Rocks?

[Mr Peabody]

I see sawn agate and chipped flint for sale. Is there much difference in performance on a flintlock rifle?

[Omnivore]

Everything I've heard says that good English flint is the best. Call Track of the Wolf, or any other good supplier to the flintlock shooter, and they'll explain it.

[toot]

sawn agate will give you 50 to 100 shots but the down side is it will eat you're frizzen up!.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting, Thanks

[Eddie2002]

Chipped flint was produced going with the grain of the flint and tends to work better than sawn flint. Each piece of flint is different and you might need to try a few before you have a winner. I use a tan Arkansas flint that is a bit gritty but it really sparks nicely, if you are serious you need to learn how to knap your own.

[Whiterabbit]

my first flints were all sawn cause that was available locally, I didn't want to buy online (I never like buying online). They gave me ~5 shots before dulling, they didn't chip right, had to be thrown away about immediately. There was no way to baby them along, which REALLY is crappy when you end up with a loaded rifle and a dull flint.

Maybe it's just be but using good quality English flints, I got about triple the performance as the sawn. The French flints that seem to have a cult following give me 80-100 shots (80 is an easy number) and knap very easy with minimal material loss and keep me shooting. And when one finally gives up the ghost I can usually baby it along for one last shot to clear the gun at get home safe. These days, I only use French flints. English are OK. But I'll go home with a clean gun if I only have sawn agate.

Bottom line: If you are serious about shooting your flinter for the long term, buy yourself a sampler of flints. English, French, whatever you can find. But not the agate. Never the agate. test your natural stuff and stick with what the gun likes best. But you're wasting your money buying sawn agate.

[Lead Fred]

Have not bought commerical flints in decades. There is a guy over at the traditional flintlock forums that makes better ones than Ive ever seen
At $14 a dozen, Ive got lots of them.

[rfd]

knapped flints are simply better than cut flints. i knap mine from good ol' georgetown texas chert ...

http://i.imgur.com/PYTGC0j.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FjlYB7Y.jpg

[Mr Peabody]

Outstanding information! I've hunted percussion guns since the mid 70's. Last week I bought a very clean used Lyman Great Plains flint lock. It's got a sawn flint in the hammer now and I was curious about that. I thought the spark was marginal watching it. Now I have some thoughts to go with.

[fouronesix]

Lots of various opinions- huh. And, as always, lots of absolutes too. This topic seems to create such.

Even though flintlocks are relatively simple in the sense they only require some form of "rock" to create tiny particles of incandescent metal for igniting exposed BP and don't require a manufactured cap- they are extremely reliant on just the right interaction between the flint and the face of the frizzen.

What is commonly left out of, especially the "absolute" recommendations, is the frizzen itself. You can strike the best flint in the world across the face of a marginal frizzen and/or do it at the wrong angle and end up at the same place- poor performance.

The best way to figure it all out is to start with a couple of different types/styles of flint and experiment with all the variables involved- not only the type of flint but all the variables. It's pretty easy to test these by dry firing in a dark room. Easy to see the amount of spark shower and the direction of them without having to charge the gun. Watch the shower for quantity and where most go. Most of the shower should go right down into the pan.

[rfd]

yes, the frizzen is the important other half of the sparking process as it's the host that gives up the hot metal spark. for me, cut "flint" isn't as durable nor carries as sharp an edge as very sharp knapped flint, nor can it be knapped as quickly (if it doesn't crumble in the process) as the better stuff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N1EyHIZe4o

[bedbugbilly]

I bought some sawn agate "flints" a number of years ago when I was down at the Nationals at Friendsihip just to see what they were "all about". I did'nt like them - I was using a Durs Egg lock. I think I bought three - I tried one and quickly went back to the good English flints. I threw the other two in with my flint and steel kit - didn't like 'em for that either and went back to using my "used" Fusil de Chasse large flints for fire making. I think the sawn agate flints were tossed as far as I could throw "em somewhere out in the woods. :-)

[Bad Water Bill]

And a little FYI only.

strike a piece of iron pyrite with a piece of agate in a dark room.

If that does not look like the 4th of July you are going blind.:shock:

Just the fragrance will make all B P folks smile.:bigsmyl2:

[Geezer in NH]

I love the very pretty French's myself

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks, I'm trying some knapped English flints from Buffalo Arms.

