiments
Neptune's trident:
144743

Here's a nice little HP mold I designed and made:
144744
Notice the XCB style lube groove.
144745
144746
Yep, looks awesome. But didn't penetrate nor hold together like the solid bullet did.
144747
144748

This is more like what I want to see. This solid flat nosed bullet folded over itself so well, it looks like a dirty diaper. LOL!
144749

Digital Dan pretty much hit the nail on the head IMHO. That's sho nuff what I like to see.

[44man]

I feel every caliber and velocity will have a different result no matter what you pick. You should work with your gun, I think it would be a mistake to use a HP in one and automatically do the same with another.
One I would NEVER use a HP with is the .475L.144768 I showed this heart shot before. This boolit is just short of a WFN, COWW, water dropped to 22 BHN. 1350 fps. Fully destructive inside, no meat loss and the boolit is on the moon! 144769
Then this one, shot under the chin, same boolit at 76 yards, took out neck, short ribs and out with no meat loss. Even back straps with no damage. Fully 99% or more of the deer hit with this dropped instantly.
Now the 45-70 BFR at 1630 fps and the same type boolit just made pencil holes with two lost. If I could bring the 45-70 to 1300 or so and still hit anything, I would. I shot a few with 50-50 HP boolits, oven hardened to 20 BHN and deer were bloodshot head to butt with an entire shoulder gone.
Take a good look at results before you think you need a HP.
The hardest job I have ever had is to keep accuracy and make every caliber work proper on deer. I have most but one exact and none use a HP. When I see deer hit the ground, belly up without being blown to mist, you will have a hard time telling me to use 16 to 1 or a HP. Cast is NOT easy to reach perfection.
Seen deer here hit with 7mm and 300 mags with holes so big you can stick your head in, still make a mile. ME and energy dump is still a myth. Nothing to do with what your boolit does.

[bearcove]

If you want the truth, This cast bullet fad is nonsense. Just but some modern premium jacketed bullets, they work very well.

Spend the time you waste casting out doing something outdoors.

[cainttype]

If you want the truth, This cast bullet fad is nonsense. Just but some modern premium jacketed bullets, they work very well.

Spend the time you waste casting out doing something outdoors.

I cast outdoors... Dang it! I knew I was doing something wrong. :)

[bearcove]

That's whats so nice about this place. I learn something everyday:bigsmyl2:

[white eagle]

I never thought casting hp's was difficult
I use them because if the boolit is going to travel through my target(whitetail deer mostly)
I like to have a larger wound channel internally instead of a 30,35 cal hole through and through
my boolit will enter and exit on most broadside chest hits and I like to get the most out of the boolit
making it work,so to speak..
If you are talking just plain ol' penetration for the sake of penetration then yes a non hp
cast would be the ticket

[scattershot]

As a follow on to,this thread, does anyone know of a commercial source for SOFT cast boolits? I'm familiar with the Remington 250 grainers for .45 Colt, and have some, but looking for others. Seems most of the commercial casters are in a competition for the hardest boolits they can cast.

[Gunslinger1911]

I pretty much exclusively cast all my boolits for my and my kids shooting. From paper through anything that will move/blow up
I like the moulds offered on this site.
For me, the moulds decided on seem to be on the heavy side for my use.
Hence, HP.
Oh yea, and they look kwel.

[44man]

I never thought casting hp's was difficult
I use them because if the boolit is going to travel through my target(whitetail deer mostly)
I like to have a larger wound channel internally instead of a 30,35 cal hole through and through
my boolit will enter and exit on most broadside chest hits and I like to get the most out of the boolit
making it work,so to speak..
If you are talking just plain ol' penetration for the sake of penetration then yes a non hp
cast would be the ticket


Yep, don't turn a boolit to a quarter or let it break, get another hole and get the boolit to work inside where needed.
I have called it "boolit work" forever.
There are some calibers that NEED a HP or softer. Application must be determined by the hunter, not from a gun rag.

[Digital Dan]

This cast bullet fad is nonsense.

So is smokeless gunpowder.

[LenH]

I know Bullseye shooters that use the Nosler Custom Compitition 185 gr JHP in slow Fire and a Zero 185 LSWCHP in Timed & Rapid fire. They all tell me that the center of gravity
deal. I've tried both and felt I wasted my money. They really didn't help me with my scores, so off they went on the trading block. It was amazing wht I got for 4K Zero's, but it was a fair trade an
I got 6.5k Valiant 160 gr. LSWC, which is what I wanted anyway. I guess it all comes down to what you are confident in shooting.
I got a mold from NOE the 454424 255 gr SWC Keith style bullet and yes it is hollow point, I guess I use it because I can and they look `KEWL'.

[williamwaco]

One Reason:

1) In any bullet design I have ever tested (pistol bullets only), the hollow point bullets, on average, strike closer to the center of the group than the solids of the same design


Disclosure. That includes cast simi-wadcutters and swaged half and three quarter jackets.

[popper]

IMHO, Paco Kelly's 'accurizer' for 22LR shows the advantage of the HP on 'paper'. Then there was the 'dum-dum' craze in the 50's. Don't have any HP moulds but have loaded plated HP for 40SW cause they were cheap.

[MBTcustom]

I use them because if the boolit is going to travel through my target(whitetail deer mostly)
I like to have a larger wound channel internally instead of a 30,35 cal hole through and through
Let me ask you something: what makes you think that has anything to do with putting a deer down fast?
If we were talking archery, and killing by hemorrhage, I would agree with you. Bullets don't work that way. It's awful tempting to say gaping wound channels, and bullets that look like daisies equate to fast kills, but when you're talking about an animal that can cover 100 yards is mere seconds, you're not looking for it to bleed out.

Bullets kill by shock, and just like boxing, the trick to making it count is to strike deep. I really don't think the size of the hole makes a difference, but the shockwave that went before, during and after that hole was made is the part that really equates to a "bang-flop".
I once shot a deer with a 300WM from 30 yards away. Turned him into a purple milkshake on the hoof. He ran 60 yards and was only stopped because he slammed headfirst into a tree, breaking off both horns (I found them laying 15 feet on either side of him.)
In contrast, I shot a deer with a soft Lee 230gr TL 45 pistol bullet in a 50 cal TC sabot with my muzzle loader. That deer just crumpled in her tracks. Didn't move an inch.
The first deer I ever took a shot at was 125 yards away, and had no cover. I put 4 SGK bullets into her with a 30-06 before she was out of sight, (granted all four were in the back of the lungs, or in the bread basket, but I was shooting a wonderful group into the middle of this deer). I never recovered that one because she ran 300 yards and died next to the road where a helpful hunter recovered her and kept the deer as payment for his trouble.
Skip forward to three years ago. 358318 in a 358Winchester. Shot the deer at 75 yards and saw a flash if daylight through the lung area of the buck and a pink hairy mist out other side. That deer could barely walk after being hit. He stumbled straight toward me, and died 15 yard in front of the muzzle of my rifle. Granted, the 358318 is a RN bullet but in that rifle it tumbles on demand after impact and definitely thumps the deer the right way.

All I'm saying is that sometimes what you cannot see is much more important than what you can see, and the shockwave a soft WFN bullet sets up in the body of the deer (or perpetrator) is more devastating than the size of the hole that is left, and if I can get the shockwave without all the meat damage, I would much rather do that.

[white eagle]

I do not believe I said anything about killing fast
everyone has their own ideas on what they want their boolit to do

[DR Owl Creek]

Most of my handgun moulds are hollow point designs. With the NOE moulds, they usually come with hollow point, cup point, and flat point pins. The MP moulds usually come with standard hollow point pins, penta pins, and flat point pins. This gives you a lot of versatility. I'll eventually get around to working up loads with all the different configurations. After that, I'll probably never use the flat points again.

I also have several rifle moulds that are hollow point designs too. The same thing probably apples here too.

In Ohio, as well as a number of more densely populated states, we can't use center-fire rifles with bottle-neck cartridges for deer hunting. This rules out all your 30-30 lever actions too. Areas where we can hunt are often completely surrounded by houses, so extreme penetration is not only undesirable, but dangerous too. I have no need for some bullet design that would be appropriate for bison on the Great Plains, or the "big five" in Africa. Even with a 44 Mag handgun, I can usually get complete penetration on a 150lb whitetail. I'm currently using a Sierra Pro Hunter 300gr JHP 45-70 bullet for my handloads for my Marlin Guide Gun. Having a 300gr HP enables me to get a flatter trajectory, and usually more precise hits at the ranges I normally would shoot. I have bullet moulds for the 45-70 that go up to 500grs. They're just "plinkers" around here.

Dave

[MBTcustom]

On the contrary, I think we all want the same thing from our bullets: effectiveness. We just have different ideas about what makes that happen.
I saw a video on YouTube of a guy shooting a deer with a 50BMG. The deer ran off like it had been shot in the butt with a 22short. Obviously, raw power is not the key to success.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My point here is that this must be discussed on a case by case basis. IE: what exactly are you trying to accomplish with a given shot?

It is pretty obvious that either projectile will do the job. One pokes a nice round hole just like being driven thru with a piece of steel rod. This is supposed to kill the animal, and most would agree that it generally does. This is usually because it takes out some of the more important machinery on it's way thru. Not as likely with smaller diameter boolits but still possible. Also it only expends enough energy to penetrate the target and everything else is wasted on further travel. It kills by poking a hole which induces bleed out, or if it hits a major bone the shock would be transferred also.

The other enters the meat and expands to a point that penetration ceases, thus transferring all it's energy to the target. It also acts like a set of blender blades slicing everything in it's path as it rotates (remember it is spinning pretty fast when it hits?) so the physical damage to the target is going to be greater. Seeing a commercial for Barnes Bullets shows the rotary slicing effect of these bullets. This would also be sufficient to kill the animal, but this time it is because of the shock transmitted to the animal more than bleed out. Bloodshot Meat is the result which proves the hydraulic shock effect when animals are shot with very high velocity bullets and this can occur even with FMJ style bullets.

I have seen Rabbits I shot with HP.22LR's have the Ticks in their ears explode from the Hydraulic Effect. So it happens even on a small scale.

But the HP doesn't usually exit, which maybe what you are looking for in this particular instance. A similar instance could be if you are shooting someone in your house. Everyone knows walls aren't going to stop a bullet. But with an HP a man probably will stop it. So he gets the full effect and your neighbors get none.

Randy

I love quoting myself. After all this discussion I still have to ask.

"What are you trying to accomplish with these boolits? Sometimes one is better than the other, other times the other is better than the one.

For low velocity applications on light targets I think the HP is better. But nobody shoots a Buffalo with an HP.

I am now at .04 cents.

Randy

[NoAngel]

Holes kill stuff. Well placed holes kill stuff faster. BIGGER well placed holes kill stuff fasterer :)

Death occurs from blood loss or shutting down life support, heart, lungs & central nervous system. Energy dump is a goofy lie, probably perpetuated by ammo companies and bullet makers as a marketing strategy. Killing something is no different than shutting down an engine. Turn off the ignition, choke off the intake or run it without oil.

A hollow point makes great sense for some things and not so much for others. Hunting deer in areas where over penetration or tracking is undesirable is a good choice for a well cast HP. Bears? Not so much. A time and place for everything.

[44man]

The most amazing thing i have ever seen is how fast a revolver can put a deer on the ground without a wiggle. I still have a hard time with it because few rifles other then a ML has done it.
Leave the CNS out of it since it is rare.

[NoAngel]

Bullets kill by shock, and just like boxing, the trick to making it count is to strike deep. I really don't think the size of the hole makes a difference, but the shockwave that went before, during and after that hole was made is the part that really equates to a "bang-flop".



On the contrary, I think we all want the same thing from our bullets: effectiveness. We just have different ideas about what makes that happen.
I saw a video on YouTube of a guy shooting a deer with a 50BMG. The deer ran off like it had been shot in the butt with a 22short. Obviously, raw power is not the key to success.








Seems a bit contradictory don't ya think? :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Bigger and more power does not always mean better.

When I first received my JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government I did everything wrong when loading for it to go hunting as that is what the rifle was intended for. Well I cast some Ranch Dog 350 GR RNFP/GC out of pure Lino and water dropped them and found a very accurate load for them of which was around 1900-1950 FPS with H-322. I took it Deer hunting and shot a nice Doe at about 120 yards. The scenario went like this. I fired the Deer jumped straight up into the air as it looked like 5 feet straight up and hit the ground running. And I thought to myself myself there is no way no way in the world I missed but I must have as a Deer could not run after being hit with a cannon lol. Well I walked down there and saw very little blood so again I thought maybe I just grazed her but again I was very puzzled as I also knew that there was no way I would have made that bad of a shot lol. So I got a friend of mine to help me look around in the nice thorny Mesquite trees and cactus and to help look out for those pesky 6 Ft Rattle snakes and about 20 yards away we saw a huge amount of blood where she jumped over some cactus and found her about another 25 yards from there. The bullet went straight through the heart and lungs and excited under the offside shoulder. So when she would jump it would open the wound. The Boolit was so hard it just made a perfect 1/2" hole straight through. This did teach me a great deal about lead. :)

[Blackwater]

You know, GC, you've really given me something to think about. I've never tried shooting soft bullets as fast as you're doing it. Any "secrets" to your success you want to pass on?

[Bullwolf]

I'm going with:

Makes a lighter boolit with the same bearing surface - Save a small amount of alloy?
(not much but some)

Many report Hollow Point design boolits to be more accurate, I haven't managed to prove or disprove this one for myself however.

Could be used to reduce over penetration if you live around lots of people.

The alloys I typically use are hard enough that my HP's don't expand, unless I mix something up custom just for that purpose. I'm a big fan of penetration anyways, along with an exit wound. (two holes)

I tend to shoot my HP's at paper, and sometimes water filled milk jugs for fun. To be fair, I have not put in the work when it comes to matching my alloy and velocity for calibers that I intended to use HP's with for hunting, or to obtain proper expansion, penetration or weight retention.

I prefer to use RF, SWC or some other flat nose design for wounding, and penetration along with a hard alloy for accuracy when looking for terminal performance, so my opinion is somewhat biased on the subject.


- Bullwolf

[GLynn41]

I am sure all this has beeN SAID BUT -- state says to use expanding boolits -- like to experiment-- and they work well on deer- they can be like partitions or the more normal style of expansion-- and they look// koweel

[44man]

I am from Ohio and also hunted MI and PA. I have hundreds and hundreds of deer, at least 230 with bows alone and I used everything legal in each state. I had orchards to hunt with unlimited tags for damage control, also many farms from Cleveland to the river. Extreme crop damage once Ohio brought back the herd.
We could not use revolvers back then and only when I moved to WV could I use them. Since then I have about 174 revolver deer. The learning curve was different and longer.
Even archery I started with the wrong bows and never got penetration so it could take hours and hundreds of yards to find one, plus the drag back. I went to heavy bows and once arrows zipped through, deer went nowhere. I found the same with revolvers and since most hunting was from tree stands, who cared about too much? Maybe I ruined Sushi somewhere!
I have learned a great deal what each revolver and boolit does and how to correct a problem. I just shoot a LOT of deer. My last estimate is about 570 deer. Bow, shotgun, ML's, rifles, pistols and revolvers.
I do not do damage control here but most years I have taken 7 deer, give much away and just keep two. Last season they reduced doe to three a season so I had to stop with two bucks and three doe. Four dropped in their tracks and the last made 20 yards.
Not one single rifle hunter here did that. I still find piles of dead, rotten deer from them. One season I walked a neighbors in the snow and found a dozen dead deer. The mindset from those that use magnums is if a deer does not drop, they missed and they will not go look. Wait for another. Most "HUNTERS" disgust me. Once you pull the trigger, it is the start and if the rest of the day is lost, it is what it is, never, ever give up until hopeless.
You see how I feel with what I read all the time? Some have one or two deer and will spout what you need. Shoot a bottle of water or a sand pile and tell me it is right. I don't like those rose petals or mushrooms. Show the insides of a deer. I could care less about the boolits you show.

[MBTcustom]

I am from Ohio and also hunted MI and PA. I have hundreds and hundreds of deer, at least 230 with bows alone and I used everything legal in each state. I had orchards to hunt with unlimited tags for damage control, also many farms from Cleveland to the river. Extreme crop damage once Ohio brought back the herd.
We could not use revolvers back then and only when I moved to WV could I use them. Since then I have about 174 revolver deer. The learning curve was different and longer.
Even archery I started with the wrong bows and never got penetration so it could take hours and hundreds of yards to find one, plus the drag back. I went to heavy bows and once arrows zipped through, deer went nowhere. I found the same with revolvers and since most hunting was from tree stands, who cared about too much? Maybe I ruined Sushi somewhere!
I have learned a great deal what each revolver and boolit does and how to correct a problem. I just shoot a LOT of deer. My last estimate is about 570 deer. Bow, shotgun, ML's, rifles, pistols and revolvers.
I do not do damage control here but most years I have taken 7 deer, give much away and just keep two. Last season they reduced doe to three a season so I had to stop with two bucks and three doe. Four dropped in their tracks and the last made 20 yards.
Not one single rifle hunter here did that. I still find piles of dead, rotten deer from them. One season I walked a neighbors in the snow and found a dozen dead deer. The mindset from those that use magnums is if a deer does not drop, they missed and they will not go look. Wait for another. Most "HUNTERS" disgust me. Once you pull the trigger, it is the start and if the rest of the day is lost, it is what it is, never, ever give up until hopeless.
You see how I feel with what I read all the time? Some have one or two deer and will spout what you need. Shoot a bottle of water or a sand pile and tell me it is right. I don't like those rose petals or mushrooms. Show the insides of a deer. I could care less about the boolits you show.

