Smelting pot...threads on 20lb propane tank?

[SeabeeMan]

I'm getting one of BigBlack's smelter valves and am trying to figure out what to put it in. My thought is a typical cut-in-half 20lb propane tank, but rather than using the bottom, use the top. I could take the smelting valve, have it threaded or weld it to a threaded adapter, and then put it right in the bottom (was the top) of the tank, allowing me to get every last bit of lead. I cannot find what kind of threads are in the top of a 20lb tank. Not the POL/valve assembly, but the threads that are part of the tank that the assembly screws in to.

[fishhawk]

3/4 pipe thread

[bstone5]

The valves on the propane tank are screwed in very tight.

I make a water tank for cooling on the milling machine and lathe.

To get the valve out I had to weld the tank to my welding table at the base of the tank remove the guard ring at the top and use a big wrench with a cheater pipe to unscrew the valves from the tank.

Who ever installs the valves puts them in there very tight.

[SeabeeMan]

Good to know. I'm thinking this might work. I'll post pics of my build and hopefully I'll end up with something along the lines of a Satan's Little Smelter for a fraction of the cost.

[justingrosche]

Rich, based on past experience with bottom pour pots, you really don't want to get every last bit out. You'd be digging dross out of what ever type of nozzle you are using. If you didn't get every bit out, you'd likely call your pot the "Leak Master 1000" It wouldn't hurt to leave 5# a pot that will likely hold a hundred and a half. Even switching grades of alloy, you would never see an appreciatable difference to your final product.

[bstone5]

Drawing of a tank I thought about building.

I never built the pot but follows your concept.

The valve looks the same.

[SeabeeMan]

Good point on leaving some in there. I think I would just use this for the initial bulk cleanup and go back to my dutch oven for mixing alloys outside of the casting pot.

Bstone5, thats pretty much it. I want to avoid welding that nice valve in if at all possible in case I change my mind in the future. I figure if the outlet of the valve goes to a piece of angle iron, that should keep the whole contraption nicely in the flame and from freezing up.

I think I'll just weld on 4 legs of angle iron that put the chute just above the burner, as well as tack on a sheet metal windscreen around the legs to keep the heat on the pot.

[Dragonheart]

I considered using the top, but since I wanted a bottom pour a hole in the center would be in the way. I copied the RCBS pour design. Additionally, I found adding a skirt around the pot traps the heat, speeds up the melting and makes the pot very stable. My pot easily holds 200+ pounds and makes quick work of range lead.
142460

[bstone5]

Three legs might be better, four legs might make the pot wobble if not on a level surface.
The valve like on a RCBS pot looks good and keeps the machined parts off the bottom and out of the lead.
There are a lot of ways to build the pot with a little welding.

[alamogunr]

The valves on the propane tank are screwed in very tight.

I make a water tank for cooling on the milling machine and lathe.

To get the valve out I had to weld the tank to my welding table at the base of the tank remove the guard ring at the top and use a big wrench with a cheater pipe to unscrew the valves from the tank.

Who ever installs the valves puts them in there very tight.

Several years ago I had a couple of propane tanks with the old valves. A friend owns a fuel company(propane, gasoline, etc.) so I asked about replacing the valve. They had a clamping arrangement for the tank and a huge pipe wrench. Piece of cake. The clamp was a metal strap arrangement with possibly a rubber lining. The tank didn't slip when they put the twist on the valve. I'm still using the tanks with the new valves.

[GrayTech]

A drain hole at the lowest point will clog with gunk often. Better to have a flat bottom pot if using bottom pour.

[GunStuff]

Have you never noticed that lead is much heavier than "gunk"? How does it clog the valve if you always leave a layer of lead at the bottom at the end of a casting session?

[Mal Paso]

Have you never noticed that lead is much heavier than "gunk"? How does it clog the valve if you always leave a layer of lead at the bottom at the end of a casting session?

Surface tension can hold an amazing amount crud on the bottom of the pot.

[SeabeeMan]

Would I be better off scrapping the top of a propane tank idea and just building myself a pot? It would be easy enough to cut a tank apart so there are just the straight sides and weld a piece of plate onto the bottom, or just make it square. Round seems to be easier to flux and scrape the edges, but I don't have a way to make a hoop other than cutting something apart.

