open note to FFL s

[too many things]

remember back when Clinton was in he was after the FFLs. and Bush came in and changed things.
Well mr O is back after them
Just lost mine today. so be ware
seems they have made new rules and since they have the "right" to read them the way they want no recourse

[JWT]

The paperwork reduction act got my collectors FFL back in 1999. When I moved I got a 1/2 sheet form for the city to fill out and a full sheet explaining that to save on paper and paperwork the form had been simplified. The form for the city boiled down to "Can a business be at this address?". In my city the answer was no. It didn't matter that I never sold anything or had any intention to sell.

[snowwolfe]

remember back when Clinton was in he was after the FFLs. and Bush came in and changed things.
Well mr O is back after them
Just lost mine today. so be ware
seems they have made new rules and since they have the "right" to read them the way they want no recourse

Why did you lose your FFL?

[Rooster]

Yep, Billyboy was my reason to drop out of the business. Victory for the antis.

[waksupi]

Why did you lose your FFL?

I would also like to know this. I have had an 03 FFL for years. I have never heard of a holder having an inspection, or any contact except for new FFL regulation books being sent, and renewal notices. See anything about this at Cruffler.com?

[MaryB]

03 has nothing to do with selling, it is for individuals who collect older guns...

[too many things]

well answer is they don't want anyone that don't have a store. you have to move so many in a time. that was what Bush stopped but we have a new grabber now.
now they say it has to be your "Primary" business .

[mrvmax]

well answer is they don't want anyone that don't have a store. you have to move so many in a time. that was what Bush stopped but we have a new grabber now.
now they say it has to be your "Primary" business .
Sorry but that statement is simply not true. I have a home based business that I do part time and I have not had any problems. Now if you cannot abide by HOA and local laws for home based businesses they will revoke. Give more details.

[timspawn]

well answer is they don't want anyone that don't have a store. you have to move so many in a time. that was what Bush stopped but we have a new grabber now.
now they say it has to be your "Primary" business .

How many guns were you buying/selling per year and what state are you located in?

[too many things]

well I live in WV and moved about 5 to 10 a year. I have had a FFL since 1976. never a problem. there is now
so if you don't have a store you will find out .
you all don't know what Mr O is doing.
oh as a note. they know how many you do
all the NICS checks are sent to the local ATF office. it it don't show any in 3 mo then you are on the list to check out
Guys this is what he is doing so if you don't use it a lot . run a bunch of names offen through the NICS
you can run several friends but USE it .
this is a fact not BS

[mrvmax]

well I live in WV and moved about 5 to 10 a year. I have had a FFL since 1976. never a problem. there is now
so if you don't have a store you will find out .
you all don't know what Mr O is doing.
oh as a note. they know how many you do
all the NICS checks are sent to the local ATF office. it it don't show any in 3 mo then you are on the list to check out
Guys this is what he is doing so if you don't use it a lot . run a bunch of names offen through the NICS
you can run several friends but USE it .
this is a fact not BS
It is true that it needs to be a legitimate business and 5-10 transactions a year is not, they do not allow you to do it as a hobby (heck, that is so few I would not even consider it enough to be a hobby). Sorry but if that was all you were doing I would have revoked your license too. I can do more in a day than that.

[MaryB]

03 FFL is not a business though... it is a hobby!

[MaryB]

Okay so I get an FFL so I can ship guns for engraving. Chances are it will be less than 1 a month most of the time...

[knfmn]

It is true that it needs to be a legitimate business and 5-10 transactions a year is not, they do not allow you to do it as a hobby (heck, that is so few I would not even consider it enough to be a hobby). Sorry but if that was all you were doing I would have revoked your license too. I can do more in a day than that.

And how many have you decided that people need to do per year before you no longer consider them hobbyists? Glad that you're not the deciding factor for most people.

Running through 5-10 sales per year sounds reasonable for a part time business. It depends on how much time you're willing to put into it.

[MaryB]

Especially if you re buying and selling high end collectables... what is the market for $10k+ guns? Very limited to a few collectors who have that kind of money.

[mrvmax]

And how many have you decided that people need to do per year before you no longer consider them hobbyists? Glad that you're not the deciding factor for most people.

Running through 5-10 sales per year sounds reasonable for a part time business. It depends on how much time you're willing to put into it.
He never mentioned being an 03, I assume an 01. If you sell high dollar guns and only sell 5-10 a year then you do not need an FFL. Whether you like it or not, they will never give out FFL's to sell 5-10 guns a year. From your statements you obviously have no FFL experience since what you are stating makes no sense. I may not be the deciding factor but the ATF is sand that is THEIR policy so despite your opinion they will not give out licenses for someone who sells 5 guns a year. That is not a business, that is the beginning of a hobby. Nobody could stay in business by only selling 5-10 guns a year so it is not legitimate business. Stop all the what if's, this guy is not selling 50k double guns and even then ATF rules do not allow issuing an FFL for that. Forget about all the government conspiracy about Obama wanting to shut this guy down, he did not have a legitimate business - end of story.

[mrvmax]

Especially if you re buying and selling high end collectables... what is the market for $10k+ guns? Very limited to a few collectors who have that kind of money. So do you think that all the FFL's that carry 10k guns only sell five per year? If you do you are wrong, class three items can be way more than that so try and name me one class three dealer that survives only selling five items a year. It cannot be done since that is not a legitimate business. Businesses have to make money to survive, 5 guns a year would not even pay overhead.