See, that is exactly my point of view, but I worry that it may be to narrow to encompass every situation.
I had heard that if I shoot my deer with a magnum rifle, everything I shoot at will be a bang-flop. I learned that was not the case, and in fact, my 30-30 has a much better chance of putting a deer down in it's tracks at 200 yards and closer. 45 caliber at 1200FPS was the most sudden stop I've ever seen other than the time I shot the deer in the nostril (She was looking at me. I don't like it when they look at me. LOL!)
OK, the point is, the more deer I shoot, the softer and softer, and slower and slower, and bigger and bigger I go. That's where I'm drifting anyway.
This year, I'll be shooting a 44Magnum with the Lee 310 gr bullets going 950ishFPS (still have to crony that load). I'm also using a Browning 1886 45-70 with the RD350 cast of air cooled House alloy (14BHN). Of course, I'll have the M1A just because its my "never leave home without it/SHTF and what's your point?" gun.

So here I am lobbing ingots at venison, and then we get to the XCB project, and everything I have been doing to slap deer in the freezer gets turned upside down.
The 30 XCB is a small, hard bullet, blistering along at 2700-3100FPS. I've already got some VonGruff style bi-metal bullets cast, and I believe they are going to do the trick, but they are an even bigger PITA to make. I found myself wondering if the HP bullet is not a real consideration for this specific situation, because I do not get to use all the normal crutches I so dearly love to hang on with all the rifles I normally use to lay 'em in the shade.
So I thought I would ask the eggspurts here. It's a hard question to ask, because every answer has to be balanced against the fact that almost no one in history has actually shot a deer with cast bullets going faster than 2700-3100FPS, and I really don't know what to expect.
I know the only way to know for sure is to try it, but I didn't think there was any harm in asking the question as long as I'm circling the wagons in my mind.

[TXGunNut]

As you probably know I'm firmly in the big meplat camp as a result of my hunting success with RD boolits in my 45-70 and 35 Remington. Awhile back I acquired a sweet 300 Savage and soon after Ranch Dog designed a boolit especially for the 300 Savage. When it came time to place my order I was quite curious about this newfangled HP thing so I went with the RG option. ;-)
I figure the little 30 cal boolit needs all the help it can get with the hogs I enjoy shooting so much and the HP or cup point may just be helpful in that regard. I doubt it will make much difference on deer but it may, less opportunity for an energy dump on our little S TX white tail deer. My goal is to bump frontal area of the 30 cal boolit up to at least 35 cal on impact but quite honestly I don't know if it will be necessary. I'm quite good at tracking, even in thick brush, but I vastly prefer a DRT on edible critters.
Bottom line, I just wanted to see what all the fuss is about and I've been studying Larry Gibson's excellent posts on the subject for the last few years so I think it's time to see for myself.
I think the point about the HP shifting the balance of the boolit rearwards is sometimes valid as well but only for certain designs and applications, probably not a consideration for my hunting uses.
The accuracy argument is intriguing, probably tied to the balance argument but I truly don't know. That's why I like NOE's RG option, it will let me explore the possibilities and decide what works in my rifle. Already too hot around here for any serious accuracy testing in a sporting rifle so will have to wait a few months to get past the theoretical and casting stage for my HP project.

[Larry Gibson]

Okay, you want a picture of the inside of a deer; here's the inside of a deer shot with a 35-200-FN cast of COWWs +2% tin and then mixed 50/50 with lead. The bullets were AC'd and soft. After loading over 37 gr 4895 in Rem cases with a WLR primer they were HP'd to 6/16" deep with the Forster HP tool. The velocity runs 2150 fps out of the Shilen barreled M91 Mauser. The buck was shot at a couple paces over 90 and at the shot he staggered and stumbled about 15 - 20 yards to the side and went down. He was dead within seconds. The bullet was still pushing 1800+ fps on impact. As you can see the bullet obviously mushroomed nicely, went through and through and killed very nicely. A good expanding 35 caliber cast HP of the right alloy killed the deer very quickly w/o any of the horrendous meat damage, lack of penetration or other such myths associated with proper cast and HP'd bullets. Also proper bullet placement helped. I have shot a lot of deer with cast bullets and jacketed bullets of all sorts. I almost always try to put the bullet through the heart area. I've seen as much meat damage with rifles having 1500 - 2100 fps impact velocity from solid RN and FN cast bullets of larger calibers (.35, .375 and .45) than when properly cast and HP'd bullets of lessor calibers are used at the same velocity.

Photo's show entrance and exit wounds inside and out, the 35-200-FN HP'd in 35 Rem and a 314299 HP'd in a 7.62x54R.

144827144828144829144830144831144832

The question of this thread is "why you use" not "which is better". I have answered why I use properly cast HP'd cast bullets for hunting deer with rifles or handguns. I simply give my preference and state the reasons why. I do not denigrate one to enhance my choice. I have continually stated I'll use one, and I have used them all, if the other is not available. I also understand the difference between the terminal effect of a 30 caliber cast bullet that does not expand to the terminal effect of that same 30 caliber bullet HP'd so it will properly expand. I also understand, because I have used them, the effectiveness of non expanding 375 - 45 or larger caliber cast bullets. I choose to most often hunt deer with 30, 8mm or 35 caliber rifles so I properly cast and HP the bullets to increase the terminal effectiveness (in my own estimation based on my own killing criteria). If hunting with deer or pigs with handguns I use a .41 or 44 magnum revolver. I also use properly cast HP'd bullets in those because at 1350 - 1450 fps they are also more effective. The question was asked "why I use" I have answered the question; I use both but prefer one over the other in smaller caliber rifle cartridges and in the 41 and 44 Magnum in revolvers (I don't own nor use any of the larger handgun Magnum cartridges simply because if the .41 or .44 isn't enough I use a rifle that is, just my choice is all).

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

BTW; most all pictures of bullet holes look far worse than they are. If you kill something with a bullet something will be damaged; that's how it kills. There was no meat wasted on that deer. As Elmer said; you could eat right up to the hole.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

BTW; most all pictures of bullet holes look far worse than they are. If you kill something with a bullet something will be damaged; that's how it kills. There was no meat wasted on that deer. As Elmer said; you could eat right up to the hole.

Larry Gibson

I believe you Larry, and I apologize for not being clearer in the wording of the thread title. Like I said, I wanted everyone's opinions, and I gave mine, but I'm not saying it is right, nor the last word, it's just a my current point of view.
Lots to think about here. I may have to give HP a try.

[44man]

It always comes to what works no matter. The time to worry and rethink is with a failure. I don't think anything is worse then a loss. With cast you can correct it and they darn sure work.
Like I said, some NEED a HP but also some do NOT.

[Blackwater]

You know, this may well be the best and most effective discussion of what makes for REAL "killing power" than all the ones I've ever read in the glossy mags put together. As to the big magnums and their lack of real performance in the field, my experience as an observer (never used one myself, but my son and many others I've hunted with have used them, and I've skinned out and dressed a good many deer, a bare min. of 300+), is that they DO appear to perform worse than more common and typical calibers. Part of the reason I've come to attribute this to is the simple fact that the average owner of a magnum is actually afraid of his rifle, flinches, or just jerks the trigger to "get it over with," and frequently at least, bullet placement is off. Placement will ALWAYS be the key to killing game, period. All other factors are secondary. As proof of this, I'd point to the old early African hunters who often used FMJ bullets in the 6.5's and .303's because that's all they could GET at various times. They simply had no choice, really. And these guys, being almost wholly good shots, took a lot of game with these FMJ's, counter to modern claims of how ineffective they are. They have also killed millions of good and not-so-good men in our wars as well, many very quickly when placed right. So placement is always first in line in the effort to kill deer or whatever cleanly. One other thing about the magnums is that they typically "overdrive" the lighter bullets. In .308 size for instance, most 150 grainers are designed for the .308 Win. level velocities, or maybe the '06. Put them in a magnum and drive them at 300-500 fps. faster than their design parameters, and they become "varmint" bullets, and don't penetrate well. Then we go to the heavier bullets, like the 180's in .308", and those don't expand quite as rapidly, and go through the deer while expansion is delayed, and lots and lots of that "extra" energy gets "dumped" on the air and forest beyond our quarry, rather than where it will do the most good, which is inside the deer. Essentially, they're using elk, bear and moose loads on thin-skinned and lightly boned (comparatively, at least) whitetails, and those stouter bullets waste an awful lot of their energy on the far side of the deer in the scenery than within the deer itself. I've found that 150 gr. bullets in a .308 or '06 kill whitetails VERY cleanly, and DRT IF and only IF they're placed well, which is about 1/3 or so of the way up from the bottom of the chest and close behind the shoulder - VERY close. The 130 gr. .270 also works well, and it's hard to get a bullet for the .270 that's NOT designed specifically to perform well at .270 Win. velocities. Bullet construction really DOES matter, as well as placement, and it has to be designed to work well at the impact velocities AT RANGES WHERE THE ANIMAL IS HIT. Most, if not all, of the energy needs to be expended inside the game, whatever type bullet is used and at whatever speed it is driven, to do the DAMAGE that kills.

Now here is where we get into an often debated question that may never be settled, but some, myself included, claim that ON WHITETAIL DEER OR OTHER THIN SKINNED GAME, "hydrostatic shock" CAN at least sometimes be a factor in killing. This is shown, I think, by all the bloodshot meat and the liquified organs that we observe when cleaning a deer shot with calibers and bullets that expand properly, and are doing about mach 2.5 or so at impact. Blood vessels are collapsed and practically liquified, and the contents of the entrails are so thoroughly mixed, that it looks like they've been put in a blender and liquified. This is all the evidence I need to see, along with all the bang-flops I've made with them, to conclude that it DOES in fact exist, at least on whitetails, and that is IS an effective part of the killing equation. The meat damage, if bullet selection is proper, is minimal, consisting of just small parts of the ribs, which aren't generally eaten anyway, and a sometimes significantly larger exit wound on the other side. No real problem, as is the entrails that are so thoroughly stirred up. Those who hunt bigger stuff need not rely on it, necessarily, though calibers like the .300 Wby DO tend to point to the possibility at least, that they too CAN be subject to it, though maybe not to the level that a smaller whitetail is. The big stuff has bigger muscles, bigger and heavier bones, and are just bigger PERIOD, so I have no quarrel with those who've found little to no evidence of it in the bigger stuff, but that again, doesn't mean it's not a real factor in whitetails.

As to the lead bullets, I've long noted the additional effectiveness of a flat point on anything, to the point that the matter seems nearly inarguable, really. My experience with HP's has shown that they clearly DO kill quicker/better than solids ON SMALLER GAME. I haven't really used them on our smallish southern whitetails, so can't give any testimonials, but if one uses the close up behind the shoulder shot, I can't see how a .357 or larger HP cast and driven so it penetrates, opens up and stays together wouldn't do the job very well. And here lies the problem: Was it placement or bullet type that mattered most? And if placement is good, that's really a hard question to answer, and maybe in fact impossible. All those Afrikanners who used FMJ's are kinda' like the fly in the ointment, and I have no quarrel finding ANY bullet that expands, dumps most of its energy inside the game, does a lot of real physical damage, and exits barely able to get through the offside, WILL, and very reliably so, kill deer quite effectively. If it's a HP or a soft solid, really doesn't matter nearly as much as we might think, or want to think, IMO. That the soft solids are easier and faster to cast DOES, though, and that's why I'm intrigues by GS's post. I'moan give 'em a try. I like the idea, despite the fact that I have several HP moulds. HP's will, I think, always have their place, such as the 142 gr. Lee SWCHP for .357" has when cast soft and driven at .38 Spec. levels, particularly at non-+P velocities. Where a soft bullet doesn't open up at the lower velocities, and you want expansion and lack of "over penetration," they may help. Otherwise, I plan to give GS's proposals a try. I think he may be onto something here.

[Larry Gibson]

My apology for apparently not getting my point across. I agree with Blackwater, 44man and everyone else that a solid hard cast bullet of any caliber will kill quite effectively when put in the right place. I have used such myself, as mentioned, and have no qualms with their use. My point is that in many instances they, like all bullets, can not be placed exactly where we would like them to go. There is a big difference in jump shooting white or black tail deer in the thickets or mulies in pole patches and shooting a nice calm deer standing broadside with his nose up a does a** as was with the buck I pictured above. In the instances I am referring it is not "killing power" that is paramount as it really doesn't take much to kill a deer. The question is how fast the deer is killed. Yes many are DRT but then again, many aren't. I am very good at tracking but in many places, particularly when it is raining, and the ground is covered with soft foliage that doesn't leave tracks it is difficult to almost impossible to find a deer that has traveled any distance. I might add that it is illegal to hunt with dogs where I've hunted and even using them to track a wounded deer will get you ticketed or arrested and your rifle and vehicle confiscated. What I want is all the effectiveness to put the deer down as quick as possible that the bullet can give. An expanding bullet does open up and increase the frontal area of the bullet. If the 30 caliber bullet quickly opens up to 35 - 40+ caliber and holds that larger frontal area as it passes through the deer is it not then as effective as a 35 - 40+ caliber bullet that does not expand? I thinks so and the results of many dead deer that dies very quickly answer the question.

No a HP'd cast bullet is not always needed for every application of deer hunting. But where and how I hunt they have proven to be more effective at putting the shot deer down quicker over all. That's my point. So again, my apologies as I'm not advocating the use of HP'd cast bullets for everything. Actually I shoot far more solid cast bullets which cast a lot easier , particularly in multi-cavity moulds, than HP'd cast bullets. I've found the solid ones do indeed kill rocks, dirt clods, termite mounds and cow pies every bit as well as the HP'd ones.

:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[white eagle]

I like most of you have been hunting deer and big game for a long time
I shot truck loads of whitetail and have always been interested in bullet performance
used cals between 22-54 magnums and standard rounds and from what I have been able to
surmise is slower and bigger seems to work better.One time I tested two relatively fast cartridges a 220 swift and a 280 ackley.I shot one deer with both rounds and the results were very similar,I had a solid hit and had to track them 50 or so yards.Later had opportunity to use a conical in a 54 muzzleloader and that deer was a drt.
same results with a 45-70,both large boolits going relatively slow.
My main reason for using cast hp's is to get a larger boolit out of the cal I am shooting.

[MBTcustom]

First, I don't think you have to rupture blood vessels and tear meat in order to kill something. I think much lower frequency shockwave does the job nicely which is why we can get better killing power from a bullet that punches a seemingly small, neat hole. When you shoot a deer with a bullet, you hear a very distinct "pop" that is often as loud as the report of the rifle itself. When I am hunting and I hear other hunters shooting, I listen for this pop, and I can tell whether the hunter hit the deer at all, and how hard he hit that deer, an how far the deer was from the hunter when he shot it based on how close the two sounds are together, and how loud the second is. This sound is very apparent during muzzle loading season and has often wrongly been attributed to the sound of the primer going off followed closely by the throatier sound of the rifle, when in fact, its the rifle that makes the higher pitched sound and the ball hitting the deer that makes the lower pitched sound. I have found that whoever shoots a deer and gets a bigger "pop" has less far to track.

Last year, I had the unique opportunity to see a friend of mine make a 150 yard shot on a deer. He was using a 338WinMag with Nosler bullets........for Arkansas deer.......:shock:
Anyway, I saw my friend take a bead from about 150 yards away. I could see him clearly through my binoculars from my stand, but not the deer. He shot, and although I expected to hear a "pop" of epic proportions, it just wasn't all that loud at all. I saw the deer come barreling out of the woods and watched it run 100 yards in mere seconds where I watched it fall over and expire after thrashing around a bit. I figured he must have gut shot it, but that was not the case. he had shot the deer in the chest. The bullet entered about 2" to the right of center (from the deer's perspective), and exited the left rear rump. He shot the deer through and through turning everything from the wind pipe to the tail pipe into a frothy purple slurry. Heart, lungs, liver, gut, kidneys, all damaged beyond recognition. How in the heck does that happen?!?!?!

Well, I have a theory about that. My theory is that the deep "pop" I hear is the right kind of energy being deposited into the critter, and it has nothing to do with how much sustained damage is done to the deer. I believe that the trick to really shutting things down is to hit the deer in such a way that this "gentler" wave of energy shocks more of the nervous system and literally turns out the lights. I think that when the bullet is not able to expand just enough, or if it expands too harshly/quickly, things do not work as well.
I think the bullet being too hard just zips through and doesn't set up this shockwave that gets large amounts of the tissue moving along with it.
Kind of like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfnt8Sdj7cs
However you do it, this is what you are after. I just think a cast bullet does it at lower velocity and a soft LFN does it even better:
Look at :18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4LxFPLMeaY

[OnHoPr]

IMHO it has a lot to do with the idiosyncrasies of the hunter and the terrain in which the hunter is hunting. This is in respects to deer hunting as GoodSteel tried to contain the subject matter to. First of all, I think speed has to do with the quicker killing of deer, something that cast lack. I have an opposing theory having to do with Hydrostatic Shock especially when the shots are double lungers. ?????? How do you get hydrostatic shock in a pneumatic system? If you step on the brakes with air in the line you don’t push anything but air until you compress it enough to put pressure on the brake fluid. Same thing happens with the lungs in a deer. If you shoot a deer in the lungs with a slower bullet when you dress the deer you will see basically intact pink lungs deflated with a hole in them or tore up somewhat. If you shoot the lungs with a fast bullet when you dress it you will just see just globules of a bloody soupy slur. Though, I am still amazed with the good ole PRB, just don't make sense on how fast a killer this projectile is.

