My dad brought home a stray and I have to feed it

[theleo]

The stray:142264142265142266

I'm thinking an NOE 350gr RD mold but not sure what powder. I don't need to run full power with the crescent butt plate but don't want the high pressure of using trial boss to take up the case volume. Has anyone reinvented the wheel on this or should I still be going with IMR4895 and 5744?

[smokeywolf]

I would love to take the problem of figuring out a load, off your hands. She is really a beauty. I'm green with envy.

Seriously, I'd love to give you some suggestions, but I've never loaded for 45-90. However, there are several very knowledgeable folks here who have and I'll leave it to them to steer you in the right direction.

If that crescent butt plate gives you any problems, I would be happy to relieve you of this difficulty. I happen to like the crescent butt plates.

That rifle is sweeter looking than a new born puppy.

[rush1886]

Envious! Jealous! Did I mention Envious and Jealous?

For me personally, the only thing in the world better, would be in 50-110! That's just me.

You are one lucky Dog!

[skeettx]

Light fun loads are:

40 grains of 3031 and 300 or 350 grain boolit

30 grains of 5744 and 300 or 350 grain boolit

This is an Express Round (light bullet)

Mike

[Vann]

5744 is hard to beat, the only other powder I've used in a lot of a 45-90 was IMR 4198. I haven't loaded for 45-90 in about 10 years so it'd take a while to find my old load data. I know that if you favor a compressed load you want to look at Varget.

[theleo]

Light fun loads are:

40 grains of 3031 and 300 or 350 grain boolit

30 grains of 5744 and 300 or 350 grain boolit

This is an Express Round (light bullet)

Mike
Yeah, it's an express rifle more so than the cartridge. The only reference I have is the lyman cast bullet handbook. They start with a 457124 at 385 grains. 350 is as heavy as I'll be going.

[Bzcraig]

I would love to take the problem of figuring out a load, off your hands. She is really a beauty. I'm green with envy.

Seriously, I'd love to give you some suggestions, but I've never loaded for 45-90. However, there are several very knowledgeable folks here who have and I'll leave it to them to steer you in the right direction.

If that crescent butt plate gives you any problems, I would be happy to relieve you of this difficulty. I happen to like the crescent butt plates.

That rifle is sweeter looking than a new born puppy.

Well, well. It seems Ole Smokeywolf dun fell in love with another mans girl!

[smokeywolf]

A model '86? crescent butt plate? octagon barrel? in 45-90? You're dog-gone right. If there was an emoticon of a mouth with a string of drool leaking out one corner, that would be me.

[theleo]

A model '86? crescent butt plate? octagon barrel? in 45-90? You're dog-gone right. If there was an emoticon of a mouth with a string of drool leaking out one corner, that would be me.
I mentioned my dad is the one who brought it home right? Hopefully it'll be many years before it comes into my hands along with the 86 in 33 WCF. Until that day I'll have you mind your manners talking about my sister like that.

[smokeywolf]

Not to worry theleo, I have a couple of your sister's sisters over here; one in 40-65. A deluxe with XX wood, pistol grip, color cased receiver, single set trigger. She's a beaut, but not a 45-90.

[TXGunNut]

I feed my 45-90 1 1/2Fg or FFg, still trying to decide between Swiss and KIK. IMHO case is too big for smokeless powder.

[theleo]

I feed my 45-90 1 1/2Fg or FFg, still trying to decide between Swiss and KIK. IMHO case is too big for smokeless powder.
I definitely understand what you're saying, I'm just not set up to reload with black powder and have very little experience with it in general. I'm fairly new to casting and like to make reloading one new discipline at a time.

[theleo]

Not to worry theleo, I have a couple of your sister's sisters over here; one in 40-65. A deluxe with XX wood, pistol grip, color cased receiver, single set trigger. She's a beaut, but not a 45-90.
Sounds purdy. Honestly the only lever guns I really luster for is a pair of 32-20 model 92's my great grandfather handed down to my dad. Not pristine by any means but one is a trapper model and the other a saddle ring carbine. I don't this 86 or any other firearms leaving the family in my lifetime, and there's plenty of time for me to enjoy them at the ripe age of 29.

[hpdrifter]

poor guy!

[smokeywolf]

Good Lord willing, you'll have kids to pass those irreplaceable family heirlooms down to.

[Geezer in NH]

What and hell is it?? Model and caliber to make sense in this post

[Sweetpea]

What and hell is it?? Model and caliber to make sense in this post

I'ts all in the pictures...

