Clean burning powders

[Blackwater]

As an "old timer" to reloading and this site, I've noted a clear affinity of some towards "clean burning" powders and loads. As a long time shooter and reloader, I find this a little curious. Surely, it's not "wrong" in any sense of the word, but as a devotee of accuracy and ever increasing skills, I confess I don't understand this very well. Most of us clean our guns after EVERY use, whether it's really "needed" or not. it's just a really excellent habit to acquire, and is more about PREVENTING problems than it is in dealing with them.

Now having said this, I used to be issued 1,000 rds. of FREE ammo as a pistol team member, and it was the absolute dirtiest, filthiest, most leading stuff I've EVER seen or shot. I believe buffalo chips must have been used as lube, and its accuracy wasn't much to speak of either. It was loaded on automated machines, and the bullets cast as hastily as possible with the only real criteria being whether the bullets produced would still fit the cases. I can't overstate how truly BAD this ammo really was. But hey! It was FREE, so like any good reloader, I shot up every round of it. Well, almost. I did finally get tired of feeding my gun with it, and NEVER shot any matches with it, and eventually wound up giving at least some of it away. it sure sold me on the Lewis Lead Remover now sold by Lyman, though!

What I want to note here is simply that two powders, let's use 700X and Red Dot, may be like "two peas in a pod" in burning rate, and lie right beside each other on most burning rate charts, but they are most definitely NOT "the same," though I often see them and others referred to as just that. I think we really NEED to be more specific in powder matters. With 700X and Red Dot mentioned above, for instance, we often seem to forget that ALL powders burn "cleaner" as pressures go up. They also burn "faster" and yield higher pressures. These pressures can vary significantly, as will their tendencies to burn "clean" or "dirty." If a particular powder burns "dirty" for your loads, that's usually a clue that the load needs to be increased, and even better accuracy usually ensues as well. Really, it's often harder to find really good light loads than it sometimes is to find good full loads, and this factor is at least part of the reason for that. This has been my experience, anyway.

So if you're looking for top accuracy AND in a very light load, you probably need to try a number of smaller 1 lb. cans of several different quick burning propellants and see which tickles your fancy best. This is the way it's always been, and the way it'll likely always be.

And one other point I think needs to be made now that there are many more newbies and not terribly experienced loaders here, is that accuracy is THE great instructor in shooting that there ever has been or ever will be. If you're not loading for accuracy, you're missing one of the greatest benefits of casting and reloading, and not exactly doing yourself much of a favor in the process. With all the time it takes to cast, load and shoot, why not make it pay off bigger and better, and make accuracy your goal from the outset. After all, without accurate bullets and loads, we're not really "practicing," so much as we're just forming "habits," and forming less than good habits really ought to be beneath us.

With the lack of time most of us face, all that really means is just learning how to cast better bullets as we go along, and testing more loads and smaller samplings of newer powders as we go along our path, and the accuracy WILL come, I assure you, both in your loads, and as that progresses, in the level of shooting you are ABLE to do and perceive. After all, practicing with any old ammo that'll go "bang," like those old WC's I was issued, may let you practice your form, but it can't give you a lot of feedback as to just how well you're really doing and how you're progressing. And why NOT spend your time making real progress, when you're already spending the time as is? It really only takes more attention and criticality of our loading and shooting and component and bullet choices to get to where we all really want to be. Just makes sense to me, old timer or not.

[Tatume]

Most of us clean our guns after EVERY use, whether it's really "needed" or not. it's just a really excellent habit to acquire, and is more about PREVENTING problems than it is in dealing with them.

Many more guns have been ruined by cleaning than by shooting. Guns should be cleaned when they need it, and not before. If metal accumulation in the barrel causes a measurable decline in accuracy, clean the barrel. If combustion byproducts cause a decline in reliability (particularly in semiautomatic firearms), clean the gun. Otherwise leave it alone. Habitual cleaning is a very bad habit, one that should be avoided.

