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Indiana shooter
07-07-2015, 09:10 PM
I went to the range this morning to test the terminal performance of my new NOE 44 mag mold. I was testing a 255 gr cp boolit fired into wet pack. I cut some mag shot, that said it was 3% antimony, with an equal amount of roofing lead plus 3% silver barring tin. My impact velocities were 1350 fps and 1000 fps, or close enough, recorded with a chrono. My results were disappointing. The boolits broke up within a few inches leaving just the shank of the boolit to penetrate. I didn't have any leading so I guess my next move is to add more soft lead with my next batch.

On the plus side the boolits shot great as I was able to keep under a 3 in group at 50 yards, that's good for me with irons.

bhn22
07-07-2015, 10:19 PM
#6 or #9 magnum shot is listed at 4% antimony, and #7 or 8.5 is listed at 6% antimony. I'd try it with just the roofing tin and the silver bearing tin (lead free solder?). Do you have the alloy calculator bookmarked?

Indiana shooter
07-07-2015, 11:33 PM
BHN22, The shot was #9 shot. I can't remember what the name brand is but like I said it states that it's 3% antimony, sooo...I don't know. That alloy, whatever it actually comes out to be, is my standby. It seems to shoot well in my gun without leading, just figured it was as good as place as any to start.

Yes the silver barring tin is lead free solder. I meant to get some with copper in it but picked up the wrong pack.

I did try a dozen boolits that were 20-1 mix with the roofing lead but they leaded the #*@$ out of my barrels throat. (Bullets sized at .432, barrel slugs at .4295) expansion was good there so I think I need to find something in the middle.

I can't seem to be able to view the calculator when I download it, I am very computer illiterate to say the least.

Djones
07-07-2015, 11:47 PM
What part of the state are you located? BHN of 22 seems hard.

like you said, Might want to try something softer if the bullet was breaking up. You are on your way fellow Hoosier.

David Jones

Grump
07-07-2015, 11:56 PM
What part of the state are you located? BHN of 22 seems hard.

like you said, Might want to try something softer if the bullet was breaking up. You are on your way fellow Hoosier.

David Jones

Ummmm, BHN22 was the username to whom our friend was replying...

We all seem to be in agreement that the alloy is a bit too hard.

But on the other hand, I seem to remember that wet soaked newsprint (assuming that's what you mean by "wet pack") is MUCH harder on boolits than game animules.

Or...
Spend $15 on a big cheap roast and put a piece of leather in front of it, then test... Put a Fackler box behind it to catch the slowed-down boolit... Or just shoot into a Fackler box and factor in water penetration is 1.6 times penetration in Jello/tissue.

Mk42gunner
07-08-2015, 12:11 AM
Or...

Go down to the mold section and look at the sticky for BruceB's soft point casting thread, if you really want expansion.

Robert

Indiana shooter
07-08-2015, 12:13 AM
Djones, BHN22 was in reply to a previous post not my boolits BHN. If I had to guess I'd say I'm somewhere around a BHN of 13 or so, but that's just an uneducated guess.

Sense I joined here I have moved to south Louisville, but when I lived in IN I was just outside Clarksville in southern IN. I was offered a financial proposition that I couldn't pass up. Hopefully I can sell it soon and move back to Hoosierville before to long. KY laws regarding deer hunting sucks around here, to say the least. There's no place within an hours drive that you can gun hunt unless you either have private property, what to pay a private land owner for hunting rights, or get drawn for a 2 day quota hunt. There is, however, plenty of public land to hunt small game and bow hunt though.

borg
07-08-2015, 02:19 AM
Ummmm, BHN22 was the username to whom our friend was replying...

We all seem to be in agreement that the alloy is a bit too hard.

But on the other hand, I seem to remember that wet soaked newsprint (assuming that's what you mean by "wet pack") is MUCH harder on boolits than game animules.

Or...
Spend $15 on a big cheap roast and put a piece of leather in front of it, then test... Put a Fackler box behind it to catch the slowed-down boolit... Or just shoot into a Fackler box and factor in water penetration is 1.6 times penetration in Jello/tissue.
Boy, if that's true.
Yesterday went to the range to test some 300 blk boolits in a bucket full of catalogs that had been water soked for 3 days. The alloy was 50-50 cow and sow, first shot with 9.5 grns of 4227 went all the way through the bucket, and didn't even slow down.

