Harbor Freight solar Kit

[Circuit Rider]

A couple of years ago I bought a solar kit from HF and let it sit until now. I'm thinking of getting another one, purchase a couple of deep cell marine batteries and inverter and use it for emergencies to power my fridge and freezer. What I would like is comments as to whether I'm wasting my time and money or if it would be practical on a small scale as this. Thanks, CR

[rancher1913]

you need to do a bunch of research on solar before you try anything. you really need to understand the relationships between volts, amps, watts, amp hours, etc.
with out specifics that system probably would not run a normal fridge and freezer more than a few hours, no where near the 24 hours you would need. also the kits might not "work" together, you need to make sure everything is compatible. its a great idea and is well worth doing.

[Handloader109]

HF is not where I would go for something like this. There solar stuff is OK for trying to keep your lawnmower battery charged but that's about it.

[bangerjim]

And remember, deep discharge batteries are expensive and will need to be replaced every 2-3 years. Just more $$ out the window. They go bad just sitting there.

The HF stuff is designed for someone wanting to power a few simple 12vdc lights in a camper or remote cabin.

Inverters are extremely inefficient and really suck power.

If you really want to go down that path, I would seriously look other places than the toys they sell at HF. And be prepared to spend serious bucks.

[jmort]

You would need a fair amount of panel wattage to run refrigerator or freezer, I'm thinking around 1200 watts plus, and a serious battery bank, and an inverter and.... Get mono-crystalline panels. Do some due diligence as there is much to learn.

[GRUMPA]

Take it from someone that lives on solar 24/7.....Your wasting your money and efforts on that project. Most domestic fridges use somewhere around 600wts, freezers even more. My freezer uses less power in a day than most use in an hour, almost the same for my fridge. I have a 1700 Watt hours worth of batteries (12-6v) for power after the sun goes down.

It's a very involved learning curve, I've been living off of solar now for 10yrs and I'm still learning details.

Click this link and look at the bottom of the first thread, there's a couple of pictures of my solar system..

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150466-300-AAC-Blackout-Brass-(Price-Change)-6-19-14

[jmort]

"It's a very involved learning curve, I've been living off of solar now for 10yrs and I'm still learning details."

There you go, someone who has been there and done that.

[Fishman]

Get a generator for emergencies. They are very useful. The little Honda inverter generators are nice if you only want to run some appliances.

[cheese1566]

I have a solar voltage regulator if your interested. It regulates current from the solar cells to the battery so it doesn't over charge.

[GRUMPA]

Almost forgot the generator part till Fishman mentioned it.

I built my own, this is a 6HP engine that drives an alternator that been rewound for 34V D/C and puts out 11Amps. The engine runs at just above an idle, has just under a 1 gal fuel tank, and runs almost 9hrs on a fill. I have it on now, it powers the batteries, and right now it'll run the swamp cooler and T.V. with a very little left over charging the batteries.

Here's a link to the picture.... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/album.php?albumid=934&attachmentid=89372

[jmort]

@ Grumpa check this out, I believe you did what these guys created a kit for.
http://theepicenter.com/tow082099.html

[MaryB]

HF solar is WAYYYYY over priced! But to run a fridge alone that will use 3kwh a day needs some serious battery! My fridge is a converted chest freezer that draws 400wh in a day! But it is a trade off with a lot less space. I have 1200 watts of panels installed, a 928AH battery bank(16 6 volt batteries)...

Good inverters approach 90++% efficiency so that is not a big issue anymore, charge controllers are in the same ballpark for quality MPPT. But you are talking a minimum of $3-4k to duplicate my system! I run the fridge 24/7 unless it is really cloudy for days on end. Runs living room lighting(soon to be all house lighting), and my ham radio gear 24/7. Also runs my computer until battery drops to 80% then the transfer switch drops me back on grid.

