Casting Round balls for a .50

[Bad Andy]

I have a TC Gray Hawk percussion (stainless with synthetic stock). I have put at least 200 soft cast maxi balls through it using Pyrodex and more recently American Pioneer poweder. I would like to try shooting a patched round ball on top Black Powder. I am looking at Lee 2 cav round ball molds in .490 and .492 dia and wonder which one I need or what whould you all reccomend and why. I know the gun will tell me what it likes for charge and patch thickness. I am almost thinking a .492 mold as the barrrel is "broken in".

[rr2241tx]

Chances are that your barrel is too fast a twist to work well with roundballs. Measure it. If it is faster than about 1 turn in 48 inches, stick with REAL bullets or MaxiBalls. Otherwise, don't waste your time with small balls, get a Lee 90452 that will cast .500 in pure lead and a bag of lubed 0.005 round patches and patch until it just won't go then switch to that thickness of patches. 2F or 3F should both work, use whichever burns cleaner for you. Holy Black will make you swear off that sticky kid stuff.

[dondiego]

Smaller charges of powder, say 50 to 60 grains might get you where you need to go with round balls.............but why not just buy a traditional side lock with a 1 in 66 inch twist? Darn good reason to buy a new shooter!

[Maven]

Bad Andy, The situation isn't quite as bleak as rr2241tx made it out to be. While RB's in a fast twist bbl. can be problematic, they can also be accurate, as HarryMPope (screen name here) has shown and as dondiego mentioned. The easiest thing to do would be to slug your bore with one of the Maxi-Balls and then determine which RB diameter would be more suitable. However, I doubt you'll see any meaningful difference in casting or accuracy in either of the two diameters you mentioned. Keep in mind that RB moulds, regardless of maker, rarely cast as marked (assuming pure Pb). What you can do is purchase a mould that fits your bore (after slugging it), and vary the patch thickness first and then the powder charge. I'd recommend starting with 50gr. Pyrodex RS or 50gr. FFg and test at 50 yd. Btw, I've had good luck with a .490" RB (.488" - .492" depending on the mould) and a .018" pillow ticking patch using charges of 50-, 60-, and 65gr. FFg. A nominally .495" (.497" in fact) RB is equally accurate.

[44man]

Chances are that your barrel is too fast a twist to work well with roundballs. Measure it. If it is faster than about 1 turn in 48 inches, stick with REAL bullets or MaxiBalls. Otherwise, don't waste your time with small balls, get a Lee 90452 that will cast .500 in pure lead and a bag of lubed 0.005 round patches and patch until it just won't go then switch to that thickness of patches. 2F or 3F should both work, use whichever burns cleaner for you. Holy Black will make you swear off that sticky kid stuff.
THIS, 100%. Anything faster then 1 in 48" will kick your butt.

[Blackwater]

It may also be worth noting that there are TWO KINDS of BP rifled barrels. One is the old "round ball" style with very slow twists and comparatively deep rifling, and the other is the "conical" design, with faster twist to stabilize the longer conical designs, that also has shallower rifling so that lubed conicals can be rammed down the barrel a bit easier and so they'll seal off the powder gasses a bit better. Trying to shoot the one kind of projectile in the other's designed tubes CAN be frustrating, but if you persist and think, it's not impossible. I'm not the most experienced muzzle loader here, so I'll leave it to those to give you the best advice, but I'll note that a buddy found that shooting relatively light loads of powder in his T/C, which is designed for conicals, really helped him get decent results. FWIW?

[rsrocket1]

Looks like that is the stainless steel version of a New Englander. Some web surfing says that it's a 1:48" twist which means you might be able to successfully shoot roundballs with it. You might want to buy a box of pre cast roundballs. Of course a Lee 2 cavity mold would cost about the same so it might be a better value to buy the mold and try them out. You could recoup some of your money by selling the mold if it doesn't work out. I've heard of some shooting roundballs out of their 1:28 inlines with really low charges and getting pretty decent accuracy out to 50 yards.

[Maven]

Sorry to disagree with you 44man, but my 1:28" twist Knight Bighorn (Green Mt. factory bbl.) will shoot RB's accurately enough, but as I mentioned with 50 - 60r. charges of FFg. HarryMPope uses at least 70gr. and gets excellent accuracy as well. Btw, I "swaged" a .530" RB down to .512" in a sizing die that I have, and fired it with no patch and just the base of an MMP sabot and got good (better than minute of deer) accuracy with 60r. FFg, but it's not something I'd repeat. A nominally .490" or .495" RB with an appropriately tight patch can work well in those fast twist bbls.

[Ifishsum]

I shoot .490s in both of my T/C Hawkens, with a thicker .018 pillow tick patch. I can also load it with .495s but have to use a much thinner patch; the .490s and thicker patch shoots more accurately for me but YMMV. If I were to pick one most likely to work it would definitely be the .490.

