Cast 500 grain 45/70 load questions

[beastybaconman]

I've been using a lee bullet mold to make 500 grain boolits for my 45/70, but I've been having some trouble when it comes to loading them in a case. The main problem I'm having is that the reloading manual I have has info for 500 grain jacketed bullets but not the cast ones I'm using and I think the crimp grove is lower on the jacketed ones. This means that when I use even the lowest recommended amount of powder, 44.1 grains for the IMR 3031 I'm using, I get a compressed load. I know that some smokeless loads can be compressed, so is this one supposed to be? If not then does anyone have a good load I could try for these boolits? Also if it does need to be compressed would I be able to do it with my lee hand loader or would I need to use a press? Any help would be appreciated.

[runfiverun]

42 grs is still more than a trap door level load, it would be a level 2 load [86 win/95 marlin]
your 44 gr load is a level 3 [ruger #1 and #3]
for trapdoor loads going down to 35grs would be fine.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Welcome Beasty,
First of all, I'd like to suggest you get the Lyman cast bullet handbook #4. Read the first half of the book to learn about loading boolits, as there are a few things you need to know, that are different than reloading J-words.

Now, I am no expert on 45-70 ...in fact, I just acquired a Ruger #3 and am now just starting to cast and load for it, but I can offer you a little, seeming obvious advice...

The Lyman manual I suggested, as well as Lyman standard reloading manual, has three sections of Data for 45-70 (trapdoor,levergun, and Ruger), each having different loads with different MAX pressure. Be sure to use the right data for your gun (whatever that is?). Your load sounds kinda HOT. Maybe try a different powder if a starting load is compressed ? something there seems wrong, but don't have the resources handy to double-check it for you.

A pretty good online source for cast boolit loading data is on castpics.
http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php

[NSB]

What gun are you shooting this in? So far, you've gotten some pretty good advice. What's your intended use?

[beastybaconman]

Thanks for all the replies. The gun I'm loading these for is a H&R Handi Rifle with the 22" 45/70 barrel and I plan on using it for hunting bears and the occasional red squirrel. The gun might be small but since it's a single shot I think it can handle the heavier loads. That's why I'm using the Ruger #1 data in my Hornady 9th edition loading manual. One thing I did forget about was that the problem was really when I tried using some once fired hornady lever evolution case. At first I was using winchester cases and I could fit 45 grains without compressing, but just barley. Then when I used the hornady cases I realized they were shorter so I could only fit around 35 grains. Now that I think about though, the hornady cases are probably shorter because they were intended to be used in a lever gun with lever gun loads, which like runfiverun said, is around 35 grains. So I guess that solves that problem, but I'm still wondering why my manual goes up to 53.1 grains as the absolute max and I can't even fit 46 grains without compressing it. Could it just be because my manual is for jacketed bullets and I'm using cast?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I think you are a little over gunned for squirrels! I'd drop to 40 gr boolits for those.

Randy

[NSB]

Please check with the manufacturer of your gun to see if it will take these heavy loads. A trapdoor is a single shot also and definitely will not take these loads. Don't get hurt or damage your gun without verifying your gun is safe with these loads.

[runfiverun]

I see your problem.
the brass you are using is shorter and thus has less case capacity.
even the lower loads will have higher pressure.
your 44 gr load being compressed like that is gonna act more like a 46gr or higher load.


I shoot a browning 86 and don't think I would enjoy shooting your load.
a 430 at 1600 is about all I want from my heavier rifle.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thanks for all the replies. The gun I'm loading these for is a H&R Handi Rifle with the 22" 45/70 barrel and I plan on using it for hunting bears and the occasional red squirrel. The gun might be small but since it's a single shot I think it can handle the heavier loads. That's why I'm using the Ruger #1 data in my Hornady 9th edition loading manual. One thing I did forget about was that the problem was really when I tried using some once fired hornady lever evolution case. At first I was using winchester cases and I could fit 45 grains without compressing, but just barley. Then when I used the hornady cases I realized they were shorter so I could only fit around 35 grains. Now that I think about though, the hornady cases are probably shorter because they were intended to be used in a lever gun with lever gun loads, which like runfiverun said, is around 35 grains. So I guess that solves that problem, but I'm still wondering why my manual goes up to 53.1 grains as the absolute max and I can't even fit 46 grains without compressing it. Could it just be because my manual is for jacketed bullets and I'm using cast?

