.45 ACP Keyhole

[ThaDave]

I have a box 500 230 grain .45 cal CLRN wax lubed Boolts I've been loading them but with terrible accuracy. They weigh in pretty much at 230 grains (+ or – a grain or two) and measure out to .452 dia. I have been loading them over 6.2, 6.4 and 6.6 grains of Power Pistol powder all Winchester LPP with the same results out of both my 1911s and my Springfield XD45 4”all resulting in shot patterns instead of groups and key holes (not two round touching but literally hitting the target sideways). I’ve shot as far as 25 yards with them, moved up to 10 yards and then as close as 3 yards and even at 3 yards from the muzzle you can still tell the hole is egg shaped and leaves excessive lead fouling in my bore. The brass is ejected clear of all my guns landing between about 4 and 8 feet away depending on the gun it was shot out of with no signs of high pressure.
At this point I am open to suggestions on how to tighten the group or at least some way to keep them pointed round part first and the flat part last. I did notice most of the round did stay on paper with the 6.6 grain charge at 25 unlike the other two charges. Should I keep going up to 7 grains (max) or what?

This pic was my 7 shot group from 10 yards with 6.6 grains seated to 1.210 COAL

142822

This one was shot from 3 yards

142823

[RobS]

9 out of 10 times key-holing is due to too small of a bullet in regards to bore diameter. I would check the diameter of the bullet and then the bore for starters. Pull a bullet (measure before you seat and crimp) from a dummy round to check the diameter the very edge of the base of the bullet.

[RobS]

What is the BHN hardness? If soft enough you might try and up the charge to see if you can upset or obturate the base of the bullet to fill the bore.

[ThaDave]

since I am having this problem out of three different pistols and I've measusred several bullets I'm still confused

[ThaDave]

What is the BHN hardness? If soft enough you might try and up the charge to see if you can upset or obturate the base of the bullet to fill the bore.


I dont know the BHN of them, I asked my dad if he still had the email from when he ordered them for me (awesome Christmas gift) but he didnt so I have no idea what brand they are either.

[sigep1764]

You ve said you measured several boolits, but have you measured one that has been seated, crimped, then pulled? That's first thing you should do. Second, I would slug the bore. This is done by taking just the lead projectile and pushing it through the bore with a brass rod. You should then measure the boolit at its widest point on the driving bands. You can then determine if the boolit is too small for you bores. Ideally the boolit should be 1 to 2 thousandths bigger than this measurement.

[RobS]

What company? Also what reloading dies are you using?

[RobS]

You ve said you measured several boolits, but have you measured one that has been seated, crimped, then pulled? That's first thing you should do. Second, I would slug the bore. This is done by taking just the lead projectile and pushing it through the bore with a brass rod. You should then measure the boolit at its widest point on the driving bands. You can then determine if the boolit is too small for you bores. Ideally the boolit should be 1 to 2 thousandths bigger than this measurement.


For proper results make sure the lead slug is pure lead and not a bullet. Additionally for the original poster make sure to oil the barrel and slug first.

[ThaDave]

I'll slug them when I get home tonight

[jcren]

Someone mentioned, but to expand on measuring a loaded/pulled bullet, especially the Lee fcd can swedge the bullet down quite a bit after it is in the brass.

[ThaDave]

I use the RCBS 3 die set

[mold maker]

Put a paper target in front of the wood. The grain of the wood may be playing with your head.

[ThaDave]

I dont have pictures of them but I first noticed the bullet profiled holes at all three ranges 25, 10, 3 yards on paper with cardboard backings with the same results

[MtGun44]

Tumbling is caused by a boolit not being stabilized. Usually too small diameter. Most .45s like .452 well.
Hardness in .45 ACP is essentially irrelevant in all that I own, but they are all 1911s, no idea about
Glocks or other oddballs.