[RogerDat]

Steel pipe gives you something to use for the round sides, weld a plate to the bottom drilled out for your valve. I know at least one member posted pictures of his built like this. Needed it for smelting sailboat keels by lowering them into a really big pot from a hoist. Heavy but solid build.

[Mal Paso]

Melting range scrap or any scrap lead always leaves some crud on the bottom. I think if the valve were 1/4" off the bottom or extended 1/4" into the bottom that would eliminate most of it. It's surface tension that holds it there and with lead on top it doesn't move much. If you want a round bottom weld a 3/4" coupling more toward the edge so it isn't the very bottom.

I buy my steel from a metal fabrication shop. I have had them roll 12ga steel into a 10" cylinder when I needed a custom size tube, that's a lot heavier than a propane tank. Off cuts from well casing is another idea.

[SeabeeMan]

Time to put my picture posting skills to the test.

I finished building my pot tonight with BigBlack's valve, a 20lb tank, and a whole bunch of advice from this wonderful forum. The goal was to build a bottom pour smelting pot and keep the cost to a minimum. I inherited my dad's habits of saving anything that could ever possibly be of use, which includes pulling anything made out of tube, angle or sheet steel apart before recycling/throwing away the rest of it. I managed to build the entire thing out of metal I had under the bench...and it looks like it. I also had to build this between a 4 year old sticking her head into the garage while I was trying to weld, a 6 month old needing naps, and my wife trying to sneak in some hours for work. Tack welding 22ga for the windscreen with a flux core welder is also not the easiest thing in the world, so those aren't the best welds in the world. Here we go!

Started with a 20lb tank I got for free from a supplier when I refilled 2 other tanks. The valve was already out and I left it filled with water for about a week. I cut it in half about 3 inches *below* the weld...remember that this is upside down. I started it with an air cutoff wheel but switched to the sawzall. It was tough to keep a straight line and you can see I got a little off at the end. My plan for the bottom half means it doesn't really matter how straight the cut is, but I'm not happy with that little cut. Next time I'll use the plasma cutter but I was a bit nervous about plasma and propane despite it being filled with water.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150808_163723_836_zpsmy5jvs4t.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150808_163723_836_zpsmy5jvs4t.jpg.html)

Then came the valve. Tacked in place and welded in. I swapped out the small nipple BigBlack had in there for a 6" nipple, a 45" elbow, and then the original to get a downward angle on the spout and to get it away from the pot.

The original plan involved having BigBlack turn the valve down a bit and threading it for 1/2" NPT, which would then be installed using a 1/2"-3/4" bushing in the original threads. We had a few issues making that work out and eventually I just ended up with a valve to weld in. It looks like it is going to work great and I love how he took material off the shank of the bolt to allow better flow. I also ground the outer edge of the bolt, above the mating surface) so that there would be better flow between the outer edge of the head and inner edge of the tank threads.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_185352_998_zps5u4r9ru2.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_185352_998_zps5u4r9ru2.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_162633_547_zps0nev7xcg.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_162633_547_zps0nev7xcg.jpg.html)

Originally I was just going to leave it open, but I took some knowledge from the stories of tinsel faires and live 22 rounds in smelting pots and figured that the bottom of the tank would make a great lid. I took some inspiration from another member, who I cannot remember and cannot find at this point, and made a hinge for the bottom of the pot from 1/2" black pipe elbows, nipples, and a tee. Now the bottom will act as a lid, allowing it to warm up faster and keeping things under control should some water get below the surface of the lead. I don't know if I'll need to add a hole or two to vent fumes but that is easy later.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_183700_167_zpsgsw760el.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_183700_167_zpsgsw760el.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_183711_781_zpsenczamdm.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_183711_781_zpsenczamdm.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_184840_732_zpsaq8aaras.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_184840_732_zpsaq8aaras.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_184911_462_zpsbd36z6ls.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150816_184911_462_zpsbd36z6ls.jpg.html)

It needs legs. I figured out an angle that would allow the legs to sit nicely on the bottom curve and still end up wide enough for some stability. They are 3/16" walled 1 1/2" square tube that I got from a gang reel mower that somebody gave me. The mower sucked, but there was 30' of good tubing in the frame!