While I'm guessin' you'll be fine with the Ruger loads, I'll bet if you contact H&R, they'll say 'no more than the levergun loads'. I couldn't find any mention of what MAX pressure is spec'd for the 45-70 Handi-Rifle on the H&R website, But I did find some clown on a random gun forum, who claimed he was loadin' 60Kpsi loads in it and the gun handled it fine...one of those "hold my beer and watch this" moments, I suspect :) lol

But, most of my interweb searchin' found seemingly educated guess' that were worded like this...

H&R also chambers the Handi-Rifle for .444 Marlin, on which SAAMI has a maximum pressure of 42,000 PSI. The 45-70, which looses relatively little steel in that big barrel, has a maximum SAAMI pressure rating of 28,000 PSI. Odds are you have room to move up pressure-wise.

[beastybaconman]

While I'm guessin' you'll be fine with the Ruger loads, I'll bet if you contact H&R, they'll say 'no more than the levergun loads'. I couldn't find any mention of what MAX pressure is spec'd for the 45-70 Handi-Rifle on the H&R website, But I did find some clown on a random gun forum, who claimed he was loadin' 60Kpsi loads in it and the gun handled it fine...one of those "hold my beer and watch this" moments, I suspect :) lol

But, most of my interweb searchin' found seemingly educated guess' that were worded like this...

Thanks for the info. The reason I decided to go with the ruger loads in my book is because it doesn't have any lever gun loads for 500 grain bullets. I'm not sure how much pressure my loads are generating, but I'm pretty sure it's not too extreme because I've never had a problem with extracting or anything and the cases don't show any bad pressure signs even after being loaded and fired a couple times. I'll probably just stick with the loads I've got and stay away from the shorter cases. If I do end up increasing the powder I'll just do it in small increments and keep an eye on the cases, and since it's a single shot I can just seat the bullet out a little farther so it's not compressed too bad.

[NSB]

Seating it out further can increase pressure depending how far off the lands you are.

[Toymaker]

Yep, like runfiverun said - the Hornady case is shorter so you can't get as much powder in it. I never could get good consistent groups with 3031 and someone suggested I switch to IMR SR 4759. It's been discontinued, but you can find it. I use a Hoch 500 grain bullet. This is a 5-shot group from 100 yards.

http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n519/Toymaker1944/IMR%20SR%204759%2027%20Hoch%20459500_zpsre9nafw0.j pg

Alternately I found that IMR 5744 does an outstanding job with loan and performance almost as good as 4759. This is a 10 shot group from 100 yards.
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n519/Toymaker1944/5744%2045%2070_zpsxpwuzm0q.jpg

Not rightly sure why you want a 500 grain bullet unless, due to barrel length, that what you need for stability. Again, from 100 yards I've found a 405grain bullet does very well.http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n519/Toymaker1944/4759%2045%2070%20II_zps3nqp93uk.jpg

[44MAG#1]

According to the Speer #14 manual 42 gr 3031 is a trapdoor load with their 500 gr cast bullet.
The Lee will seat no deeper or as deep as the Speer.
44 gr is no where near a Ruger #1 load.
Speer says 42 gr Is a 21000 CUP load.
Remember the H&R Handi Rifle is chambered in 500 S&W. I have one.
This is where doing ones homework is very important before embarking on an endeavor like this.

[Scharfschuetze]

The gun I'm loading these for is a H&R Handi Rifle with the 22" 45/70 barrel and I plan on using it for hunting bears and the occasional red squirrel.

As you are shooting the boolit in a single shot rifle, you really don't need to crimp the boolit/bullet to it's crimp groove and thus compress the powder with your current load. You can just seat the boolit/bullet out and not compress the load. Of course you'll have to seat it deep enough so that you can chamber the round and that will depend on the throat or lead in your Handi-Rifle. Naturally you'll want to work back up to your load due to the change in seating depth.

[Blackwater]

FWIW, I'd be VERY leery of using ANY load hotter than those listed for the leverguns (M-86 Win/MM-95 Marlins) in that break open single shot. It's not NEARLY in the class of a #1 Ruger or 1885 Browning single shot, strength-wise, and it's entirely possible that you could get into pressure trouble real fast with the break open single shots. Just not nearly the strength there, and they'll wear out in some critical places, too, just like some old double shotguns can wear if you feed them steady diets of heavy loads. Just a FWIW?