Terrain and where the deer are along with pressure dictate my idiosyncrasies here in MI on public land. This means deer could be at 50 yds or 250 yds from me at the shot. Whether at 50 or 250 in a thick river bottom or in a clear cut respectively hard tracking or private property line can be only 50 yds away from the initial hit. Now I have never shot a deer with a large metplat so to speak unless a 44 240 gr Speer Gold Dot is considered one. The reason for this is they have very low BC's which take the 250 yd shot more difficult especially in wind with the point blank range statistics. Though again, I do have a couple of containers of Lee 44 310's and SW 500 440's WW and water quenched for a specific sit in thick stuff with the 25 yd to 75 yd shooting scenario if the need arose. So, with that in mind a boolit of decent mediocre BC of about .325 pushing about 2200 fps sighted in a couple of inches high or so @ 100 yds can have a point blank range of about 250 yds. Now there are two types of deer body densities, the green ribs and lungs of a 1 1/2 year old doe or 4 pt and the stout muscle and bone of a 5 1/2 year old corn fed buck that's pushing better that 200 lbs dressed. Deer do not always give that perfect magazine broadside shot and lots of times they are not standing still, so moving raking shots are called for in some cases. So, I think the 1 1/2 year old 4 pt standing still at 250 yds broadside requires a little more help expanding hitting the green rib lung area in contrast the 200 lb + lb 5 year old buck on a fast trot 75 yds away from you on a raking shot needs deep penetration. The higher BC boolit with good SD will give you length to work with making a decent boolit to accommodate both boolit characteristics. The .30 cal boolit might be lacking weight even though it is easier to gain BC with it to be optimal for the task of both characteristics requirements pondering upon. The .44 cal boolit and larger is difficult to acquire BC with to shoot well at 250 yds with trajectory and wind drift along with point blank range. The .35 cal to .40 cal boolits seem to fit the opinionated characteristics of the hunting scenarios. With a AC hollow point less than 15 BHN of good weight or a tough BruceB type of soft point, (maybe even HPed), seems to fit the requirements. Dang, a 35 Whelen sounds pretty good with about .325 BC or above and just under 300 gr @ about 2200 or a touch higher fps. This content was pertaining to a rifle scenario.

To the pistola scenario the deer body masses along with shot angles are the same, but range is different. BC still comes into play a bit on some shots if you are attempting 150 yd shots, but anything under or close to the 100 yd mark the boolit design is less demanding so, why not the big metplat for that extra smack. The boolit could be somewhat soft, but tough at those velocities. It still needs to accomplish the raking shot on the BIG buck at 75 yds with deep penetration without splatting like a 9 BHN 200 gr hollow point out of a 44 special @ 1000 fps. It could possibly need a little help on the 75 yard broadside standing shot not even hitting a rib for the double lunger on the 1 1/2 year old doe.

I shot a doe a few years ago @ about 200 yds with the TC 209 x 50 with a 240 gr Gold Dot. The speed of the boolit at impact was about the same as a 44 mag at 50 yds. That deer bucked her hind legs and took off running just like the other deer in the group. I watched her run darn near across 40 acres on over the rise in the field. Did I miss? Well I packed up my gear and went towards her. The boolit was right in the corner of the V of the shoulder. Now, if that was in a cedar swamp, river bottom tag alders, or jackpine thickets with blueberry bushes up to your knees I would of spent a couple of hours tracking that night and most likely the net day to find her for a almost 300 or 400 yd 15 second run, especially with no snow.

The possibility of something like a Lee 44 310 HPed with a semi soft but tough alloy or about 60 or 75 gr of BruceB soft point (maybe HPed) with water quenched bands and below would still give a good splat on impact with the 1 1/2 year olds ribs, but still give deep penetration on the raking shot with the BIG buck. The boolit scenarios would be similar to the Nosler Partition. They might be PITA to make, but how many deer do you shoot a year.

[cainttype]

OK... I'll play "Devil's advocate"
First off, why do we use an HP that can't be counted on to exit for any purpose? It's easy enough to get expansion and penetration if needed.

In a defensive roll, a reliable penetrating HP projectile has a better chance of disrupting the CNS (spine) with a center hit simply because of diameter (better chance of disrupting arteries, too). Lightweight zippers often fail to have the penetration capabilities to benefit from center-mass CNS strikes, altogether.

Hunting... A projectile that exhibits "perfect" performance (whatever your definition happens to be on the intended target) at 20 ft from your deerstand is unlikely to perform similary at 200 yds, especially at the velocities most people associate with cast lead... Nosler Partitions were the jacketed version of attempting to answer that question.

Not being a fan of deep HPs for most things, I have to admit to being fond of the cup-nose versions available today (NOE does lots of them) of classic RNs. I think that if ranges are extended, especially with calibers considered medium or small, the cup-nose and shallow HPs could prove to be a real advantage on some of the heavy-for-caliber casts so many people prefer.

That being said, I could be perfectly content with a good alloy, a good FN, and a good comprehension of my own limitations with them.

That was posted in reply to GS's original post, where his question was when could a HP "ever" be a better choice than a solid.
Although this thread's original intent might have been in regard to hunting (and has generally gone in that direction), it wasn't presented that way at the start.
No biggie, but justification for both self-defense and hunting references.

[MBTcustom]

This thread was started to talk about HP bullets period. Hunting, SD, doesn't matter. Most people do what they do and they do not know why, nor have they thought about it, and when they do think about it, they base their "why" on bad science, art, magic, what everybody else is doing, or what a certain guru they respect did once.
I want to know "Why you shoot HP bullets" if indeed you do know why you do that. What have you personally witnessed that drove the nails in the coffin for you?
I really don't care what your experiences are regarding. You did a side by side test of water balloons and pine knots with WFN and HP? Post 'er on up here!

[kenyerian]

This has been a great discussion that I have enjoyed very much. Every situation has different pro's and con's. Varmint hunting for example. If you are saving pelts than a solid will minimize damage. If you just want to control the population Hollow points might be more appropriate. I used to do some Hog Hunting with a 308 and when the nosler partition bullet became available it quickly became a favorite. I bought one of the First TC Hawkins on the market in 45 caliber back in 70 or 71 and it shot round balls very well. I dropped many in their tracks with a head, spine shot. If I shot them in the heart/lungs there was always some tracking involved. I still have the 45 but I've been using a Knight 50 cal with hollow points with sabots. Seem to be more effective for Heart/lung shots. I have also used a 270 and have tried many different bullets with it. I am working with a new mold from Noe so I will see how that goes. For years my favorite deer medicine was a 44 rem mag. using semi wadcutters . I 've moved on to the Lee 310. I'm on the list for the 432-275 FN HP Group buy that NOE has going on right now I also bought a MILHEC 434-640 that drops a 271 solid and a 249 HP that I haven.t tried yet. Looks like it is going to be a fun fall.

[44man]

Too many good points have been made.
Since I changed to nothing but revolvers distance has been reduced and my longest shots will top at about 100-120 yards as long as I can hold still. Placement is soooo important.
I see a need for a heavy HP at around 100 because deer hit that far get reduced energy and will go farther, seen most with the .44. I don't use smaller. It would be the closer shots up to 50 that I don't want rapid expansion so to design a boolit for both cases is way more difficult.
How cast does what it does is still baffling. The first deer I shot with the JRH and a full hard boolit was shot in the front at 30 yards because I made her come to me out of the thick and I shot when she was clear. The huge 440 gr WFN did almost nothing to the lungs and did not begin to work until the liver and from there until exit I had that pile of muck. She went straight up and came down full on her belly, feet never touched. Since I softened some of the nose even double lung hits behind the shoulder will drop them. It acts different then the .475 with a 420 gr hard cast. It took a while for me to make them act the same. The huge .50 was just going through too fast. There was no "dwell time." I learned that just a big flat nose was not enough. I was not putting energy to work. I got to call it boolit work and energy placed. NOT "dump."
Seen deer shot with the .223 where the bullet only made 6" into the chest and deer hit with the wrong bullet from a .220 Swift that took a foot of hide off and never made it into the boiler room.
I have to look at a fast, light HP from a revolver the same. The 240 XTP needs used from a special.
The Gold Dot held up better. The 300 XTP would be a good choice.
I think a large meplat shot wrong can create a pressure wave from the nose to move tissue out of the way and there is not enough energy to disrupt it.
I have no idea what 2000 + fps would do, I have nothing that fast.
In the velocity range where the FN fails, you need some expansion. Work with your caliber and when you go to another, things can turn around.

[kenyerian]

As far as what I've personally witnessed Hundreds of dead groundhogs have convinced me that hollow points work best for ground hog hunting. On the other hand I like solids for squirrel hunting because I don't like to waste any meat. I am still working on deer hunting. Guess it depends on which weapon I am using.

[44man]

Guess it depends on which weapon I am using.
Exactly.
I do not like a .357 for deer because it is harder to get right. A friend used one and lost many deer because he just bought bullets or factory loads. He could not take the recoil of a .44. He had one of the most accurate SRH's I ever shot but it scared him.
Buck fever is another thing. One friend and everyone here has heard of Dave. I put up a cardboard deer and from the stand with his SRH he will put every shot in the bull. But he will miss a real deer by 10 to 20', you read it right!
I only seen him kill one deer with his 270, small one gut shot. He is still so proud of that, that I hear about it all the time. Then he took out a knife that looked like he cut RR rails with.

[Petrol & Powder]

I see HP's as a means to increase the effectiveness of the projectile however, penetration is key. The projectile must reach deep enough into the target to be able to damage something important. If the bullet fails to penetrate deep enough, all of the expansion in the world will fail to correct that deficiency.

Soft lead bullets with flat noses will often expand even without a hollow point but even if they fail to expand, they will generally retain enough weigh to penetrate better than a expanding bullet that may shed fragments, lose mass and energy while failing to penetrate deep enough. While it is true that a projectile that exits the animal didn't "dump" all of its available energy into the animal, that remaining energy likely has little more to offer in terms of effectiveness.
There are three criteria that must be met in order for the projectile to be effective:
1. The projectile must be properly placed on the target (shot placement)
2. The projectile must possess enough energy to penetrate deep enough to damage something that will incapacitate the animal
3. the bullet must actually damage something that will incapacitate the animal.

In a perfect world the projectile would be properly placed, expand completely without losing mass, utilize that large frontal area to damage lots of vital anatomy and exit with almost no energy left and fall to the ground inches from the exit wound.
Obliviously we cannot engineer a projectile that will do that every time on every different animal from every conceivable range and target profile. So we attempt to make the best compromise possible. While attempting to stack the terminal ballistics odds in our favor it is far better to err on the side of too much penetration as opposed to too little penetration. Given good shot placement and enough energy to reach something vital, expansion just becomes the icing on the cake.

Compared to rifles, handguns suck when it comes to terminal ballistics. It is in the realm of the self defense handgun that we are always trying to squeeze that last little bit of performance out of our projectiles. In common handgun projectiles we start off with comparatively little energy (as opposed to long guns) and targets that are trying to harm us (the bad guy shoots back). So when designing handgun projectiles for self defense we try to do everything possible to get good penetration and the largest frontal area with controlled expansion.
Handguns used for self defense present us with the most challenging set of criteria.

[MBTcustom]

Too many good points have been made.
Since I changed to nothing but revolvers distance has been reduced and my longest shots will top at about 100-120 yards as long as I can hold still. Placement is soooo important.
I see a need for a heavy HP at around 100 because deer hit that far get reduced energy and will go farther, seen most with the .44. I don't use smaller. It would be the closer shots up to 50 that I don't want rapid expansion so to design a boolit for both cases is way more difficult.
How cast does what it does is still baffling. The first deer I shot with the JRH and a full hard boolit was shot in the front at 30 yards because I made her come to me out of the thick and I shot when she was clear. The huge 440 gr WFN did almost nothing to the lungs and did not begin to work until the liver and from there until exit I had that pile of muck. She went straight up and came down full on her belly, feet never touched. Since I softened some of the nose even double lung hits behind the shoulder will drop them. It acts different then the .475 with a 420 gr hard cast. It took a while for me to make them act the same. The huge .50 was just going through too fast. There was no "dwell time." I learned that just a big flat nose was not enough. I was not putting energy to work. I got to call it boolit work and energy placed. NOT "dump."
Seen deer shot with the .223 where the bullet only made 6" into the chest and deer hit with the wrong bullet from a .220 Swift that took a foot of hide off and never made it into the boiler room.
I have to look at a fast, light HP from a revolver the same. The 240 XTP needs used from a special.
The Gold Dot held up better. The 300 XTP would be a good choice.
I think a large meplat shot wrong can create a pressure wave from the nose to move tissue out of the way and there is not enough energy to disrupt it.
I have no idea what 2000 + fps would do, I have nothing that fast.
In the velocity range where the FN fails, you need some expansion. Work with your caliber and when you go to another, things can turn around.

Great post. Again.
It seems many of your experiences are similar to mine. I once made a shot at 300 yards from the offhand position with a 30-06. Winchester whitebox was the ammo (I bought it to get the brass. It was accurate, so I used it). I tucked the bullet right behind the front shoulder with a double lung hit. The deer ran straight towards me and saw me when she got to 100 yards, turned, and ran to my right directly to a small thicket in the middle of the field (it has a stream in it, and many a deer has been found there). I clearly saw blood running down both front legs.
After taking the shot and being confident it was excellent (other than the fact that I personally watched her run 300 yards) I walked back to the house for a sandwich because it was a fairly cool day, and that deer was as good as in the freezer. I didn't think she would have enough left in her to make it past that thicket.
Well, I had my sandwich and told my buddy what happened, and asked if he would be so kind as to bring his Cherokee Indian trackin self out there and help me get her back. He agreed with a big smile (I swear that fella is half blood hound. He likes tracking more than any other part of the hunt!)
We went back to the thicket and found blood drops all over the place, but no deer! We could track her from the place I shot her, all the way down to where she turned, and all the way to the thicket but then the blood just stopped. I was thinking a pterodactyl had come down and picked her up and flown away!
We started combing the field and we covered every gosh dam inch of about a 300 yard square. Finally, I found a 4" puddle of frothy pink blood (obvious lung shot) where she had laid down all the way back up on the hill she was shot from! this means that she ran 200 yards towards me, 100 yards to my right, bled on the thicket for a while, and then went another 200 yards back to the hill (about 100 yards further than where she was shot).
We proceeded to comb that hill and bust through the briers and thickets, but we never found another spot of blood and I finally announced that I had had enough. It was hopeless.

That's not the end of the story though. About 4 months later, my buddy calls me up and announces that he found my deer! I asked him what gives? He told me that another friend of his who lives all the way on the other side of the hill we were combing had some thing very strange happen about four months ago. He said he was out practicing with his bow in the back yard, when this doe came stumbling along right between him and his target. He said it was obvious that she had been shot and was on her last leg, so he finished her with a field pointed arrow.
I told my buddy that all I wanted to know was where the hell was the bullet hole????? He said the hole was right behind the front shoulder in a picture perfect location, but that it looked like she had been shot with a FMJ. 5/16" hole going in, and going out. The bullet simply did not expand.
What a kick in the shorts!

[MBTcustom]

So here's some Lyman 457483s I cast out of certified pure lead. If I put on a GC, powder coat them, and shoot them through a deer at 1500FPS, how far do you think the deer is going to run? 403 grains of metallic silly putty doing Mach 1.5. Do you suppose it needs a HP? LOL!
144933
Maybe I should HP them just to be on the safe side. LOL!

[44man]

Bang flop for sure. I love pure lead, my revolvers don't!
Long ago I shot a bunch of deer with my Ruger OA with round balls. I swear it kills faster then the .44 mag. Big problem is it is a 20 yard gun. Twist is wrong for velocity and a RB. I don't think I could hit a deer at 50.
I had a Lone Eagle in 7mm 08 for some time and did kill some deer with it. But then I made the perfect shot behind the shoulder. She took off and I found lung tissue hanging from a tree. Very little blood but I was able to track Hundreds of yards until all blood stopped. I was up in cedars and trails were heavy, thousands of prints, 6" deep trails. That is where she went so I had to give up. Time to micro stamp deer hooves!
It is the same all over here, so many trails and tracks, nobody can follow a deer without blood.
So far I have shot 3 deer with 6" of arrow and broad heads healed in the chest cavities. I have a fear of reaching in them now. I have taken many deer with bullets healed against rib cages. First thought is CANCER until you cut and a bullet falls out.
It kind of irks me when anyone says deer are easy to kill.

[Larry Gibson]

Point is not every one chooses to hunt deer with the larger calibers. Take a .30 caliber similar bullet which would be about a 120 +/- gr GC bullet, cast it of pure lead and push it at 1500 fps. Make the same shot on a deer and see how far it can/will run. Hope you got your track shoes on.........:bigsmyl2:

However, take a decent 311041 cast of COWW + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead and HP it with the 1/8" Forster tool 3/16" deep, push it at 2100 fps and make the same shot. Assuming the shot was a heart/lung shot (hope Tim and 44man weren't talking a Texas heart shot:shock:) the deer will be dead with in a couple feet (straight down) or with a few yards (horizontal spectrum). That's the point; with a smaller caliber using a proper bullet, a proper alloy and properly HP'd one doesn't need the larger calibers to get the job done just as effectively.

