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762 shooter
06-20-2015, 07:48 AM
With all the pontificating by certain individuals about South Carolina "loopholes", father made straw purchase, no check required if a FTF transaction,.................................... CNN reported Friday that the idiot legally purchased his Glock 41 at a local gun store in Charleston. (Not that you can believe CNN)

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting-suspect/

"Roof turned 21 in April, and a short time later he had a gun.

On Thursday, investigators did a trace of the handgun used in Wednesday's shooting and determined that it was a .45-caliber handgun Roof purchased from a Charleston gun store in April, two law enforcement officials told CNN's Perez and Bruer.

Roof purchased a Glock .45-caliber model 41, which holds 13 rounds, a federal law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation said. Witnesses have reported that Roof reloaded a number of times.

Roof's father and uncle contacted police after surveillance camera images of the suspect were made public, according to the arrest warrant. His father told authorities his son owned a .45-caliber handgun.

Joe Roof, his grandfather, said Roof was given "birthday money" and that the family didn't know what he did with it."

I wonder why everyone is so quiet about this? Doesn't fit a gun control agenda.

762

JSnover
06-20-2015, 08:10 AM
From the same mass media that claims we have gun shops on every street corner, anyone with cash can buy machine guns, and my favorite lie; No one saw this coming.

Frosty Boolit
06-20-2015, 08:25 AM
Strange all the rounds fired last sunday at Tusco rifle club and not a single one struck a person....

Frosty Boolit
06-20-2015, 08:26 AM
My apologies, kicking a dead horse.

Wayne Smith
06-20-2015, 08:48 AM
Keep in mind, this is all after the fact. When he bought the gun he wasn't a 'crazed mass murder'. Try to predict your own behavior for half a day - I'll bet you can't successfully do that without conscious effort. One thing we know without question is that we cannot predict anyone's behavior with accuracy.

kens
06-20-2015, 08:50 AM
he gets the gun by checking the appropriate boxes.
Take a look at the form 4473 section 11. That is the list of yes/no check boxes.
All the perp does is check the correct boxes and he is good to go for purchase.
The Brady background check looks at criminal records, nothing about mental illness though.
The yes/no checkbox re: mental illness and drugs has no background check to vett the buyer.

GoodOlBoy
06-20-2015, 09:01 AM
How does a crazed mass murderer get a gun?

He probably wasn't known as one when he bought it? Just a guess.

GoodOlBoy

Smoke4320
06-20-2015, 09:12 AM
he gets the gun by checking the appropriate boxes.
Take a look at the form 4473 section 11. That is the list of yes/no check boxes.
All the perp does is check the correct boxes and he is good to go for purchase.
The Brady background check looks at criminal records, nothing about mental illness though.
The yes/no checkbox re: mental illness and drugs has no background check to vett the buyer.

and This is a very difficult bridge to cross.. no one want the insane/crazys to get a gun but now the left gun control crowd is asking doctors to report you for just having a gun.. not sure how we are going to make sure we weed out the undesirables but protect the good peoples rights ?

JSnover
06-20-2015, 10:01 AM
and This is a very difficult bridge to cross.. no one want the insane/crazys to get a gun but now the left gun control crowd is asking doctors to report you for just having a gun.. not sure how we are going to make sure we weed out the undesirables but protect the good peoples rights ?

I agree completely with your post but I don't believe it is possible to weed out undesirables, even if we scrap the Bill of Rights.

Julian Marcelino used two knives to kill six and wound 15 in 1932: http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm...m&file_id=9922

Monroe Phillips, in 1915, killed seven people and wounded 32 with a double barrel shotgun: http://www.glynngen.com/history/bwkmassacre.htm

The best we can do is to allow the good people to protect themselves.

gray wolf
06-20-2015, 10:25 AM
Or perhaps his handlers turned him loose ??

+ the kid was a stoned drug addict.

CNN news my foot, I can't believe people still listen to it.

Spin--spin--spin until they decide what they want to tell you.

Another chance to take a swipe at our guns. It sure didn't take them long to start trying.

The poor souls arent even in the ground yet.

trapper9260
06-20-2015, 10:44 AM
Or perhaps his handlers turned him loose ??

+ the kid was a stoned drug addict.

CNN news my foot, I can't believe people still listen to it.

Spin--spin--spin until they decide what they want to tell you.

Another chance to take a swipe at our guns. It sure didn't take them long to start trying.