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_162649_249_zpsrrdexe2j.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_162649_249_zpsrrdexe2j.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165356_002_zpsdmws6ovn.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165356_002_zpsdmws6ovn.jpg.html)

With a little more planning I could have ended up with all the feet sticking out, but I wasn't going to cut up more material. The feet actually work really well the add stability and will keep it from sinking into my gravel driveway when I'm working with it.

Now to control the valve. I had some 5/15" hex stock left over from who knows what.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_204316_648_zps8jbmua1h.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_204316_648_zps8jbmua1h.jpg.html)

[SeabeeMan]

Another random piece of metal...this one from an elliptical, I think...and an extra nut driver laying around make a nice wrench that can be removed to close the lid. Here you can see how far the spout gets the lead out from the pot.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165343_736_zpsrg55qse8.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165343_736_zpsrg55qse8.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165428_253_zps15cmsclv.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_165428_253_zps15cmsclv.jpg.html)

I thought about building this to sit over my fryer but then realized that my burner is only held on with one nut. Some cross bracing on the legs and a hole in just the right spot makes the burner an integral part of this pot. I can remove it to put it back on the fryer when needed, or I'll just but a different one.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_172954_552_zpsa88bozwi.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_172954_552_zpsa88bozwi.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180356_417_zpst8wyugnz.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180356_417_zpst8wyugnz.jpg.html)

And last but not least, a windscreen. I had a few sheets of 12x18 22ga steel around, again from who knows what, so they were pressed into service. Remember, flux core welder on thin metal...not easy. I still need to clean things up so there is residue from the flux core wire everywhere.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180337_438_zpswm6yoea8.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180337_438_zpswm6yoea8.jpg.html)

And the complete finished product, minus some brushing and grinding.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180409_777_zpskgs9zpp9.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180409_777_zpskgs9zpp9.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180422_867_zpsfwr8z6er.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180422_867_zpsfwr8z6er.jpg.html)
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180325_810_zpsprdjitke.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/Smelting%20Pot%20Build/IMG_20150818_180325_810_zpsprdjitke.jpg.html)

Not bad for starting with a rusty propane tank and nothing but scrap metal. I'm hoping to get some pure lead I have in blocks and sheets melted down this weekend so I'll report back. I figure a cinder block or paver under the spout should work nicely to get the molds up to the right level. I'm slightly concerned that the spout is to close to the windscreen to get the middle row of my mini muffin tins, but another pipe nipple would fix that.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I need to build be a good smelter for the raw scrap I have! Well done! You might need some venting in the upper portion of the windscreen to keep a vertical pattern of heat and exhaust moving so your burner won't flame out.

[Wayne Smith]

Yes, you will need vent holes in the top. You are heating lead and air and the air expands, gotta go somewhere.

[JASON4X4]

Great job should hold a couple hundred pounder of lead.

[lobowolf761]

The valves on the propane tank are screwed in very tight.

I make a water tank for cooling on the milling machine and lathe.

To get the valve out I had to weld the tank to my welding table at the base of the tank remove the guard ring at the top and use a big wrench with a cheater pipe to unscrew the valves from the tank.

Who ever installs the valves puts them in there very tight.
Valves are tightened by machine.

[SeabeeMan]

I'm going to fire it up with some pure lead I have in sheets and blocks this weekend, so I'll get a feel for how the burner performs. It will be an easy thing to start putting holes in the top or the windscreen if needed.

[Pee Wee]

man that's cool

[Tazza]

I got a few hundred kg of lead from a range about two weeks ago. I have a 20 litre drum i cut the top out of to hold a cast iron pot and light a fire under it to do my melting in. When i brought home the masses of range lead, my dad told me the little one would take forever, not to let him get me down, i used it anyway.... He was right, it was taking longer than i remembered it taking in the past, yet it did work. I did come up with a solution that worked very well.