So some want to shoot deer with big guns and they do it right. Others of us like to shoot deer with smaller calibers and know how to do it right also. Same difference; dead deer.:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[Willis74]

These are some results I got from shooting into multiple layers of conveyer belts spaced apart. All of them are cast. The first is a 44 mag then a 40 then a 38. All were powder coated. 144946

[MBTcustom]

Point is not every one chooses to hunt deer with the larger calibers. Take a .30 caliber similar bullet which would be about a 120 +/- gr GC bullet, cast it of pure lead and push it at 1500 fps. Make the same shot on a deer and see how far it can/will run. Hope you got your track shoes on.........:bigsmyl2:

However, take a decent 311041 cast of COWW + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead and HP it with the 1/8" Forster tool 3/16" deep, push it at 2100 fps and make the same shot. Assuming the shot was a heart/lung shot (hope Tim and 44man weren't talking a Texas heart shot:shock:) the deer will be dead with in a couple feet (straight down) or with a few yards (horizontal spectrum). That's the point; with a smaller caliber using a proper bullet, a proper alloy and properly HP'd one doesn't need the larger calibers to get the job done just as effectively.

So some want to shoot deer with big guns and they do it right. Others of us like to shoot deer with smaller calibers and know how to do it right also. Same difference; dead deer.:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson


LOL! I hear ya Larry. Loud and clear. That's the whole reason I started this thread. Hoping to potentially broaden my horizons.

[TheCelt]

I use cast HP boolits (.22 and .308) for varmints but don't really feel they are any more effective than a boolit with a good meplat.

I started shooting cast 200gr HP boolits in my .45s and LOVE THEM. They are accurate and fun to shoot. I do not use them for anything but target shooting but I believe they'd be good defensive rounds as well.

[44man]

One of my guns would benefit with a cup point. My .45 Colt Vaquero. My heavy boolits at 1160 fps see deer react different, they jump and walk off but do not go far, stop, hang their heads and start to shake their heads. Then they panic and try to run only to crash. I have not had to track any but I see how low energy affects them.
My longest shot was one I jumped. She was facing away and looking back at me about 110 paced yards. I aimed just over her back and took her in the neck for a bang-flop. That does not count to examine what the boolit does. I was trying to avoid the Texas Heart shot.
1100 to 1200 fps has not proven to be bad at all. With my larger bores, I can't shoot that slow with most running 1350 fps so why did the 440 gr act so poor? Must be boolit weight that does not slow with a hit, it just keeps going.
It is all very strange and nothing shows a thing except deer. Just fine tune. Sometimes the change to a boolit is so little you will not imagine that it counts.
It was said a boolit that goes through and falls to the ground is OK and I agree as long as you do not have more mass to get through.

[Blackwater]

This has been a fantastic thread, and my thanks to GS for starting it. With regard to HP's, all I can contribute now is that the old 142 gr. Lee 358-150SWCHP's definitely stopped/killed smaller game quicker than solid SWC's or even most JHP's, even when cast of straight WW's. Apparently, it seemed to begin its expansion more quickly, and therefore got some expansion going BEFORE exiting the small bodies. That enhanced its effect on smaller game. I then inferred that its use for self defense was similarly indicated, since to get the same shot on a deer, we'd have to get directly UNDER them and shoot up into the "forward" part of the chest. The petals would often flake off and become shrapnel, but the base continued deeply and it basically worked very similar to a Nosler Ptn. J-bullet. I used it in 3, 4 and 6" .357's, and with my usual load of 8.0 gr. Unique, it did everything I needed a bullet to do. Never got a chance to try it on deer. Never saw one within the ranges I felt good about shooting at when carrying it, so used my rifle instead. I can be a real coward about stuff like that when a rifle's handy.

So far, the only deer I've shot with a pistol myself, was a smallish buck at @ 65 yds. with a .30 Herret with 125 gr. Nos. BT's. With a heart shot, it jumped 4' straight up, kicked backwards mightily, and ran about 15 yds. angling toward me, where it stopped and looked around. I reloaded my Contender, and shot again, and it ran @ 40 yds. fell, and began thrashing for a few seconds before expiring. When I went to dress it out, I was amazed at the damage done inside, but it STILL managed to run over 50 yds. before folding and expiring. I still don't understand that, as I don't GS's story of that deer he hit with his '06. Apparently, the bullet failed to open. This is pretty rare these days, but it DOES happen occasionally, and on what it depends is a mystery to me still. However, I've noted that with conventional rifles and J-bullets, the quick openers definitely work better, but occasionally a deer just doesn't fall as quickly as one would expect. Whether this is due to a particular deer being basically "tougher," or whether it's due to ballistics, I do not know. Some say if you shoot when a deer has inhaled, you get different results than when it has exhaled. I'm dubious of this, but in reality, I have no real evidence on which to base my dubiousness other than basic instinct inferring from my prior experience overall. FMJ's, even, CAN often be rather more effective than we seem to have reason to expet. Is it the mental/emotional state of the deer at impact? That's something we can never really know, and that's also what makes all this stuff so exasperatingly interesting. If anyone ever figures it all out, you're a heckuva' lot smarter than THIS ol' redneck! THAT much is for SURE!

[Blackwater]

GS, just had another thought. Soft lead alloys tend to stick together as a mass inexplicably well, at least that's what I've noted anyway, while harder alloys tend to fracture much more readily. This gives the softer alloy a greater tendency, I'd think, to give both penetration AND expansion, and both CAN contribute to the "stoppng effect" you've noted. J-bullets typically have at least somewhat hardened cores, mostly I think due to the higher velocities at which they're typically shot these days. This is to ensure better and more reliable penetration, depending on caliber. I've long been at least a little surprised at the effectiveness of the age old .30/30 when compared to the results of many "more powerful" modern calibers, and I think you've hit on the reason it works so well. It's long been noted that just about every RN or FP bullet in .30 cal. is designed for the speeds achieved for the good ol' .30/30, and also for use on deer sized critters. Thus, its performance on game has been pretty consistent and very appropriate, generally. Using soft cast only enhances what it has to offer, I'd think, maximizing both penetration (what there is of it that's necessary on game the size of deer), while simultaneously enhancing expansion as well - more or less the best of both worlds. Now you've REALLY got me intrigued! The worst performers of all seem to be, at least considered overall on deer, specifically, the "modern" 'fast' calibers using "premium bullets that are generally designed for larger game and to ensure deeper penetration, which simply isn't needed on your average whitetail deer. Thus, they act more comparable to FMJ's, though they DO expand. That expansion comes too late in the penetration phase for them to maximize their effect on light boned and smaller whitetails, vs. their effect of much larger game. Thus, deer shot with these "premium" bullets tend to run much further and more often than those shot with more conventional j-bullets, or good cast loads. I was in the LGS one day and this yuppie type came in and was bragging about how is deer "only went 75 yds. after the shot and piled up." Being in the mood, and mostly due to his bragadocious attitude, I said, "Huh! I use regular cup and core bullets and Nosler BT's, and my deer usually die in the tracks they were standing in at the shot. How do you call going 75 yds. an improvement on that?" The guy never answered me, and found something attractive, apparently, on the other side of the shop just then. Funny how these things work, ain't it? :bigsmyl2:

The "young lions" coming up seem to read the glossy magazines a lot, and fest themselves out with all the doodads and geegaws available, no matter what the price, and think "Now I'm READY," but their results aren't what their grandfathers used to get with MUCH less ado and gear and attitude. Could this possibly be what you were referring to when you noted how most people "think" when they choose their gear above?

I've long wondered what would happen when a big .45/70 bullet would do when it met a charging lion. Not sure I'd want to see it charge, but .... if it did, I think it'd boil down to where it was placed, rather than whether it was "powerful enough." I suspect you'd concur?

[MBTcustom]

Which bullet manufacturer uses hard cores in their bullets? What is this information based on?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I read a test for penetration between a .458 Win Mag and a .45-70. The .458 was pushing a 510 gr soft point at 2100fps and the .45-70 a 450 gr cast solid at 1600fps.

The medium was wet newsprint. Both bullets expanded during their travels.

The .458 penetrated 44."

The 45-70 penetrated 48."

The reasoning behind this had to do with the shock wave that precedes the bullet as it moves thru the target
medium.

This shock wave is what you all are saying is killing the animal.

In the case of the .45-70 the shock wave disrupted the bullets penetration less because the shock wave was allowed to move in front of the boolit as it passed thru, and also may have been smaller in actual size, which allowed the slower boolit to retain more energy longer than the .458 bullet which essentially broke thru the shock wave similar to breaking the sound barrier. As such the faster bullet used up it's energy faster by creating a larger shock wave, and penetrated less even though it was traveling 25% faster before it hit the target.

This is a simple explanation of what is being stated so many different ways above.

One bullet trades it's energy for penetration and the shock wave is of a Lower Amplitude, and the other trades it's energy for a Higher Amplitude wave resulting in less penetration.

All Bullets create a shock wave as they enter a target. The size and frequency of that wave is what is doing all the work.

But what no one can answer definitively is,,, which type of shock wave is most efficient at killing the animal.

And that is because there are other factors in play and one is Exact Bullet Placement. It will never be exactly the same from animal to animal. They can be close but they will never be exactly the same.

Also the animals will be different just like people are different. Some are just tougher than others.

If the animals were exactly the same then it would serve to reason that given the exact same bullet placement, the results should be the same every time.

It is obvious that this is not the case in the real world.

I watch a lot of Outdoor Channel TV and the Bow Hunters all seem to kill deer and the faster bows (above 300 fps) all get complete pass thru even with Rage Broad heads which are 2.5"+ in dia.

The deer run 50 yards which equates to about 15 seconds after being hit thru the lungs and die. And as long as they are double lunged they all die with in 15-30 seconds. Elk too.

There is no significant shock wave in play here, just a hole cut thru the animal, and yet they all die quickly.

Comparing this to bullets is not apples to oranges,,, it is direct.

There are only two ways to kill something,,, Hemorrhaging, or Central Nervous System shutdown.

The slower bigger boolit works pretty much the same way as the arrow in that it pokes a hole thru the animal and the animal dies from bleed out,,, in some cases slower than the arrow.

All DRT kills are a result of Destructive Shock to the Central Nervous System above a certain level or cutting a major nerve. That level of shock has to be sufficient to flip the on/off switch. This should be a moot point, other wise the animal would run.

Even when shot by an arrow a DRT is as a result of the Central Nervous System being broken. Usually a neck or high back shot that impinges on the spine. Or in the case of a .22 LR, a Brain Shot.

As far as which boolit is better? There are simply too many variables to answer that question definitively. But given those variables which ever bullet delivers one or the other method of killing the animal,,, will be the better one on "That Shot."

The phrase YMMV,,, is the only definitive answer to all of these questions.

In all cases the ultimate answer will be " if this happens, then that is the result."

This is the very definition of "Your Mileage May Vary!"

Randy

[cainttype]

"The other popular contemporary misconception results from the belief that the rapid "transfer" of the kinetic energy of the bullet thereby kills instantaneously through "hydrostatic shock". This term gets used rather loosely to describe quite a lot of things, including some actual wound mechanics, but for the sake of the following discussion I confine my reference to purported effects induced far from the wound cavity that are attributable to a "shocking effect" ascribed to certain bullets or loads. I don't know where this term originated, but it is pseudoscientific slang. In the first place, these are dynamic - not static - events. Moreover, "hydrostatic shock" is an oxymoron. Shock, in the technical sense, indicates a mechanical wave travelling in excess of the inherent sound speed of the material; it can't be static. This may be a flow related wave like a bow shock on the nose of a bullet in air or it may be a supersonic acoustic wave travelling through a solid. In terms of bullets striking tissue, shock is never encountered. The sound speed of muscle tissue has been measured to be about 5150 fps, and that of fatty tissue around 4920 fps (A Cavitation Model for Kinetic Energy Projectiles Penetrating Gelatin, Henry C. Dubin, BRL Memorandum Report No. 2423, US Army Ballistic Research Laboratories, December 1974). Even varmint bullets do not have an impact velocity this high, let alone a penetration velocity exceeding 4900 fps. Unless the bullet can penetrate faster than the inherent sound speed of the medium through which it is passing, you will not observe a shock wave. Instead, the bullet impact produces an acoustic wave which moves ahead of the penetration. The initial acoustic wave causes no damage (it has been observed in testing passing harmlessly in advance of the bullet's path)."

A different take on the "shockwave" idea, excerpted form the following site...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html#energy

This is an interesting site with a large amount of info available, if you're interested in some decent reading material.

[Petrol & Powder]

I still stand by this from post #88:
"....There are three criteria that must be met in order for the projectile to be effective:
1. The projectile must be properly placed on the target (shot placement)
2. The projectile must possess enough energy to penetrate deep enough to damage something that will incapacitate the animal
3. the bullet must actually damage something that will incapacitate the animal. ...

[MBTcustom]

Rath Coombe.
I'll give him one thing, he's got a good grasp on the English language, but he should really think about shooting a few more deer and base his observations more dogmatically on reality rather than theory. Reading his essay, I can think of half a dozen instances that I have personally witnessed that would be an awful round peg to hammer into his square hole theory.

The fact is that bullet effectiveness is a classic example of "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts". If you take each one of the pieces of the equation and focus completely on each of them, you will find none of them that can properly explain what causes a bang-flop event. To do that and then conclude that shock has nothing to do with a bullet's effectiveness is utter poppycock in my opinion. Some people shoot a lot better with a keyboard than they do in reality.

[Smoke4320]

goodsteel, you should never consider using or shooting hollow point bullets. Seems you do fine all by yourself. :)


Holes kill stuff. Well placed holes kill stuff faster. BIGGER well placed holes kill stuff fasterer :)
BIGGER, well placed expanding bullets making holes kill stuff fastererest :):)

[cainttype]

I put a Sierra 140 grain pill into a smallish buck, maybe 100 lbs on the hoof, many years ago. The shot was downhill, entering high behind the shoulder and the exit line was through the heart area on the offside.
At the shot, he leapt several feet in the air, reversing direction before his feet hit the ground, and made a quick 100 yd dash before settling down at the base of a large pine.
I walked to where he was feeding when the shot rang out, to find his heart on the ground. It was almost as clean as a science class specimen, with only a few drops of blood visible in a severed artery.
The deer had an exit hole that you could easily have passed a cantaloupe through, removing most of the ribs from that side of his body... No bang-flop, and short of disassembling one on the hoof it would difficult to imagine "shocking" anything more... I never carried that load into the field again.
I fall into the permanent wound channel group, and prefer to avoid assumptions of how a projectile "might" cause incapacitation. With good shot placement, enough penetration, and a sufficient wound channel you have ALL the important bases covered.

[birddog]

Awh Hell Goodsteel it's all about the fact that I can, Actually I think they are harder to get to group as well as my solids so maybe that intriques me some. But really it's just because I can cast them and shoot them, all!!!!! No real preference to HP or solids, I'll shoot the one that groups the best for me
Charlie:drinks:

[MBTcustom]

I put a Sierra 140 grain pill into a smallish buck, maybe 100 lbs on the hoof, many years ago. The shot was downhill, entering high behind the shoulder and the exit line was through the heart area on the offside.
At the shot, he leapt several feet in the air, reversing direction before his feet hit the ground, and made a quick 100 yd dash before settling down at the base of a large pine.
I walked to where he was feeding when the shot rang out, to find his heart on the ground. It was almost as clean as a science class specimen, with only a few drops of blood visible in a severed artery.
The deer had an exit hole that you could easily have passed a cantaloupe through, removing most of the ribs from that side of his body... No bang-flop, and short of disassembling one on the hoof it would difficult to imagine "shocking" anything more... I never carried that load into the field again.
I fall into the permanent wound channel group, and prefer to avoid assumptions of how a projectile "might" cause incapacitation. With good shot placement, enough penetration, and a sufficient wound channel you have ALL the important bases covered.
I return to my video where the table cloth is pulled from under the dishes. I think that sometimes too much shock applied to quickly is detrimental and renders the hemorrhage as the only thing left to kill for you. IE: you knocked a chunk of the deer out so quick and clean that little of the shock was transferred to the nervous system (like you see very clearly in my second video).
Now the deer linked in my sig line knew I was there, was already running when I shot her, and was "ready for a fight" as it were. When I shot her, it was an instant nose dive, DRT, hang it up, slam on the breaks, put a fork in it, sudden STOP.
It is my theory that the bullet set up an energy wave in the deer, and the bullet expanded in line with that energy and followed it, making it bigger, and more effective.
The reason I worry about HP ammo is that I could see the bullet moving through this much too sudden energy wave and losing effect because of it. IE: it blows its top too quick for it's own good. Of course, there are many things that figure into this including bullet mass and speed, and size of the system being effected by it. That's why I'm trying to figure this out. I really don't want a scenario like yours (mentioned above), and I really don't care for a scenario like mine (linked in my signature) even though mine had much more desirable effect than yours did. Both of them equate to lost meat.
I would submit to you that if shock doesn't matter, and only physical damage, then why did my deer instantaneously bite the dust, but yours ran a good ways off? Why did the deer I shot with the 300WinMag run so far instead of stopping mid stride? Why did the deer I shot at 320 yards drop instantly with the same load? Why does 44Man get all the bang flops? Why do cast bullets seem to inherently trump jacketed?
Seems to me that the speed of the energy transfer, and the way it is transferred has everything to do with this equation, because trauma alone can be all over the place.
In my experience, it is much easier to have a deer go trotting off like nothing happened with a rib cage full of goo when using a FAST cartridge where the energy is transferred rapidly, than with a slow cartridge where you kill them softly with a lead laced kiss of death.
I don't know how to explain it, but I need a hypothesis that squares with reality, and I've never heard it yet.