The poor souls arent even in the ground yet.

I am with you on his handlers turned him lose.I say it was a set up to push more gun control.I do not take the word of CNN.They are in with the so call gang for gun control.The kid was there prime one for there thing.But the ones that is just a stand by get the raw end of it all.yes the poor souls got it the worst and not in the ground yet.that is how it is all turn to be now for the gun control nuts.Use some one else thing for there point.Like was stated on the world news that if one of the victims was carrying it could of been stop, but was a gun free zone.That is what i understand from the news.It was on CBS last night news.

Lee
06-20-2015, 10:45 AM
+1 on drug addict. However, I wonder if they just might be LEGAL drugs. Big pharma and media is awfully quiet on these cases. Don't want to affect the bottom line, eh?

osteodoc08
06-20-2015, 11:35 AM
Criminals will always be criminal and pursue illegal avenues to meet their agenda.

Law abiding citizens are law abiding citizens. Citizens that should be able to protect themselves with whatever means necessary wherever and whenever.

Lee
06-20-2015, 11:37 AM
Just found this, and may have answered my own question:

Read it all the way and ask………………………………………

The Federalist 2 hours ago

The Nationalist Socialist Democrats Party ( NAZl'S Democrats) for short don't want a free America ! Nor do they want to know the realproblem in this country is caused by them and the big Pharmaceuticals!

• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and DylanKlebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves.Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.
• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day ofProzac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot hisgrandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake,Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.
• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) HighSchool, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took arifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory ofthe event.
• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt whiletaking Prozac.
• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparentswhile taking Zoloft.
• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closetafter taking Zoloft for 6 days.
• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot hisparents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.
• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and thenkilled two students, wounding six others.• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.
• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on studentsat a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers werekilled, five others were wounded..
• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) wentpsychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling andalmost murdering another.
• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson,aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, andwounding 10 others.
• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student inConyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.
• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to deathwith a bat.
• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) fromBreenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementaryschool killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and twoteachers.
• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for aschool shooting in Pennsylvania
• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in ElCajon, California
• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxilhe stabbed his grandmother 61 times.
• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of theblue killed a woman.
• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killedhis parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcherknife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.
• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reportedto have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several othermedications.
• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when hedied from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, buttwo years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possiblehomicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRIantidepressants.
• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexaproprescription had been doubled.
• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstoneproblems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, sheshot herself.
• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a Universityof Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family foundhim dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf ShoreBoulevard home in July 2002.
• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when shehung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damndoctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on thesecond visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction toPaxil...")
• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when hecommitted suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's deathand killed himself.)
• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hungherself in her family's detached garage.
• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist becausehe was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples ofZoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from alaundry hook in his closet.
• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father witha shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn theworld that SSRI drugs can kill.
• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th weekof taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling thedose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had neverbeen depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.
\• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his fatherafter his Prozac dosage was increased.
• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middleschool student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was takingZoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."
• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot andkilled 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killinghimself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.
• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five peopleand wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois Universityauditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac,Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts ofXanax in his system.
• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been takingantidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more atJokela High School – then he committed suicide.
• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded fourbefore taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.
• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired ashotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.
Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these samemeds....
• What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az?
• What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?
• What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured1, Clackamas Or?
• What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 andwounded 2 in Newtown Ct?
Those focusing on further firearms bans or magazinerestrictions are clearly focusing on the wrong issue and asking the wrongquestions, either as a deliberate attempt to hide these links, or out ofcomplete and utter ignorance

dtknowles
06-20-2015, 11:44 AM
I am with you on his handlers turned him lose.......................

Can you substantiate the existence of these "Handlers". Any evidence in any case of gun violence that it was something more than just a depraved individual. Who are these "Handlers" who do they work for and how do they operate. Without evidence or even a reasonable suspicion talking about them makes you seem like a loon.

Tim

shooter2
06-20-2015, 12:00 PM
I think it is damned near impossible to stop someone from killing if they put their mind to it. Nor does it make much difference what gun laws are in place.

Remember this case "Anders Behring Breivik" in Norway just a few years ago. Norway has some pretty strict gun laws.

People were killing people before gun powder.

Having said all that, I would be willing to bet that someone in the family knew this guy was troubled and potentially dangerous. But "knowing" is not enough to commit someone.