Bill

[gloob]

since I am having this problem out of three different pistols and I've measusred several bullets I'm still confused
The common factors are the bullets and your loading dies/setup. Since the bullets measure fine, it's probably your loading process. Post #2. Pull some of your bullets. Measure the base. Something is wrong, there. The only other way you're getting tumbling is if all three of you gun's bores measure greater than 0.452. And you should buy a lottery ticket, if that's the case.

If you can tumble a bullet at 3 yards and the bullet IS ACTUALLY 452, then you have something extraordinary going on. And that might be something. Until you check, it's just plain old NOTHING. Just the regular bullet smaller than bore trick.

[ThaDave]

Is it possible that the velocity is just low enough that the bullet can't stabilize? I don't own a chronograph but it would seem to me that could be a common factor as well.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't rate of twist based on length of ogive and velocity? More than actual bullet weight.

[RobS]

Is it possible that the velocity is just low enough that the bullet can't stabilize? I don't own a chronograph but it would seem to me that could be a common factor as well.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't rate of twist based on length of ogive and velocity? More than actual bullet weight.

Very unlikely. Your lowest Power Pistol load of 6.2 grains/COAL of 1.210" should be going 725-750 fps.

[trixter]

I only know what works for me, 4.2gr Bullseye, over LEE TL-200-SWC, sized .452. After the loading process, the size of the case mouth OD is .268-.269 accomplished with RCBS seating die. I used to run Lee FCD and used the same setting, but I bought a Pro 2000, and RCBS carbide die set, plus the RCBS expander die and all works smooth as glass. These are shot out of a Springfield XDm. I have run the full gambit of powder charges from 6.5gr to 3.6gr (where the cycling was unreliable). I have not experienced any key-holing.

[Echo]

I don't see where the OP gave the diameter of the bullets. And ThaDave, what did you use to measure the diameter of the bullets? Calipers? Mikes? Or did you just assume they were what they were touted to be? The bullets are too small in diameter, period.

[fredj338]

9 out of 10 times key-holing is due to too small of a bullet in regards to bore diameter. I would check the diameter of the bullet and then the bore for starters. Pull a bullet (measure before you seat and crimp) from a dummy round to check the diameter the very edge of the base of the bullet.
^^THIS^^ I cast several diff bullets for the 45acp for 6 diff guns, 185gr-250gr. I have never seen this. I size all to .0452", regardless of the gun. My alloy is generally range scrap, about 10bhn. They get lubed with Randy's Tac or WL CR. I have run bullets all the way down to 700fps with good accuracy, never a keyhole. Never used PP but that shouldn't be the issue.
BHN rarely matters. I agree, measure the bullets, before & after loading. Make sure you aren't over crimping & reszing the bullet. Pull a bullet & measure it. I have seen some over crimped to measure 0.449", I am sure they shot like krap (pulling down stuff I find at the range).

[Reloader06]

Agreed, UNDER SIZED! It's possible that the expander plug is under sized. More likely it's over crimping that is the problem. Make a "Dummy" round or two and pull the boolits. Measure with a MICROMETER, not a caliper. I'll bet you a doughnut that the boolit is to small. Slugging the barrels would be good info also. It MIGHT help you fine tune the loads after you get this problem figured out. Good luck and keep us poasted on your progress.


Matt

[gloob]

Your bullet only starts out at 452 over an area referred to as the driving band. This is probably around 1/3" wide, towards the base end of the bullet.

The case can squish the back end of that driving band. The crimp die can squish the front end of that driving band. An FCD can squish the whole band.

When the round is fired, very hot gases get the back of the bullet nice and hot, but as long as the bullet seals the bore, the bullet will get out the muzzle before it melts. The heat capacity of the bullet is high enough that it would take a really, really long barrel before that could happen. It absorbs heat from the gas behind it, and there's a buffer zone of intermediate temperature at that junction.