Battery box with lids removed and before I got venting and some of the wiring done. Had just built it...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/IMG_20141129_2034571201_zps5d3f8a7e.jpg

Inverters, charge controllers(adding 1200 more watts of panels), comm controller junction box...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/IMG_20141128_2229403461_zps32720917.jpg

First set of 8 panels for 1200 watts, takes up a 10x10' square of space!

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/Solar-panels-complete.jpg

Then you need lightning protectors, wiring, junction boxes and disconnects outside... it is not cheap but I get frequent short power outages that meant starting a generator for 5-6 hours at least 4 times a month. Got tired of it so now I flip a switch!

[MtGun44]

Designed, built and have run a cabin in Colorado on solar for more than 20 years. Forget the refrigerator
deal, too much power required. If you are really worried, buy a propane refrigerator, try to get a used one
from a big RV. The guts will never wear out, so if the outside and shelves, etc are OK, get it. Propane stores
forever without deterioration, refrig/freezer uses near zero propane.

First rule of solar power - ONLY use electricity on stuff that can ONLY be done with electricity, AND uses a small
amount of power. No hair driers, no electric stoves or ovens, no electric heat of any kind, no refrigerators, no
deep well pumps. Put everything possible on propane or wood, then run the TV, lights, computers, etc from solar
and you will be fine.

Bill

[MaryB]

Flip side is a guy I know in WI, all the modern appliances, washer, gas dryer, gas water heater. He is 100% off grid with solar/wind/battery so it can be done. And as I mentioned a chest freezer with outboard temp control uses very little power for a refrigerator. But for a small system moving lighting, laptop, other barely used items off grid is best bet. Get a small generator for power outages.

[Circuit Rider]

Grumpa, I knew you'd have a great deal of knowledge about this. Thanks to all of you for your input. It's amazing that regardless of the subject, the level of expertise so many members of CB possess, and are willing to share. Thanks again, CR

[andremajic]

Designed, built and have run a cabin in Colorado on solar for more than 20 years. Forget the refrigerator
deal, too much power required. If you are really worried, buy a propane refrigerator, try to get a used one
from a big RV. The guts will never wear out, so if the outside and shelves, etc are OK, get it. Propane stores
forever without deterioration, refrig/freezer uses near zero propane.

First rule of solar power - ONLY use electricity on stuff that can ONLY be done with electricity, AND uses a small
amount of power. No hair driers, no electric stoves or ovens, no electric heat of any kind, no refrigerators, no
deep well pumps. Put everything possible on propane or wood, then run the TV, lights, computers, etc from solar
and you will be fine.

Bill

Propane is really the way to go. I'm glad you mentioned it, because most people don't even think such a thing exists.
If you can hook up a ram pump to move water to fill a tank with good elevation you can also get decent water pressure without having to worry about supplying electricity.

Electricity should power the few luxuries that you just "can't live without". Stove, refrigerator, water can all be worked without electricity or batteries.

[John Allen]

I have thought of solar myself and have not been able to figure a way to do it without going all in.

[popper]

you won't live long enough to make break even.

[MaryB]

Payback on my system is 11 years, includes a battery replacement. Panels have a 25 year warranty for 80% rated output. But I did not do it to save money. It is my backup generator unless we have a really long power outage. It will run the corn stove to heat the house for t days for example without sun to recharge things(in winter I can put food in my porch to keep it cold, freezer I can put in the shed and it will stay below 15 for weeks with no power). With my trashed back and shoulders trying to pull start a generator at -20 is an exercise in futility, I do not have the upper body strength anymore. I need an electric start generator and a heated shed to keep it in...

[MtGun44]

If you have access to mains power, use it. Mary is using hers as an emergency backup, so it is a good deal
since the batteries are kept charged up essentially all the time, since they are only for emergency use. Batteries
in this type of float charge application will last a long time.