JMHO

762 shooter
06-20-2015, 12:15 PM
I just thought it ironic that all the gun control geniuses saw SC as a hotbed of insane criminals buying guns. Apparently he followed the law, did pass a background check and purchased the Glock.

He might have lied on question 11b on form 4473, but I'm not sure how I would have answered that question given his legal circumstances.

762

TXGunNut
06-20-2015, 12:37 PM
Too early to say about the psychiatric drug influence here but it certainly fits the profile. These drugs have kept untold patients out of institutions but it seems there is a high price to pay for having these folks in our society. I think the reason very little is said about them is that they may be very commonly used with the majority of folks living much-improved somewhat normal lives. Nobody wants to think every patient taking these drugs is a walking time bomb.
Lee's reference to the Federalist article is very interesting. I've seen some of this info before but if all that is true the problem is bigger than I suspected and much bigger than mainstream media and the medical profession will ever admit.

Echo
06-20-2015, 12:50 PM
As long as this is The Land Of The Free, we will have problems like this. It is the price we pay, for being free. But I believe we made a big mistake about 45 years ago when we got all concerned about the mental patients who were simply warehoused in institutions, and passed laws saying that if we couldn't treat them (to reduce their mental problems) we had to release them. Some folks need to be locked away...

dkf
06-20-2015, 12:51 PM
Heavy drug user, nutball, hater of people = They will find a way to do the harm they want to inflict.

If someone in the church would have been carrying other than the perp I would bet money the outcome would have been much better. Hopefully SC changes their law that prohibits carry in churches, thus making churches a prime target for acts like this.

woody1
06-20-2015, 01:13 PM
I think it is damned near impossible to stop someone from killing if they put their mind to it. Nor does it make much difference what gun laws are in place.

Remember this case "Anders Behring Breivik" in Norway just a few years ago. Norway has some pretty strict gun laws.

People were killing people before gun powder.

Having said all that, I would be willing to bet that someone in the family knew this guy was troubled and potentially dangerous. But "knowing" is not enough to commit someone.

JMHO

If one is determined to do it, we don't need guns to kill people. Look up the Bath School Disaster. There were 38 people killed and 58 wounded. I think one shot was fired. Regards, Woody

smokeywolf
06-20-2015, 01:42 PM
These nutbags that carefully plan these mass murders, seem bent on killing not just one or two people, but many. Their goal is to kill many and possibly, if not probably, have their name celebrated in the MSM and go down in history. Good example of this is the list that Lee just posted (post #14). (No criticism meant of Lee or his post)
I seriously doubt that these "people" would commit these acts, if they felt that the best (actually worst) they could do is kill one or two people. Not going to make much of a statement or get them the news coverage or infamy they seek.

Do you really think that this piece of sub-human garbage or the one on trial in Colorado right now would have attempted to stand up and open fire on a crowd of people, if they knew ahead of time that a third of the people in that crowd were likely armed and would surely drop him/them, before he/they could get the 3rd or 4th shot off.
For those who have never had to take aim while under fire, these idiots might even get 6 or 8 shots off without a single fatality, before being dropped by a someone with a little defensive handgun training.

As long as good people outnumber bad people, gun ownership needs to be encouraged. That is the surest way of halting or at least drastically reducing these mass murderers committed by sociopaths.

Why do you think politicians want to restrict gun ownership? Same reason, they know that they are outnumbered by good people.

You're never going to catch all the nutbags, sociopaths, crooks, criminals, murderers, etc. out there. But, you can arm lots and lots of good, honest citizens. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but this is the answer, statistics prove it, it's staring society in the face and still, mom's, dads, children and grandparents are dying and they don't have to.

JSnover
06-20-2015, 02:03 PM
My belief is that most of them do not care if they encounter armed resistance. By the time they fire the first round they've decided it's their day to die and they want to take someone with them. The problem is we can't stop them if we've been disarmed.

Ballistics in Scotland
06-20-2015, 03:06 PM
Keep in mind, this is all after the fact. When he bought the gun he wasn't a 'crazed mass murder'. Try to predict your own behavior for half a day - I'll bet you can't successfully do that without conscious effort. One thing we know without question is that we cannot predict anyone's behavior with accuracy.