But if the driving band is compromised badly enough, the gas is going to find a soft enough spot to push past the side of the bullet. Once that happens, a jet of heated gases streams past. That gas is at full temp. As soon as the bullet absorbs that heat, there's more gas streaming by, so there's no buffer of lower temp gas. This melts the bullet in the bore, leaving the fouling and causing the tumbling.

Your bullets are being squished by either the cases and/or the crimping die.

[BD]

The only things I know of that can cause a boolit to keyhole at very close range are:
1. The boolit is way undersized.
2. The boolit base is way out of square to the long axis of the projectile.

[Seeker]

Someone mentioned, but to expand on measuring a loaded/pulled bullet, especially the Lee fcd can swedge the bullet down quite a bit after it is in the brass.

My thoughts exactly. To OP...are you using a FCD by some chance?

[RobS]

My thoughts exactly. To OP...are you using a FCD by some chance?


I use the RCBS 3 die set

It doesn't sound like it.

[leeggen]

See if someone on here will send you some boolits in the 230gr 45's, then see if they keyhole.My bet is somebody will be glad to send some test boolits. Many have complain that mfg's of bullits make them extremely hard so they don't deform in shipping. Also where in the barrel is the leading, it can tell some good infor.
CD

[ThaDave]

I cast up some 200 grain SWC as well as some 230 JHPs. I'll take them out sometime this week and see how they do and post pictures. I also loaded some of the 230gr bullets that are giving me so much trouble to the max powder load of 7gr of power pistol powder and ran them through my Lee .452 sizing die.

The bullets I pulled from the dummy loads stilled measured about .450-.452.

Let's see how these work out.

[gloob]

Well, 0.450" is incredibly bad. Especially if that's at the base. There's a reason cast bullets are nominally 1 mil bigger than jacketed, not 1 mil smaller. Even a small dent in the driving band at .450 with the rest of the bullet being 452 can cause an issue. I have measured the same exact problem on 9mm bullets with observable resulting fouling and inaccuracy (only a small spot on the base at 354). 1 mil over doesn't allow room for error.

If you're sizing them DOWN to 452, and they're a full 452 after sizing, they should stay a full 452 after seating and pulling them, except for maybe a tiny ring right where you crimp them. If there's any leak, at all, cast bullets don't work. At least not as well as they could.

It is incredible the difference the right expander plug can make.

[RobS]

.450-.452 after pulled is.........ehhh. Power Pistol isn't the best at obturating the base as lets say Bulleye or some other faster powder in the similar burn rate. The faster powder has a peak pressure that happens sooner so the base of the boolit bumps up more rapidly and quicker in the bore than a slower powder such as Power Pistol. The best means to shooting cast boolits, if you ask me, is to not have to worry about obturation to seal the bore and have the boolit hit the lands .001-.002 over bore diameter eliminating chances of gas cutting.
You may have better success with the 200 grain SWC's as you might not be seating them as far into the case vs what you are doing with the 230 grain RNs. 1.210" COAL with the 230 RNs puts the base of the boolit quite a ways into the case and approaches web which is thicker and will have more affect of case swage on the boolit.

I've had an XD and unfortunately the barrels as well as many other auto's these days come from the manufactures with short and abrupt throats. Not a problem for jacketed bullets, cheaper tooling cost, and the manufactures don't care about people shooting cast boolits. It meets their requirements end point. Needless to say there are a few ways to fix what you have going on and in no particular order. I do know the avenue I would go but to each their own.

1) Ream your barrel's throat so the throat is longer and corrected for use of .452 cast boolits.

2) Shoot a design that you don't have a full diameter ogive sticking outside the case and can be seated with a longer COAL so there isn't as much of the base in the case. An example is the Lyman RN 452374 for a 230 grainer, there are several 200 grainers out there

3) Cast a boolit that is tough enough to withstand the case swage when seated deeper in the case.

4) Get a case expander plug that will expand as far into the case as your cast boolit will be seated. Make sure to get an expander .001-.002 under the cast boolit diameter. I prefer .001 myself.

