Help with muzzleloader ID

[labradigger1]

Looking for some insight for a muzzleloader I took in partial trade yesterday.
Most parts seem to me to be mismatched. Barrel length is 35-9/16".
Bore measures 3/8" across the hexagonal bore using a common tape measure.
Lock has incorrect Phillips head machine screw.
Stock has been repaired at lower end of but plate.
No markings on barrel except S-B and the numbers scribed into barrel flat.
Lock does not seem to be original as the mortise is sloppy.
Lock and double set triggers functions fine but sure could use some polishing and oil.

[oldracer]

Have you pulled the barrel off? On the 3 Hawken rifles I got from Doug Knoell there are no markings on the barrels of 2 of the guns but in the barrel channel in very small black letters is his name and date, I.E. D. Knoell 1983. Looks like it might be home made or from a parts supplier such as Pecatonica River. I'd suggest cleaning it up and looking inside the bore to make sure all is well and shoot it........If you want you can send it out to me for testing?

[labradigger1]

More pics

[pietro]

.

The bore shape, and the deep rust/patina, IMO places that .38 cal rifle as being made before/during/after the Civil War (say, 1860 to 1870).

The "hex" bore should use a Whitworth hexagonal bullet (patented in 1854 by Sir Jos.Whitworth, of G.B.) - Whitworth-type barrels with the hexagonal rifled bore were considered almost twice as accurate as other type bore riflings, and the US imported many Whitworths fitted with telescopic sights for use by Sharpshooters during the Civil War.

Not a whole lot were made for the civilian market, as (at the time) there was a prejudice against the hex bore - so I would WAG that your rifle was "made" by a rural gunsmith of the day, with an ordered/bought lock & barrel.

At that time, a proper bullet mould would have been supplied with the rifle, when the 1st owner took delivery.


.

[Ken in Iowa]

It looks like this barrel has 7 grooves.

[mooman76]

You might try over at the muzzleloadingforum.com. There are some guys there that really know their stuff.

[mooman76]

You might try over at the muzzleloadingforum.com. There are some guys there that really know their stuff. It might not have actual hexagonal rifling. Allot of the older pieces just cam out looking that way, it was the way they did their rifling back then.

[labradigger1]

After looking a little closer at the muzzle it does appear to be a heptagonal (7sided) bore.
Good eye ken in Iowa.

[koger]

Lots of the old originals bores looked squared off on the lands, corners, and they were. To me, that looks like a Tennessee Bean rifle, named after several generations that made them, or a Ohio Vincent rifle, late half stocks, but their butt stocks and wrist were usually slimmer. The pewter nose cap is another Bean characteristic.

[bubba.50]

whatever it is, it's a neat lookin' old gun.

[Omnivore]

It is a neat lookin' old gun. From the apparent extreme corrosion on the barrel near the drum, it does look old, too, and used a lot back at a time when caps were corrosive. Then again it isn't impossible to reproduce such things. I can't see any sights in the photos. Those at Track of the Wolf often run accross similar rifles. You might ask them too.

How'd you come accross it?

[labradigger1]

Pics of the sights.
Front is VERY VERY small, low and thin. I have 20/20 vision and barely can see it.
Rear looks like a Pennsylvania style to me.
A coworker wanted my xdm9. he inherited the muzzleloader and threw it in for boot.

[koger]

The rear sight and front sight both, look like the Tennessee/Southern Mtn. type rifle sights made in my area, here on the KY/Tenn. border. A favorite trick was to use the bottom of a wore out pony horse shoe as a rear sight, cut it off, cut a notch in the upturned part. They did not waste anything back then!

[koger]

I Just pulled up the pic of the muzzle, and enlarged it. If you look close, in the corners of the bore, you can see rounded radius's, which is the groove of the rifling. I have seen several of these in southern rifles over my lifetime. The smiths would lap weld the iron barrel, around a twisted bar, with 4-6 sides. They would then have a piece of the same bar, with a cutter inlaid, usually made from a piece of old file, that had a pin holding it in at the front, and shimmed under it at back, in a groove in the piece of rod, and attached to a rod with a T handle. The cutter in the piece of bar, would be pulled thru, cutting a groove in the corner, lubed with hog lard or bear grease. After 2-3 pulls, cutter would quit, they would pull it out, clean off chips, re lube and rotate to the next groove, repeat. After they had cut each groove, they would shim the cutter with paper shims, and start over at the first groove. I have helped rifle a barrel like this once, by hand, in 3 hours, and it was our first time, learning and talking as we went.

[skeettx]

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/firearms/longarms/5236

http://www.relicman.com/weapons/zArchiveWeaponMusketModel1861Trenton.htm (http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/firearms/longarms/5236)

[labradigger1]

Good links. I have seen several Trenton locks but they all have the U.S. And Eagles on them.
This one does not, just Trenton and engraving.




http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/firearms/longarms/5236





http://www.relicman.com/weapons/zArchiveWeaponMusketModel1861Trenton.htm (http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/firearms/longarms/5236)