Lloyd Smale
07-08-2015, 07:00 AM
my experience shows that any hp bullet with an alloy of ww or harder will usually fracture, not expand. YOur alloy is significantly harder then ww. Probably about a #2 alloy or even a bit harder then that. A good alloy for expansion and weight retention at handgun velocitys is 50/50 ww/pure and keep them between a 1000 and 1200 fps.

44man
07-08-2015, 09:30 AM
Actually, the .44 mag needs no expansion at all. I use WLN or the Lee 310, cast hard to 20, 22 BHN and never lost a deer to them. No deer has made over 30 yards.
In wet pack I get 34" of penetration.
Had one problem a few seasons back. I shot a big doe and heard her fall close. I could not find her so came back to pick up the blood trail. Darn if she didn't die next to a big fallen tree trunk. I could not see her.
I love the .44 and it needs nothing special.
Another season I had only 5 shots left of the Lee 310's. Put them in the cylinder, Shot 3 deer and had 2 shots left.

landers
07-08-2015, 10:11 AM
A few years ago I was testing alloy for a new 9mm mold I got from Eric at Hollow point Molds and found 20-1 was the best option, any % of antimony created bullets that were to brittle and completely came apart. I have had great success with plain old 20-1 in all of my hollow point molds. These are 147gr 9mm shot into gelatin using 20-1 alloy.
143987

Boolseye
07-08-2015, 10:24 AM
I just add pure to whatever I have in the pot 'til it's somewhere around 50/50, usually it's a mix of range scrap and wheel weights to go with the pure. They blow up water jugs and expand in wet phone books, anything over about 850 fps.

Larry Gibson
07-08-2015, 11:06 AM
That is a very "hard" alloy and will not give very good expansion as you have discovered. While an excellent alloy with a good balance of Sn and Sb it is useful for many cast bullet applications......just that good expansion is not one of them. I use 20-1 or 16-1 lead - tin alloy (absolutely no antimony in it) for excellent expansion of my HP'd cast handgun bullets fired in handguns. I match the alloy to the velocity and HP design for each cartridge. You'll get much better expansion with such binary alloys.

Larry Gibson

44man
07-08-2015, 11:36 AM
Too much expansion with the .44 is not good. Penetration will suffer.

Blackwater
07-08-2015, 11:55 AM
In my own experiments with expansion, I found that tin was the "magic" ingredient that kept the petals attached to the shank of the bullet on impact. Tin adds much to the simple ductility of lead, and reduces its tendency to fracture and break off petals on impact and expansion, so it holds together better. Never really saw that make much difference in the field, though. The harder, antimony only alloy usually acted like a Nosler Partition and fragmented the front part off like shrapnel through the organs (kinda' hard on the recipient), while the shank penetrated deeply and flattens out the front like a full WC can do when speeded up a bit. The higher tin alloys tended to stick together much better with about 4% or better of tin in the mix. 2% helped some, but at 4% and higher, up to 6%, I got my best performance if I wanted the bullet to hold together. FWIW???

GabbyM
07-08-2015, 02:15 PM
One of the theories out there I hold to.
If you use a Sn + Sb alloy. You get a more malleable bullet if you have no free tin in the final alloy. Thus an equal amount of both or more Sb than Sn. Your listed alloy would have quite a bit of free tin.
What I'd try. Only cut your 3% antimony shot by a third to achieve 2% Sb. Then add just short of 2% tin. You also need to cook the shot well and flux good to be sure and get all the graphite skimmed off.

I like a litter copper in my alloy. Not familiar with effects of silver.
You will get useful expansion from a flat nose cast bullet when. Impact velocity reaches or exceeds BHN X 100. Thus a BHN 12 cast bullet expands above 1,200 fps.

Indiana shooter
07-08-2015, 09:19 PM
44 man, I already have the lee 310 mold and plan to use that boolit this fall. I just like to have other options available if I choose to use them. I also have a 4 3/8" old model vaquero that I carry as a backup to my rifle. It has fixed sight and there's no way I can hit anything with the 310, that boolit shoots 20" high at 20 yards. I'm pretty good with KY windage but that's a bit excessive. Plus that heavy of a boolit in that gun is just a bear to handle.

