Land survey -shifting boundaries.

[ascast]

I would appreciate any insight you folks may have. Recently a neighbor sold a piece of land to his son to build a house on. The survey has shifted our common boundary about 20 feet; to my loss. The boundary was marked by a stone wall which has been there for about 200 years.
The piece lost is about 20 feet by 300 feet. Any advice on how to beat this would be appreciated.
dave

[popper]

Go to the county or state and get a copy of the original plat. Should have the boundary stated on it. Lots of 'errors' by surveyors, for their convenience. If there is proof the boundary changed, get a lawyer, before he builds a fence. You should also check with your title company, but they probably won't do anything.

[WILCO]

Contact an Attorney.

[snowwolfe]

Could be a legal battle to reclaim it but generally the law of public domain should rule in your favor as after a certain time period existing boundaries are accepted as law if they are not contested. After 200 years it should be in your favor provided you have owned it for a long time.
How long have you owned it? How long has the other guy owned his section?

[oneokie]

Check for laws regarding Adverse Posession and the time required.
Also, if the new survey was done with GPS satellite equipment, you have a can of worms to deal with.

[ascast]

thanks all
1) in family since about 1950ish
2) new survey was satellite GPS
3) he has owned for ? time, but just started house WITH survey this spring. He told me he would have to another done before final closing. I am not sure what that meant. I certainly would not build unless I was dang sure I owned it, even if my father currently owned it.

[OldFogey]

I agree with all of the above. Having been through a similar situation, It can get a little sticky. The laws regarding boundaries, adverse possession, etc. vary greatly from state to state. I would HIGHLY recommend that you contact an attorney who deals with real estate, deeds, title, etc. In some states, there is a very short time limit to make a challenge, other state a longer time.

Rick

[jcwit]

Time to start looking into the Grandfather laws in your state.

[garym1a2]

Just get a survey done, check the plats. If its true that the lot line shifts, I am not a fan of adverse possession. Than is just another way of saying stealing someones property.
Besides, iif you loose 20 feet on one side than you probally gain 20 feet on the other side of your property.

[rancher1913]

around here existing fences trump survey's, but it varies from state to state.

[ascast]

Just get a survey done, check the plats. If its true that the lot line shifts, I am not a fan of adverse possession. Than is just another way of saying stealing someones property.
Besides, iif you loose 20 feet on one side than you probally gain 20 feet on the other side of your property.

A survey done by me will only pick up the same data points as his-- will only lighten my wallet.
I will not pick up 20 feet on the other side as it is a small fractional acre lot and the "other side" is bounded by a public highway. Otherwise, the other side is about 1500 yards away and bounded by an abandoned road, all mine and in a couple different deeds.

So, I just plain loose.

[Tackleberry41]

Some states you seldom see this, in Fla they require a survey every time land changes hands. But it is a relatively new state, you don't see much land down there that has been deeded for 200 yrs. Here in TN it is rarely done, even on relatively new homes, one would think the bank would care but don't seem to. But when surveys are done, they usually reveal fences and such are in the wrong place. They usually go where its easier, I know back of my property I get an extra 40 ft deep because of the fence, hard to run it thru a creek bed.

Only real option is the courts. Survey says thats where the line is, guaranteed the owner will make sure it stays that way. And very likely if you do go to court, the relationship with that neighbor will turn a bit sour.

[sparky45]

Have you been paying the property taxes on the land all these years? If so, your local county authority with have their own maps and indicators as to where the original survey starting point began. That might be helpful.

[Gunor]

Surveys - If shifted 20 feet - what method did the surveyor use to resolve the boundary? What monuments did he hold? Might be worth talking to another local surveyor to review the new survey. Not all surveyors come up with the same answer. Couple professional hours of good local surveyor will be cheaper than a land-use lawyer.

Geoff in Oregon (P.E.)

[bob208]

get a gps and walk it off your self. if you are right then see a lawyer. now a days with gps surveyors are redundant. my thought is after going to school they do the survey then put in more or less. so does this mean I just did a guess ? on your pay check is it stated as more or less? is your car repaired more or less?

[oneokie]

get a gps and walk it off your self. if you are right then see a lawyer. now a days with gps surveyors are redundant. my thought is after going to school they do the survey then put in more or less. so does this mean I just did a guess ? on your pay check is it stated as more or less? is your car repaired more or less?
Unless your handheld or other gps is accurate to less than 1 inch, a waste of time and effort.