I use L16 batteries (think the biggest truck battery you ever saw and then double the height, and 6V only, intended
for deep discharge). The first set was in great shape at 7 years but I had a charge controller failure when we were
gone for 4 months in the winter. Pb-acid batteries self-discharge at about 1% per day or so, so the batteries were low and
froze and broke the cases.

I replaced them and had the charge controller repaired, and they have been in use for 13 years, no problems
and still hold what seems to be a full charge. My system is small, but will run lights, water pump (from cistern so no
high lifting), sat TV, DVD players and misc recharging of phones (no cell service, it is in the middle of nowhere) for
3 days with overcast conditions, which is EXTREMELY rare in southern Colorado in the mountains. Finally got
access to mains power a few years ago and decided to ignore it. System meets our needs perfectly, and never
had a power bill for 20 years.

We only run the backup genset about once every two years to run the clothes washer since we mostly take dirty clothes
home to wash them, rarely wash clothes at the cabin. Even moderate power tool use during the construction was fine,
although belt sanding the floors took the generator, as did the air compressor when we used the nail gun.
System has a 4x6 foot panel (surplus from a commercial electric plant that ran out of government subsidy and
closed) and 375 amphour battery, 1 kw continuous smart inverter and a pulse width modulation charge controller.
Pretty simple and cost $2200 in parts 20 yrs ago and I did all the engineering, design and installation. Not too
hard if you are handy.

[MaryB]

Actually mine are powering the freezer to fridge conversion, my ham gear, living room lighting 24/7. On the rare occasion I fall below 60% SOC the inverter shuts down for the fridge and drops it back on grid. They typically hit 80% SOC most days in summer and 65% winter. When I add more panels(sitting in my storage room, neck stuff put that on hold) and double my array to 2400 watts I will run even more via solar during daylight hours and use the voltage controlled relay Morningstar sells to shut things down as needed after the sun goes down. I run small 30 amp transfer switches at the output of each inverter so when they drop it goes back to grid or just off if grid is not available. I try to automate as much as possibe and have a low voltage alarm setup in case of failures so I can manually switch inverters off if needed.

Wish these inverters had a simple high/low on off terminal on the back for power control! I use this for the power control http://www.morningstarcorp.com/products/relay-driver/ and each port can sink about 200ma if memory is right. Would work well that way as inverter on/off.

I might upgrade to L16's next time around when this set of bats fails. I will be adding more and more solar as I can afford it too. I use a smaller 140 watt 12 volt panel that is light enough for me to lift with my messed up back and shoulders and a pair can usually be had for around $300 +- when they are on sale. Little higher price per watt but shipping is fedex ground instead of freight so it balances out unless I would buy a pallet of panels at once. https://www.solarblvd.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_269&products_id=2668

[Rustyleee]

I think it was around 2003 my son did a science fair project for school where he did research and built 2 spreadsheets on home solar power. From his research we found that if charges per KW/HR remained the same it would take about 12 years to break even on a whole house solar system. That didn't figure in raising power costs, or repair costs to the system.

[RobsTV]

It would be wise to pickup a normal 12v inverter either way. You could then use it to do your own testing, as well as have an option to use something like a car running to produce power as a last resort. I was amazed at how long a normal marine cell battery would run a room window A/C unit without any help from alternative power. At end of an 8 hour work day, I stopped testing, but battery still had plenty of juice.

During some tropical storm power outages that lasted a few days, the inverter and car system worked great. Run vehicle at idle for 20 minutes ever hour was enough to keep battery charged enough to power side by side fridge, cell phone chargers, laptop, small TV and room fan when vehicle was turned off. While running, also charged other batteries just in case.

I have been using the HF kit for a few years, and it works well for what it is. Mostly use it to power a 16" attic fan during daylight hours, plus a Foscam wireless IP camera 24/7, and battery never breaks a sweat. Combined with using something gas powered to charge batteries might stretch the gas motor off time a little longer (very little). It is nice to have quiet power time instead of cars and generators running. Goal is to have room a/c unit last most of the night on a just a battery, and looks like it could be possible. But not if only relying on HF panels.