Lloyd Smale
07-09-2015, 07:55 AM
I absolutely agree with this. Ive killed deer bear and pigs and even buffalo with hp cast and with hard cast and I don't think ive ever really shot something with a hp and thought to myself "boy that died fast" If anything the only failures of cast bullets ive seen is hps on buffalo. DONT DO IT penetration is dismal. There fine on deer sized game but really no advantage over a good lfn wfn or swc. To me there just something to play with. In all reality a hardcast bullet penetrates deeper and allways gives an exit wound. Those two quality's outweigh any advantage expansion has.
Actually, the .44 mag needs no expansion at all. I use WLN or the Lee 310, cast hard to 20, 22 BHN and never lost a deer to them. No deer has made over 30 yards.
In wet pack I get 34" of penetration.
Had one problem a few seasons back. I shot a big doe and heard her fall close. I could not find her so came back to pick up the blood trail. Darn if she didn't die next to a big fallen tree trunk. I could not see her.
I love the .44 and it needs nothing special.
Another season I had only 5 shots left of the Lee 310's. Put them in the cylinder, Shot 3 deer and had 2 shots left.

Elkins45
07-09-2015, 08:18 AM
KY laws regarding deer hunting sucks around here, to say the least. There's no place within an hours drive that you can gun hunt unless you either have private property, what to pay a private land owner for hunting rights, or get drawn for a 2 day quota hunt. There is, however, plenty of public land to hunt small game and bow hunt though.

This statement perplexes me, especially as compared to Indiana. At least here we let you use bottlenecked rifle cartridges if you want. I think your problem is location, not law.

Bigslug
07-09-2015, 09:21 AM
I'm with 44 and Lloyd - expansion is a demon not worth chasing.

I'm finding some validity to the theory that, assuming proper fit, harder can and often will shoot more accurately in more powerful guns, but to expand, you have to soften them up. The other problem is that you can get your bullets performing perfectly in your test media at 10 yards, but will they still expand at 100 or 200 when they've slowed down some?

Maybe you get them performing in a test where you set your media at distance. Will they blow apart at shorter distances, and if so, will they penetrate enough to do the job?

A sturdy flat nose will behave much more consistently across all the ranges your bullet might be expected to strike. Straight wheel weight, maybe with some extra tin would be my choice, and I would be expecting to see a bullet that - except for the rifling marks - could almost be loaded and fired again. Your velocities are such where it would be worth experimenting to see if the gun groups better with them air-cooled, or hardened up with a water drop. The end result will be a bullet that will kill deer quite dead, without the hair-tearing madness of endless alloy tweaking.

144106
Left is water quenched wheelweight, right is 20-1. Both 130 grain LBT's shot into a row of milk jugs with an impact speed of about 1200 fps out of a hybrid .310 / .32-20 Martini Cadet. It took nine gallons to stop the hard bullet, and only three for the soft one. The mold is custom cut for the chamber - the softer bullet does not group nearly as well, and certainly not when I started upping the velocity towards 1500fps. I have two deer tags this year - provided I get the pressure off early with the .30-06, I'll be trying to fill tag#2 with the bullet on the left.

Indiana shooter
07-09-2015, 10:03 AM
This statement perplexes me, especially as compared to Indiana. At least here we let you use bottlenecked rifle cartridges if you want. I think your problem is location, not law.

That is why I said AROUND HERE. I am aware that KY has plenty of public land to hunt on. MY issue is that AROUND MY LOCATION none of the public land is open for the state wide gun season. Unless you want to drive at least an hour and a half to a place to gun hunt your only option is to enter a draw hunt. Not to mention that I usually take 2 or 3 does during early archery season so that cancels out the closest public land that I can gun hunt on.

Most of the land owners I talk with are more than happy to tell me about all the crops they lost last year due to the deer, then they offer to allow me to hunt their land for $500-$1000 a year.

Being able to use a bottle necked cartridge doesn't matter much to me. When I lived in IN I exclusively used my muzzleloader and .44 handgun. I mainly hunt woods so a 100 yard shot is long for me but I have taken deer out to almost 240 yards with my smokepole.

44man
07-09-2015, 11:07 AM
What is really important is energy transfer where needed, nothing to do with ME either, I hate that term.
The quickest killing deer gun I own is the .475 BFR, almost every deer will be belly up out of recoil with hard cast but the .500 JRH was sad with deer going 100 to 120 yards with no blood trails. I just softened half the nose and turned it around to be a drop dead gun. NO HP. Amazing that there is no meat loss either.
Hard cast in the .44 will rarely drop deer unless the CNS is hit but even behind the shoulder hits will have the deer drop fast. It just plain works. Do NOT do anything to stop penetration.
I think shooting water jugs is better then soaked paper. You want at least 2 jugs blown sky high and the boolit to penetrate more then you can stack up.
The .475 will blow 4 to the moon, split more and exit at least 17 gallon jugs. It really shows up with deer. That front explosion is where it is. If you blow one and catch a bullet quick, give it up.144112 This is the .475 and jugs were blown all over, picked up to put in place. Number five and six were split. Boolit exited the last jug.

