44 mag. 1-38 twist ?

[45-70marlin]

I need to throw a question out there. My buddy says the 1-38 twist in 44mag. will not stablize a bullet 240gr. and over very well. He had a ruger bolt gun in 44 mag. and it was not very accurate with the heaver bullets. He wanted to buy a new marlin 1894 in 44mag. but didnt because of the twist in 1-38. Anyone out there have good luck with the 1-38 twist with the heavy bullets? He has a 444 in a H&R single shot that has a 1-20 twist that does real good with the heavy bullets. Thanks for your input.

[Outpost75]

I have Marlin 1894S rifles in .44-40 and .44 Mag. They both shoot 240-250 grain lead bullets just fine.

The .44 Mag also shoots the 300-grain Federal factory load well. No issues.

[MarkP]

I have a Rem 788 in 44 Mag with 1:38" it shoots 240 gr & 265 gr jacketed just fine also shot cast 310 gr WFN out to 100 yds with no signs of key holing.

[longbow]

I've got one with 1:38" twist microgroove that shoots just fine with up to 270 gr. boolits. I tried a 300 gr. RNFP that would not stabilize past about 75 yards and keyholed by 100 yards and so did Hornady 300 gr. bullets . Never tried the WNFP or Lee 300/310 gr. styles though.

Anyway, 240 gr. to 265 gr. should be no problem in bullets or boolits, beyond that boolit shape seems to play a part in whether it will stabilize or not. Oh, and RanchDog claimed his 300 gr. boolits with wide meplate remained stable to 300 yards so again wide meplat design. That boolit has a good reputation so if you are looking at heavy I'd try that one.

Longbow

[dubber123]

I have had very good accuracy with 240's and 270's to at least 100 yds. with mine. All were driven at max velocity.

[45-70marlin]

Long Bow, you say[ boolit shape seems to play a part] How so? what shape seems to be better? OutPost, are they rifles made by remington? My buddy is also following this post. This is interesting info. Thanks all.

[Outpost75]

My Marlins are JMs from the 1990s. Critical factor is ratio of bullet length to diameter.
Twist in calibers times bullet length in calibers equals 150, Greenhill Rule is good approximation for blunt, flatnosed bullets.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Bullet shape... Outpost75 stated it well. The longer a bullet is the more spin it needs. This can be accomplished with a faster rifling twist or more bullet speed. So long pointy nosed bullet that weighs 280 grains needs a faster rotational spin to remain stabile (nose first without wobble) at any range than lets say a very blunt nosed (LBT type) 280 grainer of the same caliber made of the same material.
That is why larger caliber rifles are made. If you need a 300 grainer at 200 yards to get the job done try a caliber 444 Marlin (same diameter) or a 45-70. Fatter bullets of the same weight need less rotational spin at the same range as they are still stabile out there at impact distance.
That is the very reason a caliber 50 (50 Alaskan) lever rifle looks very interesting. Even fired at 50-70 velocity a 450 grainer chugging along at a modest 1350 fps from a slow twist barrel will be stabile as far as my over 60 eye balls can still place the front sight accurately in real hunting conditions. Short and fat is a cast boolit shooters delight for easily reached stability.
Mike in Peru

[44man]

Never had any luck with the Marlin past 50 yards with any boolit. I would never shoot at a deer past about 65 yards. Never had a key hole but I never knew where a boolit would hit. I was lucky a few times with a few close at 100 but that was it. Marlin changed the .444 to 1 in 20 but when I called, they sent me the Greenhill pages, well Greenhill does not work.
The gun might handle a 200 gr or RB. If you can't spin up a boolit in a 1 in 38" .444, how can you do it in the little .44?

[tja6435]

Was it a 77/44 Ruger bolt gun? The twist is 1:20 with these rifles

[pietro]

.

FWIW:

The 240gr boolit isn't considered a heavy boolit load in the .44 Remington Magnum, it's the normal, design standard, used in factory loads.

Under 240gr (like 180gr) are considered light boolit loads; over 240gr (like 265gr & 300gr) are consider heavy boolit loads.

My Marlin Model 1894P (.44mag, 16" ported bbl) shoots 240gr factory j-word boolits like a house afire.

I would consider that the OP's friend's rifle might need the muzzle's crown, and/or rifling at the muzzle, needing a hard look.




.

[45-70marlin]

It was a Ruger 77/44. He could not get it to shoot any bullet good. From what I am seeing here the Marlin for the most part will shoot the 240 gr. and up bullets. 44Man, how old is your marlin 44mag.?

[Outpost75]

It is also necessary to understand what constitutes a realistic accuracy standard for a lever action rifle firing full power hunting ammunition. My .44 Magnum and .44-40 Marlins will produce 3-inch, TEN shot groups at 100 yards with my hunting loads, using a receiver peep sight or low powered hunting scope. I consider that adequate performance for a utility rifle. I'm not taking it to Camp Perry or attempting 200-yards at game with it. I see 150 yards as a practical limit, on rare occasions.

If hunting someplace where shots over 150 yards are the norm, rather than the rare exception, I have several bolt action .30-'06s suited for that work. But most of my hunting these says is in dense forest and brushy edges of farm fields less than 40 acres. Hence the levers.

[longbow]

I think it has been covered but boolit shape does come into play. The shorter and fatter the better with slow twist so a very large meplat 300 gr. boolit may well work. I only tried an RNFP boolit and factory Hornady "J" bullet both of 300 grs. and neither of those would stabilize past about 75 yards. Good to 50 yards or so then groups opened up and by 100 yards I had keyholes.

The RanchDog boolit is a short fat RFNP with wide meplat and RanchDog claimed if remained stable to 300 yards. I believe him. Another fellow told me he shot a 300 gr. WNFP also with very large meplat and he also claimed good accuracy at longer ranges if driven to max. velocity.

If you can find a RanchDog mould I would go with that. NOE was making a clone but I can't recall if it was 265 gr. or 300 gr. but either way it is a good boolit.

If in doubt try buying some pre-cast boolits of various designs and weights. Beartooth bullets should have what you need.

Now of equal or even more importance is fit to bore. My Marlin has a typical "fat" bore and needs boolits of at least 0.432". If smaller, accuracy is poor and leading happens. So, even if the boolit design is good, if fit is poor then you get gas cutting and poor accuracy along with leading.

I started out my .44 life with a Lyman 429421 classic Elmer Keith design and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it in my Marlin. Well, it cast at 0.429" so undersize for my 0.4315" groove diameter. As soon as I fattened up boolits, I got good accuracy.

Know your groove diameter and make sure your mould casts at least 0.002" over then size if you want to at least 0.001" over. My gun likes fat boolits and I shoot up to 0.434" with good results.

Longbow

[hpdrifter]

that's one reason I will not buy one. It may or may not.

[snowwolfe]

I just don't understand why the slow rate of twist. What purpose does it serve?

[longbow]

My suspicion is that it is a leftover from the days of .44-40 and light boolits. No other good reason I can think of anyway.

I am guessing Marlin figured people would shoot the same relatively lightweight handgun boolits they were loading for handguns and what factory loads came with. Whoda thunk someone might want to load heavier boolits? A faster twist wouldn't have hurt for light boolits and would have made the guns more versatile for heavier boolits but look who I am preaching to... Marlin should have foreseen this or at least corrected for it.

Longbow

[Scharfschuetze]

I just don't understand why the slow rate of twist. What purpose does it serve?

I've always been at a loss for the 1 in 38" twist in Marlins (and Winchesters?). After all, were not the Smith & Wesson Model 29 revolvers, first introduced in 1955, equipped with 1 in 18 3/4" twist barrels? I would have thought that that would have set the standard for the calibre.