[Blacksmith]

Surveyors make mistakes and not all surveys get the same answers, there are different types of surveys. Pay for your own survey and get the boundaries marked. A good surveyor will look at the title history to be sure things didn't get accidentally transposed when being recorded. You will end up paying for it anyway if you get a lawyer and go to court.

[doc1876]

Here if you have been the caretaker of a property for several years (10???) You can claim possession of it.

[buckwheatpaul]

Had a similar issue. You can have your own survey done....at your cost....then if necessary get a lawyer and go to court.....Do you know where your survey pins, pipe etc markers are located......

[dtknowles]

I would appreciate any insight you folks may have. Recently a neighbor sold a piece of land to his son to build a house on. The survey has shifted our common boundary about 20 feet; to my loss. The boundary was marked by a stone wall which has been there for about 200 years.
The piece lost is about 20 feet by 300 feet. Any advice on how to beat this would be appreciated.
dave

So what does this stone wall look like? Does the new owner think he owns property on both sides of this stone wall? Does he intend to make any changes to the stone wall? Did the previous owner ever set foot on your side of the stone wall or do any maintenance on your side of the stone wall? When the new owner builds on the site, does he intend to build close to the stone wall? How did you become aware of the survey? Do you have a prior survey?

You understand if the land is truly yours but he intends to claim it, it will cost you something to keep it.

Tim

[onceabull]

It's been my personal experience with surveyors that the person paying the bill gets the result he seeks. fwiw, oNCEABULL

[knfmn]

Sounds like you have a smallish piece of land, anyhow. I'm a disagreeable person, so I'd get it resurveyed and/or head for court if need be.

[shooter93]

I've been through this a couple of times with customers and a friend. Here we hired a surveyor......there are huge differences in pricing so call several, it was only a few hundred dollars for us..... They found in most cases a benchmark done by the US government not too far from the lot. It was then surveyed from that known and not disputed point and in every case the customer won. The problem in one case was the guy encroaching had a survey and one of the markers used was.....the old oak tree at such and such. The tree was 6 feet across and at the time of the original deed it was much smaller. That accounted for my customers losing 6 feet. These things while the seem like small matters can drastically effect your future use of your property should you decide you want to add on or something similar.

[winchester85]

around here (colorado) the original survey markers placed in the late 1800's and early 1900's whether placed perfectly or not, supercede any "new" points.

i have a similar issue right now, property to the west was surveyed in 2007, they moved my corner 108 feet to the east. i figured if the one side moved, the other side should too. so i had it checked, turns out the entire subdivision was layed out off the wrong point. my corner is an original stone monument, at the time it had been located but was not filed with the state. now it is filed with the state as the quarter corner. the distance from that corner to the next section corner is off of the original maps, so all the lots that have a border on that line get their corner to corner distance prorated as a % of the discrepancy. my neighbor to the east has their fence 42 feet on to my property. they hired a surveyor last year when i demanded that they move it, but their surveyor did NOT do any recalculating to account for the error in the plat. he did not want to hear it when i told him that the section corner used to layout the subdivision was incorrect. my surveyor suggested i file a complaint against him for knowingly failing to account for errors in the original plat.

my attorney just today sent out a demand letter to my neighbors for removal of their fence. i would not have bothered except for the fact the neighbors have cost me $30k in legal fees by accusing me of a crime that i did not commit and one they had zero proof of.

[labradigger1]

Plat maps are commonly incorrect.
Imo, fences, weather stone or wood/wire will remain in the same location for centuries. It is much easier to maintain a fence rather than move it.
Have it surveyed with old school surveying equipment and use rods and poles for you bearings from true or due north.
Compare these bearing points to the gps points.
Get a lawyer.
I have personally in my profession seen gps points flawed.
Lab

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Get your own surveyor, one who does not use GIS/GPS. Then discuss with neighbor, then and only then would I get a lawyer.
CF

[phonejack]

I just went thru that. Concerning Adverse Possession, if you have been paying property taxes and have not talked to the other property owner, the original line stands. Even if they have improved or maintained the disputed area. That's in my state though.