Larry Gibson
07-09-2015, 11:52 AM
" It took nine gallons to stop the hard bullet, and only three for the soft one."

If I might ask; just how much "penetration" does one need for a deer? How many deer require 9 water jugs worth of penetration? How many require 3 jugs of penetration? I've shot a lot of deer (blacktail, whitetail and mule deer) and all but the biggest old monster bucks don't come close to 3 jugs wide. Also 3 jugs wide of penetration through water will reach well past the vitals of any deer on any side quartering or raking shot. Might not with a Texas heart shot but some of us don't take that shot regardless of the bullet used.

There is a current running thread (the OP's 2nd or 3rd) on pig killing with the Lyman Devastator HP with COWWs. Penetration was not an issue at ally. Look at the picture bigslug posted. Which one of those bullets will actually do the most damage (that equates to quicker killing) in the reality of the short amount of penetration required to kill a deer? The answer is somewhat obvious. I've shot lot's of deer over the years with HP'd cast bullets of various cartridge and velocity. I've recovered very few bullets as most all where through and through. Penetration is not a problem.

Larry Gibson

fredj338
07-09-2015, 03:09 PM
Agree with landers, antimony is not your friend when it comes to LHP. Lead & tin, nothing else, & not that much tin. 20-1 for higher vel, 25-1 for vel 1000fps & less. Of course HP design has a lot to do with it. Only hunted with the 44, but that bullet won't stay inside a deer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-272.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/9mm-136-1200.jpg.html)

44man
07-10-2015, 08:53 AM
Three jugs is just fine Larry and actually two would be enough.
penetration as long as you make another hole out.
I know my .475 is crazy but it just happens to maybe pass through an elephant!
The saddest results was when I first started with the .44, used the 240 XTP's because of the tremendous accuracy but never found any blood on the ground so I was lucky by seeing them fall, each at over 60 yards. It gets real thick around here and usually one jump puts deer out of sight.
I recovered every XTP against the rib cage. Wonderful mushrooms.
I back track every deer to POI and I do not like to not find blood.
I bought LBT 320 gr WLN boolits and the turn around was amazing, cut a deers run more then half and it looked like I used a huge spray gun to paint the woods. Even if one vanishes from sight, I hear them fall.
I am somewhere at 174 kills with revolvers, not exact of course, Actually have more during the time but there were archery deer and ML plus some with rifles tossed in.
Now a fact I can't get away from, my friend uses his .270 and his deer go a long way, good blood trails but after he shoots, I need to track him and the deer way up in the woods. The first thing I ask him "how did that deer go so far?" Then last season he had a funny angle and lost a shoulder and a whole back strap. I have long since sold my .280, made deer bloodshot end to end.
I am a confirmed big bore revolver hunter and I don't care if they find my boolits in China.
Last season I dropped 4 in their tracks and no. 5 made 20 yards. No CNS hits either. The big 8 point was walking fast at 50-60 yards through the trees, I got an opening, got a lead and he dropped.
I would not look for large mushrooms if a boolit stops, keep it where you get two holes.

Bigslug
07-14-2015, 10:16 PM
" It took nine gallons to stop the hard bullet, and only three for the soft one."

If I might ask; just how much "penetration" does one need for a deer? How many deer require 9 water jugs worth of penetration?

What I should have added was that the first three jugs in the long stack had pretty serious disruption from just the meplat alone, while the remaining six were pretty neatly drilled. I consider the first three serious deer busting and the last simply gravy.

The philosophy I've been coming to of late is ACCURACY FIRST, and yes, individual mileage will vary greatly, but soft lead combined with hard shooting charges can be a challenge. The reason I lean to the non- or barely-expanding, flat nosed solid is that it's going to behave about the same regardless of speed - faster will give a bigger "bow wave" and might flatten a little more, but I can pretty much count on that I'm going to get a through-and-through, in a straight line, at any distance to be considered reasonable, and wound channel will be a bit wider than the slug - the degree depending on impact speed. I think of it more like an archery broadhead that's tearing rather than cutting - a .75" to 1.5" diameter bleed hole through something important will suffice.

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with an expanding slug that exits, but I simply don't want to deal with the added variable of making a bullet expand at yardages unknown when I have to ALSO solve the problem of making it group decently too. I keep more of the hair I have on my head if I work within the confines of "Accurate? Yes. Makes Bambi leak rapidly from two openings? Yes. Expands? Don't really care." Less to think about, and still does the job.