[leadman]

I started out with a HF kit on my motorhome. It is expensive for the little power it produces. It is easy to setup in an emergency plus it comes with a couple 12v florescent lights that plug into the controller. Controller also has outlets for different voltages plus a USB port.

I bought additional panels and a charge controller off E-bay from Renogy Solar. Good prices and seems to be good stuff. My motorhome has LED lights that only draw .5 watts for 4 lights. Fridge is a 3 way, propane, 12v, and 110v. Can boondock now with no need to run the on-board generator indefinitely. I can even charge the boat trolling motor battery off the solar.
To run a fridge and freezer during a power outage a small generator does work fine for a house. Use StaBil in the gas and run it couple of months and run the carb out of fuel and it stores fine.
I have an inexpensive Champion 1200 watt that runs mine in a power outage. Only need to power one at a time since they stay cold for a long time normally. Easy on gas also. For long term outage we can move to the motorhome or if it is too hot.

[ascast]

As an emergency bkup, by a generator. I am NOT anti solar, but truth is you can live a day or more before the freezer starts to turn. Same with fridge. Canned goods, dry goods, and propane stove (cast boolit rig) and a reserve of bottled water will get you through a couple days. Plan enough extra "B" grade water to flush toilet a couple times a day, and wash up. Also, store some water in frozen form, i.e keep freezer and fridge full up as much as practical. Use milk jugs full of water to help. Thermal mass helps a lot. Locate freezer (and fridge) in places where it is naturally cool anyway. That can buy you many hours. And you can throw a few blankets over it too. That will buy a few hours. Practice the drill sometime when you have power. full on off grid takes some planning and maybe a few lifestyle changes. I think the HF kit will leave you disappointed.
good luck

[scarry scarney]

I run a fireworks stand for the fourth. We are using a 200 watt kit from Amazon. 2 panels, a Renology charge controller, cables, and connectors, with tax $400 delivered.(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BCRG22A?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00). We already had a deep cycle battery, and were given a 300 watt pure sine wave inverter. Runs our LED lighting (both white light to see, and flashing strobes to attract attention) and fans, credit card reader, and a mobile wifi hotspot. Very happy, yes it's more than the HF Kit, but we are expandable, and have enough power to run all day, and into the night. This week we already saw 110 degrees, so the fans are a must!

[DeputyDog25]

My wife and I have been considering taking out a home equity loan to put in a complete solar system so that we can live completely off the grid and as Grumpa said, it is a learning curve and we have been talking with a company who does these systems. We were actually surprised that the cost was far less than what we thought it would be, we are just mulling over the cost of the loan versus the savings on the electric.

[MaryB]

First step in going off grid is deciding what you can change to save electricity. LED lights, motion sensing switches, clothes line instead of a dryer... sure you can power that stuff with solar, if you have deep pockets! Gas water heater instead of electric, go to LED TV instead of CFL backlit, low power computer and monitors...

[GRUMPA]

Another thing to be aware of. Something they call Ghost Loads and Vampire drains. Most folks think that when they turn off the TV it doesn't use any power.

[Mal Paso]

Regular Deep Cycle batteries like L-16s will last 6+ years if kept charged but won't last 2 discharged. If you don't permanently mount the panels to charge the batteries automatically every day you will need a maintenance charger. Charging Flooded Lead Acid batteries means water loss and distilled water needs to be added every month or so. Gel and AGM batteries are Not Good for solar despite what The Salesman says. I've taken $12,000 worth to recycling so far.