Mine are both 1:48 and shoot round balls quite well, so long as I don't try to push much past 75grs or so of powder.

edit: i now see you said .492 rather than .495..I doubt you would notice much difference between .490 and .492 either way

[quilbilly]

I also have a Grey Hawk 50 and have been shooting round ball in it for at least 15 years. It groups at about 2-1/2" at 100 yards off the bench which is not as good as the Hawken but has accounted for well over a dozen deer and an elk or two. I am using a 490 ball with an .010 patch currently lubing with 1000 Lube but also shoots well with Crisco. The load is 78 gr of FFF Goex. It also shoots well with sabots and 240 gr 429 boolits using the same load of powder but I much prefer round ball for deer. It is my "go-to" for the late season hunts here during the PacNW monsoon season in Nov-Dec. Every rifle has its own personality and mine likes a greased patch run down the bore after the ball is seated for best accuracy. Oh, lest I forget - yes I do cast all my own round ball and I actually carefully file the sprue off each one which I guess makes me weird.

[Motor]

Sorry to disagree with you 44man, but my 1:28" twist Knight Bighorn (Green Mt. factory bbl.) will shoot RB's accurately enough, but as I mentioned with 50 - 60r. charges of FFg. HarryMPope uses at least 70gr. and gets excellent accuracy as well. Btw, I "swaged" a .530" RB down to .512" in a sizing die that I have, and fired it with no patch and just the base of an MMP sabot and got good (better than minute of deer) accuracy with 60r. FFg, but it's not something I'd repeat. A nominally .490" or .495" RB with an appropriately tight patch can work well in those fast twist bbls.

I have 3 Knight rifles and none of them will shoot round balls worth a darn with any powder charge unless you call being able the hit the dirt bank at 50 yards acceptable.

The REAL 250gr on the other hand is squirrel killing accurate from all of them.

Motor

[Lead Fred]

Tho I despise this modern contraptions, the twist is to fast, and If borrow some balls from a friend, and try them before you spend the bread

[44man]

Many newer guns have very shallow rifling and it could make a difference with a RB. Best will be .010" deep.
The original TC Hawken was a super shooter but I seen a difference in later guns to the point nothing would shoot. The old ones would shoot 5 shots touching at 50.
Many bought after market drop in barrels, Green River I think they were.
A 50 for RB needs a 1 in 60" rate but the 1 in 48" could handle them. All my friends went to inlines and none has been able to shoot a RB. I watched guys shoot those pellets of powder and if the bore was not wiped, they had to stick the ram rod against a tree to force some of those funny sabots down.
Then the cost to shoot them has to the worst ever.

[Maven]

I have 3 Knight rifles and none of them will shoot round balls worth a darn with any powder charge unless you call being able the hit the dirt bank at 50 yards acceptable.

The REAL 250gr on the other hand is squirrel killing accurate from all of them.

Motor

Motor, I've got to laugh at this, i.e., how different the "same" (twist, length) barrels are. While mine will shoot RB's pretty well, they shoot T/C Maxi-Balls even better, and get this, Lee Precision REAL's or Improved Minie's not at all well. I guess it's true that each gun is law unto itself.:veryconfu

[bedbugbilly]

Bad Andy . . . while everyone else is arguing whether it will work or not . . . before you fork out the $ for a mold, why don't you try and come up with some .490 balls and try them fist? That way you'll know. Maybe buy a box of the Hornady swaged round balls.

I've been shooting front stuffers for 50 + years but have never tried one of the "new fangled" ones. Personally, they just don't appeal to me but that doesn't "make 'em wrong". The Lee mold will cast good RB but I'd try them first. Try several different patching materials to see what works best in your bore. If you buy a box of 100 balls . . you'll know by the time you're done with the box whether they will work or not. If you can't find any at a LGS . . . put a WTB on this site and maybe someone can help you out. I'd be happy to but I don't have a .490 set of blocks.

Good luck - hope it works for you. The only way you'll know is to try it.

[44man]

RB from my 54 at 50 yards, 5 shots RB. I have hit steel chickens at 200 meters 4 out of 5, off hand.143344 Open sights. My original TC with RB's and Maxi Balls did the same. I have never seen this done with a RB in an inline. Anyone?

