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ohland
06-25-2015, 10:10 PM
The four apostles – the Ideal 308274, 308279, 308280 and 308278

Shooting & Fishing May 25, 1905 vol 38, No. 7. page 129 (American Rifleman, vol 39)
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z5cwAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=doyle+308274+308,279&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r6iMVaXaAcGpgwSc-qnwDA&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=doyle%20308274%20308%2C279&f=true

THE LATEST BULLETS

Manufacturers, as well as all shooters and the country in general, are indebted to such men as Dr Walter G. Hudson, Sergt. George H. Doyle, of the Seventy-first Regiment, N. G. N. Y., J. H. Keough, of Wakefield, Mass., and others. The three mentioned are all shooters of national and international reputation. They are eternally trying something new and different, and among the new bullets put on the market by the Ideal Mfg. Co. there will be designated in the next catalogue the following: Bullet N0. 308274, designed by Sergt. Doyle, of the Seventy-first Regiment, N. Y. N. G.; No 308280, designed by J. H. Keough, of Wakefield, Mass.; and No. 308279, designed by Dr. W. G. Hudson, New York. These bullets full length work perfectly through the magazine when seated to the proper depth in the shell, and weigh about 200 grains when cast from the Ideal bullet metal, which is composed of ten per cent tin, seven per cent antimony, three per cent copper, and eighty per cent lead. This is very similar to the well known Hudson alloy, with the addition of three per cent copper. There is little or no waste in this alloy, which is properly amalgamated by a regular metallurgist. It is run in small pigs weighing about 1 1/2 pounds. When purchasing separately the metal of which the alloy is composed and mixing in small quantities, there is much loss. We have found twenty-five per cent loss in the weight of bullets obtained from 100 pounds of unamalgamated metal. With the Ideal bullet metal there is practically no waste. The bullets cast are smooth and uniform in size. The metal costs a trifle more per pound, but is cheapest in the end.


The Hudson and Keough bullets are very similar in form. Both have the enlarged front gas-check band and dirt catcher groove, which groove should be filled with lubrication. Sergeant Doyle's bullet has dispensed with both of these features, which we believe to be valuable, but, while recognizing their merit, he states that, if carelessly seated in the shell too deep, the enlarged band will cause trouble by expanding the muzzle of the shell, so that the cartridge will not enter freely in the chamber.


A series of tests have proved that 15 grains weight of Laflin & Rand Marksman powder loose in the shell is a fine load for such bullets. With the above charge at 500 and 600 yards, these bullets may be deflected slightly if there is a strong wind. To produce a trifle more powerful cartridge in which there would be no fusion of the cast bullets, J. H. Keough experimented with filling the space in the shell with the well-known breakfast food. cream of wheat. This overcame the fusion of the alloyed bullet up to the point of stripping. There is, however, an element of danger in filling the air space in the shell. The manufacturers of the powders have distinctly stated that their powders are not designed to be so used, and that they cannot be held responsible in case of accident. Nevertheless, Mr. Keough, Sergeant Doyle, and Dr. Hudson have used the cream of wheat. Sergeant Doyle has loaded some 40,000 rounds of ammunition for the Seventy-first Regiment, N.G.N.Y., as follows: Shells all resized and the neck expanded with .310 of an inch expander, the extreme edge of the muzzle of the shell chamfer reamed, so as not to cut or scrape the cast bullet, non-mercuric primers, and 14 grains weight of Laflin & Rand Sharpshooter powder. The cream of wheat (measured in the Ideal measure) filled the space up to within one quarter of an inch of the muzzle of the shell. On this was seated the Doyle bullet No. 308274, in depth just to cover the two rear grooves, no crimp. Velocity thus obtained was shown to be about 1,450 feet per second


J. H. Keough prepares his shells the same way. using his bullet No 308280 with 19 grains weight of Hazard Blue Ribbon shotgun powder, followed by cream of wheat, (10 grains Ideal measure), which fills the shell within one quarter of an inch. On this he seats his bullet up to one hundredth of an inch of the enlarged band. He reports excellent work at 500 and 600 yards.


Dr. Hudson obtained good results with his bullet No. 308279 with a charge of 20 grains weight of Laflin & Rand Lightning powder (Ideal measure set at 26 grains). On top of this the shell was filled with the cream of wheat and the bullet seated up to within one-hundredth of an inch of the enlarged band. The grooves were filled with lubrication. The velocities reported by him were somewhat over 1,600 feet per second, and the pressures were reported rather high.