[JimP.]

here is the bullet i use in my Handi rifle 45-70, the mold is from NEI handtools and i odered it with a plainbase instead of the gascheck. i try to keep my velocity around 1500 fps. it is a very effective round and punches big holes in deer and hogs, explodes gallon milk jugs filled with water at 50 yds which is fun to see...

144289

[44MAG#1]

Almost identical to the 520 gr I have from NEI. Mine is a plain base. Sized to .459". My mold number is actually 460 525.

[Tar Heel]

What do we have to do to get Hornady to STOP using shorter than standard brass which is not up to SAAMI spec?

[olafhardt]

FWIW, I'd be VERY leery of using ANY load hotter than those listed for the leverguns (M-86 Win/MM-95 Marlins) in that break open single shot. It's not NEARLY in the class of a #1 Ruger or 1885 Browning single shot, strength-wise, and it's entirely possible that you could get into pressure trouble real fast with the break open single shots. Just not nearly the strength there, and they'll wear out in some critical places, too, just like some old double shotguns can wear if you feed them steady diets of heavy loads. Just a FWIW?
I just looked up the SAAMI data on 500 S&W. It was around 65000 psi and it has a much larger head area. I have one and find it very enjoyable. The only problem I would have with Ruger loads would be recoil. When I reloaded 458 Winchester the minimum book loads of 3031 overran the case. I reduced them till the powder came to the base off the Jacketed projectile. Worked.

[milkman]

I shoot the same boolit in the same rifle and in my OPINION you don't need a Ruger level load unless you are hunting grizzly. I shoot pure lead, gas checked lubed with LLA at less than 1200 fps. I shot a few at 1500 fps and found them very, very unpleasant to shoot. Also, while the barrel will stand the pressure I did have the action flex enough to allow it to unlock with the higher loads. I listened to what it was telling me. The only reason I shoot the 500g boolit ( 14 to the pound ) is that it is cloverleaf accurate at 100 yds. and I am too cheap to buy yet another mold to keep looking for accuracy in a lighter boolit and at lower velocity it is not at all unpleasant to shoot. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[JimP.]

i shoot 500 gr bullets in my Handi rifle also. Here is what i do to find the OAL (over all length) for the loaded cartridge. First i slide my cleaning rod down the barrel and let it rest on the bolt face and mark the rod. Then i open the action and drop a bullet into the chamber and push it carefully into the leade of the barrel till it stops. Then i slide the cleaning rod down the barrel again till it stops on the bullet nose without pushing the bullet out and mark the cleaning rod. With my caliper i measure the marks and write the number down. This is the length of a cartridge with the bullet touching the lands. Now with most loads, you DO NOT want your loaded cartridge to touch the lands. Simply subtract .020 from the length and this becomes the OAL for your load. Use this length to seat your bullet in the brass your using. Since the Hornady brass is shorter, you might have a grease groove exposed, if so seat a little deeper to cover it. Measure it again and this is your OAL. In my experience with the Handi rifle, 500 gr bullet at 1350 fps is just as good killer as a faster load and its better for your shoulder. Hope this helps you. JimP.

[tinhorn97062]

I shoot heavy's in my Handi Rifle and I also use 3031. 40 Gr behind a 430gr WFN gave me cloverleaf accuracy. I have some 500gr boolits from a Lee mold that I plan to shoot with the same powder charge. I have the boolit seated to touch the lands when I chamber...I've found that my gun seems to like things hitting the lands.

As for strength, in MY gun, I've run some pretty stout loads and it handles it just fine. With that said, anything over about 1600-1700 fps just isn't much fun to shoot anymore. I believe an ounce of lead at 1400fps will cruise through whatever is in front of it just fine and anything over that is probably a waste of powder.

[MT Chambers]

Ditch the short brass!
Stop using Ruger #1 load data!
Get the Lyman cast bullet handbook #4!

[Tar Heel]

ditch the short brass!
Stop using ruger #1 load data!
Get the lyman cast bullet handbook #4!

^^^^ bingo ^^^^