[Toymaker]

Don't do anything until you slug the bore. Then take your micrometer to the fabric store. Test different ALL COTTON fabrics by putting an edge in the micrometer and crank it down. REALLY crank it down. Remember, that patch is going to be compressed between the bore and the ball. AND because the rifling is likely shallow there won't be much room. Now, bore diameter minus twice the patch thickness equals your ball diameter. Try and find a fabric that will give you a ball diameter of .490 or .495 - these are common, easy to find sizes for commercial cast RB and RB molds. Beg, borrow or buy some RB of the needed size. Buying isn't bad, they can always be melted down for something else. You can't melt down a mold.
Patch lube is another matter. I use 7:1 water:machinist oil. Machinist oil is water soluble; they use it to cool and lube lathe and millings. It's brown (NOT blue), smells like oil, feels like oil, tastes like oil. Soak a patch strip, wipe out the excess and put it on a flat, non-porous surface to dry. Leaves you with a nice, evenly lubricated strip of patching material.
I'm not much on powder substitutes and don't need the expense of the fancy stuff. Plain old Goex works great. I'd start with some FFFg because it will likely burn cleaner for you. Start at 55 grains and go up in 5 grain increments to 70 grains. (You can go a little higher, or lower. More is not better) Fire a fouling shot and wipe the bore - WIPE, don't scrub - barely damp patch, down and up and out. Wipe between every shot to keep the bore in a consistent condition. Remember, you don't have deep grooves that can take the fouling of a couple of shots. Study your groups; ideally they will be large, get smaller and then expand again. The load with the smallest group is where you want to play.
Powder, Patch, Ball and Lube are your variables. Change ONE THING AT A TIME and watch the group size always picking the load with the smallest group size as the point to start the next change. KEEP NOTES - your memory sucks.
I'll be honest and say that I have seen a few in-line slug throwers that have shot RB equally, or almost equally, well. But the vast majority just wouldn't do it. Good luck to you, and remember - this is supposed to be fun.

[duckey]

Thanks for all the info. I'd very much like to buy a nice traditional BP gun but not in the budget at the moment. I bought the Gray hawk when I was in High School many many years ago, much younger then. Looked at used BP guns and most had the finish around the nipple warn off from use etc, so that's why I went with the stainless option. Love the gun, favorite gun to shoot and hunt with. As far as load data (when I bought it) the man at the store showed directed me what he used to include maxi balls. My TC handbook does not tell me the twist but gives load data (general) for calibers of their BP guns. I'll scrounge up some Goex 2f and mess around and see what works. Thanks

[Maven]

143358Not an argument, bedbugbilly, but a respectful disagreement and discussion.

.44man, Take a look at this pic. Btw, that was 55gr. Diamondback FFg I was using. The RB was actually .492" (RCBS mould). The two groups (different patch thicknesses were shot from a rest using the factory [fiber optic] front sight and a Williams receiver sight. The bbl. was made for Knight by Green Mountain, is 26" long, and has a 1:28" twist.

[44man]

Want a gun that shoots, get a Lyman great plains with a RB twist.
Mavin, not good enough. How is at 100 or 200?

[HARRYMPOPE]

RB from my 54 at 50 yards, 5 shots RB. I have hit steel chickens at 200 meters 4 out of 5, off hand.143344 Open sights. My original TC with RB's and Maxi Balls did the same. I have never seen this done with a RB in an inline. Anyone?

I had an .50 inline that was 1-48 (cut rifling) set up for benchrest that would to that easily.My 1-32 lyman Plains has shot that well with RB at 50 yards.Imagine if i had the "proper" gun i could cut the same hole!

I too have "wallet groups" of 1.5" with my 1-32 lyman at 100 yards.But its not the norm ,2-2.5" or so is if the light is good.beter than i need for offhand or hunting.

[Maven]

I already have a Ly. GPR, .44man and it shoots better than the Knight, but that's no surprise. 100yd.? I was lucky to get those results @ 50yd. Groups open up with >55gr. FFg, and we don't have a 200yd. range. Needless to say, I'm happy with those groups as it took quite a bit of effort to get them. Btw, a .495" (.497" in fact) shoots almost as well.

[HARRYMPOPE]

this was my old mach inline.

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/LINOWW/50%20benchgun/PICT9122_zps668397db.jpg

[Motor]

Maven. Like you said each gun has its own personality. I actually scored a big stash of .490" RB with the sole intention of having my boys and I use them for inexpensive practice and general plinking. None of our Knight rifles would shoot them. 1, Wolverine and 2, LK's

No loss, they went quickly on the sale boards. As did the patches I got with them.

44man, No doubt some of the sabot bullets are tough. I always had trouble with the green ones and quit using them long ago. The Knight sabot bullets work and load good. Power belts are simply awesome. It's funny that people put down the power belts. They are mini balls with a plastic skirt instead of a lead one.

No doubt the OP should just try some RB. If they work, great.

Motor

[44man]

I still think it is the huge expense to find what works. You might in the end but when I shoot 200 balls a day for almost nothing and my revolvers at a dime a shot.
Shotgun primers for inline's cost as much as my total shot. Everything you do will cost more.

[lightman]

I've got a cigar box of .490 round balls cast in an RCBS 490 round ball mold from cable sheathing (98.5% pure) that measure about .493-.494. PM me an address and I'll mail you a dozen or so to try.

[duckey]

lightman

PM on the way. Thanks!