I think this is the crux of the matter. No shopkeeper is forced to sell to someone - or at least someone of his own race and indeterminate sexual orientation, but I think a gunshop would (certainly should) refuse to sell to an obvious salivating boobie. But he acted, and had no record to contradict, being at worst a non-crazed idiot. "Psychopath" is quite a narrow category of deranged criminal. Neurotics probably do more harm. But true psychos don't get nerves.

I once got to visit the Scottish State Hospital 0for the criminally insane. (It was just part of a course I was on, honest!)i I don't suppose I got to meet the really hard cases, but nobody behind the thirty-foot razor wire is there because of just being a criminal and insane. l wouldn't have turned my back on any of them without witnesses, and all the qualified witnesses were reassuringly large. But what struck me was how friendly and sensible the inmates we met were. They were quite different from ordinary criminals (I had met those elsewhere), and were quite flattered that educated people had come in to take an interest in them. The work they were doing in the workshop, to be sold and used to provide various amenities, was far ahead of what you would see in any high school.

The point is, you can't expect a gunshop proprietor to make this kind of judgement, and he shouldn't be blamed if he gets is wrong.

Quite few years ago in Scotland we had a primary school shooting of by a man who had been stripped of the ability to be a scoutmaster, because of complaints of inappropriate conduct which were never quite sustained, but nearly. It was revealed that junior police officers strongly recommended that he not get a firearms licence, because they thought there was something the matter with him. But there was no mechanism for this, and their superiors let him have one. The procedure has since been amended to let the police consult my doctor if they think I give any indications of being a dangerous lunatic, but so far as I know, they never have. It doesn't seem a monstrous imposition, considering the purpose involved.

762 shooter
06-20-2015, 05:32 PM
My take is once a crazy comes into contact with resistance they shoot themselves or give up.

Religious zealots march to a different drummer.

762

dragon813gt
06-20-2015, 06:24 PM
You can do a lot more damage in a crowd w/ gasoline and styrofoam then you can w/ a firearm. Where there's a will there's a way. In this case he bought the handgun legally after going through the background check. Everyone of us on this site has done the same thing. But you don't see any of us committing multiple homicides. I wish the news wasn't all about ratings. Because the answer as to why this happened is blatantly obvious. But the media will never report it because it doesn't sell adds.

kens
06-20-2015, 07:39 PM
and This is a very difficult bridge to cross.. no one want the insane/crazys to get a gun but now the left gun control crowd is asking doctors to report you for just having a gun.. not sure how we are going to make sure we weed out the undesirables but protect the good peoples rights ?

What are you talking about???,,,,,,,REALLY??
The doctors should report you if you are prescribed psych drugs. Never mind gun ownership, the left has a problem with college degreed Dr.'s needing to report mental illness.
Its not a gun problem now, it is a mental illness problem, and the left doesn't want to see it.

Handloader109
06-20-2015, 08:59 PM
He looked normal, had cash, filled out the forms correctly, passed the bg check and walked away with a gun. Appears as normal as 90% of the unemployed kids his age. Just evil, and you can't prevent evil acts from happening.

oneokie
06-20-2015, 09:06 PM
What are you talking about???,,,,,,,REALLY??
The doctors should report you if you are prescribed psych drugs. Never mind gun ownership, the left has a problem with college degreed Dr.'s needing to report mental illness.
Its not a gun problem now, it is a mental illness problem, and the left doesn't want to see it.
IIRC, that was a failure by Holmes' doctor.

1johnlb
06-20-2015, 09:13 PM
How long will the American public stay blind or continually look the other way from the evil it allows to happen to its youths.
Greed, for money, fuels this nation and it's people.

Dope pushers, sell dope to our kids for money and destroy the lives of users all while saying it's their right to decide.

Pharmaceutical companies or just legal dope manufactors, BIG MONEY.

Then here's one, the parents give their kids video games with adult content of which many are of violent nature, even killing people with guns, which they latter in life seek to play out in their own lives. All because it's easier to allow the games to babysit instead of being the father or mother they should be and raise their kids.

Then not to mention the media, movies and tv who continually push sex and violence with it's programs.

All this and so much more we the American people allow to desensitized our children, for greed of money. And we want even stand up and ammitt our faults always pointing the finger.


When a farmer plants a crop and fails to remove the weeds, the weeds will overtake the garden choking out the crop. So there has to be, cultivation, without it culture deminishes just like the crop.