[NoZombies]

When my soft slow hollow points do such a good job killing game, and are just as, if not more accurate than their solid counterparts, why would I bother shooting solids?

[GLynn41]

for what it is worth Veral Smith has said that when we do too much damage the kill is longer

I too once knocked a heart out ---.358 Win 225gr Sierra mzv was 2445 fps- range 30 yards --adult Tenn doe deer ran over 100 long steps and then fell down about 50 yards of the edge of a mountain-- how I do not under stand--

[44man]

Energy from a boolit is indeed needed so just a hole poked without releasing any is just a small hole that takes time for blood to leak from. Then the problem of the hide to cover the hole as an animal runs. An arrow is different, it is a very large hole and tissue cut clean does not stop bleeding. Like when you nick your face shaving.
When you mangle tissue it knits together faster because of rough edges and deer have the fastest blood to coagulate. That is why some of the magnums have deer run farther and quit bleeding faster. The question is "can you have too much damage?"
My take is YES and it will be at the meat where it seals faster while the mushed lungs continue to bleed inside. Dead for sure but can you find it? Consider two deer hit in the same place and with two different boolits, one does not drop blood for 100-200 yards and the other bleeds fast only for blood to stop in 100 yards.
It does not matter if a deer goes a distance but you must find it.
The wrong boolit from my 45-70 BFR once, I hit a big doe good and shot her again, she took off up the hill. I was able to track her and heard a rifle shot on top. Then I heard my name called. My neighbor seen her go by and shot her for me. I tried to give her to him but he refused her. That is the kind of people we have here. But it took 3 shots to bring her down.
Once in Ohio on a farm near the river during buck only, some guy I knew from work shot a small doe with a 12 ga slug, she ran and he tracked in the snow. By the time he had the little thing she had 11 slugs through her. Not much left! He asked the farmer if he could hang her in a shed but the farmer knew better so he had to sneak the doe home. I am glad it happened before we got to the farm.
Then the time in PA when I helped drag a tiny buck out. 8 point I could close my hands over the rack. Forest fed. The guy had 6 holes in the chest I could cover with a hand, hours of tracking in snow and shooting. 30-06 with 180 gr Silvertips. I don't think the deer went 80#. Wrong bullets. I told him he had moose bullets.
Had a guy here that was funny, hunting on a neighbors. He never gutted in the field. He took deer to hang before gutting. I had a deer and he had one, drove his PU into the field to pick both up. Got to my yard and he swung the wrong deer out for me. I heard a PLOP on the driveway. Got my light to find a heart that flew out of his deer. He used a 30-30!
I have seen about everything and came to many conclusions until now when I am getting it more better.
My best friend will be out next season and he has a .270. I am going to see if he will use one of my revolvers. He shakes his head when he hears me shoot to have a deer on the ground, 2 shots will be 2 deer. I am the ONLY one using them except crazy Dave but he will never hit one.

[cainttype]

The rathcoombe link was provided in order to include the point of view from someone with some technical expertise.
His conclusions may be correct, but if "shock" doesn't exist or cause damage, what is the proper term for a .284 projectile creating an exit wound in the 6"- 8" range... while disconnecting ALL the plumbing to the heart???
Something is obviously happening beyond that projectile's physical size.

After concluding that shot placement and adequate penetration are at the top of any hunting or self-defense situation, the next question in my mind is how to create an effective permanent wound channel within the target. Hollow-points (of various styles) can be utilized as an advantage in that goal.
That's why someone might "ever" consider a proper HP over a solid.
They aren't needed for every situation, but they can be a very useful tool to have in your box.

[44man]

The rathcoombe link was provided in order to include the point of view from someone with some technical expertise.
His conclusions may be correct, but if "shock" doesn't exist or cause damage, what is the proper term for a .284 projectile creating an exit wound in the 6"- 8" range... while disconnecting ALL the plumbing to the heart???
Something is obviously happening beyond that projectile's physical size.

After concluding that shot placement and adequate penetration are at the top of any hunting or self-defense situation, the next question in my mind is how to create an effective permanent wound channel within the target. Hollow-points (of various styles) can be utilized as an advantage in that goal.
That's why someone might "ever" consider a proper HP over a solid.
They aren't needed for every situation, but they can be a very useful tool to have in your box.

You are very astute.
Agree, but not in every case.

[Blackwater]

GS, about the bullet cores, most J-bullet mfg's use softer lead cores for their .30/30's for instance, than they do for their bullets made for much higher velocities in their cup and core, and probably other types of bullets. It's just one way they control the expansion rate that was necessitated by the advent of smokeless powders and its resulting much higher velocities. Many of the early bullets for high velocity rounds, like the trusty old '06 for instance, didnt' perform well at first due to a lack of understanding and experience with that velocity level, and by trial and error, mostly, they finally found out how to make reliable bullets that would expand AND still penetrate. The old Western Tool and Copper HP's, for instance, had a reputation for expanding violently and going to pieces, and some of the old curpronickel bullets for the .30/40 Krag as another example, often penetrated with the barest expansion, and to make things worse, the bullet producing companies would make changes from time to time in the bullets' construction, as was needed of course, and not publicize it, and the hunters of the day pretty much had to refer to the lot numbers of date of production or something like that to identify just what ammo they had used. That was when it was discovered that the content and hardness of cores mattered, as did thickness and tapers of the jackets, and what they were made of (pure copper, cupronickel or gilding metal, etc.). We didn't learn how to make good jacketed bullets overnight, and this was just part of the learning curve. Today's bullets would have been an absolute wonder way back when smokeless was first coming on the scene. Some of the early .30/30 bullets, for instance, might either go to pieces without much penetration, because they were too soft and too thinly jacketed, or penetrate without too much expansion if too hard a core was used, or the jacket was too thick, or maybe not tapered, etc. Back then, as with today, I'm afraid, people bad-mouthed the caliber rather than the bullet if they didn't get the results they thought they ought to be able to expect. Thus began the age old "Big Bore" vs. "Velocity" arguement, which of course has never ceased since then.

As to the .45/70 out penetrating the .458, it's really not surprising. It all depends on the bullets, and comparing penetration of a "harder" bullet in .45/70 vs. a JSP in a .458 is really comparing apples to oranges, though it certainly shows the potential that bullet selection truly does offer. As you've noted, it's all in the bullet when it comes to getting the performance you want, and again, thanks for this thread. Maybe it'll have a good effect on some who simply regard more expensive "premium" bullets as "better" just because they cost more. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course, as your experience clearly shows.

I have a friend who has shot several semi-truckloads of deer on farm damage permits. He's the one all the farmers in his area call when they have a problem with deer. He's shot them with everything from a .22 RF pistol to a .375 H&H, and his experience very much mirrors yours - that it's really all in the bullet and the damage it does that is the determinant of what kind of performance results from their use. It's all about bullet placement, and a given bullet's performance (as in .22 RF for instance) being a limiting factor in WHERE to place said bullet, and in its impact velocity and construction. Get those right and deer really ARE "easy to kill." Get them wrong, and .... oh well. Long tracking jobs.

Many don't seem to realize today the vast difference in results the bullet choice can yield, like that young man in the LGS that was bragging about his deer going "only 75 yds. after the shot." Many also don't seem to realize that 150 gr. .30 cal. bullets are mostly designed for deer, while the 180's and heavier are mostly for bigger stuff. The 165's have, from my experience at least, seemed to be a compromise between the two. They also don't realize that overdriving a bullet beyond its intended design parameters CAN turn a "deer bullet" into a "varmint bullet" when velocities get too high. Thus, they're often perplexed when the "more powerful" magnums don't kill as well as the ol' .30/30 or .308 Win., for instance. It's all about balance, and getting the best results ON TARGET that we can, and I really am intrigued with your results with the soft lead bullets. Makes total sense according to all I've observed, and explains a lot of the "don't know why he got away" crowd's failures. "More" is not ALWAYS "better." It all depends on the bullet and the damage it does and shock it creates, and though I'm sure soft lead has its limits, like everything else in the known world, you seem to have struck out on your own and proven that it CAN be used at much higher velocities than most have been currently trained to think. Good on you for that! We all too often define our "limits" by our choices rather than the realities that exist, it seems, and to find you challenging that is very refreshing.

[Harter66]

I once fired a 357 into a 4x4 with a 158 gr SWC which passed through without knocking it over the it was shot with a 95gr HP which didn't exit and knocked it end for end 2 turns. The solid bullet transfered little to nothing to the target while the HP put all 300 ftlb in the block.

Since I only get 1 deer by lottery draw here I don't have a lot of practical information to apply . I've killed a coyote at 40 yd with steel shot with a single BB in the chest cavity 4.6 ftlb from a 4.5 gr pellet the has zero deformation at about 1000 fps . She trotted about 40 yd more and rolled up more or less the same result at 60 yd on another with 00B . Same thing at 80 with a 22 mag flat point fmj . Another at 150 with and 85 gr closed HP from a 25-06 and half the dog was sprayed across a 10 ft half circle . None of these went any distance and in only 1 case (massive overkill ) was expansion a factor in death.

This year I have a cartridge boolit and rifle that are such a near perfect match in traditional cast context that unless the shot is just too long it should be a thing of beauty . The bullet in spite of its small caliber has a 50% meplat round nose shoulders and at 50/50 WW / 1-20 should provide sufficient depth and some expansion . It has reached jacketed speeds and legal energy requirements. The only thing to sweat is a shoulder joint on a 300 lb mulie doe.

For the record I've seen a dozen 117gr 25 cal partitions in conditions from wadded up in a chunky ball so bad nose/base was questionable to shotguned out the off side .

In the case of the cast rifle RNFP I don't see how an HP applied to real world tuned loads there would be a major advantage .

2 yrs ago I shot 3 hogs with a 45 Colts 16" carbine 92'. The 1st at 17yd already juiced up ran 200+ yd ,in high on the left shoulder out the middle of the right missing all the bones save 1 rib going in. The 2nd was straight up from the elbow leg forward ,3 broken ribs, 5 steps . The 3rd I could have almost cut its throat as easy as shot it , 5 broken ribs in 2 short ribs out and a half moon through most of the inside of the ham . 1075 fps 265 gr Lee 452-252 SWC. All 3 had the same lung and heart damage . All 3 were 135 - 165#

We did shoot 3 deer 1 yr at the same 80 ish yards with the same bullet out of 2 rifles at the same speed . 1 hit in a locked up seizure knocked directly off its feet,hit high on the ribs .2nd was hit quartering away back of the on shoulder to the front of the off shoulder ,1 jump about 20 ft . 3 rd was the standing in that magazine perfect broadside in and out 5-6 inches above the sternum just a little to far back to actually get the heart. It stood for an eternity (ok 15 seconds tops but I seemed like forever) then 2 of us closed in at 80 yd we could see the blood gush out and every hair standing straight out. It finally collapsed and took a 357 finish to disconnect the brain .
3 exits all the size of a baseball with a half dollar skin hole and bone and fragment shotguning around the hole. The only difference in hits was spine distance. I'm sure that was why the 1st locked up and was knocked over was just raw CNS disruption ,call it whatever you want the spinal cord went off line . The stander was simple shock no doubt there was an adrenaline her age but the pumps failed and the whole system locked up and crashed. The jumper was no doubt pure reflex and similar to the stander. 3 jacketed SPBT at 2700 fps, 1 308 2 3006 . You have 2 very extreme bullet examples 6 similar animals 5 different ends. Except for the part where they were all dead walking.

I think that a even the 301618 from a softened WW alloy would do what 1 would expect from a 308 or 06' to 250yd and over 80 a face to face in the woods with a shoulder joint would be a huge mess . 150 out to 300 yd with an HP in the same of .065 to .085 .250 deep would work, under 100 I'd bet on spray.

I think this is a place where you will have to take a hard honest look at where an what you will shoot ,in all 3 contexts of game ,cal and boolit. Get those 5 to meet someplace and add 10% to the upper extreme and hope you keep you wits long enough to be above the base minimum by 25% and you'll be golden . And only have to carry 2 loads .

[Blackwater]

Here's some more interesting info. I've never owned a .25/06 myself, but have had a number of friends who've used them. In almost all cases where the 100 gr. Nos BT's were used, or the 100 gr. Sierra cup and core spitzers, and driven to max or near max velocities, they've almost uniformly produced bang/flops, or at worst, the deer only went a few steps before piling up. My son's 6mm. Rem. with the 85 gr. Speer PSPBT produced over 30 kills, all bang/flops, from 12 to 350 yds., all but the 12 yarder being body hits. The 12 yarder was one I shot in the head.

Yet we've all seen the big magnums fail to produce bang/flop, DRT instant kills. This paradox is surely due to SOMETHING, but what, we haven't yet figured out, but it's good to see GS on the trail of it. I think a lot of us have wondered about this for a long, long time, and it's good to see someone actually pursuing the answer with a vengeance like GS is doing. You certainly have my gray matter perculating!

Barring CNS shots, like my brainer on that doe I shot at 12 yds. with my son's 6mm., I think you may be onto something with your shock wave theory. Since shock waves could actually work on the nerve networks as a whole, and since nerved DO control our reflexes and ability to move, it seems to me this is the real key to it all. I'm just not sure how it works, or what the cause is. Your "low frequency shock wave" theory is the best I've heard to date, though, and I'm wondering if "overdriving" a bullet, such as HP's driven to fast to penetrate effectively, might be a factor in failures? What do you think?

It's long been known that soft lead tends to hold together very well, due to whatever elements of physics and chemistry that may be involved, and your soft solids may, I think, be "chasing" that shock wave and spreading it and reinforcing it along the bullet's path more closely than say, a magnum with j-bullets, which outruns that shock wave and actually does less damage physically as well? What do you think? That it's more HOW the shock wave is driven through the body, and whether it tends to be reinforced by the bullet's passage, or lessened by the bullet's outrunning the wave, that causes the bang/flop phenomena is all I've been able to come up with, but it's a fascinating subject for any of us who just simply want to KNOW these things, and not just sit and wonder about them. My theory is kind'a akin to "harmonics," in a way. What do you think?

[44man]

We will never know but the effort here is so important. In the end we never want to lose an animal or lose the meat either. Worse then just losing an animal is ruining all the meat.
Would you hunt squirrels with a .220 Swift?
Many just take a deer to a butcher and it is when you do your own that you learn.

[jhalcott]

I've shot MANY deer with many bullets /boolits from various guns. I have yet to see the effect I EXPECT to see after the trigger is pulled! Two crop raider does shot within minutes of each other reacted differently, one ran 60 yards the other bang,flop. Same gun SAME load only about 10 yards difference in impact range. I've used 223,22-250 to 45-70 rifle and handgun to "harvest" deer. I am prepared to track them after a perfect shot but hope it's a short walk!

[jhalcott]

One thing I've found with cast ,is a flat nose has MORE terminal effect on deer than round nose or pointy types!

[waksupi]

I have found the average distance traveled by deer or elk shot well (Heart/lungs) with a flat nosed boolit to be between 25-30 yards. When I still used jacketed bullets, they tended to go quite a bit further.

[44man]

The only time I seen a round nose work is either a pure RB or big soft boolit from BP like a 45-70.
It is still hard to beat the old guns.

[Blackwater]

Jhalcott's comments re the FN's is pretty much a given, now. Given the same bullet wt., expansion, caliber and impact velocity, a FN seems to give more of a "whack" effect, just like hitting the water in the pool with the flat of one's hand produces more "shock," which is the reason your hand stings

In musing about all this, I've noted that a 130 gr. .270 seems to produce a bit quicker/more reliable bang/flops than the 150 gr. '06, and that the .25/06 with 100 gr. bullet seems most likely to produce the quickest/deadest bang/flops of all. I wonder if the lighter bullets don't slow down at a higher rate than the heavier, larger diameter ones, when it hits flesh. Then it stuck me that all substances, water and flesh alike, have more or less specific rates at which shock waves CAN be transmitted though them with good efficiency. Sound waves, for instance, have a pretty constant rate of travel in water, which is something on the order of 4700 fps. IIRC (?). I have no idea what the transmission velocity in flesh would be, and of course flesh isn't nearly as homogeneous a material as water, so it'd vary, I'm sure, especially when comparing light, fluffy stuff like lung material to heavier/tighter muscle tissue, etc. Still, there might be something to the speculation that the rate of transfer of the bullet's energy, and the shock wave resulting from that impact, MAY (?) have something to do with how efficiently that energy from the shock wave is transmitted to the tissues in question, and therefore, how the nerves necessary to shut down flight would react. This is sheer speculation, of course, and conjecture, but that's where all theory has to start out in really intriguing questions like this. Can anyone take this set of parameters further? I'm plum dang thunk out on it!

[44man]

I should amend that, a RN works if it has some upset. So will a more pointy boolit. Just don't make them hard

[44man]

Now lungs are full of a lot of air too that will compress. If they were all liquid, results would lean to hydrostatic shock.
This hunting has not proven easy and not a single answer will cover everything.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This hunting has not proven easy and not a single answer will cover everything.

I believe I stated this is excruciating detail In post #100 which was completely ignored.