[akajun]

I used to work with my dad as a surveyor , he specialized in property that was often in question. Often times a surveyor has to hunt for points far from the customers property if irons are missing . In LA, the simple act of prescription/ adverse possession is 35 years and you must file suit to take possession .
Also whats " on the ground" often takes precedence over what's at the courthouse. Meaning if your original irons are 250 feet apart but your deed and courthouse show they are 260, the actual ground measurement takes precedent. Keep in mind that until the 80's most surveys were done with old transit and chains . Not all were done properly, but we often found many that closed within a tenth. However modern laser transits and now gps is revealing a lot of poor surveys.
What I would do is to call the surveyor and have him meet you on the property with your map and his . Get him to show you why he did what he did and the points he used for reference. If he can't explain it to your liking, then hire a land title attorney, who will hire a surveyor .
Mall this can get real expensive real fast though.

[762 shooter]

Your property boundary should be described in your deed. That is what surveyors use to determine property lines. Not what you thought your boundary was, not where your neighbor thought the property lines were, but what is described in your deed.

Surveyors have very little discretion to "move" property lines. If you live in a place where you can determine where you want your property lines by hiring a "personal" surveyor, your surveyors aren't doing their job.

Professional surveyor since 1970.

762

[leeggen]

I have seen GPS survey equipment that was not calibrated correctly. Our local guy checks his heads every few days. We have a gps state marker that is used for calibrating When I lived in Fl. they done a survey and in our neighberhood they used the railroad tracks. What very few new was that the track that origanlly was used had been removed about 20 yrs priour to our new survey there was a 40 ft mistake in 75 propertys. You just never know what mistakes were made years ago. The worst line markers are , that oak, this fence, that pile of rock so on and so on, very easy to move. I suggest that you get a copy of his deed and your deed and see what the wording is for the line in question.
CD

[wv109323]

Ask a land surveyor to examine your deed or plat. If your plat "closes" meaning that if all the boundaries are followed around the perimeter you will end up at the exact point you started. If it does then you most likely have an accurate map.
Magnetic north changes with time so a modern survey needs to be corrected to when the original survey was made.
In my state an accurate plat supersedes a written description even if the written description is newer. Established markers may supersede a plat . "Squatters right" after 7 years supersedes all.

[runfiverun]

get a survey of your property and get the 20 feet off the other side.
we had a survey done a few years back and our whole property line shifted west about 12 feet in from the east and out to the west.

[MaryB]

Farmers who farm 2 sides of my lot were claiming I was way onto their field and they were going to plow my backyard. They were claiming my property line was middle of the street and not the edge of the road even though I have a plat map that goes back to when Grant was president(indian land grant). City finally told them that if they moved onto that land they would take action because 20 feet of it is a city owned alley easement. They wanted to move 33 feet(half street width) into my backyard!

Around here they go off of the iron spikes at the section corners to measure from. Even if it is off for what GPS says. I know where the spike is for here, it is on the corner of my block as I go into town! So I found it then measured everything and if I wanted to be a jerk I could take 10 feet of their field in back!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Only real option is the courts. Survey says thats where the line is, guaranteed the owner will make sure it stays that way. And very likely if you do go to court, the relationship with that neighbor will turn a bit sour.

I don't know the state law on the subject, although it does sound plausible that 200 years of habitual use, with a wall, might give you rights even if some long-dead surveyor made a mistake. I think you need qualified legal advice, and photos and witnesses to the location of the wall if it is out of plain view, in case it goes. If the other party has proceeded by the light of nature, so much the worse for him.

But the other party certainly didn't plan on getting the land without the relationship turning sour. The only way out of that is by giving him what he wants, and that doesn't sound like an option.

[ascast]

thanks all for comments; some goods in the mix. I have dropped a letter to a lawyer I have used for land issues before. The first discussion will be cheap, or free I am sure. He is also a farmer and I am sure has dealt with this very issue himself.
I give you all some brief updated as we go along. It seems to be a common topic.

[sparky45]

Land I purchased 35 years ago and built our home on was surveyed by the sellers agent, literally the County Appraiser at the time. Through the years I have purchased two additional adjoining parcels of land from two different sellers and when I had said acreage surveyed found out that I was allowed to buy some of my property 3 times, that's how screwed up the "original survey" turned out. I wasn't duped in my purchase, was forewarning that the land I was adding more than likely wasn't surveyed correctly, but also told this is the price if you want to buy. Starting corner is off the center of a highway to my east.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

How Boundaries are determined vary from state to state. If you are on good terms with your neighbor the simplest way to resolve this is a "fence line boundary agreement." Basically regardless of what the boundary is you both are to honor the fence or in this case the stone wall. If you are not on good terms with your neighbor at least get him to hold off until you get a second opinion from another surveyor. Don't waist your money on an attorney just yet (they will only tell you to hire another surveyor.). Hire a surveyor with a solid reputation and be up front about the conflict. This will not be a cheap survey, but it will be cheaper than going to court and getting attorneys involved. If the second surveyor goes into conflict with your neighbors survey and places the boundary back at the stone wall you will literally have some ground to stand on if you need to settle in court.