44man
07-15-2015, 10:10 AM
I have two revolvers I have trouble with if I use full hard water dropped. the BFR 45-70 and the .500 JRH. One is too fast, the other too heavy. I solved the .500 by casting just a little softer nose, just half of it so I need to do the same to the 45-70.
Now the .44 has needed nothing and the .475 is the hammer with hard cast. Never seen anything like it. Now the JRH does the same and is going to be my standby. I hit better with it because it does not have the barrel rise or torque of the .475. The .475 needs held very tight. I suppose I also hold the JRH tight but it seems easier. Shooting from bags, the .475 twists my wrist more.
Now a friend had trouble on two deer with the .44 LBT 320 gr. He hit behind the shoulders and blew the guts into mush. He nicked bone and the boolit turned 90° to be found in the hams. I checked hardness and the LBT's are softer then mine. The noses were deformed. He now want's my 330 gr boolits. Copy of a WLN. I just missed weight a little. But the Lee 310 is one of the best.
I would reduce expansion with the .44 to just a little upset but no more. A full HP can cost you an animal. The lighter and faster your boolit, the worse it will be.
Let us discuss long range with the .44. It is important. Deer shot at 100 or more will go farther with hard boolits. Loss of energy and velocity. Yet I find them. So a little upset at 100 would be a good thing. Just do not get carried away.
My problem is accuracy so I like hard boolit and will never soften the whole thing. A softer nose is the best I found but some with too soft and a HP cost piles of meat.
If you think a hard, 22 BHN boolit from a .44 is bad, look at this.144625144626 This is a heart shot with a 22 BHN boolit from the .475.
Adjust for the velocity, boolit weight and caliber. Cast is great, just don't look for the wrong thing.

Larry Gibson
07-15-2015, 10:28 AM
Here's what we need to understand in a .44 Magnum for example; if we take a SWC, or WFN of sufficient weight (250 - 300 gr) and cast it of a malleable alloy that doesn't readily fracture but expands and put a correctly designed HP on the nose that is not overly deep (as in a lot of original Lyman HPs and others of old) 3 terminal performance aspects can happen when we shoot a game animal such as a deer or pig. Before we discuss those 3 terminal aspects let's also understand there is no reason a HP'd bullet can not be as accurate as a solid bullet of the same design at the same velocity level in a 44 Magnum firearm. So in discussing the 3 terminal aspects, which is the essence of the topic, lets assume all else is the same, i.e. accuracy, shot placement and the physiological aspect of the game animal.

The 1st terminal aspect with a proper HP'd bullet is that it expands properly in the game animal retaining the expansion petals with little loss and exits. It is a proven fact that expanding bullets kill quicker and more efficiently. That's why most game laws for such game animals outlaw the use of FMJ bullets and/or non expanding bullets for hunting such game.


The 2nd aspect of the terminal performance with such a bullet is if the expansion petals break off. If that happens the bullet will have probably already reached the vital area of the game animal. The remaining 80% +/- is then basically a WC that continues on and exits. This performance is then very similar to a Nosler Partition bullets performance. Anyone doubt the efficiency of the Nosler Partition bullet in killing game?


The 3rd aspect of of a properly HP'd cast bullet is if the HP does not expand. If that happens the bullet then performs terminally just the same as with a solid cast bullet of the same weight and design. Thus if you have the bullet such as a WFN HP that doesn't expand the terminal effect is the same as the WFN w/o the HP.

Now, as I've said many, many times before; no one is saying the solid cast bullet will not kill. It does and it does it well. I have used such and wouldn't hesitate to use such again. However, a properly cast HP'd bullet of the same design will kill more efficiently, not always but enough that it is worth the effort to use for some of us. And if the HP'd bullet doesn't expand? Then you have the same efficiency as a solid bullet of the same design. Nothing lost but perhaps something gained. Simply a matter of choice. I have seen the improved terminal performance enough times on such game that I prefer to use properly cast HP'd bullets.

Larry Gibson

44man
07-15-2015, 10:33 AM
I shoot tons of deer and admit it has taken work, nothing about jugs or paper shooting. it is what I see with animals. There is no easy way.
Every single thing you do should be a learning experience. I do a necropsy on every deer and back track every one. I know what every boolit does and what to expect.
What do I want? I want to make you a better hunter with confidence and do not want to hear "PLACEMENT" junk. Those that hit the CNS with handguns every time are so low with magic keyboards. We are normal people, no magic wands.