[rodsvet]

It has a lot to do with what you use and how you use it. Patching, wiping, and lubricating a firearm does no harm. Continually using harsh chemicals and stainless brushes etc. is not correct and should be avoided unless "softer" methods fail. And as stated above, Find Out Why They Seem To Be Needed. Then adjust. My worthless .02, Rod

[TenTea]

Related...

Brownells is now the main marketer of the Lewis Lead Remover which is a valuable tool for cast bullet shooters, imho.

http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/lead-remover/lewis-lead-remover-prod21587.aspx

[Cherokee]

I agree with "tatume" on the cleaning. "Blackwater" has a very good point. I have always loaded for accuracy, not worrying about clean or dirty powder, looking for what performed best. One thing, I spent so much time bench testing loads for accuracy that I did not get enough practice in on the real stand up, one or two handed shooting use of the loads in my earlier years. Don't forget the practical use of the ammo you are loading.

[mdi]

Well, this old guy cleans his guns after each shooting session. I've read about ruining a gun by "over cleaning" so a bunch of years ago I researched "why". The most prevalent response was the cleaning rod screwing up the muzzle (most of the time this was the only response some fellers could come up with). Some said "harsh chemicals". So, I fixed those complaints by using a cleaning rod guide and I have a pan of my "Ed's Red" solvent/cleaner handy. When I get leading I use my Lewis tool. When I get copper fouling I use a commercial bore cleaner. Normally I'll just clean the barrel as necessary and soak/splash the action of the gun.

I am a life long machinist mechanic that has had to use hand tools to put beans on the table for mebbe 50 years. It is ingrained in me to clean any tool I use and put it in it's place. Never leave a tool dirty or where you finished with it! May sound OCD to some of you, but I knew/know where each tool is and it's condition (usually clean and workable). I use the same thinking with my guns. Use 'em, clean 'em, and put 'em away. I know the condition of my guns, and know they are ready to be used at any time...

I think those that are afraid of "over cleaning" just need to learn more about their guns... Jes my opinion!

[Litl Red 3991]

Cleaning guns doesn't ruin them, stupid people cleaning them can however.

[Scharfschuetze]

Cleaning guns doesn't ruin them, stupid people cleaning them can however.

Amen to that.

Having served under arms for over 40 years and having used firearms "on the job" several times as an LEO and soldier, I just don't get not cleaning your weapon.

There are lots of threads here bemoaning the purchase of guns that take a week or more to get clean enough to shoot. Once finally clean, the poster often finds a ruined bore. Odd that few post about a newly purchased gun being too clean. I do understand the concept of conditioning your bore for cast boolits, but some of the guns I see at the LGS or gun shows make me wonder what the previous owner's bathroom and kitchen looked like.

[bangerjim]

"Cleanliness is next to Godliness"........at least that is what I was taught when I grew up in the Midwest!

I clean after every range use. But since I PC everything, it only takes 2 patches for a perfectly clean shiny bore! Even after 2-300 rounds thru the barrel at mid-loads of ETR7. "7" is the cleanest burning powder I have ever used....light or full loads.....and I have tried a ton of powders!

banger

[Blackwater]

Some good points here, and with so many newbies coming here now, it's good to note HOW to clean a gun, and there's more involved than just wiping it down. With most DA revolvers, for instance, you really need to clean under the ejector star to ensure you CAN close it next time you use it, which MIGHT be in self defense. And you really need to check this after every session. I often shoot 300-350 rds. at a session, so after that much shooting, I think a cleaning is in order with even the best loads. Everything's relative, of course, and many of us won't shoot that much at a single outing, so their needs will be a little different. Still, it's so easy to clean a gun, it doesn't really take a lot of time when you know how, and it lets you be SURE that the next time you pick it up, it'll function just like it's supposed to. Until I got into match shooting, and shooting that grungy ammo I was issued, I really didn't know how to fully do a good job of cleaning. That's the value of competition. You'll learn stuff you're not likely to anywhere else.

[Vann]

A rifle that will only see the range or a slow fire course, wipe it down and keep the rust off.