Randy

[Blackwater]

Oops! Left out the thought (question?) that as a bullet strikes, it is slowed by the animal's flesh and bone and whatever. The RATE at which it slows might (?) coincide better or worse with the rate at which the initial shock wave passes through the medium. If it coincides more closely with the rate at which the shock wave is passing through, then the effect on the nervous system may be enhanced. More or less, what I'm referring to here is a reinforcement of the initial shock wave, so that the initial shock wave is buttressed and enhanced by the rate at which the bullet continues its penetration and expansion, so that the initial shock is only part of the effect, and the effect is magnified and sustained by the continuation and reinforcement of that wave continues through the flesh with the bullet's continuing penetration and expansion through the flesh/organs/whatever. It's sort of a "harmonics" idea, like one sees in guitars, machinery, etc. Bridges have fallen and failed due to simple harmonics of vibrations, so if they can bring down a very strong bridge, maybe it can bring down game as well, or at least play a significant part in it? Sure is interesting, and I think 44man is right, we'll likely never really know the TRUE and ultimate answer, but most hunters have dealt with the issue in one manner or another at some time in their shooting life, I think.

Paco Kelly's little tool for flat pointing .22's is another example of flat pointing a bullet and having it make a very large difference in the bullet's effect on game, and it IS pronounced. Much to think about, when there's time to do so. So many questions, so few real answers!

[gwpercle]

Because they look real cool. Those pentagon shaped hollow points are not only cool but wicked looking too.
Gary

[OnHoPr]

The only time I seen a round nose work is either a pure RB or big soft boolit from BP like a 45-70.
It is still hard to beat the old guns.

After shooting a few deer with .44 Gold Dots, Noslers, TC Shockwaves, and one or two more, the RB seemed to kill faster even with less powder in the MZLDR. I thought I would give the Lee 240 gr RN a try. It is basically a RB with lube grooves and a flat base for a saboted projectile with a touch better BC. I cast them 75 Pb/ 25 WW just enough to keep boolit integrity on setback and possibly slight obturation with over 100 gr PDecks (got to play with the keyboard, my ecks quit working). With 120 gr it seems to be accurate and soft enough for the 200 yd shots. Deer haven't gone over 50 yds with the load. But, like I mentioned in my previous post sometimes deer on PL in MI seem to like the real thick stuff where you have to clear a few alleys just to get a 50 to 75 yd shot. They can also be on the move which doesn't give you a lot of dillydally time to get a shot off, especially in the twinights.

That's why I mentioned the WQWW 44 310's & 50 500's in my previous post. I think if the soft boolit was to hit brush like a 3/4" maple or june berry sapling the nose would deform. The boolit would still be spinning on its center with a deformed nose making the weight center non concentric thus helping to throw the boolit off sight path along with deflection. Whereas the hard cast would not deform and would keep to the sight path more. The soft boolit would also deplete more energy on the brush than the hard cast leaving more ponder to the penetration with raking shots with the more possibility of an ecksit wound on animals hunted in those type of scenarios.

Back 16 years ago I was hunting in basic hardwood ridges with the TC loaded with a saboted 44 240 gr Nosler (tuff boolit, I think maybe Nosler designed it for something like the 444 marlin because of the pistol bullets being used in the factory ammo) and 150 gr of powder. Right about the time you start saying to yourself "well it starting to get dark" a doe walked out in front of me about 75 yds, I took the shot for behind the front shoulder center mass. The gun was sighted in 2.5" high for the longer shots. I hit the flat part of the blade and the deer took off. I went to check it out and there was hair on the ground and the deer ran over a little rise about 50 yds away. 15 yards before the hair was a 1 1/4" white oak sapling with a hole dead center in it and looking like it was ready to buckle. I didn't even notice the sapling in the scope on 5 power, that type of brush can disappear at twinight. I said I would go check it out in the morning because of darkness and the deer went over the rise about another 30 or 40 yards, so all in all less than a hundred. The boolit's path didn't seem to be effected by the sapling though and it was an easy pass through on the deer. There were only a few spots of blood in the little tracking walk. I found a copper jacket in the healed foreleg of that tasty doe when I butchered it.

[NYBushBro]

Without going through 7+ pages of opinions, lets set the record straight - the ORIGINAL purpose of hollow point rifle bullets (not counting the 'Dum Dum') - was to create 'Express bullets' (increased velocity black powder cartridge in the 19th century) for 'increased killing power' for homegrown cast bullets, particularly at extended ranges (I am thinking WESTERN hunting ranges, NOT Eastern hunting ranges.)

I have a number of HP molds designated 'EXP' (particularly from Winchester molds) which substantiate this.

PS: Look up the old Ideal catalogues for further proof - including placing a thin paper between mold halves (one of the first 'Rube Goldberg' methods of simulating a HP mold).

[NYBushBro]

NOTE: the 'mushroom' works (which is why copper 'patched' bullets have copied this principle for over a hundred years).

[longbow]

Well, lots of opinions and two main schools of thought where one says hollow points work and one says they either do not or at least are not needed.

Going back to goodsteel's original post, his statement was: "Belly up to the keyboard, and explain to me why I should ever consider using HP bullets rather than my soft cast."

While he did not state the specific purpose of the hollow point boolit he did mention killing power... but killing what with what caliber gun, rifle or handgun, and at what range? It all matters. There is no one answer.

A varmint hunter with a small bore rifle has different requirements than a guy hunting medium to large game with a large caliber handgun or rifle. It is hard to cast a big nasty flat point on a .22 boolit. Someone looking for a boolit for urban self defense with a handgun has a much different requirement than a hunter (flash back to the 400 gr. Ross Alley Cleaner for instance).

Why do I like hollow points? Mostly because I like to blow stuff up like water jugs. I also wanted some lightweight boolits for plinking and having fun whilst not using up large amounts of lead. It works for me.

Why should goodsteel use hollow point boolits? He doesn't have to if he doesn't want to. Apparently he is getting exactly what he wants from his soft cast boolits.

Me, I like options and I like having fun. Hollow points are part of that equation for me. As for casting them with a Mihec Cramer mould ~ no problem at all!

Different strokes for different folks! My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[NoZombies]

I didn't read the original post as a knowledge seeking venture as much as I did a statement of assumed superiority.

GoodSteel seems to have taken the position that his opinion is right, and someone else must 'prove' him wrong. Maybe his opinion is right, maybe it isn't.

I think the question is a good one, I just wish it had been asked in a less divisive manner.

These threads always bring up a lot of chest thumping and hurt feelings and I'm getting tired of seeing so much animosity between different 'camps'.

If I'm reading it wrong, I apologize.

[MBTcustom]

I didn't read the original post as a knowledge seeking venture as much as I did a statement of assumed superiority.

GoodSteel seems to have taken the position that his opinion is right, and someone else must 'prove' him wrong. Maybe his opinion is right, maybe it isn't.

I think the question is a good one, I just wish it had been asked in a less divisive manner.

These threads always bring up a lot of chest thumping and hurt feelings and I'm getting tired of seeing so much animosity between different 'camps'.

If I'm reading it wrong, I apologize.

I don't see any hurt feelings anywhere, and in fact I see the best discussion of this subject that has happened in a long time. I wrote the OP in a provocative manner, this is true, but I did so not to hurt or to tear down but to draw out information, and to educate.
After reading this thread, and seeing all the wonderful replies by more educated booliteers than myself, I have a much deeper understanding of what, where, when, why, and how much. These key questions have been answered pretty succinctly here.
I gave my opinion, and some might find it offensive because it was based on incomplete information. A statement of "LFN is always the right answer" is not a true statement, but if a man were to seclude himself to rifles and handguns of 358 caliber and greater, he might very easily come to think exactly as I have, (you can't argue with the "results" in the thread in my sig line. Think I should have HPed it too? LOL!) but that opinion was flawed and incomplete nonetheless, and my mind has been broadened. I was not going to change my stance unless somebody could make an intelligent argument for the HP cast bullet, and there were actually quite a few who did so, and as a result, my mind has been changed for the better.
Seems to me through this thread, the HP bullet really shines in sub 8mm diameter bullets. I honestly didn't know that, and I'm glad I asked because my wife hunts with a Savage 340C in 30-30 loaded with 311466FN. Believe me, I will be HPing all my 30 caliber hunting bullets, and hers too.


Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond to my challenge and to give your true opinion on this matter! Some of what you have said has indeed changed my opinion, and I see that HP bullets have a place, and are not just for looks (OK, they look kewl too). Now I know when and where to use them, but more importantly, so does everyone else who reads this thread.

Castboolits is the finest forum on the internet, simply because even though threads like this could devolve into mud slinging, there's enough truly educated people here that an extremely informative and intelligent conversation can be had.
Thank you my friends!

[w30wcf]

I prefer a flat nosed cast bullet to a h.p. cast bullet for hunting big game. But for varmints.....

A bit of history - 100 years ago, Ideal claimed that this h.p. increased killing power by 50% (!)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/42498424991.jpg

From Keith's SIXGUNS
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/42499Hollowpointreference.jpg

w30wcf

[44man]

I see all kinds of opinions without any anger and it is how it should be because opinions are so important as well as how each has worked.
I had to laugh about OnHoPr shooting through a tree and the deer. Brings up penetration. That can fuel many arguments in itself.
One evening it was getting dim and a buck came flying by about 40-50 yards. I had my .44 with my 330 gr boolit, WLN. I swung a lead and just as the gun went off I seen brush. It scared the deer and he jumped back out from behind it and I dropped him. When I got to him, it was not brush but an osage orange tree with two trunks, each 10" in diameter. My boolit went all the way through one and buried itself in the second. That is one of the toughest trees ever.
Besides the Lee 310, it is one of my best deer boolits, always puts them down fast.
Many will say I waste energy and it has never proven so because of where energy is used.
Penetration can open another whole can of worms. Any discussion on it will always bring in BG shooting and I admit, it will put a BG down and maybe 10 other people but I shoot deer in safe areas where a boolit will never go astray.
When we discuss hunting I wish some would never bring up creep shooting, that is all different.
But if you were facing a hoard of black hooded terrorists, what boolit would you want?
I won't open that can but I also see a place for a HP.
This has been a great discussion.

[Blackwater]

Just for good measure on the subject of killing/stopping power, here's another set of parameters that I've always wondered about. I've had a couple of friends who at one time used .22/.250's for deer. One was recoil sensitive in the extreme, and tended to flinch with anything larger (his was a heavy barrel as well) and the other just wanted to try it to see if it'd work. They got absolutely great results for a number of deer. At first they placed the bullets up close behind the shoulder, but gradually worked out towards the last ribs. They then made a pact that whichever got a deer, the other had to clean it, and one gutshot one, and the other paid him back by intentionally gutshooting another as "payback." He really had a weak stomach for cleaning gutshot anything, and figured this was appropriate since it didn't seem to matter where they hit with the little bullets, they still seemed to drop at the shot. Then, in the space of a week or two, they started having deer run off. Was the problem a new batch of bullets with thinnner jackets or softer cores? They were using 55 gr. Hornadys, not the SX's but the std. PSP. This is possible, but whatever the reason, after losing some 3 or 4 deer after a string of instant stops, they abandoned the .22/.250 and went back to bigger bullets. Why these small, fast, light bullets kill like lightning one time, and wound the next is mainly attributed to lack of penetration, but I'm still not certain how such small, fast bullets kill as spectacularly as they do. Hydrostatic shock, or whatever you want to call it, acting on the CNS seems to be the only answer, and that can come only from their velocity, since bullet wt. and wound diameter just aren't there. Apparently, velocity nearly alone CAN cause incapacitation, IF it's accompanied by reasonable penetration. As has been noted, the more we learn about these things, the more truly mysterious they can become. If anyone ever figures it all out, please let me know. Until then, I'll stick with what I've observed in my and other trusted friends get for results, but many thanks to Goodsteel for this thread, and the opportunity to communicate a little more, and maybe learn a thing or two. It's been frustratingly FUN!

[TXGunNut]

[QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;3321461]I believe I stated this is excruciating detail In post #100 which was completely ignored.

Randy[at /QUOTE]

I read it, good post. Pretty sure I read the test referred to as well. My opinion is that a 40 gr bullet from a 22lr or a 100gr broadhead on a cedar shaft or maybe even a well-placed rock can put game on the ground and meat in the freezer. My experience is that a reasonably well-placed 35 or 45 caliber heavy FP boolit moving along between 1500-2000 fps will put game on the ground and meat in the freezer.
I enjoy plinking with 30 and 32 caliber rounds and I feel they can be effective hunting rounds but I want to do everything I can to ensure that the critter dies quickly, humanely and if at all possible, close to where it was standing when I shot it. I'm well aware of the variables involved, that's why I want to do everything I can to minimize their impact. I truly don't know how a 30 caliber boolit will perform on game but I have a sweet Savage 99 in 300 Savage, a NOE RG mould and I'm willing to do my part to make it work. A Savage 99 isn't good for much other than hunting and it's done a pretty fair job of it over the last 100+ years, willing to bet more than a few boolits have helped it along the way.
There's no question big & slow works. Folks like me who have seen the magic of a big meplat on a big boolit it's hard to step down to a smaller caliber but a HP helps with that transition if we feel the HP will result in the large frontal area we've come to trust.
HP's aren't exactly new technology but when it comes to lead HP's and hunting I'm way outside my comfort zone and this thread has helped be learn more about the subject. I'll be taking that 300 Savage hunting someday, quite possibly with HP boolits. But you can bet that 45-70 won't be sitting at home in the safe, lol.

[44man]

W R, I too read your post and it was not ignored. Good post too but sometimes there is no response because it is agreed with.

[MBTcustom]

I agree with 44man.
You have a tendency to wax long of the keyboard and say everything that needs to be said. Often, it is so thorough and well written, it is assumed the post is an anchor point for the conversation, needing no agreement, and bulwarked against any rebuttal.
Therefore, it goes unanswered but very much noticed.
Thank you for your contribution!

[44man]

I agree with 44man.
You have a tendency to wax long of the keyboard and say everything that needs to be said. Often, it is so thorough and well written, it is assumed the post is an anchor point for the conversation, needing no agreement, and bulwarked against any rebuttal.
Therefore, it goes unanswered but very much noticed.
Thank you for your contribution!
I wish I had your way with words, said so well so I thank you too.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK, I feel better now ! :mrgreen:

Randy

[jhalcott]

Over the last 70 years Ihave tried a LOT of guns with Boolits ! I have a pointy 45-70 mold and a flatpoint one of almost equal weight. I cast some soft nose/ WW body bullets from the pointy one and some ACWW ones from the other mold. I set up some wetpack phone books as targets at 50 yards. Several shots from each type( same powder charge and gun) showed little difference in penetration depth. A larger wound channel SEEMED to occur with the soft nosed bullets. I then had access to a lathe and HPed some of the FN's. After repeating the wetpack test, the soft nose boolits still made a larger hole in the wetpack, BUT depth of penetration was less with the HP's. The wetpack was almost 25" in length. Smaller diameter bullets will not reach this depth in wetpack in MY experience unless cast quite hard. Which inhibits expansion. I've shot Linotype boolits into wax tubes to test expansion/penetration thru my 223 and 22-250. Hped types often break off at the hollow point depth and only the base continues on for several inches. This is fine for groundhog shooting.

[MBTcustom]

Over the last 70 years Ihave tried a LOT of guns with Boolits ! I have a pointy 45-70 mold and a flatpoint one of almost equal weight. I cast some soft nose/ WW body bullets from the pointy one and some ACWW ones from the other mold. I set up some wetpack phone books as targets at 50 yards. Several shots from each type( same powder charge and gun) showed little difference in penetration depth. A larger wound channel SEEMED to occur with the soft nosed bullets. I then had access to a lathe and HPed some of the FN's. After repeating the wetpack test, the soft nose boolits still made a larger hole in the wetpack, BUT depth of penetration was less with the HP's. The wetpack was almost 25" in length. Smaller diameter bullets will not reach this depth in wetpack in MY experience unless cast quite hard. Which inhibits expansion. I've shot Linotype boolits into wax tubes to test expansion/penetration thru my 223 and 22-250. Hped types often break off at the hollow point depth and only the base continues on for several inches. This is fine for groundhog shooting.

That seems to mirror my real life experience to a T.
Very interesting!
Thank you for sharing.

Like I said before, most of my experience has been with 35 caliber and larger bullets from rifles. In that window, I still feel the soft cast bullet cannot be beat by a HP for expansion that drives deep, but then agian, all my HP experience (not much) has been with the cavernous flying ashtray variety. I'm not 100% sure what happens when you use a big hard bullet with a small unassuming HP drilled in them. Hmmmmm

[kens]

My experience with deer hunting is that I WANT the boolit (bullet) to exit the far side.
The exit wound is by far bigger than the entry wound. An entry wound is about the size of caliber at hand.
If the projectile stays inside the animal, all you have for a blood trail is the entry wound.
The exit wound is bigger than the mushroomed bullet (boolit) and then some more.
I have NEVER had to track a deer that had a exit wound.
Exit wounds let the blood out & the cold air in!!!

[cainttype]

Proper HPs exit, in both hunting and self-defense scenarios. The difference hunting with HPs in medium-to-smaller diameters is that they can afford larger exit diameters at longer ranges when velocities are dropping, and you are wanting to maximize the on-target effect.
Problems associated with fragmentation and lack of penetration can be traced to user error. Match design, alloy, and impact velocities properly and those "problems" will be non-issues.