Also ask your self what 20ft is worth? Right or wrong if you go to court it is expensive and you might still walk away with an answer you are not happy with.

Ultimately the best thing is if all parties that hold title to the land in dispute can talk and work things out in a civil matter.

[Beerd]

Surveyors have very little discretion to "move" property lines. If you live in a place where you can determine where you want your property lines by hiring a "personal" surveyor, your surveyors aren't doing their job. And you State Licensing Board isn't doing its job either.

Did your neighbor hire a Professional Land Surveyor? Or did he get Bubba to mark the line with a hand-held GPS & a Google earth map?
If it was the former he has some 'splaining to do. There may be a very good reason he staked the line where he did. If his logic for ignoring the long established fence sounds fishy to you, then hire your own professional be it a surveyor or attorney.
Now if Bubba did the "survey" I'm surprised he got it as close as he did.
..

[TXGunNut]

Surveyors aren't cheap but they are cheaper than lawyers, in most cases. Sounds like a simple mistake to me, just need to figure out if it was made on the new survey or the old one.

[dakotashooter2]

You also have to consider if either property really was ever surveyed. The government probably surveyed down to the "section" but beyond that maybe none of the smaller parcels were surveyed. Original owners might have agreed on the boundary and or measured it to the best of their ability and left it at that. In my community all the original blocks are off by 3'. Our blocks are supposed to be 300' and are 303'. The surveyors have just been correcting lots within the blocks as they do them. Without correction some of our roads would probably be on private property. Even with GPS lots of adjustments need to be figured in before you start. I know with elevations there are a couple different data bases to work from and your results will vary depending on which data base you use. I suspect surveying operates the same. I suspect with GPS a central data point within the US is the base and each state has corrections to reconcile their own data. If not done correctly the survey will be off. A surveyor I have worked with is always talking about reconciling data points.

[oneokie]

One thing that has not been mentioned; Is that part of NY state surveyed by metes and bounds or civil survey?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would appreciate any insight you folks may have. Recently a neighbor sold a piece of land to his son to build a house on. The survey has shifted our common boundary about 20 feet; to my loss. The boundary was marked by a stone wall which has been there for about 200 years.
The piece lost is about 20 feet by 300 feet. Any advice on how to beat this would be appreciated.
dave

Have they actually done anything on that strip of land, or just informed you of their claim? A father-to-son sale, in which in most circles would mean neither being likely to sue the other, would particularly lend itself to a try-on in which they will do nothing unless you panic and agree to it.

[Beerd]

New York is metes & bounds state; it's not part of the Public Land Survey System with Townships, Ranges & Sections.
This land could very well be a small portion of a much larger 300 or 400 year old grant from an English King.
As these grants were broken up it was very common to construct a field stone wall to delineate the line between different owners.
If a real surveyor was involved with this latest work they should be able and willing to explain this if you ask.
..

[butch2570]

Same thing happened here a few years ago where my line cornered ,2 neighbors , the one having the surveying done was heir to about 35 acres and had paid taxes on such for about 10 years but didn't live there. Once they moved here and had the surveying done he lost about 30' x 200' to the other neighbor because of the rolling hollows and hills with the new Gps system. The land losing neighbor took it to court, the judge ruled in favor of the land gaining neighbor. The losing neighbor argued he had payed taxes on it ,according to deed and he wanted a refund for 10 years worth of tax charges on something he now doesn't own.. Judge told him to read the last paragraph on the deed, it says " more or less", and that was the final decision . Took a nice little rectangular piece from him, right in the corner of his hay field.