Opinions differ as to the powders to be used and the quantity of the cereal, etc. There is, however, no doubt of the efficiency of the cream of wheat to prevent fusion, but there is an element of danger connected with the experiment at present, which, however, we believe will be eliminated very soon if it has not been already, and until such time as its safety is positively demonstrated, we would recommend the Doyle bullet No. 308274 with a charge of 15 grains of Laflin & Rand Marksman powder and no cereal, or bullet No. 308279 for those who desire lubrication to first strike the barrel and a dirt scraper without the enlarged band.


While recognizing the desire for a more powerful mid range reloaded cartridge with cast bullet, we believe that the sub-skirmish idea, that was originally intended for schools and clubs where only 200-yard ranges were to be had, proposed by J. A. Haskell, of the Laflin & Rand Powder Co., will develop into a more popular practice cartridge than was first thought of. The fact that the whole skirmish practice may be had at ranges one-third of the regulation distances, with ammunition at a nominal cost, is certain to make the sub-skirmish load popular with all military organizations. The method of preparing sub-skirmish cartridges can be learned from the Laflin & Rand Powder Co.. Wilmington, Del.


One is not confined to the use of cast bullets in reloading ammunition, for the highest scores made at Sea Girt in the years 1902, 1903, and 1904 and most of the principal prizes were won with hand loaded ammunition with jacketed bullets. Good service shells that have been fired, the proper primers, and the special metal-covered bullets known as Peters Hayes-Hudson, U. M. C. Thomas, and Winchester-Hudson, with 36 grains of W. A. powder, carefully assembled with the proper implements, make a reloaded cartridge that gives the shooter confidence and wins matches, for when you prepare your own ammunition you can take all the care you choose with it. Of the expert shots, among those found at the top of the list in the important matches, there are few who will use any ammunition except that of their own loading, if the conditions of the match will permit.


THE LATEST BULLETS.
142934








No. 308274—Doyle bullet has no enlarged band, dirt scraper, or front lubrication.

142935

No. 308279— Hudson bullet has enlarged straight front band with dirt scraper and front lubrication. The 200-grain weight is for mid range and 159-grain weight is for the sub-skirmish.

142936

No. 308280—Keough bullet similar to Hudson. with the enlarged gas-check band cut on a bevel. The diameter of the forward portion is larger than in the Hudson.

142937

No. 308278—This bullet is similar to the Hudson bullet without the enlarged front band. The forward portion measures .300 of an inch in diameter, which just fills the bore. It has front lubrication and dirt scraper. This bullet may be used in the .30-40 rifles, such as Winchester, Remington, Stevens-Pope, etc., as well as in the Krag.

Rooster
06-25-2015, 10:16 PM
Wow, that is one rich alloy they used back in them thar days.

Greg
06-26-2015, 10:54 AM
ohland –

Now this brings to my mind a few questions…


Mid-range is how many yards ?

What is ‘sub-skirmish’ ?

the alloy is (I think) later referred to as #1 ?

I also like the reference to ‘Gas check band’ on what we call ‘a front driving band’
I guess city folks didn’t drive much of anything in 1905

I do comprehend the idea of ‘fusion’


I can spend hours reading history of early reloading / shooting…
thank you for your efforts

ohland
06-26-2015, 11:28 AM
Now this brings to my mind a few questions…

As much as I'd like to consider myself an absolute mine of Trivial information, I cannot at this time give you the CORRECT definition of most of that. My first guess is sub-skirmish will be in period regulations, I have seen mid-range defined, but at the time I wasn't looking for it.

UPDATE
Whelen says sub-skirmish is 200 yards or less. The rifleman advances downrange, stopping at specified ranges to shoot a number of rounds at the target.

Suggestions to Military Marksmen
https://books.google.com/books?id=TphJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA174&dq=%22sub-skirmish%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7HCNVfjBAcfwoASM3afwBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22sub-skirmish%22&f=false

I am re-indexing the Lyman / Ideal mould numbers right now (among other things). Which ball should I drop?

"Provisional Small-Arms Firing Manual," which takes effect January 1, 1910. looks to be what you want.

:veryconfu