A pistol or rifle for personal protection or competition, barrels are cheap my life and scores are worth more. Plus having complete faith in functionality is priceless.

[dragon813gt]

I don't care about how clean a powder is. As long as the shots are accurate that's all that counts. A quick wipe down w/ Ballistol is what they all get after being used. A patch and jag down the bore if needed, again w/ Ballistol. I can't put them away dirty. But I don't scrub them down to make them look brand new again. If you keep up w/ the cleaning they only need a minimal amount each time.

[murf205]

I have a Browning BAR that came to me as a 30-06 and the previous owner was a "wipe it down and leave the bore alone" guy. When I got it you could barely see through the barrel for the rust. I soaked the bore in everything I had but the pits were so bad that a patch left about as much material inside as what came out. Fortunately, Jesse at Reboring by JES, was able to clean up the rusted hole(it was really not a barrel anymore) and cut the most gorgeous 338/06 barrel you've ever seen from it. It shoots like a dream with 250 Hornady round nose J bullets and you better believe that barrel gets at least the powder fouling patched out and a light coat of oil before I put it in the safe. There is no need to be paranoid and scrub the barrel till you ruin it, but after seeing what this rifle was subjected to, it made a believer out of me. It does take about 2 rounds down range to get this rifle(and most other ones) to return to zero when I start from a clean barrel. My .02 cents worth.
Murf

[Blackwater]

That's exactly why I clean mine, Murf. Seen too many people get shocked when they go to the closet or whatever and pull out "ol' Betsy." I just REFUSE to let that happen to mine, but then, I've always stolen whatever time it took to clean mine. When you know how, it's not a lengthy task at all, and no gun I've ever owned has been allowed to rust due to this. Good, fresh coats of grease on the outside, and good, clingy lubes inside, lightly coated but plenty effective, and I'm shooting some guns that are over 40 years old now, so there's something to it, I think.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Clean them once a year, Good old hoppe's #9 wet patch then run clean patch until dry not clean, use 30 Non-det. oil soaked patch and stop. Next deer season run a few clean patches and start to check sight-in.

[Bullwolf]

Clean Burning powders, often an oxymoron.

Best example of this I can give was when my lack of proper note keeping allowed me to lose my old 12 gauge trap load bushing number. Due to the increasing cost of lead shot, and powder availability it had been quite a while since I'd last loaded for shotguns.

This wouldn't have been as much of a problem, if I hadn't bought a random assortment of extra powder bushings for a few other loads I was developing and some added versatility using other powders with my MEC press.

Pulled out my trusty Lyman shot shell handbook (third edition) and took a look at many of my underlined and highlighted loads.

I had a pretty good idea of my load range, and I could see the what weight the bushings I had on hand would drop.

So I loaded up an assortment of 1/18 ounce 12 gauge shells with charges from 14.8 to 21.6 grains of Red Dot. Somewhere in there was my trusty old Red Dot load.

After firing the lower (and slower) end Red Dot loads, I found a LOT of unburnt powder kernels left behind in the barrel of my over and under. The loads on the higher end burned remarkably clean however leaving behind a nearly spotless barrel tube.

For the record, I settled on a 12 gauge load of 18 grains of Red Dot with an ounce and 1/8 of shot.

As others have said before, for a powder to truly burn clean many require a specific pressure level. It's unfair to condemn a powder like Unique because you've only loaded it at 38 Special Wad Cutter level loads, or at cowboy 45 Colt levels. Many powders (such as Unique, and W231 for example) will start to burn cleaner as the pressure level increases.

Even some of the really fast burning powders - like Red Dot , won't give a clean burn if the pressure level is low enough. In these days of somewhat spotty powder availability, I'm much more concerned about finding any powder on the shelf in an applicable burning rate, than a powders perceived cleanliness.

My old favorite - Bullseye, works across a wide variety of applications, from low to higher pressure. It might not be the cleanest burning powder in every application, but this never really bothered me as it is often the most accurate.