[Boogieman]

I've had good luck with english flints from Track of the wolf.

[quilbilly]

As a rockhound and occasional flintlock user, I can say all agates, jaspers, and flints are not equal. You just have to test your rocks. I have seen some agates that were great and others that barely sparked with the same being true of jaspers. The best sparker I have tried is obsidian but it is too brittle for more than one shot (better to be knapped into a knife to dress your game).

[Bad Water Bill]

Many years ago I was digging at the Pink Princess mine in northern Ca.

Several diggers next to us found a 300# obsidian boulder.

No they would not trade even one chunk.

They were associated with some well known (at that time)eye surgeons.

According to them properly knapped chips do not CUT thru but separate the cells thus insure quicker healing and virtually no scarring.

Yes my daughter was proof of their statement.

I still have a nice 80-90# hunk of BLUE sheen sitting in my place.

I have no idea what will ever happen to it because most skilled craftsmen that I ever knew are all gone.

[Mr Peabody]

I went out and shot this rifle today and It was a good experience! No hang fires or misfires, and 80grs of FFFg put 3 shots touching at 50 yards. Now I'll try 100 yards and come back to earth.

[waksupi]

As a rockhound and occasional flintlock user, I can say all agates, jaspers, and flints are not equal. You just have to test your rocks. I have seen some agates that were great and others that barely sparked with the same being true of jaspers. The best sparker I have tried is obsidian but it is too brittle for more than one shot (better to be knapped into a knife to dress your game).

I'd never thought of obsidian as a spark source. I just went out to the shop with my striker to try it. Darned if it doesn't spark pretty well!

[OverMax]

I've been using Pierce flint for a while. Always a nice shower of spark.

[fouronesix]

Yes, I use some of Rich Pierce's white chert flints in a couple of my guns. They do spark well but flake and chip in odd ways. If they don't chip out on the long axis, I can usually re-shape and re-vitalize them by dressing on a wet diamond wheel. If they fracture the wrong way, I just grab another because they are very inexpensive.

[waksupi]

Rich's flints spark very well, but it seems I was getting a lot of frizzen wear from them. I just keep them for emergency use now.

[Lead Fred]

I bought 3 sawn, and after 8 shots, the frizzen broke. No rifle for 10 months.
Been using chipped ever since, Ive had the same frizzen for over a decade now.

BTW whom ever's video that is above. The rock isnt sposed to run straight on into the frizzen, sposed to rake it from top to bottom
Either the rock isnt at the right angle, or the spring is too stiff.
Thats what broke my frizzen, and why Ill never own another production imported rifle again

[rfd]

....

BTW whom ever's video that is above. The rock isnt sposed to run straight on into the frizzen, sposed to rake it from top to bottom
Either the rock isnt at the right angle, or the spring is too stiff.
Thats what broke my frizzen, and why Ill never own another production imported rifle again

no, actually the flint did "rake" the frizzen as you can see in this frozen frame that shows the ghost of the flint cocked and then as it came down to slice metal off the frizzen ...

http://i.imgur.com/rB85u7E.png

... nothing like texas georgetown chert to throw good sparks.

i took the following text off an ml forum years ago, i like what this feller hasta say about flints and his words still ring true for me today ...

One thing I might mention about dressing flints is that I don't do that anymore because I don't find it necessary. Any easy way to knap your flint that I learned years ago from Paul V (please don't ask me to spell his last name) on the other forum was called "hammering" the flint. You do that easing the frizzen up and lowering the cock until your flint just hits the bottom edge of the frizzen. Not above the bottom but right at it. Then, holding your frizzen in place with your thumb, cock and fire the lock. The flint hits the bottom edge of the frizzen and your flint is knapped evenly all the way across.

Another thing you can do to avoid the need of knapping the flint is adjust the angle that the flint initially strikes the frizzen to make sure it hits at a 55° to 60° angle. At that angle the flint will make a slicing motion against the frizzen. Flip bevel up or bevel down, move the flint forward or back as needed until you get that angle and you will rarely need to hammer the flint. If your flint strikes the frizzen at too abrupt an angle (~45° or less) it crushes the edge of the flint into the frizzen instead of slicing, doesn't spark well, and results in round flints, which I believe was the reason for this thread on renewing flints. Conversely, if you make the angle too steep on the flint it will hit the top of the flint instead of the edge and will break off huge chunks of flint. But get that 55° to 60° angle and the only thing you'll need to worry about with your flints is wiping the fouling off of the underside of the flint from time to time.