The very thing this nations vets and military fight and give their lives for ( God bless them ) is the very thing that will callapse this nation, freedom. We seek to be free, not realizing that people will never be free, we a tied to our families, jobs, or what ever god ( drugs, video games ,the news, money, castboolits, guns, for example ) that has blinded our minds. So unless this nation once again humbles itself and submits to God, callapse is unavoidable. And these things ( mass murder ) are just the fruit of it.

dtknowles
06-20-2015, 09:55 PM
...........................The very thing this nations vets and military fight and give their lives for ( God bless them ) is the very thing that will callapse this nation, freedom. We seek to be free, not realizing that people will never be free, we a tied to our families, jobs, or what ever god ( drugs, video games ,the news, money, castboolits, guns, for example ) that has blinded our minds. So unless this nation once again humbles itself and submits to God, callapse is unavoidable. And these things ( mass murder ) are just the fruit of it.

The Vets fought and died so we could live in this country and continue to be governed by the Constitution of the United States. This Constitution protect certain rights and provides a high degree of freedom from Government intrusion into our daily lives. With this freedom from oppression some people choose to act in evil ways, some are caught and punished and others get away with their evil. You will not eliminate evil and if you so fear evil that you want and need a Government so powerful that it puts everyone in a straight jacket so they can do no harm please go someplace else, I don't want a Government or a Pope deciding who should wear a straight jacket and who is the one to put others into the straight jackets.

Tim

1johnlb
06-20-2015, 10:40 PM
You will not eliminate evil and if you so fear evil that you want and need a Government so powerful that it puts everyone in a straight jacket so they can do no harm please go someplace else, I don't want a Government or a Pope deciding who should wear a straight jacket and who is the one to put others into the straight jackets.

Tim, your statement is the one that's riddled with fear, not mine. You must have forgotten, I already know the end, it's written. I don't fear what man can do to me, but Him who created me. Your so scared of loosing your rights that your willing to allow the senseless murders of thousands just so you can have the appearance of grasping for your rights. " He who seeks to save his life will surely lose it".

I think you misunderstood me or maybe I wasn't clear or maybe your just looking a arguement.

I don't trust in the Pope, he's a man, nor do I put my trust in the Constitution, because men govern it and rewrite it continually to fit their agendas. I put my trust in the Lord.

My statement is merely pointing out that we are a product of our surroundings. What we allow effects our children and they become a product of our society. If we allow evil then society will certainly become evil. If you don't beleive me just get out of your neighborhood to someplace different, like Jersey, NC, Luisianna, go to the slums or the ritzy neighborhoods and see all the deversity of accents or mind sets. I don't beleive in stronger gun control, I beleive in stronger media control and taking the minds of our children back.

I truly beleive that the desensitization is the real problem. And if you have a problem with my freedom of speech than that's your problem, because I have just as much right to be here as you do.

MediumCore358
06-20-2015, 11:06 PM
Heavy drug user, nutball, hater of people = They will find a way to do the harm they want to inflict.

If someone in the church would have been carrying other than the perp I would bet money the outcome would have been much better. Hopefully SC changes their law that prohibits carry in churches, thus making churches a prime target for acts like this.

I agree with you. Good guys with guns stop bad one's. We aren't far from the wild west in ways, if everyone could freely carry creeps and crooks would definitely think twice before attempting something like this.

MaryB
06-21-2015, 03:22 AM
Under SC law anyone with a pending felony is supposed to be put on the no gun list... at least that was the news being put out...

dtknowles
06-21-2015, 10:39 AM
..................I beleive in stronger media control and taking the minds of our children back.

I truly beleive that the desensitization is the real problem. And if you have a problem with my freedom of speech than that's your problem, because I have just as much right to be here as you do.

You talk about controlling the media in one sentence then in the very next sentence you request your freedom of speech. That is hypocritical.

I respect your freedom of speech, I did not try to shut you up, I just contradicted you. If you don't like what the media is spewing, contradict it like I did you.

Tim

dtknowles
06-21-2015, 10:48 AM
Tim, your statement is the one that's riddled with fear, not mine. You must have forgotten, I already know the end, it's written. I don't fear what man can do to me, but Him who created me. Your so scared of loosing your rights that your willing to allow the senseless murders of thousands just so you can have the appearance of grasping for your rights. " He who seeks to save his life will surely lose it"...................

I am not afraid of loosing my rights, I am concerned, we must constantly protect those right. You want the government to impose more restrictions on the Media and you would like to be the one who decides what is Ok and what is not.