[Lonegun1894]

I have a H&R Handi-rifle with a 1:38" twist. It didn't shoot worth beans til I quit sizing to .430" cause it slugs at .4325". Now that I size to .434", and got lucky and found a Lyman 429421 that casts at .435" and 268grs, it does a consistent 2.5-3" average with irons at 100 yds. And I personally like the slow twist cause it allows me to use softer lead for expansion, while not giving me any leading.

[45-70marlin]

Longbow, I thought the 240gr. was the first loading of the 44mag.

[bikerbeans]

I have a 1971 marlin 444s with 1:38 twist MG barrel. My hunting load is a custom 341g jacketed FN that I launch at 1,860 fps. Load is 1 to 2 MOA at 100 yards depending on how well I do my part.

I also have a 336-445 SM with a 1:38 twist MG barrel. I am still working up a load but i have shot about 2MOA at 100 yards with a 310g LWNGC at 1,750 fps.

With the longer and heavier bullets and 1:38 twist, velocity is your friend.

BB

[Char-Gar]

If memory serves me correct, the 1-38 twist was carried over from the 44-40 lever guns. I have an early Marlin MG in 44 Magnum and it shoots 240 - 250 grain bullets just fine. As previously noted, bullet design is important as well as velocity.

Being a conservative guy, I shoot old RCBS 235 grain gas checked bullets (this mold is no longer made) over 10 grains of Unique. I run the bullets through a .432 sizer to lube, otherwise they are unsized casting about .431. The group size is as good as I can shoot with such a rifle.

[45-70marlin]

Well, my buddy went and bought a Henry big boy 44mag. It was $100.00 more than the Marlin but he seemed to like it better. He took it to the range and it surprised him how well it shot. he shot a 220 gr. bullet jacketed, and the RCBS 429-240-SIL. bullet. This bullet comes out to 248gr. for him, both shot the same. At 25 yards they did about 1 hole group. he then shot at the backstop that is the side of large hill 125yds off and hit all he aimed at like cans and small gravel stones. The Henry has a 1-38 twist in it. So it looks like the 1-38 twist is ok if the gun is made right. Thanks all for your interesting input on this subject. By the way, it was all your input that convinced him to buy the Henry.

[44man]

It was a Ruger 77/44. He could not get it to shoot any bullet good. From what I am seeing here the Marlin for the most part will shoot the 240 gr. and up bullets. 44Man, how old is your marlin 44mag.?
Mine was fairly recent, beautiful little gun until shooting. I sold it to jack Huntington to convert to another caliber. Not Remlin though. Still a Marlin. It is a gun I will stay away from unless the twist is 1 in 20".

[45-70marlin]

Thats toobad 44man, you spent good money on that gun then to have it shoot crappy. If you called Marlin when you had it, you think they would have fix it? I like Marlin guns, had good luck with all I had. None were Remlins though.

[MT Chambers]

My Marlin 1894 shoots bullets to 320 grain out to 100 yds. very well!

[W.R.Buchanan]

A lot of hoopla on this subject so I might as well add mine.

I Have a Marlin 1894CB with a 24" bbl.

The gun has a Lyman 66LA on it along with an XS post front sight with the white line.

I just shot this gun at Short Range Silhouette last Saturday and hit 18/40 which was the first time I had used this gun for this shoot. This was also an old batch of smaller boolits I had loaded for my SBH Bisley.

I shot 429244 gc's in it with 22.0 gr of H110. These boolits were 265 gr as cast out of WW. I sized them at .432 but they were only getting lubed at that size. I now have a Mihec mould that drops the same boolit at .434+ so they will size. My Groove dia.is .431 which is nominal for .44 Magnum rifle barrels. IE: .431+/-.002 per SAMMI.

As stated above 1:38 twist is a hold over from the .44-40 cartridge, but there is another consideration which is pressure. The Marlin action is supposedly good to just below 50K psi Max, with a max recommended of 43,500 psi. Normal .44 mag factory loads are around 35K psi when fired from revolvers with gas leaks at the cylinder/barrel junction and a 4-8" bbl. Normally Revolvers also have .429 grooves and 1:20 barrels.

My rifle has a barrel that is 4 times longer! Thus the action must contain that pressure for 4 times longer than a 6" revolver does and with no gas leak off either. So pressure spikes are a valid consideration, and especially with Heavy Jacketed Bullet Loads which pressures will always be higher with.

As a result engineers decided on a looser Groove dia. and slow twist rate to insure pressures don't go out the roof especially with guys handloading the .44 to some pretty impressive levels thinking it says .45-70 on the barrel.

Rugers 77/44 is a much stronger gun IE;M77 bolt action. Therefore Ruger decided to go with a tighter Groove Dia. and faster twist. However the Ruger Magazine will only allow an OAL of 1.610 so the use of much longer larger boolits is not possible other than by single loading.

From What Brian Pearce stated in his article about the 77/44 and 77/357 rifles, they require a substantial Barrel Break In procedure of at least 50 rounds to obtain best accuracy. After this break in both guns shot 3/4" groups at 75 yards with Iron Sights and with his sons shooting.(they are really good so you probably won't duplicate their efforts.)

If you go to Beartooth Bullets website there is a good article on the home page about 250 gr boolits in the .44 mag. That is what it was designed to shoot and when you consider that the .44 Magnum has taken every animal on earth with these boolits in a Revolver, there seems little to be gained by shooting 300+gr boolits in a rifle. And considering that it is common knowledge that a Keith boolit will go clean thru an Elk at 900 fps it seems pointless to go to heavier boolits unless your intended targets are Pick Ups or large Sedans.

Garrett Cartridges actually has a load with 340 gr LBT boolits that is a real butt kicker but require some modification to the gun so that it will feed them. These should kill Ford F150's easily.

But if you are going to shoot those why not break out the .45-70? Really,,, you don't want to be under gunned!

A 250 gr boolit at 1600 fps is a pretty formidable projectile. Much more powerful than from a Revolver.

Also it shouy;d be noted that some of these guns are better than others,,, Mine Key Holed Factory 240 gr FMJ's at 50 feet! out of the box which was not what I was looking for at all. However with better fitting boolits and loads I have no problem doing 2" groups at 50 yards with it.(iron sights) I also had no problem hitting Steel Turkeys at 150 meters off a Trigger Stick so the accuracy is sufficient for any intended purpose, and at 150M I was at +6 MOA above my mechanical zero of 100 yards.

YMMV! but I would suggest that if you take these guns for what they are worth, and not expect sub MOA accuracy, you will find they are quite useful in their own right.

Not every gun has to have one hole accuracy,,, in fact, most don't.

Randy

[MtGun44]

Brian Pierce has been trying to get the levergun folks to stop this foolishness for many years. A much faster twist
will NOT hurt a thing and is needed for the heavier bullets and boolits. So far the knuckleheads in charge haven't
been able to change.

[longbow]

You are right the 240 gr. was the first for .44 mag. but the .44-40 was loaded with lighter boolits. This is just me speculating that Marlin figured that with the 1:38" twist and .44 mag. velocity with the 240 gr. bullet that it would stabilize, and so it does, but heavier bullets/boolits do not necessarily.

I really do not know why they wouldn't have gone with a faster twist and a longer throat so a guy could at least load heavier boolits seated out some and get similar performance to much larger BP cartridges.

A 350 gr. boolit in the .44 mag in a rifle is not unreasonable. I guess if they gave the gun a longer throat to handle heavier boolits then it might not perform well with handgun bullets but then again, why on earth are the rifle barrel specs so much different than the .44 mag handgun?