I also learned that from Paul and it made a huge difference in the reliability and performance of my flintlock. I really do not spend any time dressing my flints anymore.

[fouronesix]

Never could figure out the precise strike angle thing. One thing that needs to happen for best results is the flint should strike about 3/4 of the way up the frizzen face. AND, at whatever angle which doesn't shatter the flint yet allows the flint to do its job of scraping the tiny metal particles off the frizzen face thus creating the incendiary metal sparks that ignite the pan powder.

I've tried about every kind of material for the flint. Most anything harder than the face metal itself will spark by shaving those metal particles off the frizzen face. So all combined, the flint and frizzen have to work in combination for the best result. I can personally tell little difference between various natural stone flint materials and the rate of frizzen wear- either cut or knapped. After all there HAS to be some frizzen wear in order to create the incendiary metal particles that ARE the sparks. Obviously given the various types of "rocks" available that will work, one good additional criteria is the relative toughness of the flint in resisting fracture during repeated strikes against the frizzen. Volcanic glass (obsidian) will shave metal particles (creating sparks) very well but seems to lack the "toughness" for surviving repeated strikes.

As far as I can tell from trial and error, the flint material that really wears the frizzen more aggressively than other flints, either cut or knapped, is the composite man made "flint" that appears to be similar to a carborundum material in a matrix. They are cut and of very dark color. While their perceived downside is faster frizzen wear their upsides seem to be excellent spark production and relatively long life.

[nagantguy]

I've said ed this post to my favorites, thanks gents this is great stuff, looking to go down the flint/trade gun route very soon, as soon as the master bathroom has drywall and running water I'll have a little time and a little pocket jingle and that's what I want is a smooth bore flintlock.

[rfd]

muskets are waaay cool. this is my second that keb at m&h just built and i was lucky to acquire. an early trade smoothie in .58 with a chambers early ketland lock. holy krap, a dry fire with that lock is like an explosion of sparks! i can prime it with 2f and she still pops off clean. with flinters, it's all about the lock and its timing, and the better it and the flint is, the better the ignition.

http://i.imgur.com/PQfoQTg.png

http://i.imgur.com/cEGLGgd.png

http://i.imgur.com/hSAEBHU.png

[EMC45]

Beautiful arm there RFD!

[True.grit]

This is a great thread it should be a sticky.

[Old Scribe]

Have not bought commerical flints in decades. There is a guy over at the traditional flintlock forums that makes better ones than Ive ever seen
At $14 a dozen, Ive got lots of them.

Lead Fred-what forum are you refering to? At $14/dozen I'd get a couple dozen...if you've had good success with the flints.

[Bad Water Bill]

I would like to see how anyone can travel to the location,dig the rocks,clean them,read and split with the grain then knapp them to fit and show a profit for a dozen at todays wages?

[Hang Fire]

I used to haunt rock shows and buy sliced broken or flawed Brazilian agate for next to nothing, I now have more than a lifetime supply. Already being the right thickness, with a cheap wet diamond saw, they are easily sawn as to shape and size and spark like crazy.

[waksupi]

145170
I would like to see how anyone can travel to the location,dig the rocks,clean them,read and split with the grain then knapp them to fit and show a profit for a dozen at todays wages?

For a good lithic artist, they could make a good living. A couple guys around here can turn out arrow and atlatl points at the rate of 2-3 per hour, and they are good quality. At $5 per inch, they would average out pretty good wages. When they were making rifle flints in a demonstration this past weekend, they were generating probably $30-40 per hours worth.

This is some of the work they were turning out.

[Texantothecore]

I am fairly close to Georgetown Texas. Will check some chert.

[Maven]

Rich Pierce is semi-retired, but look at this site for 3 types of "flint": http://www.neolithics.com/gun-flints/

[Texantothecore]

Thanks Maven. I think I will go ahead with a flintlock (T/C?) and if it goes well will go ahead with a Chambers a bit later. Your post is a real game changer for me.

Thanks again.
Mike

[Maven]

You're most welcome, Mike!