Oh, wait, you already know how it works out so the is no point in talking about it, there is no way you can be wrong.

Tim

1johnlb
06-21-2015, 01:24 PM
Oh, wait, you already know how it works out so the is no point in talking about it, there is no way you can be wrong.

It's plainly written , Tim. None of it is from me, He wrote it. But then you didn't beleive it therfore you will never be able to receive any of it except the end. And you'll probably deny it until it's to late. Sad, Tim, real sad! You'll miss out on all He had for you. But that's your choice.

You'll never be able to say you didn't know, because you want even beleive those who have encountered Him. Because you know so much. Pride is a terrible thing, it robs you, and you don't even know it. I bet if someone robbed you of a dollar you'd shoot him.

JSnover
06-21-2015, 01:44 PM
It's plainly written , Tim. None of it is from me, He wrote it. But then you didn't beleive it therfore you will never be able to receive any of it except the end. And you'll probably deny it until it's to late. Sad, Tim, real sad! You'll miss out on all He had for you. But that's your choice.

You'll never be able to say you didn't know, because you want even beleive those who have encountered Him. Because you know so much. Pride is a terrible thing, it robs you, and you don't even know it. I bet if someone robbed you of a dollar you'd shoot him.
I'm aware of Gods assurance that the meek shall inherit the earth and we all need to turn the other cheek, love the sinner, etc., but I'm not certain that we're expected to stand by and watch our brothers die or let evil have its way with us.

I'm also struck by the condescending tone in the above post but maybe it's just my perception.

dtknowles
06-21-2015, 02:13 PM
.........you, and you don't even know it. I bet if someone robbed you of a dollar you'd shoot him.

I don't carry but I might shoot someone if they break into my house but it would be about self defense not about money.

Tim

dtknowles
06-21-2015, 02:19 PM
..........You'll never be able to say you didn't know, because you want even beleive those who have encountered Him. Because you know so much. Pride is a terrible thing, it robs you, and you don't even know it..............

I have never met anyone who encountered Him. I don't find reports of people on the internet compelling. The revelations God has made to me have had nothing to do with the bible.

Tim

daniel lawecki
06-21-2015, 02:28 PM
In a lot of these shooting the parents know things about their children. But choose to ignore the problem because they don't want people to know their kid has problems or there insurance won't cover for their dysfunctional behavior. Guns aren't the problem parenting my need to change some parents don't really know their children out of sight of mind. Then gun control and the media runs amuck reporting 1/2 the story. I feel for all involved killing out of hate is just wrong.

hardy
06-21-2015, 03:02 PM
Smokeywolf put it all in a nutshell,Post #22..........Mike

Harter66
06-22-2015, 11:54 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Smoke4320 View Post
and This is a very difficult bridge to cross.. no one want the insane/crazys to get a gun but now the left gun control crowd is asking doctors to report you for just having a gun.. not sure how we are going to make sure we weed out the undesirables but protect the good peoples rights ?
What are you talking about???,,,,,,,REALLY??
The doctors should report you if you are prescribed psych drugs. Never mind gun ownership, the left has a problem with college degreed Dr.'s needing to report mental illness.
Its not a gun problem now, it is a mental illness problem, and the left doesn't want to see it.

This is where I have a problem with "drawing a line".

Let me show you an example.
A guy/girl is going through a break up or family loss . They notice loss of appetite, don't care if they go to bed or get up,haven't slept well in several weeks and gets up ,eats ,showers ,goes to work ,comes home ,eats and does the chores because it part of the routine . That person goes to the doc and says "doc Im not sleeping well ,not eating etc " the doc says ,"sounds like a little depression, heres a script for a sleep aid ,it won't put you in a dead sleep and it'll take the edge off and get you back on your feet,take this 2nd one here if you're still not right after you get some sleep."
Do you want to take this guy/girls rights away ? Because that is exactly what you have said . What about the folks that need a little helper for the holidays, them too ? While we're at it let's add alcoholics and adrenaline junkies in fact anyone with even a mildly addictive personality and sense you can't get by without your coffee that's you too. By the way even if you're dry and coffee /cigarette /bungee/ throttle roll free for 10 yr you stay on the NO list.
KENS this is exactly what you said .
This is a tricky place because with a zero ,you saw a Dr because you were having trouble sleeping, tolerance gets lumped in with Charles Manson .