Also, look what they did to the 444 Marlin! It was introduced to be a short range woods cartridge kind of like a modern .45-70 except they crippled it with a short throat, slow twist and handgun bullets. Why!?! The 444 would easily handle a 400 gr. bullet if it had the twist and throat to accommodate it. No good reason they saddled that one with handgun bullets.

What's a guy to do?

Longbow

[JesterGrin_1]

Been there done that and threw away the T shirt lol. I would never spend another penny on a Marlin .44 Mag unless I purchased the rifle cheap to resell. I would even say since I do reload I would not waste the time to fire one round through one loaded by myself and waste the primer and powder and gosh forbid the lead. :)

Be that as it may I would however highly suggest a JM Marlin in .357 Magnum or the Marlin 1895 45-70 Governments. Great Shooters. :) or to say the ones I have played with. :)

[Bjornb]

Check out this Castpics article written by our own Beagle. He ended up trading his Marlin for an S&W M94 with a 1:26 twist and was happy with the results.:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.44%20Magnum%20Rifle.pdf

I recently picked up an abused Marlin 1894 and shipped it to Goodsteel for a similar rebarreling.

[Rustyleee]

When the 77/44 was first introduced it came with a 1:38 twist. Ruger stopped making them for a while, then reintroduced it with the current 1:20 twist.
Has anyone ever slugged the barrel on a 77/44? I know the specs call for a .44 rifle to be around .432 but in my experience Ruger have generally has smallish bores anyway.

[44man]

Someone a while back determined that with the added velocity of the rifle, the slowest twist should be 1 in 25".
I have many lists of every caliber twist rates, all figured by Greenhill and all are wrong. That formula should go away. Some made it work by changing figures entered to match what they shot.
IT DOES NOT WORK! It was made for BP cannons.
Most Marlins work so why did they screw up the .44? I blame it on some pencil pusher that never shot a gun.

[MBTcustom]

^^^^^^^^truth^^^^^^^^
All of it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Brian Pierce has been trying to get the levergun folks to stop this foolishness for many years. A much faster twist
will NOT hurt a thing and is needed for the heavier bullets and boolits. So far the knuckleheads in charge haven'tbeen able to change.

I ask him every year at the Show if he has gotten thru to those same knuckle heads. He only shakes his head at me.

He has a David Clay Custom Stainless 1894 takedown 44 Mag with a 1:16 twist barrel. The Lifter has also been altered so the gun will feed rounds up to 1.750 long. It is a pretty nice example of a Marlin. He paid a bunch for it !!!. It shoots real well and is under 1" at 75 yards.

Ashley Emerson of XS Sights has a similar gun to Brian's except it is blued and I don't remember if its a take down. It has a fast twist barrel and was built to shoot the Garrett 330 gr loads which are advertised at 1400 fps from a 8" barrel. That's more like 1800 fps in a 20" barrel. I shoot 325 gr boolits out of my 26" barrel 45-70 at speeds slower than that .

These are formidable guns even with 250 gr boolits. With 330 gr boolits they are real **** kickers which I personally don't need. For my uses with lighter boolits the accuracy is acceptable. For many to expect one hole accuracy from these generic guns is asking a bit much IMHO. At the ranges these guns are capable of 2" at 50 yards will still hit the Bullseye at 150 or 200 and with enough force to take down most anything.

Randy

Hopefully someone at Marlin will jump off the cliff and change the barrels to a more proper specification. Until then we will have to either use what we've got, or build custom guns.

[Hickory]

Does anyone know what the rate of twist is in a Rossi 44 mag levergun?

[Lonegun1894]

Hickory,
Rossi 92s are 1:30" twist regardless of caliber. I have a couple and love them, but then again, I'm one of the oddballs who is happy with a 270gr or lighter boolit and twist in the 1:30" to 1:38" range. So they work great for me.

[Lonegun1894]

Won't let me add this to my previous post. For what it's worth, I have used a 335gr Lyman 457122HP sized to .454" in my .45 Colt Rossi just to see if it would stabilize, and it was stable to 200yds (as far as I tried it), but I use a RCBS 270gr SAA in it. My .44 Mag Rossi 92 does great with a 268gr Lyman 429421 sized .434" and is also stable to at least 200yds. My Rossi .357 firing a 158gr SWC remained stable out to 500 yards, but drop gave me a lot of trouble and my groups weren't anything to brag about, but there was no key-holing evident on the target.

[JesterGrin_1]

I ask him every year at the Show if he has gotten thru to those same knuckle heads. He only shakes his head at me.

He has a David Clay Custom Stainless 1894 takedown 44 Mag with a 1:16 twist barrel. The Lifter has also been altered so the gun will feed rounds up to 1.750 long. It is a pretty nice example of a Marlin. He paid a bunch for it !!!. It shoots real well and is under 1" at 75 yards.

Ashley Emerson of XS Sights has a similar gun to Brian's except it is blued and I don't remember if its a take down. It has a fast twist barrel and was built to shoot the Garrett 330 gr loads which are advertised at 1400 fps from a 8" barrel. That's more like 1800 fps in a 20" barrel. I shoot 325 gr boolits out of my 26" barrel 45-70 at speeds slower than that .

These are formidable guns even with 250 gr boolits. With 330 gr boolits they are real **** kickers which I personally don't need. For my uses with lighter boolits the accuracy is acceptable. For many to expect one hole accuracy from these generic guns is asking a bit much IMHO. At the ranges these guns are capable of 2" at 50 yards will still hit the Bullseye at 150 or 200 and with enough force to take down most anything.

Randy

Hopefully someone at Marlin will jump off the cliff and change the barrels to a more proper specification. Until then we will have to either use what we've got, or build custom guns.

I simply went around this little .44 Mag problem and picked up a JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government and the accuracy at least for myself of which is under 1 MOA at 100 yards is simply astounding. :)

I do have a few threads I wrote on the JM Marlin 1894 SS in .44 Mag when I was attempting to find hunting loads for it with the help of 44 Man. And believe it or not the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC was one of my more accurate boolits in the rifle with a very healthy dose of W-296. But still the best I could do is right at 2 3/4" groups at 100 yards with a scope but they were not consistent. I did not find that the rifle really kicked all that much. One does have to remember after all the .44 Mag is a pistol round that is being shot out of a rifle. :)

But again I gave up on the Marlin .44 Mag and purchased a JM Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 Government of which has proven to be one heck of a hunting rifle. :)

[44man]

i am happy with the .44 revolver with 1 in 20" but now we have the BFR .44 with a 1 in 16".
I am still waiting for results. I wish they had longer barrels.

[TXGunNut]

Great thread! Have always wondered about the 1:38 44 Mag rifles. Knowing the history helps...sort of. Seems the slow twist has outlived it's usefulness and we need to move on. Pressure issues with some factory ammo is a bit troublesome, suspect we're stuck with slower twists until that's worked out.

[Shuz]

FWIW--I've had 2/ea Marlin 1894's in .44 mag down thru the years. Both had 1:38" twists. Neither one would shoot as well as my Winnie Trapper with it's 1:16" twist. I currently own 2/ea Marlin 444's. One is a 444S and has a 1:38" twist, and the other is a 444XLR and has a 1:16" twist. The XLR outshoots the 444S hands down, so now the 444S is up for sale! I love Marlin rifles, but not .44 caliber with 1:38" twists!