As my parents place is far enough out, the neighbors don't complain, i worked on it there. I got a section of a 44 gallon drum and an old gas bottle. I cut the top out of the empty bottle (ensure there is no LPG in there before cutting for obvious reasons) i then cut a circle out of the 44 gallon drum to suit the bottle. I then pushed the bottle into the hole and welded it in. I then cut a hole to feed wood from one side and a hole for the flu at the other. Light a fire under it with all the dead trees around the place. It works better than i ever expected it to. Free fuel to feed the fire and the other parts i had on hand. Don't under estimate the heat you can get from burning waste timber if you have it laying around.

It was cobbled together in about 20 minutes, but with how well it went, i am going to spend more time making it so it will last for further use. With a molten base, i can dump about 1/3 of a bucket into the pot, stir t to melt the added lead then add a bit more and repeat till the whole bucket is in and molten. I then need to wait for the rubbish on top to burn off (plastic, wood and paper from targets). I think i fed this monster about 5 buckets each weighing 25kg within about 30 minutes. The part that slows you down is the pouring ingots and waiting for them to cool so you can do more.

[GunStuff]

Tazza, That is how we smelted about 6000 lbs of range lead from an indoor range. Two improvements would be to use about a 12 foot chimney to get the nasty smoke away from your work area while the trash is burning off. The second is to fasten a small pipe to the base of your burner, angled up, and fasten a small computer fan to blow air into the burner. A small fan is sufficient as the larger fan that we tried got the drum so hot that my pants caught on fire while standing about 18" away.

[Tazza]

I was actually thinking about adding a chimney to get the smoke from the wood burning away, i'm thinking you're onto something for making a chimney to get the smoke and other nasties away from the pot too. Some sort of hood over the pot and a fan to draw it up and out.

There is no "burner" as it is powered by timber, i just light a fire under it and keep adding wood to the fire. Less adjustable than gas, but nice and cheap.

[GunStuff]

Hello Tazza, Here are some pictures of our set up. The door to the smelter has a wire on it that will hold it open when we feed it wood. The valve has been modified to reduce splashing. Also we extended the chimney by another 8 feet.
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae169/Gun5tuff/Smelting%20Lead/Smelter%20_zpsploc5nor.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/user/Gun5tuff/media/Smelting%20Lead/Smelter%20_zpsploc5nor.jpg.html)


Here we are during a nice sunny winter day pouring lead.

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae169/Gun5tuff/Smelting%20Lead/P1080705_zpsx0i6vakd.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/user/Gun5tuff/media/Smelting%20Lead/P1080705_zpsx0i6vakd.jpg.html)

Here the dross is removed from the molten lead. The little scoop at the end of the bar has holes in the bottom to allow the lead to flow out. Note the taller chimney and the different valve arrangement.

http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae169/Gun5tuff/Smelting%20Lead/P1080627_zpslbhjkjoa.jpg (http://s968.photobucket.com/user/Gun5tuff/media/Smelting%20Lead/P1080627_zpslbhjkjoa.jpg.html)

[Tazza]

Thanks for sharing the pictures, I like the design! I may yet have to make a new version of mine in the near future. I see the fan you spoke about to get more air in to really get it burning. Possibly hooking up a cheap ebay speed controller could help so you can adjust it.

Good idea for removing the dross, i currently use a ladle and turn it on it's side, it does ok, but there is always some lead trapped and discarded.

I will try and get some pictures of it, hopefully some in action if my dad doesn't get motivated and finish it before i get there.

I did find that the melt put out quite a bit of smoke too as the rubbish was burning off, i wonder if i was to setup some sort of cover over the top with a chimney i could use that to draw the smoke and other nasties up. In theory, the heat would cause convection currents to pull it upwards, good in theory at least....

[GunStuff]

If I were to build another one I would put the valve on the side opposite the door so that the pipe doesn't hinder loading in the wood. Also, the wood door could be located a bit higher and be slightly larger to aid with feeding lots of wood. It's amazing how fast it can melt a couple hundred pounds of lead. The chimney attached to the smelter is a steel pipe. It sits about 18 inches inside the barrel and is fastened to the side of the barrel with a couple bolts. The front of the chimney section inside the tank is cut away to let out the smoke. When I cut the hole in the barrel to receive the propane tank I made the diameter smaller about ½ inch all around and bent this edge up with an adjustable wrench. I then fitted the propane tank into the hole and hammered the raised edge against the propane tank. Welding sealed the joint and made it strong. This was a fun project. We sell the smelted lead to BC Black Powder shooters and others for $.60/lb.