[OnHoPr]

W.R.Buchanan Post #100

I have seen high speed pics of boolits with the air or sound shock wave in front of them in midflight. The larger metplat ones seemed to produce a wider wave disruption. More speed would produce a larger wave. This goes hand in hand with the BC of the boolit. Your content about how the wave goes through a different medium is interesting to think about. Whether it is sound, pneumatic, or hydrostatic will be contemplated on. Back in Jr. High School they had a show and one ecksibition was a guy with a sicks shooter and blanks, like the movies supposedly use. He held an open telephone book in his left hand and fired at it with his right hand. Let’s say there was a bunch of confetti flying in the air. Was that speed, sound or pneumatic shock?

Edit addition; A couple of days before deer season back in the '80s I just got done loading up a couple of boxes of 51.5 of 52 gr of imr 4895 underneath a sierra 150 prohunter in the 06 for the 18.5" barreled 760 Rem. We went to the picnic table to sightin. My, I think it was a 69 chevy 3/4 ton, was parked close to 20 yds away. The first shot completely shattered the back window glass just from the muzzle blast and sound and just before deer season. That cost $30 bucks and a day.

Now, to get to your comments with the bow, “And as long as they are double lunged they all die with in 15-30 seconds.” I have shot a few deer with a bow. One of the first was with an eccentric wheel 60# compound with the arrow weight I was using it was about 200 fps. I shot a doe from the tree stand about 13 yds in between the blade and spine with the *** directly towards me. The arrow stopped at the sternum bruising it about the size of a tangerine. I watched the deer run for 150 yds around the 2 acre cranberry grass lake I was set up near with the arrow bouncing around like an egg beater. It never dropped any blood, but about the time it went out of sight it started kicking up dirt & leaves in front of its steps. The deer went about a ¼ mi and its lung(s) were all tore up, never found the arrow. With a spike I shot at about the same distance with a High energy wheel 70# compound just off from being broadside angled away right behind the front shoulder pass through and into the ground ran a long way after I heard it hit the ground after about 60 yds. I never did find that buck. I even took the next day off work to look for it. I shot another spike just slightly angled towards me broadside @ 15 yds. The arrow hit the humerus dead center just above center. The arrow was out each side of the deer and finally broke in half after about 50 yds and fell out from hitting brush. About a half an hour later I jump it about 200 yds away, so I backed off. The next day a couple of us went to find it and it went about 600 yds. The shot SMASHED the humerus (that was a thud) from shoulder to elbow, went through both lungs and put two slices in the heart, but not all the way into the ventricle. Arrow used on the last two were over 540 grains and sharp. That bow could knock over a 60 lb straw bale standing on end sometimes. I hand sharpen my broadheads, except Razorback 5’s.

In Trad shooting and with the old Bear Whitetails & Whitetails II days there was always a debate whether to have a pass through or leave the arrow in the chest cavity to act like an egg beater when the deer ran and the arrow was hitting brush to do more damage. I have seen deer run a long way and a short way with pass through and leaving the broadhead in the chest cavity.

“There are only two ways to kill something,,, Hemorrhaging, or Central Nervous System shutdown.”

I have a TC Encore with two configurations in 300 winny and 209 50. It shoots fairly decent, but it every so often pulls to the left between 3 to 6 inches. I don’t know what is causing such behavior. I don’t know if it is my smallish crippled hands with a big stock, the stock, the action stressing, the way I grip it different somehow, the stock stressing or what, southpaw. But, anyways a couple of years ago on opening day I happened to look to my right for a bit then when I looked to my left there was a stocky 5 pt to my 10:00 position about shy of 50 yd going away. I put the crosshairs where the bullet should have ecksited behind the opposite front shoulder. I shot and the buck started a medium paced walk, so I loaded another round in and the angle that it was at that time was almost directly away from me and the right haunch was covering any vitals shot. So, I decided to shoot it in the lower left ham femur artery just above the knee. That shot was about 65 yds. The deer kept up with its medium pace. I said to myself “WHAT”, is my scope off. Then I saw the deer starting to stumble about a hundred yds away and it went out of sight. I gave it a couple of minutes before checking what just happened. There was no hair no blood from the shot to where I saw the deer stumble, but when I got to that spot I seen the deer dead about another 20 ahead, general hardwoods. The deer was sitting on its belly & chest, the first time I seen that, all the ones I seen were dead on their side. The nose and mouth were foaming with bright red blood. Now, here’s the stickler data. It just so happens that the first shot happened to be one of those pulled to the left miss happenings and I gut shot it. That boolit went into the center of the guts and stopped just under the hide close to the diaphragm. It didn’t hit lungs. The second shot hit just where I aimed just above the knee about 5” on the inside of the lower ham breaking the femur and destroying the artery. That boolit didn’t ecksit the leg. The gut shot boolit was the big mushroom. The leg boolit was more or less blow up. The deer didn’t travel 100 yds from the first shot. The condition of the lungs were deflated, but not destroyed, there was a bit of blood in the guts, and the leg shot didn’t really bleed either.

SO, was this a case of hydrostatic shock???

The TC in 300 winny was used with a 165 gr Speer BT about 3000 fps. 3250 fps was too much gun or boolit for woods hunting as it is at 3000 fps with this load. It is basically my clear cut, field, power line rifle. I keep trying to tame it for the woods, but haven’t found the load yet, maybe I will try a stout 200 grainer. I lost more meat with in the past 5 or 6 years and deer run further with this cartridge at woods ranges than my whole life with the 06.

Your Mileage May Vary

[W.R.Buchanan]

OnHoPr: Your Mileage May Vary!

This phrase is another way of stating an Axiom of Human Existence.

"There are no Absolutes" ,,,, in anything.

Something for anyone to think about when they think that they know what is going on.

However,,, the more you know, the better off you are, and the more likely you are to get things to go your way.

I would say this covers everything but since "There are no absolutes",,, YMMV!

Randy

[lksmith]

For me it means bigger hole coming out and guaranteed expansion, which in my experience usually means bangflop
My 45's (45acp. 45lc. 460rowland) go in .452 and typically exit around an inch or better
9mm/38 goes in .356-.358 come out .69-.78 reliably.

However with my cramer style molds, I can cast HP's as fast as solids

[TXGunNut]

Just got my second HP mould today, a NOE/RD SC454-290RF arrived today and I recalled why I decided on the RG option over a year ago. Sometimes you just want to do something different, sometimes you just want to blow stuff up. I'm intrigued by HP lead boolits but I think the cup points make sense too.

[Blackwater]

One other thing I've thought about in this quest for trying to understand just what constitutes "killing power" in our guns, is probably well illustrated by a friend's experience in losing what he says is the biggest deer and rack he's ever seen, and he's seen and shot a LOT of deer. He once hunted a stretch of woods where a railroad track ran through a big patch of very good deer habitat. It ran for about a mile as straight as an arrow through that area, and my buddy had a very accurate .264 Win. that would literally shoot cloverleafs for 3 shots at 100. He had a Harris bipod on the front before they were popular, and used a folding chair for his seat, and as a prop for his rear hand/stock. He'd modified it so the legs were just the right height for that setup and location where he always put his chair, and had a near benchrest setup. He's also the best shot I've ever known. He used the 100 gr. PSP's and a max. load of H4831, and we didn't have a chrono back then, so don't know the speed, but it was decidedly fast from the trajectory he got with it. He chose that bullet so it'd expand at long ranges, which were typical often. And it worked extremely well. He shot quite a few deer from that old folding chair there.

Well, one day, he was sitting a stand on some power lines that had been productive, and where he'd noted some really large hoof prints, and was carrying his .264 because some really long shots were possible there. About 30 min. before dusk, in full daylight, out comes this huge buck - so big that even he, an old hand at this, did a double take. Every time he tells the story, you can see the desperation and regret in his eyes, so I know it's a true story, even though I wasn't there. He's also proven to be a very reliable reporter on these type stories many times in the past, too.

He slowly brought the .264 up, acquired the deer in the scope, and at a range of only 65 yds., pulled the trigger. BAM! The deer fell as if electrocuted! This was what he'd come to expect with that gun and bullet, and he was just sitting there in awe at this deer, and started to climb down to go to him. His buddy that day came over too, to help dress it and drag it out. They sat there admiring the deer, thinking it stone dead, when it started twitching. Then it tried to get up. With that .264, he didn't want to shoot it again lest he cut it nearly in half, which being a big venison fan, he didn't want to do. So, he just sat there expecting to see it fall over any second. It was obviously dazed greatly, and this seemed at the time to be the way to go. Then, it suddenly took a big leap and was almost instantly out of sight in thich brush. My buddy knew it was no good to try that little "varmint" type bullet through all that, and his partener that day couldn't get his gun up and on quickly enough, and the deer just ran off into the woods. They tracked it for nearly half a mile, and then, when the blood stopped, they lost it in all the tracks there, and kept looking and looking until long after dark with flashlights, until the batteries gave out, and all without success. They came back the next day and searched and searched for hours, still without success. The deer was lost.

What he and I both concur had to be the reason was that at that distance, the bullet had just gone to pieces on the surface, and failed to penetrate. Hydrostatic shock, or whatever anyone wants to call it, had knocked it down and dazed it very handily, but lack of penetration let it get away, probably to die a gruesome death.

This tragic tale (it still affects him emotionally today) illustrates the necessity of at least sufficient penetration for any use in killing an animal cleanly, AND that there really IS something to your "shock" theory, at least when it comes to most whitetails, if not larger game. The .300 Wby's results on large game like elk seems to indicate that elk, too, are not totally immune from it.

This is, I know, a rather extreme example on the other end of the spectrum from what we usually can get from cast bullets, at least conventionally, but I thought it might lend some extra credence to your concepts. FWIW?

Your post really has me intrigued, and I have a sense that there's SOMETHING in there that we're just not putting together quite in the right way and proportions to find the answer we all seek. Just thought this might provide an extreme example at that end of the whole spectrum.

[MBTcustom]

I'll be hunting with a 45-70, 35XCB, and M1A this year. I don't foresee any such situation happening to me. LOL!

[Larry Gibson]

Almost that exact same thing happened to me years ago around '70 with a 6mm Remington when I became enamored with the "high velocity hydrostatic shock" theory from reading too much Weatherby, Ackley and a few other proponents of HV and "shock". I was using an 85 gr bullet over what is now known to be a very over maximum charge of BR760. The rifle had a 26" barrel and I chronographed the load in the mid '70s when I got my 1st Oehler. The velocity was just under 3600 fps. Iwondered why case life was low as it was a "recommended load" by acouple of HV fan writers at the time. It was devastating on coyotesthough. I had become a "believer" and knew with the HV andhydrostatic shock I was deadly to as far away as I could shoot. Ihad forsaken my M94 30-30 as "obsolete" with it's slow moving 170 grjacketed and cast bullets (I had just started casting 311041s for it but hadnot shot a deer with the cast bullet yet. I had shot a lot ofdeer and several feral hogs with 170 gr Speer FPs out of that M94 though. I was to severely regret my naivety.

Anyways I was hunting on the western side of the Willamette Valley in Oregon along the foothills of the coastal mountains. The Black Tail there got quite big due to the low clear cuts, rich farm land and orchards they lived around. I was hunting up a clear cut on a skid road at daybreak intending to over watch the clear cut which had several very well used deer trails running along the edge coming off the orchards just below the clear cut. As I came around a corner I came face to face with the largest 4 point (that's an 8 pointer to you white tail hunters) black tail buck I had ever seen. He was about 30-40 yards away. The 6mm Rem M98 had a 4x12 power Weaver on it and it was set on 4X and zeroed for 250 yards. The deer just stood there looking at me straight on and I quickly raised the rifle and held about half way up under the neck under its chin. The shot broke clean and a large tuft of hair flew off exactly where I aimed. I couldn't have made a steadier off hand shot and remember thinking how powerful that was to have blown hair off like that as I had never seen that kind of "shock" before. The buck went straight over backwards onto his back and all four legs were kicking in the air. I was so sure he was instantly killed I even failed to chamber another round but simply opened the bolt and pulled the empty out so as not to loose it as I walked up to the "dead" buck as it had stopped kicking. Just as I got up to him he was on his feet and into the brush before I could do anything but look in amazement.

Well, I figured the buck was just dead on his feet so I gave him a few minutes and started tracking. Now if you've ever hunted the coastal mountains along the Pacific Coast you know what a rain forest/jungle truly is. There was absolutely no blood on the ground or on any bushes along the route the buck took. Very shortly it started raining and the buck's tracks became indistinguishable from all the other deer and cattle tracks. I searched 4 very long and hard days for that buck and never found a trace of him. The longer I searched the sicker about it I got. Not only for the poor choice of rifle, cartridge and bullet but for my own naïve reaction. I had hunted that same clear cut with the M94 before and after and in reality the HV rifle with the high power scope offered no real advantage other than that which I had conjured up in my mind. I hunted it again after this incident with both the M94 and the M98 (replaced the 4x12 with a 3x9 Redfield Accu-Range) using jacketed and the 311041 cast bullets with several success and no further failures.

I had learned a hard and valuable lesson; use the right cartridge with the right bullet for the hunting at hand.

The 6mm barrel was pulled off and that cartridge was relegated to varmint hunting as it did not fit into the style of deer hunting I was doing. However, a 6mm Remington or .243W with an appropriate 100 gr bullet is a very good deer killer under more appropriate conditions for their use. A .308W barrel was put on the M98 and I began developing mycasting/loading technique with the 311041HP for black tail deer hunting withthat cartridge and with the 30-30. The process of alloy selection and proper HP depth took a few years but has been satisfying and well worth the effort.

Larry Gibson

[Blackwater]

Thanks for your story, Larry. I'll tell my buddy about it. It won't really make him feel any better, but at least he won't feel alone. The look on his face when he tells that story is still something to see, and his event was 20+ years ago now.

And here's another interesting article by Paco Kelly that I'm sure GS is familiar with, and most of the more experienced casters here, on what goes wrong when they don't fall like we expect them to:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/why.htm

IMO, a balance between all the applicable factors seems to produce very good results, if bullet placement is good, while getting any of the parameters much out of the ordinary seems to create unnecessary problems. But the search and mystery continues.

[MBTcustom]

Nicely written article, but it sounds like Mr. Kelly has a lot of experience with super hard cast bullets in the 35. I respectfully disagree with his assessment of their killing power.
Mr. Kelly could have HPed his bullets and come to a completely different conclusion, but he might also have used soft cast bullets and enjoyed very different results as I have succinctly demonstrated here on the forum.
Not all cast bullets are created equal.

[kens]

There is NO pub in town, that has enough beer, for the bartender to hear ALL the stories, to get to the end of this thread………….
This is a topic that could go on forever,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Blackwater]

Yeah, you're right. But GS's posts have made it one of the best discussions of the subject I've ever seen, and I've been reading this stuff for over 50 years, and read stuff back to 1946, and that's what has sustained interest in the subject, along with GS's excellent results and research. And you're probably right that we'll never see the end of the subject, but what's life without a challenge, and occasionally, the "impossible dream?"

[MBTcustom]

Some wisdom from my father: "Do what you can then let the rough edge drag."


There is no way to be definitive on this subject, but an honest discussion between proficient and experienced shooters can be a very effective sounding board.

[snuffy]

It also acts like a set of blender blades slicing everything in it's path as it rotates (remember it is spinning pretty fast when it hits?) so the physical damage to the target is going to be greater. Seeing a commercial for Barnes Bullets shows the rotary slicing effect of these bullets.

A bullet/boolit does not "spin into a target" like blender blades. It can only rotate as fast as the twist rate of the barrel. Like a 1-10 twist 30-06, the bullet will only make one complete revolution in 10 inches. Jagged HP petals only cut more tissue than a non-expanding bullet of smaller diameter would.

I have several Cramer type MP molds that cast HP's as quickly as a solid boolit. The rejection rate may be a bit higher, but if the alloy temp is right AND the mold temp is also right, it will work well. Important to cast fast to not let the pins get too cold, that will greatly add to rejects if the pins are too cool.

As for shock killing, I once took a shot at two does that were down in a valley @ 250 yards. My .280 was loaded with Speer hot core 145-BTSP @ about 2800 fps. The bigger doe was shot with a steady hold off the top of an oak tree stump. I aimed at the top third of the chest area, but call it buck fever or just being in a bit of a hurry, I forgot that the sight-in was set at 350 yards, AND I was shooting down hill. At the shot the deer dropped straight down, never even twitched. My immediate thought was that was quick even for the trusty ol' .280. THEN I remembered, the next shot at the smaller deer, I purposely aimed much lower. He,(nubbin buck), went down and kicked a bit. Pretty sure it was mother and son.

Upon skinning the big doe, that 280 bullet never touched the spine, but was only about one inch into the body ABOVE THE SPINE! There was obvious shock damage in the form of darker flesh , that extended into and below the spine. Another thing, that doe was very much still alive when my dad and I got to them. She was completely paralyzed. Dad said to stick her with my hunting knife,(solar plexus), to bleed her out, which I did.

The nubbin was just about a perfect center shot in the lungs. That hot core Speer did an awesome job of expanding in both applications.

[OnHoPr]

A bullet/boolit does not "spin into a target" like blender blades. It can only rotate as fast as the twist rate of the barrel. Like a 1-10 twist 30-06, the bullet will only make one complete revolution in 10 inches. Jagged HP petals only cut more tissue than a non-expanding bullet of smaller diameter would.