[MBTcustom]

Throughout the firearm industry/history there are those who have experience with a calculator, and there are those who have experience with making groups on paper. One has groups, and the other has calculations of what should work. Which one you listen to will determine your level of success. Marlin listened to the book smart but rifle stupid people who think Greenhill works, and they have made rifles that shoot 44mag just OK, for half a century. Ruger did too with their 44 carbine, but got wise when they reintroduced it on the Mini14 platform with a faster twist. Winchester biffed it first as well, but now you can buy their Classic 94 in 44 Mag with a fast twist barrel.
Remington is just plain ignorant because they are currently retooling the 1894 line (they said it was shocking that good rifles could actually be made on the worn out equipment they got from Marlin) and they are planning on making them with the original 1-38 twist rate.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:[smilie=b:
It's a perfect time to pull their head from their nether orifice and make the 1894 what it always should have been, but noooooooooo. They're just going to fall into the same old trench, making things exactly wrong. Not a brain in the whole mess of them. Gun people are sheep.
It just doesn't make any sense. Why would they make the 45-70 with 1-20 twist barrels, make the 357 in 1-16, and think that 44 should be 1-38?!?!?!?!?!?
Dipweeds.

357 mag 1894:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894centerfire/1894CSS.asp
45-70 1895:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895GBL.asp
44 mag 1894:
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894.asp

Somebody out there needs a clown nose and Bozo shoes.

[TXGunNut]

I diddled with the Greenhill formula for several hours one weekend and thought I figured out how to modify it to work with CB's. I adjusted "C" to give an answer that agreed with my observations but as we all know a calculator is no match for a rifle and some range time.

[44man]

I diddled with the Greenhill formula for several hours one weekend and thought I figured out how to modify it to work with CB's. I adjusted "C" to give an answer that agreed with my observations but as we all know a calculator is no match for a rifle and some range time.
Yep, change things and you can make it fit what you shoot. But E=MC squared is final.

[herbert buckland]

My experience with fast twist for short bullets has shown me fast twists just will not give me good accuracy ;EG 1 in 16 twist 44 Rusian Ami Sports Spencer had to go to very high velocity before accuracy started to show if I used a longer bullet accuracy started to improve,I re-barrelled it to a 1 in 22 twist but still can not get the accuracy of my original Winchester 1 in 36 twist rifles,had the same problem with a 1in @0 twist 56-50 AS Spencer ,no accuracy with short 350gr bullets started to come good with longer 400gr bullets and was a tack driver with 450gr bullets but the OAL needed for the Spencer cartridge to feed is critical for feeding in the Spencer and the 450gr bullet just took up too powder room so I re-barrelled it to a 1in 36 twist and now get very good accuracy with lighter bullets .I have found if I go by one of the formulars used for BP I can save a lot of lead and powder making loads that work but even these can be improved greatly by load development and trigger time.My experience with fast twist an short fat bullets has proved to me at least that this is a bad idear ,especially if the the cartridge is to go in a rifle that OAL cartridge length is critical

[TXGunNut]

Yep, change things and you can make it fit what you shoot. But E=MC squared is final.

Agreed, the Greenhill Formula is far from an absolute but the guy who came up with it was a lot smarter than I am. I think if he were around today he could whip out his slide rule and come up with the correct factor to use for our boolits. Seems to me I used 120 or 125 but my head hurts to think about it so I won't.
Herbert has a good point as well, I converted a T/C percussion rifle from 45 cal to 54. My research told me to go with a very slow twist if I wanted to shoot balls and I did, so I did. That was before I started pouring lead. Just occurred to me that I might be able to have a little fun with that original barrel if I could find the right mould.....

[44man]

Agreed, the Greenhill Formula is far from an absolute but the guy who came up with it was a lot smarter than I am. I think if he were around today he could whip out his slide rule and come up with the correct factor to use for our boolits. Seems to me I used 120 or 125 but my head hurts to think about it so I won't.
Herbert has a good point as well, I converted a T/C percussion rifle from 45 cal to 54. My research told me to go with a very slow twist if I wanted to shoot balls and I did, so I did. That was before I started pouring lead. Just occurred to me that I might be able to have a little fun with that original barrel if I could find the right mould.....
I don't remember my .54 twist but it is between 1 in 60 and 66. RB of course. Deadly at 200 meters.
BP needs are so different because velocity is very limited. Adding more powder in some will actually slow the velocity. My friend added powder in his Sharps, 34" barrel and compressed in stages until he got 90 gr in the case. They were way slower then 65 gr. The powder just added to boolit weight and much left the long barrel without burning.
We tried Pyrodex with over loads and got plugs blown out to burn in the grass. Looked like Roman candles coming out.
Now I shot BPCR for a long time with a 45-70 with a 1 in 18" twist. Still too slow for the heavy boolits and 500 gr was about right. Browning! The hunting version was 1 in 20" and worked best with around 300 to 350 gr bullets.
Now I shoot the BFR 45-70 with a 1 in 14" rate and it will shoot a huge range of boolits from 300 to 448 gr and will out shoot every rifle to 500 meters. My best group was 2-1/2" at 500.
I hate slow twists for boolits, too many times you just can't get to RPM's. If spin is too fast you can reduce but over spin is only bad at close ranges.
I always said the Marlin .44 was made for a RB.
Anyway to even bring in BP throws the switch the wrong way.

[44man]

I have read a few hundred formulas for twist. Not a single one compares to what we find from actual shooting. Seems all lean to Greenhill and BP.
For revolvers, the most accurate are the BFR's with faster rates. The 475 is 1 in 15" as are the .500's, The DE is 1 in 18" for the .44 and the .44 revolver is 1 in 16".
I think they have it figured out. No other maker has it right. S&W was close in the 29's with 1 in 18-3/4" for the .44. Never seen one that did not shoot. Freedom did great up to the .44 but when they went to larger, they slowed twist, mainly because heavy boolits did not fit.

[Outpost75]

As good as any: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule

[6pt-sika]

Over the last 15 years I've owned a pair of Marlin 336-44 rifles , that's a plain old 336 action Marlin chambered for the 44 MAG . Only made these from about 1963-1967 or 68 . Anyway they were ALL Micro Groove and 1-38" . While I had the second one I had Mountain Molds cut me a 432-325GC mold for the 444's . After seeing it do very well in the 444 Micro Groove 1-38" barrels I tried it in the 336-44 and got groups at 100 yards using a 3x scope in the 1.5" to 2.5" range . Now with that being said I was pushing the bullets with a good stout load of H-110 and at 100 yards there was an ever so slight shadow on the bullet holes . Makes me think the load for a 44 MAG in the 1-38 barrels was right on the ragged edge of stabilization at 100 yards .

As to the 1-38" Micro barrels in the 444 Marlin I've owned somewhere around 26 of them over the last 15 years and still have a pair . Anyway I have had 5 molds cut for them that are 375 grains and they did very nicely . However with my WW alloy I needed to water quench so the skin of the bullet was tougher and would grip the rifling a touch better(but that's nothing new as I water quench ALL bullets over 315 grains cast from WW's for use in these 1-38 barrels) , anyway I got all of those molds in the Micro barrels to shoot well enough for hunting use out to 100-150 yards and have used three of them to kill deer or bear already .

[Ramjet-SS]

Henry Big Boy Carbine 1:38 shoots 310 grain with great accuracy upper end hand loads.

Keep in mind a load in a 1:20 or faster will run a higher pressure than the same load in a 1:38 so start low work up.

[44man]

The key is "upper end loads." You run out of powder capacity with the .44 but you also can with the .444 and marlin got so many complaints, they changed the rifling. Needs a light boolit shot fast for both.
Pressure difference between twists is nil.
I worked for a few years with the .44 with much cussing so I called Marlin to see if I could get a 20" twist. I was asked if the gun was still under warranty??? WHAT IS THAT?? You can be the third or fourth owner of a Ruger and get it fixed. But Marlin was 2 years.
Darn, a guy brought a Mossberg here that he plain lost a part when he took it apart. I called and got the part FREE. Got the wrong part, called back and was told, "No problem, another on the way, keep the first part." Rem has smiths all over that will fix your gun free, no matter how old. But I solved the failures to feed by using Wolfe magazine springs.
A friend loaded his Ruger .41 with no powder, stuck a bullet and fired another. Expanded the cylinder, drove the pin down and top strap up without breaking any steel. Ruger sold him a new one at cost.
As much as I love Marlins, their warranty sucks. I hope Rem is better. I have a Remlin 30-30 and love it. If they keep the 1 in 38" twist I will not buy another.