I've done all four above at various times in my life for different firearms. Is there a better way vs another......maybe depends on who you ask.

[ThaDave]

Well no pictures (phone battery died) but I'll take some next time. I shot 5 of the 230 RN tumblers with a max charge of 7 grains they were still tumbling inside of about 5 yards, the 200 grain CLSWC and 230 JHP with a mid range load (I don't recall exact numbers but they are written down at the house) both shot great with no issues. I'm thinking the 230 grainers may get melted into my alloy and cast into something more useable.

Any recommendations for a good 230gr RN double or single mold?

[RobS]

Yes the Lyman 452374 or you can go with this one as I designed it to have little to no full diameter front drive band sticking outside the case.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-230V-D.png

Tom can make you anything in the catalog or you can also ask for a design to be made like I have done on several.

Lyman at MidwayUSA: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/384168/lyman-2-cavity-bullet-mold-452374-45-caliber-452-diameter-225-grain-round-nose

The problem with a current production Lyman mold is it will likely cast undersized unless you use Lyman #2 alloy or similar. Probably going to get a .452" boolit with WW alloy and 2% tin followed by the correct mold temp too. These days I prefer to have a mold cast at the diameter I want with the alloy I use so typically go with the various semi-custom/custom mold makers out there.

[RobS]

Right now at NOE he has a RN design on sale that is the H&G 34 copy.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/454230GrRNHG340024.jpg
It's been a proven boolit however I'm not a big fan of the offset ogive from the front drive band.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=41&sort=2a&page=6

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=64

[gloob]

......
......
......
?
......
Really?
The problem is the MOLD?
Your gun only shoots certain shapes of bullet?
Maybe you can try some of these:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181398-phillips-head-anyone
......
OK, then. Carry on.

[RobS]

......
......
......
?
......
Really?
The problem is the MOLD?
Your gun only shoots certain shapes of bullet?
......
OK, then. Carry on.


No I don't think he believes it is the design of the boolits per say however it is very possible that the 230 grain RN being seated so deep in the case created case swage as the boolit extended into the case near the web/head (tougher/thicker part). Probably why the 200 grain SWC he used had no issue with leading or keyholing. Should the original poster want a 230 grain mold the ones I suggest may serve him well for the firearms he has (the short throats). I also suggest 3 other possibilities to look into to remedy his situation.

[gloob]

Well you forgot the most popular trending "solution" for this particular problem. Powder coat. Lots o ways to fix this problem of cases that are too small. Least of which appears to be fixing the cases. Sure, why not buy a new $150.00 mold. That'll solve it for sure.

Edit: apologies for the sarcasm.
There seems to be a lack of fundamentals, here. Fix the actual problem, and it's fixed forever. Find a workaround by selecting a particular mold, and it might work OK for that particular bullet, but even then it is still not going to be as accurate if the base of the bullet is being damaged.

Harden alloy, and the bullet may be LESS damaged.
Choose a different bullet, and it may shoot ok, DESPITE being damaged.
Powder coat, ditto.
Ream out the throat, and you may avoid damaging the bullets, or you might not.

Fix the cases, and you are done with fouling and tumbling, and you will attain the highest accuracy.

[RobS]

Well you forgot the most popular trending "solution" for this particular problem. Powder coat. Lots o ways to fix this problem of cases that are too small. Least of which appears to be fixing the cases. Sure, why not buy a new $150.00 mold. That'll solve it for sure.

Edit: apologies for the sarcasm.
There seems to be a lack of fundamentals, here. Fix the actual problem, and it's fixed forever. Find a workaround by selecting a particular mold, and it might work OK for that particular bullet, but even then it is still not going to be as accurate if the base of the bullet is being damaged.

Harden alloy, and the bullet may be LESS damaged.
Choose a different bullet, and it may shoot ok, DESPITE being damaged.
Powder coat, ditto.
Ream out the throat, and you may avoid damaging the bullets, or you might not.