[skeettx]

Winchester 1886 in 45-90 with octagon barrel and crescent butt.

Geezer, thanks for asking :)

Mike

[theleo]

Skeet: Those loads look pretty reasonable, do you know where a kid like me could get his hands on published data for 45-90 with bullets 350 grains and under? It seems to be a challenging task.

[Nueces]

The first edition (1958) of the Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets is available in a large format reprint from Cornell Pubs:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handbook-of-Cast-Bullets-by-Lyman-Corp-1958-/290893129399

There's data for the 45-90, 405 WCF, 33 WCF, all that cool stuff.

Snooky Williamson's "The Winchester Lever Legacy" has a lot of modern data worked up in original Winchester lever guns, seeking to reproduce the old high velocity performance.

[longbow]

Some .45-90 load data right on this site in CastPics:

http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/reloaders-reference/reloading-manuals/190-ideal-handbook-38

Lightest boolit is 300 grs.

Longbow

[smokeywolf]

theleo, if you're going to be casting and/or loading for Winchesters, "Ken Waters' Pet Loads" is a good book to have in your library. It has a nice section on the 45-90 Winchester and 45-2.4 Sharps. Shows something near 20 different loads for boolits of 309, 330, 416 (405 grain mould) and 515 grains. Uses a lot of IMR 4198.

[theleo]

Perfect thanks everyone, this is much appreciated but the project may get delayed a bit.
142315142316142317
Seems I might have some smelting in my future first. Just found out today.:lovebooli

[BrentD]

I definitely understand what you're saying, I'm just not set up to reload with black powder and have very little experience with it in general. I'm fairly new to casting and like to make reloading one new discipline at a time.


You ARE set up to load BP. You have a scale right? If so, then you are minimally ready. It is super easy. FAR easier than smokeless.

[osteodoc08]

A model '86? crescent butt plate? octagon barrel? in 45-90? You're dog-gone right. If there was an emoticon of a mouth with a string of drool leaking out one corner, that would be me.

Same here.

Time to get a letter from the Cody Museum.......

ive got an 1886 in 45/90 that has been worked over and relined with an extra fancy shotgun butt stock on it that is a family heirloom. Might not have collectors value but is in perfect shape and will be passed down.

[M-Tecs]

This is the link to old Accurate Arms data that lists the 45-90. Data is on page 43.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpdf.textfiles.com%2Fmanuals%2FFIR EARMS%2F2003guide.pdf&ei=O8SBVam6Kse5ggTDoYOICA&usg=AFQjCNEHf27Ne8cIwmLevQH4yWHlrLbGdw

[smokeywolf]

Same here.

Time to get a letter from the Cody Museum.......

ive got an 1886 in 45/90 that has been worked over and relined with an extra fancy shotgun butt stock on it that is a family heirloom. Might not have collectors value but is in perfect shape and will be passed down.

It's nice if they have collector value, but if your intent is to keep it in the family in perpetuity, collector value becomes secondary to sentimental value.

Two or three of my Winchesters have had set triggers and tang sights added that although original to the period, don't show on the Cody letter.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
You had better spend some quality time with your dad thanking him for having such good taste ! That would be one fine rifle to get to "feed".
If you sit behind cross sticks that rifle will not hurt you half as much as laying belly down on a bench. I do a lot of cross stick shooting with heavy thumpers and have reached 64 with all my joints still attached and working well. I weighed a whole 148 this morning so that should help you understand I am not a big body person. I would shoot any rifle off cross sticks. But not from a bench unless the front rest is my shoulder height so my body can recoil with the rifle or shotgun with slugs or round ball load.
Mike in Peru

[45-70marlin]

I have a 1948 no. 35 Ideal load book, for the 45-90 jacketed 300 gr. bullet use 57.0 gr. of IMR-4198 [2215fps] or 64.0 gr. of IMR-3031 [2040 fps]. for 405 gr. jacketed bullet use 60.0 gr. of IMR-3031 [1950 fps]. OK, this IS 1948 load data so take it for what it is worth. Even if you dont use this it is interesting to know.

[uncle dino]

black horn 209..Case filling low pressure load..there is load data for 45-90 right on their website..wonderful stuff. ez clean up. no fouling ..

[TXGunNut]

I definitely understand what you're saying, I'm just not set up to reload with black powder and have very little experience with it in general. I'm fairly new to casting and like to make reloading one new discipline at a time.