[Ramjet-SS]

Nil? I disagree that's like saying chamber deminsion have nil effect. We will have to just agree to disagree. "best twist" subject and impacted by many many factors and application.

Henry shoots 310 grainers accurately that's a fact that's all I care.

[44man]

Have you measured pressures between twist rates. Can you show 310 gr boolit groups at 100 yards?
I bet I can set a pop can at 100 and you will run a box of 100 rounds and not hit it.
A .44 needs 47,376 rpms but even at 1800 fps from a rifle you only get 28,421 rpms from 1 in 38". I can tell you never watched boolits go down range with a scope.

[Ramjet-SS]

I will load up some and post the target for you and frankly I am not going to try and argue with the sites self appointed "know it all" ..... its like sticking a red hot ice pick in your own temple. Just not worth the effort. oh by the way look up the definition of friction if you need help understanding it read it again........

[MBTcustom]

Groups trump all Ramjet-SS. I believe that and live by it.
I very much want to see your groups.
I can't do what you claim (although I do love that 310 gr bullet).

[Ramjet-SS]

I will post them but have to size lube and load some ammo between work and play it may take a couple of days.

[hpdrifter]

For those that say 1-38 works; you can have my share.

[MBTcustom]

I will post them but have to size lube and load some ammo between work and play it may take a couple of days.

Always does. I just got done turning a bunch of ammo into empty brass last night myself. They say "easy come, easy go" and that's true except for the first part. LOL! It's still worth it though.

[44man]

I watched thousands of boolits go down range when I shot IHMSA. The 29's with 240 gr bullets were over spun and flight looked like a very fast corkscrew with the bullet rotating around the flight path but settled at long range. It never affected accuracy and normal groups at 50 meters were 1/2" with opens and shot Creedmore. Going to 250 to 265 gr and the rotation went away.
The Ruger did not show any of this and flight was straight all the way.
Under spun boolits would look good until so far out, then would veer far from the steel.
This was easy to see with BP rifles, Boolits looked good for a distance but then take off any which way so a ram would be missed by 5' or more in any direction. A sure sign of a boolit too heavy and long for the twist.
Yes I have the Lee 310 and the RD 265 along with a 330 gr I made the mold for. I also had 320 gr LBT WLN boolits. All will hold 3/4" at 50 meters and 1-1/4" at 100 from my old SBH. The RD is amazing from a 29.
All were shot from the Marlin and it was common to miss the whole paper at 100. Maybe have 2 close but no idea where the rest went. Dropping to the 245 RCBS Keith was no help past 50 yards, driven to max. Maybe the 180 gr would shoot but I hate light bullets for deer.
Now some will also say my 330 gr is to much in the Ruger's 1 in 20" and it is close. We tried the silly 400 or 405 gr boolits to see them tip at 50.
I can show what my boolit does from the Ruger. I did a drop test at 200 yards and it did this, 1-5/16". Only 3 shots but all I wanted was to measure drop from where I had the red dot.143980
Maybe I AM a know it all with the .44 since I have worked with it since 1956. I was shooting to 200 yards and more to 400 yards even back then and have clanged steel rams with my boolit at 500 meters. That is 547 yards by the way.
Just maybe I learned a thing or two about boolit stability.
Can you who say a Marlin .44 is accurate with 310 boolits post a 200 yard group? Trust comes in so don't label a 50 yard group as other. 143981 Here are Marlin groups at 50, just a lube test, yet the same load was sad at 100. I know what every single thing does with the .44 and can even tell you what primer you use. I can almost tell what dies you use.
You see what a lube change alone will do. I make no excuses and you can't intimidate me, I have done the work.

[Ramjet-SS]

You are my hero.

Self praise stinks!

[44man]

You are my hero.

Self praise stinks!
It does and I have none. My work has been given freely to all. Every single thing I learned is here for you all. You can take it or leave it if a week with a gun makes you smart.
Nobody has made the revolver shoot better then I have and I share the facts. I have not one single secret. I want everyone to shoot as good.
You are showing more experience and self praise.You must know a lot so show it. If you can get your marlin .44 to shoot 1" groups at 100, I and everyone else can learn from it. I will not reject you or call you names but proof must be shown. I would love to see 150 yard groups too.
You cant do it so bluff stinks.

[JesterGrin_1]

The most accurate boolit I found from my old JM Marlin 1894 SS in .44 Mag was a 300 Gr Truncated Point pushed hard with W-296 and a CCI Large Pistol Primer not a Mag Primer as they will open up groups. And you do not need a Magnum primer in the .44 Magnum unless you are going to shoot in extreme cold of which is not a worry in South TEXAS lol. With the above boolit sized at .432 or a tad more would give me right at 2 to 2 1/4" groups at 100 yards with a 3x9 scope. But for hunting purposes I was a bit leery of the design for hunting purposes. The next best boolit was the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC sized again at .432 at set out to the longest AOL or to say the bottom crimp groove of which may or may not cycle through your marlin without a little modification to the lifter of which is easy to do.

But instead of doing all of the work that will be needed for the Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag sell it to someone that needs a good dependable and handy close range rifle and get a JM Marlin 1895 in 45-70 Government and you will also have a good dependable and handy rifle except it will be 1 MOA and less at 100 yards if you do your part and you can probably load it down to below .44 Mag levels or load it up to take down any game in the world. Your call.

I settled on an old JM Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag and the JM Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 Government of which both have proved to be very accurate and cover everything from rabbit to Bear.

[44man]

Glad to see you use a LP standard as I do ONLY. I also agree to get the 45-70. Most Marlins are great but I would never buy another .44.

[Ramjet-SS]

44 man you very come often come across as though nobody else knows as much as you. Now maybe just maybe that's not what you intend, however it comes across that way. I have no reason to lie to you or anyone else on this sight. You say post targets to prove my accuracy at 100 yards. I laugh at that I could post a target from 10 feet how the hell you would you know? you wouldn't so you asking is really not very pertinent. Now I have new Henry Big Boy carbine it shoots the 300 grain cast bullets very well. Relative well or accurate is relative to the task it used for. Deer hunting where of the 175+ deer I have harvested most are taken inside of 100 yards. so minute of deer is good enough as long as I can cleanly harvest the animal. A heck one the most accurate rifles I owned in 44 was a Remington 788 shot 300 grain cast fantastic guess what the rate of twist was?

On one hand you say even lube will effect accuracy so why wouldnt rate of twist not effect pressure just like how tight the chamber is does? By the way it does effect pressure and yes I have done testing and also talked with many ballistics and that confirmed that. The amount varies of course.

So so anyways I shot the 300 grainers tonight at 75 yards will post the pic later but group was darn good and not all over the paper as you think it would be but then again "accurate" is relative.