Fix the cases, and you are done with fouling and tumbling, and you will attain the highest accuracy.

Did you read post #30???? There was no problems with the 200 grain SWC that was just shot today. A 230 grain RN boolit is not a typical COAL at 1.21" Maybe at 1.26-1.27" Your means of using an expander is noted and is #4 in my no particular order list.

[gloob]

There was no problems with the 200 grain SWC that was just shot today.
No obvious problems. Not tumbling at short distances isn't the end-all gauge of perfect cast bullet shooting.

If his bullets are swaged at 1.21, they are probably swaged at 1.26-7, too, just to a lesser degree. The 45ACP case isn't particularly tapered, even at a whopping 6 hundredths of an inch deeper than usual.

The damage on the base of the bullet is cumulative from its entire trip down the case. That leading edge is what is expanding the case for the rest of the bullet.

If his driving band is totally shot at 1.21, there is still damage at 1.27.


Your means of using an expander is noted and is #4 in my no particular order list. You listed one solution and 3 bandaids. And OP has somehow decided, based on very limited information, that the solution is the bullet mold.

Based on the limited information I have, I am guessing his ammo shows a visible bulge at the base of the cast bullets.

[RobS]

For all information I actually do 3 of 4 I suggested as a regular practice. Do you suppose that in 1913 with the 452374 creation that at a 1.272 COAL it was for several reasons. I've seated this particular bullet at the suggested 1.272 length and then at 1.20-1.21 and yes the base of the bullet can have more damage or case swage at the shorter COAL with no expander and/or with the combination of having "softer" alloy.

As for myself, I have designed a bullet that is as the 230V shows and many other people have as well and even back in 1913 as Lincoln Riley did a design that is well know so not earth shattering. I have also turned my own expander plugs for my needs, again not earth shattering. This is useful especially with particular soft alloys for hollow points. Additionally, I have throated my pistols to help with ease of the boolit into the rifling as scraping of the boolit can and does happen with the way current production barrels are being manufactured.

I'm not arguing with you about this any longer since you are only fixed in on your expander plug solution which might I add is not a bad option and one that I myself utilize. The expander plug is not the only means here however and I've created the same accurate results with and without one. Your one solution to everything is not an end all and other alternatives do work and are not bandaids. It's been already proven by the original poster that another bullet design worked with nothing else changed.

So yes an expander plug can work.

[gloob]

An expander plug "can work." That's one way to put it. "It's not a bad option." That's another way to put it. Or you could say that it will fix the problem for all of one's 451 caliber guns and all bullets and all your alloys for a one time investment between 10 and 40 bucks, depending on what one has to work with to start.

Buy why not ream the barrel of one gun to start with for $50.00 to see if that helps? Why not buy a specific bullet mold for one gun to see if that helps? Yeah, I agree that "could work," too. And I'm not arguing. I'm stating the obvious.

If I appear "fixated" on "one solution," it's because there's only one solution. When your dies are causing the problem, messing with your guns isn't a solution. RCBS sends you a slightly tight die, so you feel the need to work your guns, bullets, and/or alloy around that one tiny problem that happen-stance created through a lousy $25.00 sizing die? Those things might be an improvement. But why not fix the foundation before working on the roof?

[Motor]

The OP in the OP stated that they leave excessive lead fouling in the barrel.

Correct the leading and you'll correct the key holing.

A 45acp should not be crimped in the true sense of the word. The "crimp" die should be adjusted to only remove the mouth flair. A diameter at the case mouth when using cast .452" boolits should never be under .471" if it is you are swaging.

Since the OP can shoot the .452" 200s its obvious that the problem boolits are either being reduced in size during the loading process or are being shot with too hot load causing blow by and leading. I leaning towards the first one.

Motor

[RobS]

gloob:

From the sound of things, the original poster is looking for a 230 grain mold anyway...............he has a 200 SWC and wants to look at a heavier mold (the 230 grain bullets he was using were commercial cast).