I don't mind any of that, and I actually enjoy the smell of burning Alox and Bullseye.

Since I don't shoot while wearing white cotton gloves, and was taught at an early age to always clean my firearms after use.



- Bullwolf

[Rodfac]

Clean to me means the gun will function as it was designed, maintains the accuracy that was built into it, and prevent rust. Those of us trained in the military know that a post shooting inspection is essential to ensure reliability accuracy, and the prevention of rust. To accomplish the above, use tools and materials recommend by the manufacturer, don't damage the chamber or barrel crown, and your good to go.

With respect to dirty burning powder, some are worse than others. Unique has a unique reputation as flaming dirt. It matters not to me, in my quest for accuracy and a predetermined level of velocity. Cleaning only takes a few minutes even with the worst of powders.

For those that want pristine, showplace guns, I say more power to them. But I'm a shooter first and foremost, and accuracy is what I'm looking for. Rod

[dudel]

Cleaning guns doesn't ruin them, stupid people cleaning them can however.

+1 It's just an excuse for not cleaning your gun. Like claiming that wiping you *** causes hemorrhoids.


Wrong tools, wrong process, wrong chemicals can ruin a gun barrel; but as they say, with enough determination, you can break anything.

I fail to see how a boresnake is going to harm a barrel.

Accuracy depends on consistency. The only way to have a consistent barrel is to clean it. My $.02 YMMV

[bedbugbilly]

Almost sounds to me like there is a "generational" thing here.

I'm older - 62. I've been shooting for over 50 years. As I kid, I was taught to keep my firearms cleaned and oiled . . . and I'e been doing it for the length of time I've been shooting. When I was young, I spent a lot of time hunting in southern MI. The weather here demanded that you cleaned your firearm as soon as you got home - if not - rust was a sure thing. We hunted in sunny weather, snowy weather, rainy weather, etc. The same went for overtime we shot for un - whether it be a shotgun, rifle or pistol. That training also followed over to my profession - my tools were kept clean.

As far as "dirty powder" . . . I'm more interested in that the powder "performs". I get a kick out of "smokeless" shooters who worry about "clean powders". I have shot BP for 50 + years out of just about everything - rifle, shotgun, smoothbore, pistol . . . and full size artillery. To "not clean" means "rust" . . a simple fact.

I wasn't in the military . . . but those that were trained me to shoot when I was a kid . . and that training carried over . . . "keep your weapon clean".

If a person doesn't believe in cleaning more than once a year or "as needed" . . . then fine. It's their firearm. They certainly have the right to treat it however they wish. Me . . . I'll keep mine clean. I worked too hard for the money to buy them not to do it "my way". Let's face it . . . some people buy a new car and never wash it . . . or change the oil either. That's their right . . . but like everything in life . . . there are more than one way to do things.

[Texantothecore]

Being a bp shooter it mystifies me why you would not clean a gun after shooting. Mine could be used for surgical procedures after cleaning (After removing the heavy oil).

Bp is much easier to remove than modern powder, I will admit that, but soap and water followed by oil will keep a gun running for a lifetime.

If cared for a gun will last 200 years, even with corrosive primers.

[murf205]

Clean them once a year, Good old hoppe's #9 wet patch then run clean patch until dry not clean, use 30 Non-det. oil soaked patch and stop. Next deer season run a few clean patches and start to check sight-in.

Teddy, I have found an oil for the barrels that is super easy to clean out and protects really well to boot. It's Singer sewing machine oil. I found it at Wal-Mart and if it has any odor, I can't detect it.
On the topic of cleaner burning powders, kudos to the industry for developing them and applying that technology to older powders as well. The need for cleaner powders came from the military applications(remember the first m-16's & their problems) where newer weapons systems are capable of rates of fire that were unheard in a few years ago. In my experience, the new(or should I say more recently manufactured) Unique and 2400 are a LOT cleaner burning that previous lots of the same, especially at less than maximumpressures. Not clean as moms kitchen, but a lot better than they used to be.
Murf