[Alan in GA]

Interesting discussion on the 1:38" twist. I purchased a NEW Marlin 1894 44 mag I believe about 1977. $112 from Oshman's in Atlanta when there was an Oshmans there.
Accuracy was poor. Scoped groups at 100 yards were at best 4", some to 6" and even 8". Now I DO remember this: the bore did not look like a very accurately machined bore. Reamer marks on the lands, dark surfaces. Even back then there was discussion and inquiry as to WHY such a slow twist for the 44 mag. I think the barrels Marlin used, at least in the one I had, was evident of poor quality. A side note, I removed the front sight [can't remember why] and discovered one of the two front site base holes was oversized, NO THREADS, and the screw was anchored with a BLACK adhesive! The screw hole had smooth machined walls and was blued, apparently drilled with an over size drill bit. No evidence of threads having ever been tapped. I sent the rifle back to Marlin noting this, and also that the lift lever had apparently bent because I tried to cycle the action with 250 Keith SWC's which were too long. I must have used too much force on the lever...??.
Marlin sent the rifle back with a NEW BARREL which was about the only way to remedy the obviously messed up front sight screw hole [in the barrel]. I never did try the new barrel for groups as my Dad bought the rifle. My brother in law now owns it as Dad gave it to him just before passing. Dad asked me if it would bother me and because I am so close to my BIL I thought it was a nice move. My BIL and I have deer hunted together since I've known him in high school. Maybe I could borrow the 1894 for some group testing?
I think the 1894 44 mag is a very handy rifle and pretty adept for woods hunting we have here in Georgia.
IF I were to buy ANY rifle in 44 mag again, I'm pretty sure I would want something with faster twist than 38". I had a Ruger 77/44 for a few months and it gave much better accuracy although not MOA.

[TXGunNut]

As good as any: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_twist_rule


Oh, you had to go there, lol. Miller formula REALLY made my head hurt. I got the impression his formula is more about j-words.

[Outpost75]

Oh, you had to go there, lol. Miller formula REALLY made my head hurt. I got the impression his formula is more about j-words.


It is, but it works and IS more simple than the traditional method shown here:

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/gyrocond.htm

[44man]

44 man you very come often come across as though nobody else knows as much as you. Now maybe just maybe that's not what you intend, however it comes across that way. I have no reason to lie to you or anyone else on this sight. You say post targets to prove my accuracy at 100 yards. I laugh at that I could post a target from 10 feet how the hell you would you know? you wouldn't so you asking is really not very pertinent. Now I have new Henry Big Boy carbine it shoots the 300 grain cast bullets very well. Relative well or accurate is relative to the task it used for. Deer hunting where of the 175+ deer I have harvested most are taken inside of 100 yards. so minute of deer is good enough as long as I can cleanly harvest the animal. A heck one the most accurate rifles I owned in 44 was a Remington 788 shot 300 grain cast fantastic guess what the rate of twist was?

On one hand you say even lube will effect accuracy so why wouldnt rate of twist not effect pressure just like how tight the chamber is does? By the way it does effect pressure and yes I have done testing and also talked with many ballistics and that confirmed that. The amount varies of course.

So so anyways I shot the 300 grainers tonight at 75 yards will post the pic later but group was darn good and not all over the paper as you think it would be but then again "accurate" is relative.
You know I was not trying to be mean. But more others say bad things about the twist rate then I have.
I have killed a few deer with the Marlin .44 but I did NOT hit them where I aimed either at 65 yards. That bothered me. I was a good 10" off but the deer took one step and went down.
I hunt mostly with revolvers and anything over 1" at 50 is tossed. From a rifle that is 100 yards. I really try for better.
You know I trust you so if you say 100 yards, so be it. If you can teach us how to make the twist shoot you need to see what everyone else can do.
The worst thing I do is ask for proof, it drives everyone nuts but in the end it does show what anyone says is true. I too have wallet groups but I must be able to do it over and over.

[snowwolfe]

The 29's with 240 gr bullets were over spun and flight looked like a very fast corkscrew with the bullet rotating around the flight path but settled at long range. It never affected accuracy and normal groups at 50 meters were 1/2" with opens and shot Creedmore.

How can you see a bullets path as a corkscrew when the bullet is shooting 1/2 inch groups at 50 meters?

[Outpost75]

How can you see a bullets path as a corkscrew when the bullet is shooting 1/2 inch groups at 50 meters?

I think that is a natural distortion of vision when using Google Glass which is caused by youthful exposure to bad weed.

[MarkP]

How can you see a bullets path as a corkscrew when the bullet is shooting 1/2 inch groups at 50 meters?

I have seen the corkscrew while spotting 300 yd targets (168 Match in 308 Win) kind of looked like they were flopping (pitching) as they followed a helical path. Just before they hit the target it looked like they were sucked into a group that was smaller than the apparent diameter of the helical path. Very neat to see. This particular range was set up East to West with targets to the West and it was mid afternoon.

While spotting 200 m rams I have seen 45's of 44's drop into view just before hitting the ram. Did not see the corkscrew.

[44man]

How can you see a bullets path as a corkscrew when the bullet is shooting 1/2 inch groups at 50 meters?
It can be seen with a good spotting scope. Yeah crazy
Once we had the sun right when shooting the .44 and they looked like tracers. Shot over 100 at a knot in a tree. great fun.
Only thing I found was POI changed with different distances. Not enough to worry about.

[44man]

I have seen the corkscrew while spotting 300 yd targets (168 Match in 308 Win) kind of looked like they were flopping (pitching) as they followed a helical path. Just before they hit the target it looked like they were sucked into a group that was smaller than the apparent diameter of the helical path. Very neat to see. This particular range was set up East to West with targets to the West and it was mid afternoon.

While spotting 200 m rams I have seen 45's of 44's drop into view just before hitting the ram. Did not see the corkscrew.
Yes. It is over spin but not a bad thing. I will say under spin is the worst of all.

[MBTcustom]

Can't say I've ever seen the corkscrew myself, but I've talked to someone who shoots contenders a lot who claimed the same, exactly as 44man has described.

However, if you have never shot (any caliber at all) in the evening with the sun at your back, you need to add it to your bucket list of things to spend time doing. You can watch them all the way to the target and it teaches you important things about your firearm. My favorite was shooting my 12 gauge with .735 diameter round balls at 130 yards. Looked just like cannon balls and was very fun.

[Ramjet-SS]

Seen it through a shooting scope especially the big bore guns I shoot.

44man I have never had gun go that far off target when hunting deer and like I said I have taken just south 200 animals including well over 20 elk with gun and several more with longbow. Yea if I had that expereince I most certainly would get rid of that gun to say the least. Any errant shots that I have had fall directly upon my shoulders not the equipment. I make darn sure the equipment is up to the task and because I enjoy shooting so much I shoot just about every day. But again I am not a long range shooter I like BIG BORE and up close and personal hunting. I also hunt mostly with handguns and although I have or do not compete (except with myself) I do shoot literally 5000 + rounds per year.

I never said said the gun shot 1" groups I said it was plenty accurate at 100 yards with 300 grainers with upper end loads.

[44man]

Well, you are a good man in my book. It is true that a miss or a bad hit should be just us pieces of flesh. The gun just must shoot. I am blown away with our new sniper rifles that even take into account the earths rotation and precession of the bullet.
The funnest thing was the 30-30 TC I sold my friend. I would spot and see the boolit going to the next ram in line and see the boolit swing back to hit the one shot at. Holy smokes!

[hpdrifter]

Well, you are a good man in my book. It is true that a miss or a bad hit should be just us pieces of flesh. The gun just must shoot. I am blown away with our new sniper rifles that even take into account the earths rotation and precession of the bullet.
The funnest thing was the 30-30 TC I sold my friend. I would spot and see the boolit going to the next ram in line and see the boolit swing back to hit the one shot at. Holy smokes!

sounds like that Browning challenger I once owned; swore it had esp in the barrel. One I should have never sold.

[44man]

Watching boolt flight and also recovering fired boolits to inspect are things I believe in. But watching the sun off a GC or jacketed base has to be the most fun. Just watch the MTM box run dry!
Some claim decent accuracy and maybe your gun has something different.
The pity was I loved the feel of the little gun.

