COWW question

[Jonesy]

Is there any difference noticed in BHN when dealing with the big long wheel weights opposed to the shorter lighter ones? My local scrap yard allows me to dig through and pick what I want out, but I don't have any way of measuring hardness yet. My own logic tells me that IF there is a difference, the shorter ones may be softer, as there is not as much weight needing to be held together from the centrifugal force being delivered by a wheel. Anyone ever checked this and found a difference? I'm really looking for the softest usable alloy I can get for my .45 ACP loads as I like to capture them, and the harder alloys tend to shatter sometimes against a harder target while the softer tend to mushroom out and stop without too much penetration.

[runfiverun]

the big 8 and up truck sized ww's are a bit harder.
but all the car ones from .25 oz up through 3-4 oz are pretty much the same.
you might get a bit of difference between the india made ones and the china made ones but it ain't anough to much matter.
now about 15 years ago the stick-on type were all soft lead with a little tin added now day's [shrug] who knows.

what I would do Is get about 2,000 pounds of clip-on ww's and 1,000 pounds of roof sheeting lead and mix them together, throw some tin in the mix and cast away.

[Jonesy]

I haven't come across anything over 4 oz. yet, I just tend to grab the biggest ones so I'm not paying for too much weight in clips. I'll honestly use any lead that I come by as my 1911 just gobbles it all up, but the harder alloys seem to not provide as much accuracy. My last batch was super hard and lead to a 6'' group at 7 yards, softer ones I can stack pretty well on top of each other at 15 yards. Maybe I just had a bad shooting day, but I think the alloy had something to do with it, I hope it did at least! Thanks for the info though, I'll keep grabbing what I can and build a reserve one day so I can hone something better in.
A tip I found is that gold prospectors can be your best friends for soft lead, they pick up tons of it and normally chuck it out. My father in law brings them home to me now and they provide really soft lead compared to what's produced in bullets nowadays. They're normally pretty oxidized from sitting in the elements for decades, but once a few melt down the rest go pretty quick.

[lightman]

I have not noticed any hardness difference between the size of clip-on wheelweights. Stick-on weights are a softer allow. There is a sticky on stick-on weights on here that a member made that has some good info. I have found that older weights, like from 20,30 or 40 years ago are made from a harder alloy.

Tell us more about the prospectors finding lead.

[runfiverun]

the specific gravity of lead is 17 and the specific gravity of gold is 19.
water is 1.
anyplace you find one heavy metal washed down a stream and deposited you will find another heavy metal there too.
bird and buck-shot find their ways into the water way's the same way gold does from placer deposits.
only fish don't eat it like condors do.

[Jonesy]

Gold prospectors that metal detect will pick up loads of old bullets since they hit just like gold does on the machine. My father-in-law bought a gold claim out in the middle of nowhere and he finds all kinds of old bullets. He does find the occasional j-word or plated bullet, but most of them seem to be cast lead from ages ago. Some days he might find a handful, other times he can find pounds of them. He used to toss them until I started casting and asked him about it. If you can find multiple prospectors, their lead finds can really add up quickly and they would likely just give it to you since they're not interested in the lead one bit. I've taken his detector out to my middle of nowhere shooting area and found some quantities of old lead myself.
I think someone used to shoot where I do a long time ago, and it kind of sat dormant until I started going there. I tend to find them in groups where the person most likely set their targets.
I also set tree stumps behind targets when my buddies tag along with me so I can grab all their lead as well, I just don't tell them that's why I do it. Give them a safety talk about how you don't want to risk something ricocheting into the distance and hitting something or someone you shouldn't. Once the stump gets packed with lead, just burn it and pick up the chunk of lead left behind.

[lightman]

That info about prospectors is interesting. I've never been around it and don't know any. I bet some of those old bullets would be interesting! Thanks for the info!

[white eagle]

like most have already told you
The bhn of long vs.short ww is not enough to worry about (if there is any at all)
Curious about your group with your hard alloy vs soft out of your 45
I wondered did you let your hard alloy age awhile before you used them?
could have been you hard wasn't "set" (age hardened) at the time you shot them
I have run into accuracy issues with the harder alloy's and after I left them and revisited
them after awhile accuracy improved
your mileage may vary though

[aharlow]

I stick to a BHN of 16-18 on my revolver/handgun cast boolits. I use an alloy mix of COWW's with 3% Tin and water quench for my hard cast and then just air cooled right out of the mold for my softer boolits. Any harder is over kill and may hurt accuracy and boolit Obturation. Here is a good read that i found really helpful. http://www.sixguns.com/crew/obturation.htm

[RogerDat]

Interesting bit of information on gold prospectors and lead. If I was picking WW's I would go for the larger ones for the same reason, less clip weight as "waste". With the large number of WW's combined in the melt of 50-100 lbs. the alloy is going to reflect an average of the entire mix. Pretty much certain to be a vague average, outside of control. It is the reason for doing large batches, get a big pile of WW alloy that is consistent within that batch. Melted in 10 lb. batches a couple harder of softer ones can impact the average more. Done in batches of 150 or 1000 lbs. the next big batch will probably average out to the same as the last one.

On accuracy. If the bullet gets too hard for the pressure (from powder load) pushing it then obturation won't be sufficient to deform the bullet into the rifling. Unless there is a really perfect fit between barrel and bullet the ability of the lead to expand in response to the rapid pressure from behind is a critical factor for accuracy.

This accuracy of hard vs. soft lead shows up in the magnum revolvers, hard enough for full bore magnum powder loads may not be accurate for low power plinking load because the low power load does not push the hard lead enough to get the necessary amount of obruration. Thinking it may be a factor with your situation.

[lightman]

Thats the reason that I smelt in batches of 350-400#. That weight was just what the pot that I scrounged will hold. 400# of wheelweights is also a good place to dump your small batches of odd alloy. I cast with this but also use it to blend smaller batches.

[Jonesy]

I don't believe that batch sat long before shooting them, likely a week or so. I was trying water quenching with them at the time just to experiment and didn't really like them for my application. I gave them my scientific BHN hammer test, and when whacked real good, they barely deformed at all. After a bunch of scientific blows with the hammer they eventually started to split in half. My normal castings that I air cool just flatten out.

I rarely have an extra few bucks to spend on the hobby so I normally smelt in small 15-20# batches. The 45 seems very forgiving with alloys and powders as long as you can get your COL in the right place, just doesn't seem to like real hard lead. I imagine the obturation has a lot to do with it really since my loads are at the bottom end of powder charge. I have to seat them at 1.90 so I'm wary on moving up the charge scale too far.