[Duckiller]

They're a whole bunch of people on this site that are not Land Surveyors or Civil Engineers that can do surveys. Nor do we have many lawyers that specialize in boundry law. A proper land survey is not bubba walking around with a GPS. Find a Licienced Surveyor/Civil Engineer who knows what he is doing and see if he agrees with your neighbour’s surveyor. If they agree you are probably out of luck. If they disagree then it is either compromise time or lawyer in court time. If you compromise on a new property line then have your surveyors measure it ,tie it off and your lawyer should prepare Quitclaim deeds to make a record of where the two of you want the line. Land laws vary from State to State. Methods of measurement don't. The original 13 colonies boundries are based on royal land grants and subsequent metes and bounds descriptions. Some lots were made when frams were subdivided by tract /parcel maps. Original Northwest territories and land west were done on a range and township system until you get to areas covered by Spanish Land Grants. Treaty of Guadalupe perpetuates original grant boundries. Areas not covered by grants were subdivided using range and townships, ie sectionalized land.
Bottom line if you object to new line see a Licensed Surveyor and land law attorney that you trust. Spend a little money for their opinions then decide what you want to do.

[MaryB]

Just checked the plat map online for my town... according to it the east side of my house is like 1 foot from the property line at most!Lots of houses in town that way! Places with garages centered on property lines... messed up!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Not sure how official the "plat map" is you checked on line. Here in TX nothing has caused more disputes (and given me more jobs) than the various online tax/plat maps with the current aerial images imposed underneath the line work. At least four times a week someone calls up with a disagreement with their neighbor who just had a survey that differs from some online image. Not saying you are wrong, but you need to get a professional surveyor out there on the ground, and try speaking with your neighbor.

[10x]

The boundaries will be described on your title.
Your title is a legal document.
Have your land surveyed as per your title description.
If the other parties surveyor made an error, you should be able to request the costs of your survey and legal expenses.

[762 shooter]

Maryb,

If you are looking at tax maps or GIS, be sure to read the county disclaimer.

762

[Tackleberry41]

Was just listening to someone at the gym today with same sort of problem. His neighbor got a survey done, and now lays claim to part of his driveway, is wanting $20,000 to buy the strip of land or lose his driveway. Guess the guy has been trying to sell a while and is looking to recoup some of the money he lost buying over priced land before the market went bad.

[butch2570]

They're a whole bunch of people on this site that are not Land Surveyors or Civil Engineers that can do surveys. Nor do we have many lawyers that specialize in boundry law. A proper land survey is not bubba walking around with a GPS. Find a Licienced Surveyor/Civil Engineer who knows what he is doing and see if he agrees with your neighbour’s surveyor. If they agree you are probably out of luck. If they disagree then it is either compromise time or lawyer in court time. If you compromise on a new property line then have your surveyors measure it ,tie it off and your lawyer should prepare Quitclaim deeds to make a record of where the two of you want the line. Land laws vary from State to State. Methods of measurement don't. The original 13 colonies boundries are based on royal land grants and subsequent metes and bounds descriptions. Some lots were made when frams were subdivided by tract /parcel maps. Original Northwest territories and land west were done on a range and township system until you get to areas covered by Spanish Land Grants. Treaty of Guadalupe perpetuates original grant boundries. Areas not covered by grants were subdivided using range and townships, ie sectionalized land.
Bottom line if you object to new line see a Licensed Surveyor and land law attorney that you trust. Spend a little money for their opinions then decide what you want to do. I didn't claim to be anything, I'm telling you what happened here at my corner , between my 2 neighbors. The old deed called for X number of feet to a old fence line bordering the hay field, It WAS surveyed by a licensed surveyor for the neighbor that ended up losing land , then again, by the land gaining neighbor. But the specified footage was not to the fence, as specified by the deed, because of the dip in the hollow , and they shot it straight across from the other corner, it came into the field by a 30' margin and run the length of the field. That's all I can tell you, this was a very old deed, but the footage and land mark didn't correspond and has been this way for decades, the land gaining neighbor has lived here since 1948. The end result was lawyers and court and he still gained the property.

[MaryB]

I got out the 300 foot measuring tape today... lines are right after I re-found the corner marker. Side street is 25 feet narrower than what is platted so it throws things off. I am willing to bet when they built the houses and decided lines they went off the edge of the sidewalk and it is about 15 feet off where it should be.


Not sure how official the "plat map" is you checked on line. Here in TX nothing has caused more disputes (and given me more jobs) than the various online tax/plat maps with the current aerial images imposed underneath the line work. At least four times a week someone calls up with a disagreement with their neighbor who just had a survey that differs from some online image. Not saying you are wrong, but you need to get a professional surveyor out there on the ground, and try speaking with your neighbor.