[monge]

Anyone rebarrel marlin 44levers with the proper twist for heavy boolits?love the feel of there 44!

[MBTcustom]

I think that "accuracy" is a relative term, and as much as that pains me to say it, it's the truth.
Accuracy for me is held to a very high standard. I want to be able to print groups on paper out to 200 yards at least without any provisos, hiccups, exceptions, or "it only works at 50 yards" excuses. I also want to be able to hit what I want in the field, and hit with enough authority to get the job done, and use a gun that gives me fast followup shots.

Paper with small groups
a full freezer
an aimed shot every second and a half
and it really doesn't hurt my feelings if the gun that does this looks just as slick as it runs.
I want all this with cast lead and I want 100 good shots before I have to clean the barrel.
Basically, I want it all.
That's just me.

Others are happy with Copenhagen can sized groups at 40 yards and that's their definition of "accurate" because they reason that no need will ever arise for a shot longer than that.
At my deer camp for instance, the number one rifle is the single shot H&R handi rifle. Most of the folks there think those are target rifles, and the deer killin-est firearm to ever be produced. The reason they like them is that most of the shots are close, and you have to walk through heavy brush. They don't suspect the target accuracy isn't quite there anymore till they miss a deer.
However, one guy carves a little notch in the stock for every deer he has killed with a gun, and he has notches down both sides of the forend spaced about 1/4" apart, from the pistol grip to the toe (same spacing) and last year, he proudly started carving notches on the top of the comb (I watched him do this with a rusty Barlow pocket knife). To that man, I couldn't trade him a Shiloh Sharps for that little gun, but if I were to put it to paper, he would't be able to hit a pop can half the time at 100 yards from a rest!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and sadly, accuracy is too.

[MBTcustom]

Anyone rebarrel marlin 44levers with the proper twist for heavy boolits?love the feel of there 44!

I will be doing one for Bjornb soon.

[Lonegun1894]

Goodsteel,
You're absolutely right that accuracy is a relative term. I can't speak for others, but I have various toys for various uses. I have a couple of rifles that will consistently shoot well under an inch at 100 yds and don't get over 1.5" at 200yds, so would probably satisfy your accuracy requirements. But I also like the challenge of getting in close to the game when I hunt, and that includes hunting with muzzleloaders, bows, handguns, shotguns, etc. So while I understand and agree with making everything as accurate as it can be, sometimes it's a good challenge to just accept the limitations of whatever weapon we chose to use and make it work for us. For example, I like hunting hogs and getting into the thick stuff after them trying to sneak up close enough to get a shot. My H&R .44 Mag gives consistent groups of 3.5"@100 or less, usually closer to 2.5" average but enough open up to 3.5" that I feel I'd be lying if I didn't mention them, but most of the places I hunt I can barely see 50 yards, and often can't see 20 yards cause the brush is so thick, and at 20 yards it really doesn't matter if I am carrying a scoped heavy barreled bolt action .308 or a SxS 12ga when the target is the vitals of a hog. One area I hunt requires shotguns or archery gear. I have a Mossberg 500 12ga smoothbore that gives me 5-6"@100 yards, and remember that my usual range due to brush is 50yards or less, so that translates to 2.5-3" groups at most, which is bigger than the hogs vitals. I trust this gun to about 125yards, but beyond that, the accuracy just falls apart, and it is a joke at 200 yards (yes, I tried just to see drop and groups). It does 7-8" at 125 and opened up to just shy of 4 feet at 200yards. All I am saying is that sometimes, there is such a thing as good enough for a certain job as long as we stay within the limitations of the weapon and ourselves as shooters, but we should still always strive to improve both ourselves and our weapons.

[Blackwater]

Goodsteel is right, and it's amazing to me how many go afield with super accurate, blueprinted "sniper" rifles and STILL can't kill a deer, and yet, just as GS says, some go afield with the humblest of rifles and eat venison like most eat candy. It ain't always the tool, but the tool CAN make a difference if we'll just acquire the skills to use them well. Carpenters love really good tools, but CAN, if they HAVE to, git-r-done with most anything that's available if they HAVE to. And then there's that old adage from Bill Jordan, (the Border Partollman, NOT the camo guy) that "speed's fine but accuracy's final," and that covers a lot of ground also, when applied generously. Only hits count, in the end, and really good and accurate loads give us much improved chances of eating venison or winning bragging rights on paper. It IS relative, but that doesn't mean there aren't any constants within that variableness. Good shots will always want the best and most accurate loads, and the also-ran shots won't know if they're good or not, or be very able to improve, without those same, more accurate loads. Like Goodsteel, I want it all, too, and that takes longer and requires more testing and proving, but it really IS worth it if we ever want to be or maintain being a really good shot. It all depends on your aspirations and attitude toward the shooting you do, and how seriously you take it.

[MBTcustom]

On the subject of archery, I once stacked two arrows at 50 yards. Only two arrows in the target, and one was slid cleanly into the other. These were the old style arrows with the sharpened rears that you glue the nock on the back of the arrow.
I also could stack 6 arrows into a 1.5" group at 60 yards.
Once in competition, there was a bear target that ran in a 6' circle. The object was to nock the arrow and shoot the bear after it crossed peg #1 but before it crossed peg #2. You were supposed to shoot one, pull the arrow, and then do it a second time. While I was waiting my turn, I was timing how long I would have to shoot between the two pegs, and I figured I could get two arrows into the bear in that amount of time if I shot quickly.
When my turn came around, I nocked an arrow, and situated my body to where the second shot would be the most comfortable. When they ran the bear, I shot it in the 12 ring as soon as it crossed peg #1, nocked a second arrow, and split the first just before it crossed peg #2.
The news crew ran over and took my picture and it got run in the local paper.
144319
Once they left, the guy running the target mumbled something about a lucky shot. I told him I could do it again if he would be so kind as to run the target a second time. This was heartily upheld as an excellent proposition by all concerned, and I stepped to the line a second time and repeated the performance. The arrows literally went into the same holes as the first two (both in the 12 ring), but rather than splitting the first arrow perfectly, it only encompassed the second arrow by a few fibers. It was still impressive and people cheered when I pulled the arrows and said "Yep, you're right. It was a lucky shot."
LOL!
Now, everybody who showed up that day brought enough bow to hit the bear, and many of them 12 ringed it, and after I did what I did, there was another guy who tried it and managed to split his arrows, but I did it on the clock.

I like doing things like that. I like taking a system that is not generally thought to be very accurate, removing all the wiggle, trimming the loose ends, and making it shoot better than you would have imagined. That doesn't make it right for everybody, but it really stinks when the main thing that's keeping you from doing really great things with a rifle is the barrel itself.
Yeah it works. No, I'm not impressed.

[NYBushBro]

Others are happy with Copenhagen can sized groups at 40 yards and that's their definition of "accurate" because they reason that no need will ever arise for a shot longer than that.


Now I know what to use all of those Copenhagen lids for... TARGETS! :-)

[MBTcustom]

Now I know what to use all of those Copenhagen lids for... TARGETS! :-)

Why do you think they put that little diamond in the lid?

[Blackwater]

GS, you're what I call a "True Shooter," one who just lays back, looks at the matter, and figures it out, and tests things and develops the skills required to do stuff like that. I'm similarly bent, but maybe not quite as thoroughly achieved as you, especially with the bow. I'm betting you're better than a fair hand with rod n' reel as well? You sit and think and analyze things, and that's just not in fashion today. The prevailing attitude today is that things OUGHT to be "easy," if we just follow some elementary instructions, but nothing in life has really ever quite been that way. That we "moderns" expect them to be is really more a comment on us than it is on the natural processes we all go through in reloading, life, or whatever. There's just little impetus to drive us to really think about things these days, and that's not really the newer or more inexperienced shooters we have so many of now. It's just something they need to learn, but if they do, it'll serve them well in MANY aspects of their lives.