No, I think that we need a little more wiggle room than a prescription constitutes a lunatic . In Nevada we passed a law that requires any Physician to notify the state within 48hr of any psychological detainment over 72 hr. It comes with a process for removal also because some people are just having a moment.

The psychological aspects are very difficult to nail down and nobody but NOBODY wants to draw a line of black and white or even a a heavy grey line that fades to black. The law says ajudicated incompetent ,that means by court order. If we go by what's in the medical records then everyones medical care becomes public information and can be used for employment data,loans, credit cards,rentals buying a car, literally everything.

Just a point to ponder.

GaryN
06-22-2015, 09:51 PM
I just think everyone needs to carry. The lunatics will get weeded out. An armed society is a polite society.

SeabeeMan
06-22-2015, 10:05 PM
I had a big post ready to fire off about veterans and PTSD, how do we determine mental state with any sort of accuracy and recourse when we can't even accurately count votes, blah blah blah.

I just think everyone needs to carry. The lunatics will get weeded out. An armed society is a polite society.

But that pretty much takes care of it.

Wayne Smith
06-23-2015, 09:27 AM
Please be aware that Medication does not change or cause:

a) Antisocial (Psychopathic) personality
b) Racism
c) Narcissism

Medication does vastly help:

a) Major Depression
b) Anxiety disorders
c) ADHD
d) psychosis (of all types)
e) Bipolar disorder (manic depression is the old diagnosis)
f) Seizure disorder

Yes, in a few people, the SSRI and SNRI antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts and actions, expecially in the first six months of taking them. This needs to be actively monitored by all who have an ongoing relationship with them. On the other hand, they are the safest option we have and are helping millions of people.

There is no evidence of a direct relationship between stimulant medication and violence, except when there is a bipolar disorder that is involved also. In that case stimulants can create a mixed or manic episode and violence is possible.

The greatest danger in psychosis is when the psychotic goes off their medication or is medically noncompliant.

As a mental health professional these are issues I deal with on a daily basis. No, I cannot and refuse to try to predict behavior, I can only talk about probabilities. These have no direct relationship to individual behavior in any particular situation.

Harter66
06-23-2015, 09:48 AM
There we go Wayne for the win.

Blackwater
06-23-2015, 12:42 PM
Crazed mass murderers don't walk around with a sign on their heads labeling them and pointing them out. Until they act, they usually act much like many other people who simply have "issues" as it's termed these days. Very few of these people with "issues" kill masses of people. Something sets them apart, and the only thing I've been able to identify with any degree of certainty is that they all seem not to care much if they live or die, and they usually have parents who've attempted to raise them according to the doctrine of political correctness, and who've really contributed little to the kids' lives other than enabling them to grow into sociopaths. Some of the drugs may enhance their liklihood of becoming mass killers, but that's a very difficult thing to gauge. Easy to BLAME, yes, but very difficult to REALLY get a grip on.

And as to HOW they get guns, just think about it. Go back to when you were a kid and did things behind your own parents' backs. It's really not that hard when you simply WANT to do something. We humans, even the crazy sociopath types, are THINKING animals when we HAVE to be, or at least we usually are. Just because someone is mentally unbalanced doesn't switch our intellectual capacities off. They're retained, and when motivated, they're USED. All that anyone really needs is the WILL to do something, and even a bare amount of weighing options will usually turn up an answer as to how to go about doing any given thing, no matter how insane it might be.

Would any of us feel better if guns weren't available? Nope. I assure you you wouldn't, because they'd just take household chemicals and make bombs to do the same or worse.

Remember John Wayne's line in "The Shootist" where he noted that most people, when it comes to actually pulling the trigger on another human being will hisitate, or blink an eye before pulling the trigger. Books said "I won't," and these sociopaths don't either. They keep their eyes wide open during the whole event, seeming to get a charge out of actually doing what they'd long thought about.

Passing a new law, however much we might WANT a new law to work, simply will NEVER over-ride an individual's simple will to do bad things. All laws do is provide for punishment AFTER the crime has been committed, or possibly, provide a justification for self defense. That's all laws really CAN do. They passed laws about making moonshine whisky, but did that END it? Hardly. That stuff's so good that people risked major portions in their lives for its taste, and the satisfaction of living the way they WANTED to. Laws, by and large, really ARE "made to be broken." Think about it.