The list I provided in post #29 above was in no particular order and I mentioned that.
I never said an expander was a bad option.

Considering if the original poster was to have a 230 grain RN mold design like the commercial cast he was using the least expensive means might be to water quench a WW boolit or even size less tough boolits to a larger diameter or shoot as cast if possible as is done by many who size to .358 for 9mm. Before you get onto the issue with the boolit being swaged or damaged in the case upon seating and causing bad accuracy, as long as the boolit is .001 over the barrels diameter when it leaves the case the barrel does the final swage to it anyway. The case swage on the boolit is concentric so .001 over bore diameter is .001 over bore diameter and the barrel does the rest. I've yet to see any difference on a 45 acp target with the various ways I've mentioned to help maintain .001 over bore diameter boolits.

The original poster cast some of his 200 grain SWC's and he has now had success. I suggested some of 230 grain molds I did simply because he is wanting one. I never once said this was the best route. Note though with the designs I suggested it will allow for a longer COAL. Most 45 acp alloys, excluding really soft HP alloys, are able to withstand case swage without the need for special expander dies should the COAL be of a "normal" length. Imagine all the 45 acp rounds that has been assembled on a Lee 1000 and those fine folks are doing it no problems with nothing more than these three dies: sizing/decapping die, powder through die (which only flares the case) and a seat/crimp die.

[dudel]

Can you recover one of the fired boolits? Then you could see how well (or not) the rifling was engaging the boolit.

If the boolit is too small, powdercoating could bump them up a bit. It would be a messy process with already wax lubed boolits; but it could be done.

How do the base of the boolits look? If uneven, you'd see similar results.

How do the guns do with factory or jacketed rounds? If still bad, I'd take a look at the crowns. A damaged crown is going to make as much of a mess of accuracy as bad bases.

You say you have leading. How aggressive do you have to get to clean the barrels? How do you clean your barrels?

[ThaDave]

Ok let me put a couple things out there:
1) Thank you for all of your input I am reading and looking into what y'all are suggesting

2) Jacketed bullets and the 200gr SWC are shooting nicely out to 15 yards which due to where I was at was the furthest I could test them. I set up a "very scientific" redneck test, I used soda cans that were cut open and laid flat then taped to cardboard boxes I shot the 230gr tumblers (as I call them) with expected results. The 200gr SWC shot a little higher than the POA by maybe an inch or so and the 230 JHP shot POI or close enough and the bullets traveled straight in and out the back of the box without tumbling.

3) The reason I asked about a new 230 RN mold was because I like the classic look of the RN slugs in the .45 case and 230 FMJ shots very well in that pistol so I wanted to duplicate that but at a fraction of the cost. If I wanted to just shoot the 200gr SWC or buy FMJ/RN I would.

4) Cleaning the gun is done after every shooting session (USMC Brainwashing) for the lead fouling I use a 50/50 mix of H2o2 and Vinegar with a brass bore bush and tight fitting patches. I lube the pistol with CLP before putting it away

5) I have only recovered one bullet but it went through quite a bit of sand and it was hard to tell much from looking at it. I am collecting water bottles to try to catch one of each over the long weekend

6) COAL is 1.210 because when I had them seated at 1.270 they will not chamber in my pistol and even a few of these at 1.210 will not fully seat into battery after I have fired off a few dozen rounds.

7) Once again I would like to point out that I am not just shooting these rounds out of one pistol I have two 1911s and a Springfield XD and all are having similar problems. So I am 99% sure its not the crown or anyother part of the pistol however I did check the crowns on all 3 pistols and all are pretty and round no nick, dents or burrs. :)

I will see what the local gun shop (rip-off shop) has to offer as far as different powder options but I still have a good bit of the Power Pistol left so I’m really wanting to use that up before I add more to my stash.