[knfmn]

He never mentioned being an 03, I assume an 01. If you sell high dollar guns and only sell 5-10 a year then you do not need an FFL. Whether you like it or not, they will never give out FFL's to sell 5-10 guns a year. From your statements you obviously have no FFL experience since what you are stating makes no sense. I may not be the deciding factor but the ATF is sand that is THEIR policy so despite your opinion they will not give out licenses for someone who sells 5 guns a year. That is not a business, that is the beginning of a hobby. Nobody could stay in business by only selling 5-10 guns a year so it is not legitimate business. Stop all the what if's, this guy is not selling 50k double guns and even then ATF rules do not allow issuing an FFL for that. Forget about all the government conspiracy about Obama wanting to shut this guy down, he did not have a legitimate business - end of story.
Thank you for schooling me. My favorite part of Internet forums is when people tell me what I do and do not know. It's awesome.

[Geraldo]

Think of it another way: you don't want license requirements for people who sell 5-10 guns per year.

I read a lot of ATF rules/regs when I got my 03. IIRC they mention specifically that an 01 isn't a license to just buy guns at wholesale.

[Chrisg19]

There are a lot of missing details. What type of FFL? What exactly did the ATF letter say? How many and what kind of errors were found during your last inspection (if 01,02,07,08).

[mrvmax]

Thank you for schooling me. My favorite part of Internet forums is when people tell me what I do and do not know. It's awesome.
This has nothing to do with anyone's opinion, it is what the rules are for FFL's as dictated by the ATF and all the FFL's should know that if they are or plan to be in business. If you have some facts that would prove otherwise feel free to list them here.

[MBTcustom]

Doesn't make sense. I'm an 07 manufacturer I do a few transfers for people but it's usually only two or so a month. However, the gunsmithing log book (the one that the ATF does not see unless they check it personally) is flowing much faster. Most of the transfers I do are for CCW permit holders, so those are not on the books either.
I just renewed my FFL no problem. It just doesn't make sense that they would not want to have tabs/record of what I'm doing because I'm going to be doing it anyway whether I volunteer my activities to the government or not.
It just seems like it's their loss if they cut off communication. The FFLs are their only window into the respectable gun community, and they can't stop gun deals from going down.

edit to add:
I'm real sorry this happened to you! Im just trying to understand their reasoning for not wanting your help gathering information. Very confusing

[Chrisg19]

Exactly, we aren't getting the full story.

[mditello]

Run a bunch of your friends through NICS and not sell them anything. What a dumb ***. No wonder he was revoked.

[snowwolfe]

Run a bunch of your friends through NICS and not sell them anything. What a dumb ***. No wonder he was revoked.

While your choice of words might not be appropriate I agree with your thoughts. Sounds like someone just wanted an FFL for their private use and the local ATF office thought otherwise. An FFL is supposed to be for someone who is ACTIVE in buying and selling. If you cant show a decent profit and a few sales or transfers every month then you shouldn't have an FFL.

[mold maker]

Since when does a FFL holder have to make a living off of just gun sales?
Do you know of an FFL holder who only deals in guns, or do they sell supplies and associated stuff?
That's like saying a grocer can only sell foods, and no mops, Raid, gloves, toys, etc.

[snowwolfe]

I didn't say an FFL has to make a living off just gun sales.

I said they need to show a decent profit and a few sales or transfers every month. At least that is what I would expect the ATF would want.

[historicfirearms]

Yet another member gets added to my ignore list...

I had an 01 ffl for a while, and personally gave it up because I wasn't doing enough business. The last year I had it I only sold 3 guns. The ATF did not ask for it back, I just didn't think it was worth the hassle anymore.

[MaryB]

Where did I say 5? DO NOT claim something I did not say! I said the market for $10k+ guns is limited and that is truth!



So do you think that all the FFL's that carry 10k guns only sell five per year? If you do you are wrong, class three items can be way more than that so try and name me one class three dealer that survives only selling five items a year. It cannot be done since that is not a legitimate business. Businesses have to make money to survive, 5 guns a year would not even pay overhead.

[shooter93]

Not contradicting you Mary but the 10k and up gun market is doing very very well actually.

[MaryB]

Where I live I can count on one hand the number of people who can afford $10k guns... and a few of them couldn't really afford it...

[mrvmax]

Yet another member gets added to my ignore list...

I had an 01 ffl for a while, and personally gave it up because I wasn't doing enough business. The last year I had it I only sold 3 guns. The ATF did not ask for it back, I just didn't think it was worth the hassle anymore.
Policies change and obviously have since you had yours, you cannot be licensed to only sell a handful each year, you have to prove it is a business. If you did that now they would revoke it.

[mrvmax]

Where did I say 5? DO NOT claim something I did not say! I said the market for $10k+ guns is limited and that is truth!
Calm down, I never quoted you I was asking you questions about your statements which you apparently can't answer and your statement about the market has already been refuted. Maybe where you live the market is limited but the class three business is doing well and people are still buying 50 cal Barrett's and high dollar rifles. Don't get bent out of shape again, I am not directing this at you but this is a general statement.There are too many know it alls that think they know how this works since they once had a license, have a friend/uncle/neighbor that has one or read about it on the Internet. Anyone that is actually informed of how the ATF licenses can see there is a bunch of BS stated here as facts.

[dakotashooter2]

It really has nothing to do with how many guns you sell. It's just the ATFs way of getting out of doing their job. It's too much work for them to monitor hobbyist FFLs who only sell a few guns a year so they just prohibit them. The purpose of the FFL is to ensure a seller is selling legally and filling out the paperwork. If they FFLs) are doing all that correctly it shouldn't matter if they are selling 1 gun or 1000 guns. It's simply an inconvenience for the ATF.. It's also not the feds jurisdiction to enforce a city's zoning requirements. If the FFLs location is not zoned for such a use the ATF should only pass that info along to the local jurisdiction.. not prohibit a license.