[rbertalotto]

I'm a Solar "junkie"......My reloading trailer has solar ( www.rvbprecision.com)....My Pick-Up Truck camper has solar ( http://rvbprecision.com/palomino-bronco-1200-camper-project/solar-panel-installation-on-a-palamino-bronco-truck-camper.html ) , my motorcycle has Solar ( http://rvbprecision.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-mobile-office.html ) and I have 10,500 Kwh on my house. My house has no storage (yet!), I just backfeed the meter and get credits from the utility and use the "grid" at night. Last year my total electric bill for the whole year was $390......I went with SolarCity with their zero money out of pocket and leased the system for 20 years. SolarCity is now offering the Tesla (same owners) battery back for house use. Mine is getting installed in the fall. This will let me get rid of the generator as the battery pack can easily get me through the night and back on the panels during the day. But this will be a huge battery pack fed from a 10K plus grid. In the RV world, folks don't realize how much solar and battery they need just to run their campers on a day by day basis. They think they can buy a 60 watt system and run everything like they do on a 6K generator.....NOPE!

143813

Harbor Freight is where I wasted good money when I started to get involved with solar. Their systems are very expensive "Per Watt" and the charge controllers are extremely poor. I now buy all my solar equipment from AltE Store ( http://www.altestore.com/store/ )...Great folks and they are local to me so no shipping. But AMAZON has some of the best deals going on solar and if you are a PRIME member, no shipping charges.

[jonp]

Get a tri power fridge if your going to do this right. I bought a small fridge and on propane alone its less than 20gal/mth.

Change every light you have to led. Hot water tank on a timer etc. You just have to be mindful of what you are doing

[MtGun44]

My current L16s are in great shape at 10 years, kept floated by the panels when I am away.

Can't imagine solar panels, batteries and inverter working out economically for anyone who
can get mains power. If you do the same things to switch stuff from electricity to propane
as you need to do for solar (refrigerator, freezer, hot water, NO AC, NO electric heaters,
etc), yet stay on mains power your electric bill will be negligable, like $25 a month.

If you have high electric bills because of AC, baseboard heat, electric hot water, big refrig
and freezer, or three and try to purchase a solar system large enough to carry these loads, you will be
spending a huge amount of money, and in many parts of the country will never come anywhere near
breaking even on your solar system.

Bill

[jonp]

We have a couple of window AC units and 2 freezers. Even so our electric bill is about $60/mth avg. We put the hot water tank on a timer, outside lights on timer, changed all bulbs to led, pulled out the central furnace and put in room wall mount gas heaters, etc. It would take a long time to recoup a solar set up at that rate but cost is rarely the reason people go full solar.

[big bore 99]

Sure sounds like an awful expensive hobby/novelty. I guess you can't compete with coal or nuclear.

[easy ed]

HF solar is WAYYYYY over priced! But to run a fridge alone that will use 3kwh a day needs some serious battery! My fridge is a converted chest freezer that draws 400wh in a day! But it is a trade off with a lot less space. I have 1200 watts of panels installed, a 928AH battery bank(16 6 volt batteries)...

Good inverters approach 90++% efficiency so that is not a big issue anymore, charge controllers are in the same ballpark for quality MPPT. But you are talking a minimum of $3-4k to duplicate my system! I run the fridge 24/7 unless it is really cloudy for days on end. Runs living room lighting(soon to be all house lighting), and my ham radio gear 24/7. Also runs my computer until battery drops to 80% then the transfer switch drops me back on grid.

Battery box with lids removed and before I got venting and some of the wiring done. Had just built it...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/IMG_20141129_2034571201_zps5d3f8a7e.jpg

Inverters, charge controllers(adding 1200 more watts of panels), comm controller junction box...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/IMG_20141128_2229403461_zps32720917.jpg

First set of 8 panels for 1200 watts, takes up a 10x10' square of space!

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/maryalanab/Solar-panels-complete.jpg

Then you need lightning protectors, wiring, junction boxes and disconnects outside... it is not cheap but I get frequent short power outages that meant starting a generator for 5-6 hours at least 4 times a month. Got tired of it so now I flip a switch!