I guess theres no way these could safely be sized down to work in a .44mag (.430) since they are too small for a .45 (.450-.452) lol if only life were so easy.

[oldfart1956]

RobS, just a small clarification. The Lee powder-thru dies do expand as well as flare the case. Just not enough (in some cases) for the oversize boolits we run. Run a case thru the resizing die and measure the area just below the mouth, then run it thru the powder thru expanding die and you'll note the difference. Noe has corrected this oversight from Lee with their oversize expanders for the powder thru dies. Audie...the Oldfart

[RobS]

RobS, just a small clarification. The Lee powder-thru dies do expand as well as flare the case. Just not enough (in some cases) for the oversize boolits we run. Run a case thru the resizing die and measure the area just below the mouth, then run it thru the powder thru expanding die and you'll note the difference. Noe has corrected this oversight from Lee with their oversize expanders for the powder thru dies. Audie...the Oldfart

Yes you are correct....the powder through die has about 3/16" at .4995" of an expander capability that sits below the flare part. Yes the powder through expander portion is longer however insignificant as the small diameter on the funnel end or nose is only to help guide the case and does not expand anything.

NOE does have powder through expanders that is to correct this however in 45 ACP the one I received from him didn't work out as the full diameter portion of the sleeve that slides in the main body of the die was too long. I had to turn it down and then also work on the expander spud to make it work. Maybe NOE has this fixed by now but the one I received was in need of some serious work. My Dad had received one the same time and he didn't even attempt to work on it; just took his out and put the original back in. He as done just fine and uses air cooled WW alloy.

[fredj338]

I cast up some 200 grain SWC as well as some 230 JHPs. I'll take them out sometime this week and see how they do and post pictures. I also loaded some of the 230gr bullets that are giving me so much trouble to the max powder load of 7gr of power pistol powder and ran them through my Lee .452 sizing die.

The bullets I pulled from the dummy loads stilled measured about .450-.452.

Let's see how these work out.
About isn't really good enough IMO. A bullet 0.002" undersized will likely keyhole. Bullet fit is king w/ lead & anything that screws with that is going to be bad.

[oldfart1956]

Yes you are correct....the powder through die has about 3/16" at .4995" of an expander capability that sits below the flare part. Yes the powder through expander portion is longer however insignificant as the small diameter on the funnel end or nose is only to help guide the case and does not expand anything.

NOE does have powder through expanders that is to correct this however in 45 ACP the one I received from him didn't work out as the full diameter portion of the sleeve that slides in the main body of the die was too long. I had to turn it down and then also work on the expander spud to make it work. Maybe NOE has this fixed by now but the one I received was in need of some serious work. My Dad had received one the same time and he didn't even attempt to work on it; just took his out and put the original back in. He as done just fine and uses air cooled WW alloy.Some excellent points Rob. As well as not expanding wide enough many of the expanders don't reach deep enough. And not just with the .45acp. The length on the 9mm expander is a joke and probably contributes to as many problems there as lack of girth. To use the H&G 503 in the .44 I bought a .43 Spanish expander from Track of the Wolf (.431 dia and a foot long) and made my own powder thru expander. I think (?) I'm using a modified .45 colt expander for the .45acp. Have the Pro 1000 set up for 9mm at present so will have to check. Audie...the forgetful Oldfart..

[ThaDave]

143599143600143601

So I decided to try and see if I could get these to go through a .44 mag (.430") sizing die. What I found interesting was the ring that came off the bullets were U shaped and not Round... I think I found my problem however I may be able to repurpose them into 228.5 grain loads for my H&R Handi-rifle in .44.

What say y'all?

[Cmm_3940]

You'll need to redo the tumble lube after sizing them down like that. With that smooth sided design, you'd be even better off powder coating them, especially at the higher velocities in your rifle.

[ThaDave]

I'm not set up to PC and with a possible move coming up at the end of the year I'm not spending much lately.

But Alox I do have. :-)