[Ramjet-SS]

On the subject of archery, I once stacked two arrows at 50 yards. Only two arrows in the target, and one was slid cleanly into the other. These were the old style arrows with the sharpened rears that you glue the nock on the back of the arrow.
I also could stack 6 arrows into a 1.5" group at 60 yards.
Once in competition, there was a bear target that ran in a 6' circle. The object was to nock the arrow and shoot the bear after it crossed peg #1 but before it crossed peg #2. You were supposed to shoot one, pull the arrow, and then do it a second time. While I was waiting my turn, I was timing how long I would have to shoot between the two pegs, and I figured I could get two arrows into the bear in that amount of time if I shot quickly.
When my turn came around, I nocked an arrow, and situated my body to where the second shot would be the most comfortable. When they ran the bear, I shot it in the 12 ring as soon as it crossed peg #1, nocked a second arrow, and split the first just before it crossed peg #2.
The news crew ran over and took my picture and it got run in the local paper.
144319
Once they left, the guy running the target mumbled something about a lucky shot. I told him I could do it again if he would be so kind as to run the target a second time. This was heartily upheld as an excellent proposition by all concerned, and I stepped to the line a second time and repeated the performance. The arrows literally went into the same holes as the first two (both in the 12 ring), but rather than splitting the first arrow perfectly, it only encompassed the second arrow by a few fibers. It was still impressive and people cheered when I pulled the arrows and said "Yep, you're right. It was a lucky shot."
LOL!
Now, everybody who showed up that day brought enough bow to hit the bear, and many of them 12 ringed it, and after I did what I did, there was another guy who tried it and managed to split his arrows, but I did it on the clock.

I like doing things like that. I like taking a system that is not generally thought to be very accurate, removing all the wiggle, trimming the loose ends, and making it shoot better than you would have imagined. That doesn't make it right for everybody, but it really stinks when the main thing that's keeping you from doing really great things with a rifle is the barrel itself.
Yeah it works. No, I'm not impressed.


Instinct shooting is amazing and that's is impressive I won several state Longbow titles and when you are hot you are hot but man o man I had to shoot every single day to develope that skill.

My my favorite targets were the turkey head behind the log moving back and forth. The other was the steel deer with the kill zone cut out. The noise the arrow would make as it shattered hitting that steel was worse sound in the world. But when someone else would clang it we just laughed knowing another cedar arrow met its maker.

[44man]

Longbow, I thought the 240gr. was the first loading of the 44mag.
It was and still is best for a start. But a 1 in 20" revolver can go to 330 gr boolits but 1 in 38" can't be shot fast enough. The .444 could not.
Claims are made but I don't believe them. The .44 mag is NOT a 200 yard gun for deer either even if accurate. Sure you can poke a hole at 600 or more but energy has been lost. I see a difference with deer shot at 20 yards and 100 with the .44. Shoot one at 200 and don't even bother looking. Only a fool would do it. Make a Marlin accurate at 200, you smoke funny stuff! That is where they screwed up.
You need a large boolit so I made molds to .434". True, Micro groove needs larger but did it help? Naw, not a bit. You can't SPIN so get over it. You have a BP ML at best. Marlins have been great UNTIL you get to the .44. Greenhill, c'mon!
You SAY yours shoots so and so at 100 to 200. Show it. The Lee 310 in the Marlin was a bust of the highest order, even a 240 was a joke.

[Clay M]

I always considered the .44 magnum a 100 yd deer rifle.
It was my fathers favorite deer rifle for close range brush shots.
He killed many large deer with it, but I believe all shots were 50 yds or less.
My father was the best. He trained me from the time I was six years old with a Winchester Model 62,but my real training came for the Army ROTC program, and Gunney Sgt. Robert Breese.He was indeed the very best.
I will lay a flower at his grave.

My father was a WWII veteran , and an expert marksman.
His favorite long range deer rifle was a pre 64 model 70 in .243 win.
I still own those rifle.
Wish I still had the 40X I used on the team.

[Clay M]

The old 1/38 " twist severs its purpose for those who shoot 240 gr factory loads.
That covers about 85 %..
The modern gun manufactures couldn't care less about handloaders,..much less bullet casters.
I never tell a company I shoot cast bullets, because they consider it a black art at best..
I have had many say it is the end of the conversation.
For a new Marlin, I would pull the barrel and put a Douglas 1/20 on it.
That is if you want to shoot cast.
My fathers Marlin is scared ..I would never touch it.
It was the first rifle I deer hunted with when I was eleven.

[JesterGrin_1]

It was and still is best for a start. But a 1 in 20" revolver can go to 330 gr boolits but 1 in 38" can't be shot fast enough. The .444 could not.
Claims are made but I don't believe them. The .44 mag is NOT a 200 yard gun for deer either even if accurate. Sure you can poke a hole at 600 or more but energy has been lost. I see a difference with deer shot at 20 yards and 100 with the .44. Shoot one at 200 and don't even bother looking. Only a fool would do it. Make a Marlin accurate at 200, you smoke funny stuff! That is where they screwed up.
You need a large boolit so I made molds to .434". True, Micro groove needs larger but did it help? Naw, not a bit. You can't SPIN so get over it. You have a BP ML at best. Marlins have been great UNTIL you get to the .44. Greenhill, c'mon!
You SAY yours shoots so and so at 100 to 200. Show it. The Lee 310 in the Marlin was a bust of the highest order, even a 240 was a joke.

Hey now Jim remember due to your help I had semi good luck with the Lee 310 Gr RNFP/GC in my 1894 Marlin SS in .44 Mag. That is if you can call 2 3/4 to 3" groups at 100 yards with a scope a semi success. lol. But as you know they were pushed hard with W-296 as well.

Also as you and probably many know that is the reason the 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag went down the road and I picked up the JM Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 of which for a cannon is a darn accurate rifle. Best thing I did as far as Marlin levers go.

[JesterGrin_1]

I would pull the barrel and put a Douglas 1/20 on it.
That is if you want to shoot cast.


If I found a dirt cheap Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag that is something I would like to do. But I have read of other reports of people doing just that but the rifle still did not shoot nearly as well as the Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 Government. Of course they shot better but not 1 MOA or less like its big brother. :)

[44man]

I could not get mine to shoot with anything and 2 years of trying with every thing I could get my hands on made me sell it to be converted to something else. I loved the rifle itself and called marlin about getting the 1 in 20" .444 barrel installed and chambered in the .44, it was way too expensive and the warranty was only 2 years.
My friend has the stainless Guide Gun in 45-70 and it is a jewel, very accurate with anything but he refuses to sell it to me. I did not have $800 for a new one so I found a 30-30 on sale, Remlin and it shoots real good.
The only thing I did not have for the .44 were 180 gr boolits. Some calculated the twist for the .44 and figured the slowest for the velocity it could reach was 1 in 22" to 1 in 25". Still slow for the heavy boolits.
I did get a few shots now and then close but just luck of the draw, many shots were not even on paper. I figured I could cock my SBH, toss it on the bench and shoot better.
I never like to ask for proof so forgive me. I DID get the gun to shoot at 50 with a special boolit I designed for long range but it is like a spitser, tiny meplat no good for deer. With expectations high I went to 100 with the hope of at least having a target load--NOPE!
My friend watching through a spotting scope said boolits had a mind of their own past 50.162014 This was a lube test, the boolit is about 250 gr.
I like to show this set because it shows how important lube is. LBT Hard Blue left and Felix right.