C.F.Plinker
06-23-2015, 03:41 PM
It was bought legally at a local gun shop.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/charleston-church-gunman-dylann-roof-bought-pistol-locally-officials-n380341

GREENCOUNTYPETE
06-23-2015, 05:26 PM
reporting you and taking away guns for being on a zolof prozac , concerta , insert list of drugs here . would be a rude awakening neither side wants , if the person is not responsible enough to own a firearm , then should they be allowed to vote..... think about hat for a few minutes


now I need to tell you that 45% of women are on these very drugs it is at times harder to find 3 women in a room that are not on or have never been on these drugs than it is to find 3 that are or have. the numbers for men are lower but DR's might tell you they should be on them they just won't visit the DR

the truth of it is that no system of paper will be sufficient , nor will any system keep bad or crazy people from getting a hold of weapons or other things to cause great human injury or death.

gas stations still sell gas they don't check ID much less check to see if your a felon . we recently had a woman in the area murder her husband with the kitchen knife he had just sharpened for her , she explained she cut him in a very efficient way just like butchering a pig.
2 of last years murders in the area where committed by a sheriffs deputy who killed his wife and sister in law.

the system needs checks and balances , the final check an balance needs to be less then 2 seconds from the holster to the target

destrux
06-23-2015, 06:13 PM
What I'm curious about is the reports from people who knew him saying that he was not actually known to be racist. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33209654

How do you go from having friends who are black one week to being so racist it drives you into a homicidal rage the next week?

Could be they all just made it up to get on the news too.

Either way this is a very strange case, as have all the recent media circus events in the past few years.

MaryB
06-23-2015, 11:29 PM
Only problem is almost every mass murderer in the last 20 years was on some form or psych drug or had just stopped taking one!


Please be aware that Medication does not change or cause:

a) Antisocial (Psychopathic) personality
b) Racism
c) Narcissism

Medication does vastly help:

a) Major Depression
b) Anxiety disorders
c) ADHD
d) psychosis (of all types)
e) Bipolar disorder (manic depression is the old diagnosis)
f) Seizure disorder

Yes, in a few people, the SSRI and SNRI antidepressants can cause suicidal thoughts and actions, expecially in the first six months of taking them. This needs to be actively monitored by all who have an ongoing relationship with them. On the other hand, they are the safest option we have and are helping millions of people.

There is no evidence of a direct relationship between stimulant medication and violence, except when there is a bipolar disorder that is involved also. In that case stimulants can create a mixed or manic episode and violence is possible.

The greatest danger in psychosis is when the psychotic goes off their medication or is medically noncompliant.

As a mental health professional these are issues I deal with on a daily basis. No, I cannot and refuse to try to predict behavior, I can only talk about probabilities. These have no direct relationship to individual behavior in any particular situation.

Wayne Smith
06-24-2015, 07:40 AM
... or had just stopped taking one! There you go, Mary. BTW, Psychopathy, Sociopathy, and Antisocial Personality disorder are all different names for the same thing, and we now know it is physiological, biological and genetic, and brain biology based. Among other changes they have a physically smaller area that handles emotions. They are unable to emotionally connect with another person. They can fake it real well, but never actually make a connection. Thus they appear callous and can do henious things without apparant emotional involvement. They also tend not to learn from their own mistakes in most cases.

The stimulant medications are still vastly over prescribed because pediatricians prescribe it without any assessment other than what a parent tells them. We do formal ADHD evaluations.

bugoutbicyclist
06-24-2015, 03:01 PM
Then there is the conspiracy theory that it was part of a larger plan and the kid was used to murder these folks to continue to fuel the race issues of today. Add in Jade Helm and the other weird things going on. That alone make a sane person think of starting of meds. If there are really any real sane folks left in the world!

perotter
06-24-2015, 04:43 PM
Then there is the conspiracy theory that it was part of a larger plan and the kid was used to murder these folks to continue to fuel the race issues of today. Add in Jade Helm and the other weird things going on. That alone make a sane person think of starting of meds. If there are really any real sane folks left in the world!

Sometimes one just has to remember the old joke, "There are only two sane people let in the world, you and me. There are days I have my doubts about you".

Every now and then one just has to step back, ignoring the world spinning for a few minutes or day.

bugoutbicyclist
06-25-2015, 12:26 AM
Amen!

Lead Fred
06-25-2015, 12:32 AM
wait till you all find out he has a felony drug charge
and bought a firearm