[Tazza]

That's always the way, you think of better ways to do it after the initial build. Good idea on bending the metal up to weld to the cylinder, i found mine was hard to weld as the metal was so thin on the drum, this would have made it easier.

A few years ago I built a wood stove sort of thing to cook stock, i found the same issue, the door was too low and the hole to feed it could have been larger. All depends on if i can be bothered making version two of that one. When i get it hot it works great, but there is a point that there is just too much ash at the bottom to put more wood in. It may get some slots cut in the base to allow air in and ash to fall out.

I was amazed at how fast it heats up too, it was only minutes till the lead was starting to melt. Doing it larger scale like you are is the only way to make it worth while. If you were paying for propane/LPG to heat the pot, you really wouldn't be making much selling for that price.

[GunStuff]

We used mainly short 2x4 pieces of wood. My buddy and a couple other guys were enclosing the back side of our range shooting shed using recycled windows and 2x4 lumber from our local dumps (oops...recycling centers). The cut off pieces of 2x4 were burned in our smelter. Nice and dry, no chainsaw required. We recycled the drum, the propane tank, the wood and most of all the lead. There were some hydration expenses however.

[Tazza]

Can't complain about those expenses, I hope you made sure you were equally hydrated too :)

Sadly there aren't a whole lot of enclosed ranges here, my main range is open, it would be far too much work to try and reclaim lead from it. There would be many tonnes of lead there.

[Tazza]

Sorry it took me so long, but here is a picture of my 20 minutes of construction. Don't mind the block that you can see is broken, Never fear, the drum is supported a little further back. This was taken at the end of the melting session, i was too busy adding, cleaning and making ingots to think of taking pictures :(

The broken block really looks dodgy doesn't it? The blocks aren't made to take the heat, and possibly was cracked before i even started.
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/tazza_/master%20caster/Melting%20Pot/20151031_153011.jpg

http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac233/tazza_/master%20caster/Melting%20Pot/20151031_153015.jpg

[GunStuff]

Nice. Nothing wrong with that set-up. It's simple and it works. Thanks for the pictures.

You could try digging some of the lead out of the back stop from your range just to see if the effort of smelting it is worthwhile.

[Tazza]

We have two ranges, one is 50, the other is 200. I keep thinking there has to be so much lead out there, but it would be spread out so far that it would take far too much effort to collect. The back stops are just dirt piles, so they will all be embedded into that too. One day i may have a go at scraping up what i can.

The last lot i got was from an enclosed range with a metal back stop, so it was very easy to collect.

[dikman]

Tazza, I've been recovering my scrap from the 25 and 50 metre ranges at my local pistol club, which means that it's non-jacketed scrap. The berms are some sort of clay-based sand - in Winter the stuff sticks together too much, so I have to wait for it to dry out (Summer) which means it's hot work!!! I use a cheap plastic garden sieve, which works very well. Even after washing the sand off it's amazing how much crud still floats up when I smelt the stuff.

I like you're setup, simple to build and use. The only problem I can see is the fire ban season - even though you could set it up to be safe to use, people tend to get very nervous when they see smoke! Which is why I use coke from my forge, as although there's a bit of smoke when I first start it up, once it's running there's no smoke.

[Tazza]

Those would be a back stop, easy to sift out the lead, no ricochet risks. Ours are just piled up dirt, clay, sifting wouldn't work for ours unfortunately.

Nasty, summer time in the heat doesn't sound fun at all. We are in Spring, the heat is already horrible, summer is going to suck.

Thankfully where my parents live, not many people care what you do. I keep the fires small and there is little smoke too. Nothing like neighbors that get in your business when you are doing nothing wrong.

I like simple too, if it rusts out, i don't worry too much as it cost me nothing to make :) only about 20 minutes with the plasma and welder.