Question. Why are you using 6 volt battery's? Seems to me that 8 12 volt battery's would take a lot less space.

Ed

[jmort]

"Why are you using 6 volt battery's?"

They hold a lot of juice, aka amp hours.

[MaryB]

Yup they are 232 amp hours and 4 in series gives me 24v for the inverters then 4 sets of 4 to give me 24 volts at 928 amp hours.

[Lloyd Smale]

what type of fridge and freezer do you have that draws so little
Take it from someone that lives on solar 24/7.....Your wasting your money and efforts on that project. Most domestic fridges use somewhere around 600wts, freezers even more. My freezer uses less power in a day than most use in an hour, almost the same for my fridge. I have a 1700 Watt hours worth of batteries (12-6v) for power after the sun goes down.

It's a very involved learning curve, I've been living off of solar now for 10yrs and I'm still learning details.

Click this link and look at the bottom of the first thread, there's a couple of pictures of my solar system..

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150466-300-AAC-Blackout-Brass-(Price-Change)-6-19-14

[MtGun44]

Propane refrigerator. Zero electricity and near zero propane.

[RogerDat]

The HF solar kits are really over priced. They run about $189 for 45 watts in 3 panels, Renogy 50 watt panel runs $90 with a charge controller (regulates and prevents battery back feeding the panels at night) runs $20 - $35.

Considering that your existing refrigerator and freezer were the basis of your question the answer is they are not economically powered by solar. What you can do with solar and batteries is run a lot of other stuff which can allow you to run a modest generator a couple or three times a day to maintain the temperature inside the fridge and freezer rather than non-stop. One could also run the furnace or AC intermittently off of a generator rather than non-stop.

I always think in terms of amp hours. Batteries are rated as storing a certain number of amp hours. Solar panels while sold by wattage all list amps of output. This makes the calculations of what am I going to need or get simple. An amp hour is the power to run a 1 amp device for 1 hour. A 10 amp draw for 2 hours is 20 amp hours. Same as 2 amp draw for 10 hours. High demand for short time or low demand for long time will need the same amp hours. So it becomes what do my devices draw and how long will I run them. Fan might run all day, light in the bathroom might only run for 1 hr. a day but draw more power. You just add it all up.


Device draws x amps and I run it for y hours. That equals how many amp hours I need to run that device. All my devices power usage for 24 hrs. equals my total amp hours required per day.
Solar panel generates x number of amps for every hour it has good sunlight. Anything it produces above usage during sunlight hours is stored in the battery. Good rule of thumb. 4 hrs. of full amp production + 4 hrs. at 50% of full amp production. Accounts for morning and evening when solar output is reduced.
Battery stores the surplus power produced by the solar panel. Stores a set number of amp hours BUT you can only draw 1/2 of that because draining a battery below 50% charge really shortens the life of the battery.


Having more batteries or bigger batteries allows one to store a greater reserve of amp hours or power devices with higher amp demands. More solar panels allows you to produce more surplus above and beyond daytime consumption that can be stored in the batteries.

If you want to run a house you need a lot of storage (batteries) plus a lot of production (panels) unless you reduce usage (appliances). Bear in mind a single 12 volt deep cycle and 50 - 100 watt solar panel is enough to provide a lot of added comfort for a camper or motor home, your 45 watt HF panel could do the same since you already have it. You will want an inverter to transform 12 volt from battery into 110 volt house current for some devices.

In a camper you just don't get to run the microwave all the time and fridge is probably propane powered. Lights, small water pump, fan to provide cool air or distribute heat, charger for laptop, phone or other devices. Maybe the TV or radio with sat antenna for a few hours. It really does not take much to make a significant difference in comfort. And a genny allows you to provide power for things in fuel saving short runs.

[Lloyd Smale]

that will do it. That's how we do it at camp. I thought maybe there was some magic low draw electric units you were referring to.
Propane refrigerator. Zero electricity and near zero propane.