Interesting concepts in possible effectiveness of a boolit whether cast or j's. Take for ecksample the
06 with 150 gr boolit with mz vel of 3000 fps with a Rps of 3600. @ 100 yds the same boolit is @ 2700 fps spinning @ 3241 Rps.
With the 280 @ 3000 fps the Rps is 3891 and at 100 yds going 2800 fps has a Rps of 3631. Rps = revolutions per second

Even though the boolit moves through the 9.25" of 10" chest boiler room in one revolution, that is a millisecond. But now during that small travel do fragments fly off the boolit and its acksis at the Rps speeds which are faster than the actual speed of the boolit. If fragments were the size of lets say TTT's or F's down to BB's and 4's and those have a calculate energy of about average 1100 fps and various energies of under 100 ft lbs because of size of the fragments. But, could those frags be calculated @ the + 3000 fps energy ft lbs while in the deers chest? He[[, I don't, just contemplations & theories when sitting in the blind about the 4th day waiting for venison to show up. Math may be off a touch, after HS I was taught on how to use a chainsaw file.

[Harter66]

A new consideration. Centrifugal sub projectile whip velocities.

But I thought the idea was to keep it in 1 piece and swell a 30 cal projectile up to a 1/3 oz 12 ga ball while shoving it all the way through a blue whale from sieve to stern.

Of course I jest . But not really.

I doubt very much the there was any need for an expansion enhancement before about 189? The big fat 1-10/16/20/30 etc bullets that may have tripled in size becoming a disc then rolling up on itself again . I don't think I've ever been cut or slivered with lead . I have had a rip or 2. I've read countless threads ,tin holds things together without a significant hardening effect. Meanwhile higher velocities need tougher and as a by product harder boolits to manage the accompanying higher pressures while keeping accuracy. None of which matters on paper . When I toyed with HP in a 30 cal hardening was needed to keep its form which was a fools errond on that bullet . As predicted the nose failed and the 200 gr spire point was reduced to 150 gr wad cutter. 30 cal is kind of a small wad cutter ,project abandoned. When I was able to walk the razors edge keeping accuracy and expansion while meeting the state energy requirements ,I had consistent expansion from 310 to 700 and kept 192 to 195 gr . Unfortunately it wouldn't go the last 50 fps and keep the weight consistently. The marginally legal load was used on a small antlerless mulie at 80 yd . Plus 50 gr minus 800 fps it's target performance was eyeball identical to 150 yd wounds of a now discontinued SPBT Hornady.

I think that most likely high twist rates aggrevate weight retention ,keeping in mind that rev speed doesn't drop at the same rate as velocity. A 1-10 twist @ 2200 is likely to be more like 1-6 with an impact velocity of 1100 fps ,not an unrealistic 200yd speed . Applied to a 7.62 x39 or 54 That could easily reach 1-4.5. See u tube for glock bullet ice spin or a similar search.

I think in the case at hand we have enough alloy and hardness management shape choices to make the use of the HP moot unless the massive bullet splatter or deliberate stop is wanted .
I think to compare the HP as a dumdum 38 HBWC or .128 Penta 45 devastator to a 35-225 HP from a 35 Whelen or 45-405 in a 458 Lott would be a little extreme.
In the case of GS quest a small shallow HP might allow a boolit to "change shape" by deliberately blowing off the pointy nose to a WC like form .

Shock is no matter how we look at it the displacement of the bullets energy into the target. That effect changes probably much like the bullets own conical wake . (For straight lines here) a spire point or even a Spitzer will have a comparitively narrow wave . A FP will have a wider more and more aggressive wave . The narrow wave pushing things aside as opposed to them being pushed ahead of the bullet . Id liken it to stabbing 2 grapes 1 with a sharpened pencil an 1 new . The HP gives the opportunity to have a faster or higher BC boolit and delivers the blunted effect ,presuming that it opens and or shears away as planned.
I once shot 4x4 blocks with 357 158 gr plated swc that passed through with little more a dime divot on the exit without knocking over the blocks . An 85 gr GD for a 380 launched a 38 special speeds had no exit at all but tumbled the blocks end for end . My conclusion is that the swc took its 300 ftlb ball and left behind its laces and a hole where the obviously over driven GDHP put every ftoz into the block because it stopped inside. The more of the shock energy left inside the target the better but at the same time spreading it out from the head to hams may not kill in a week let alone now.
Now we have to look at how that new pencil after impact spreads the shock/displaced energy around . We want that to happen in a way that ruptures tissue and gells blood . The best way is all at once inside the ribs . Like when the 1600 fps 50 cal RB opens up to an inch wide cherrio and folds over again . If the displacement happens outside the ribs you have broken ribs an exposed meat ,if it happens to late you have to wait until the bleeding stops and hope 5 of 6-8 quarts got out .

I have a tale of 3 hogs 1 day,all hit in the ribs all through and through and all with the same load . The 165# hog went 200yd, in just above the shoulder blade and behind out under it and barely behind 17 yd. The 145# hog went 5 steps and slumped on the exit side ,mid line of the ribs straight through from the rear of the shoulder to the front of the other 47 yd. The 135# hog was shot at bayonet range in high on the right shoulder cutting left ham going out ,it collapsed in it tracks.
The big 1 was all juiced up and had been shot at twice and was on the run when shot the other 2 were grazing along slightly distracted. A 380 dia nose swc at 1100 fps from a 45 Colts carb was impressive over all . I saw a 150# hog hit cheek into chest twice go 300 yd appearing uninjured from a 300 WSM at 50 yd dropped dead with a 30-30 to the neck . Based on this a 500 ftlb swc was much more effective than an 2000 ftlb bonded SPBT ,but it's what it is ,which was to fast at impact on too hard a target ,wallow mud and all.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I'm convinced that for hunting you don't need a hollow point bullet, but for a short barreled .38spl with bullets going in the 700-800fps range, how can you get a non-hollow point bullet to expand?

[Harter66]

1-20 would do.

[MBTcustom]

I'm convinced that for hunting you don't need a hollow point bullet, but for a short barreled .38spl with bullets going in the 700-800fps range, how can you get a non-hollow point bullet to expand?

Cast your bullets out of pure lead? I'm not kidding. Don't knock it till you try it.
If you're not happy with the accuracy, or if that leads your barrel for some reason, try adding a few wheel weights to the pot or slide in a 12" length of solder.
A bullet needs very little encouragement to shoot well at the speeds you are talking about.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Cast your bullets out of pure lead? I'm not kidding. Don't knock it till you try it.
If you're not happy with the accuracy, or if that leads your barrel for some reason, try adding a few wheel weights to the pot or slide in a 12" length of solder.
A bullet needs very little encouragement to shoot well at the speeds you are talking about.

I've actually done just that. I used the Lee 358 gas check mould. No leading and it was very accurate. I also did the same with Lee's wadcutter mould. I find pure lead to be the most accurate. I've used both pan lube and PC.

What I haven't had the opportunity to do is shoot them into anything other than the backstop at the range. They don't permit me to shoot water jugs or anything to test expansion.

[MBTcustom]

I've actually done just that. I used the Lee 358 gas check mould. No leading and it was very accurate. I also did the same with Lee's wadcutter mould. I find pure lead to be the most accurate. I've used both pan lube and PC.

What I haven't had the opportunity to do is shoot them into anything other than the backstop at the range. They don't permit me to shoot water jugs or anything to test expansion.

Trust me, it doesn't get any better than that. You're launching metallic silly putty.
There is no way on Gods green earth you can wrap a jacket around that and get better expansion/weight retention.

[doc1876]

9 pages!!?

The .45jhp that went through my leg did not expand at all (yes happy about it) so if I need an expanding boolit of any kind, I think it will be soft lead.

[MBTcustom]

9 pages!!?

The .45jhp that went through my leg did not expand at all (yes happy about it) so if I need an expanding boolit of any kind, I think it will be soft lead.

Could I try my soft lead bullets out on the other leg for a true "side by side" comparison? LOL!

[kens]

I think a word not mentioned is 'malleable', A hunting alloy should be malleable for it to mushroom/expand as we all want.
Antimony is not a malleable alloy, it is brittle. Tin and pure soft lead are good.
I read of guys hunting with linotype boolits, but lino is high in antimony, as are COWW. I have noticed COWW boolits are brittle if smashed in a vise, and expect them to be same in hunting expansion.
For a small caliber .30 and under, I vote for a cup or shallow HP.
For 35cal and up little HP is needed.
In all cases you must have a malleable alloy.
Soft lead will mushroom at muzzle loader velocity, so .38 special will mushroom also.

[doc1876]

could i try my soft lead bullets out on the other leg for a true "side by side" comparison? Lol!

​no!!!!

[lksmith]

One other thing I've thought about in this quest for trying to understand just what constitutes "killing power" in our guns, is probably well illustrated by a friend's experience in losing what he says is the biggest deer and rack he's ever seen, and he's seen and shot a LOT of deer. He once hunted a stretch of woods where a railroad track ran through a big patch of very good deer habitat. It ran for about a mile as straight as an arrow through that area, and my buddy had a very accurate .264 Win. that would literally shoot cloverleafs for 3 shots at 100. He had a Harris bipod on the front before they were popular, and used a folding chair for his seat, and as a prop for his rear hand/stock. He'd modified it so the legs were just the right height for that setup and location where he always put his chair, and had a near benchrest setup. He's also the best shot I've ever known. He used the 100 gr. PSP's and a max. load of H4831, and we didn't have a chrono back then, so don't know the speed, but it was decidedly fast from the trajectory he got with it. He chose that bullet so it'd expand at long ranges, which were typical often. And it worked extremely well. He shot quite a few deer from that old folding chair there.

Well, one day, he was sitting a stand on some power lines that had been productive, and where he'd noted some really large hoof prints, and was carrying his .264 because some really long shots were possible there. About 30 min. before dusk, in full daylight, out comes this huge buck - so big that even he, an old hand at this, did a double take. Every time he tells the story, you can see the desperation and regret in his eyes, so I know it's a true story, even though I wasn't there. He's also proven to be a very reliable reporter on these type stories many times in the past, too.

He slowly brought the .264 up, acquired the deer in the scope, and at a range of only 65 yds., pulled the trigger. BAM! The deer fell as if electrocuted! This was what he'd come to expect with that gun and bullet, and he was just sitting there in awe at this deer, and started to climb down to go to him. His buddy that day came over too, to help dress it and drag it out. They sat there admiring the deer, thinking it stone dead, when it started twitching. Then it tried to get up. With that .264, he didn't want to shoot it again lest he cut it nearly in half, which being a big venison fan, he didn't want to do. So, he just sat there expecting to see it fall over any second. It was obviously dazed greatly, and this seemed at the time to be the way to go. Then, it suddenly took a big leap and was almost instantly out of sight in thich brush. My buddy knew it was no good to try that little "varmint" type bullet through all that, and his partener that day couldn't get his gun up and on quickly enough, and the deer just ran off into the woods. They tracked it for nearly half a mile, and then, when the blood stopped, they lost it in all the tracks there, and kept looking and looking until long after dark with flashlights, until the batteries gave out, and all without success. They came back the next day and searched and searched for hours, still without success. The deer was lost.

What he and I both concur had to be the reason was that at that distance, the bullet had just gone to pieces on the surface, and failed to penetrate. Hydrostatic shock, or whatever anyone wants to call it, had knocked it down and dazed it very handily, but lack of penetration let it get away, probably to die a gruesome death.

This tragic tale (it still affects him emotionally today) illustrates the necessity of at least sufficient penetration for any use in killing an animal cleanly, AND that there really IS something to your "shock" theory, at least when it comes to most whitetails, if not larger game. The .300 Wby's results on large game like elk seems to indicate that elk, too, are not totally immune from it.

This is, I know, a rather extreme example on the other end of the spectrum from what we usually can get from cast bullets, at least conventionally, but I thought it might lend some extra credence to your concepts. FWIW?

Your post really has me intrigued, and I have a sense that there's SOMETHING in there that we're just not putting together quite in the right way and proportions to find the answer we all seek. Just thought this might provide an extreme example at that end of the whole spectrum.

that is (one reason) why I ALWAYS carry a sidearm when hunting. If it's got any life left when I get to the deer (typically bang-flops) I put a bullet right in the back of the head. I have no problem killing but I can't stand to see suffering. A pistol round is MUCH cheaper than a rifle round.

[Blackwater]

Yep. He normally does, too. Just didn't have it with him that particular day. Was a quick, after work hunt, and he just left it in the truck, I'm sure, because he was in a hurry to get up his tree. Good point, always, though.

[lksmith]

Yep. He normally does, too. Just didn't have it with him that particular day. Was a quick, after work hunt, and he just left it in the truck, I'm sure, because he was in a hurry to get up his tree. Good point, always, though.
After I had a buck charge me when my dad and I were trying to move a stand in october, I never go in the woods without a side arm (unless I have my monster-chete), Not to mention the free range organic bacon we have running around and other nasties one may run into whilst out in the woods. I have a pistol that stays in each vehicle so I am never without.

[Elkins45]

I'm late to this thread, so my apologies if someone has already made this point.

I know a place where I'm pretty sure a monster buck is holed up. It's in a place where it is legal to hunt, but I'm not willing to put up with all the grief I would catch if I set off a high powered rifle round there. So that means suppressed and subsonic, and since my silencer is 30 caliber that means a 30 caliber 200 grain bullet at less than 1100fps. I'm afraid such a slow skinny bullet will just poke a (small) hole straight thru and it will run forever. A hollow point might do a better job of disrupting blood vessels and giving a quick kill. At subsonic speeds I don't think blowing apart is the biggest problem I would face.

[lobowolf761]

You can always go for a spine or neck shot.

[Blackwater]

What range do you expect to get a shot at him? A friend has shot many in the head and a few in the neck. If you're wanting the rack, the neck shot would be preferable, of course, and the double shoulder shot is good, too. Is your bullet flat nosed? Will you be using near pure lead or a very soft mix? These are the circumstances that really try a man's patience, but .... well, when there's a really big one out there, and you don't want to make yourself persona nongrata, or maybe even have the land posted or get into a legal or political battle over it, you're taking a very sane approach to it, and one that I hear of too often these days.

One friend of mine has access to some deer rich property, but the owner is afraid of "high powered rifles," so he used a .22 LR at first, taking only head shots, and ate some nice venison from that locale. Then the owner allowed as to how a .22 mag. would be OK, so they used that, and finally went to a .22 Hornet. All produced venison, and no deer got away. It's all in where you hit them, and shooting within your gun's capabilities. You should do fine with a subsonic .30. Just keep it within the gun and load's accuracy capabilities, and you'll eat venison too, and maybe have a nice braggin' rack to look at on those rainy days, so you can do the hunt all over again in your mind. Deer are really easy to kill IF you place the bullet where it'll be most effective. Remember, an awful lot of those old African hunters HAD nothing but FMJ's, but they were excellent shots, and knew their quarry's anatomy, and just placed their shots where they'd do the most good. Good trackers occasionally helped, but they never went hungry. A far cry from our sport hunting, to be sure, but they made it work for them, and you should too.

[mongoose33]

You may not feel this is relevant to shooting HPs but I bought a NOE mold partly because I wanted to learn about casting HPs, and partly because I wanted a way to powder-coat boolets without them sliding around a tray.

So I made up a PC tray using 3/4" screws and the end cap from ductwork, which is just about right for my toaster oven. The HP boolets sit on the screws and don't fall off, don't slide off, they allow me to coat the entire boolet except the cavity, and they work very well in my guns.

Here's what that looks like:

146925

[Blackwater]

It's been a while on this thread, but I can't help but think about it every time I let my mind idle a bit. After thinking on the matter, the one thing I've consistently noticed on whitetails, which is the only "big game" I am probably really qualified to comment on with any authority, the only real consistency has been that with heart/lung shots, there's always been a very clear and consistent tendency for bullets that expand rapidly to produce more "shock" to the nervous system and organs than there has been with more "controlled expansion" bullets, whether jacketed or cast, and it's been marked and consistent for a lot of years now.

A valued shooting buddy has now gone to the lighter wt. Barnes TSX and TTSX's for deer, but he's driving them at about 3300 fps. or more. He and his son in law have been having great success with them. They always penetrate and always drop the deer in their tracks, or maybe within a very few feet from the bullet's impact. In those cases, I think it's the shock wave from the very high velocities that is giving them their results, plus the fact that Barnes has now seemingly gotten the solid copper bullet design right for best accuracy and on-game reaults. That hasn't always been true of them, and their early days were fraught with many instances of less than good on game performance, though penetration was always good. With more and more people shooting less and less well due to time constraints and lack of available places to shoot (often due to fear of liabilities), that's no surprise. People can't do what they don't have a chance to do. That's a given.

So it's always proven that a bullet that'll open up quickly kills whitetails more quickly, and your soft cast should be opening up plenty quick enough to transfer tremendous shock, and if not driven TOO fast (harder to do with soft alloys than some "harder" ones that may tend to shatter and break up more readily) they should give the exact results you're getting - good penetration AND expansion - literally the best of all possible worlds.

Now that I've thought about it, it really seems to be a no-brainer after all! Strange things DO happen with bullets and game, though, so we sometimes tend to "overthink" things at times, and though most don't expect softer alloys to perform as you've found, that doesn't mean they can't or won't. it just means that you were smart enough to "find out," and give yourself the opportunity to be surprised. Nothin' works better than that, in this, or many other aspects of life. Ya' done good, pal! REAL good! And thanks for this thread.

Maybe it won't "plague" me like it has since you posted it. It's part of an age-old question that's been bandied about every hunting camp since we were hunting with obsidian spears and arrows, probably, and it's doubtful that we'll ever figure it ALL out, but I'm satisfied, at least for now. Now watch somebody come up and put me right back on that same age-old trail all over again! :? :veryconfu