Really not a big deal at all. Don't believe all you hear about how messy BP is, it cleans up faster and cleaner than SP. All you need is a powder drop tube, BP boolit lube, a powder compression die (easier than you think) and a bottle of Windex with vinegar or a can of Ballistol and a plastic spray bottle.
May be more than you want to do right now but BP is what that cartridge was designed around.

[FromTheWoods]

I come from a family of three boys and three girls--none of my sisters ever looked that pretty!

[John Taylor]

Picked up an 86 in a trade a while back, 40-65 round barrel that had been cut off. I made up a new octagon barrel but have not had time to put it all together. Will be sending the barrel to Hunter restoration for the lettering soon. Got the dies and bullet mold, now to find some brass or make some from 45-70. This probably won't happen till I get the 50-100-450 done, been on the shelf for a couple years.

[theleo]

Same here.

Time to get a letter from the Cody Museum.......

ive got an 1886 in 45/90 that has been worked over and relined with an extra fancy shotgun butt stock on it that is a family heirloom. Might not have collectors value but is in perfect shape and will be passed down.

Letters are fine and all but I have a hard time seeing it go anywhere. My dad may loan guns out to his friends sometimes but rarely sells any of them. I personal view on selling guns is that if a gun shoots reasonably well it stays put. Selling a gun that shoots, for any price is a good way to create regret in a persons life. Besides, it's a Browning design and I like the stuff that guy designed.

[theleo]

Greetings
You had better spend some quality time with your dad thanking him for having such good taste ! That would be one fine rifle to get to "feed".
If you sit behind cross sticks that rifle will not hurt you half as much as laying belly down on a bench. I do a lot of cross stick shooting with heavy thumpers and have reached 64 with all my joints still attached and working well. I weighed a whole 148 this morning so that should help you understand I am not a big body person. I would shoot any rifle off cross sticks. But not from a bench unless the front rest is my shoulder height so my body can recoil with the rifle or shotgun with slugs or round ball load.
Mike in Peru

The discussion has happened more than once thanking him for my gun education, although when I was a kid I'd rather have just watch John Wayne kill the bad guys than have my dad constantly quiz on what Whinchester everyone was shooting. I like the idea of shooting sticks, all my load development has always been over a bench to see what the guns really liked at 200 yards but they're all scoped big game rifle with the biggest being a 338-06 with a decelerator pad. I think this 45-90 will but the 338-06 in perspective.

[smokeywolf]

Picked up an 86 in a trade a while back, 40-65 round barrel that had been cut off. I made up a new octagon barrel but have not had time to put it all together. Will be sending the barrel to Hunter restoration for the lettering soon. Got the dies and bullet mold, now to find some brass or make some from 45-70. This probably won't happen till I get the 50-100-450 done, been on the shelf for a couple years.

John, Starline has 40-65 brass available right now. Might want to strike while the iron's hot.

[yooper]

John, Starline has 40-65 brass available right now. Might want to strike while the iron's hot.

Graf's has that Starline 40-65 in-stock at $59.99/100. That's a pretty righteous price IMHO.
yooper

[John Allen]

I would love to have this gun. It is on my list of ones I want.

[Vann]

Been a way for a few days, my grandmother died and I had to travel to Florida for the funeral.

This data is from the new Lyman 4th edition cast bullet hand book. Please note that they capped there data somewhere around 27000 C.U.P. I probably would stop about half way or below halfway with these loads.

Also note this data is listed for Lyman #457124 which they say weights 385 grains. Use this data at your own risk.
Listed by powder, suggested start grains, start fps, start pressure in C.U.P. Max charge, max fps, and max C.U.P.

SR-4759. 33.0gr 1675fps. 15400 C.U.P. 36.5 gr 1826fps. 24000 C.U.P.

5744. 36.0gr. 1568fps. 13700 C.U.P. 44.5gr 1866fps. 24400 C.U.P.

IMR 4198 47.Ogr. 1861fps. 19400 C.U.P. 51.7gr. 2070fps. 26800 C.U.P.

RX7. 51.0gr. 1944fps. 18800 C.U.P. 57.0gr. 2117fps. 24900 C.U.P.

H-322. 49.0gr. 1685fps. 15300 C.U.P. 61.0gr. 2134fps. 25,900 C.U.P.

Varget. 55.0gr. 1636fps. 12800 C.U.P. 65.0 gr. 2071fps. 25000 C.U.P.


I have some more data around my shop I'll post later if I can find it.

[theleo]

Been a way for a few days, my grandmother died and I had to travel to Florida for the funeral.

This data is from the new Lyman 4th edition cast bullet hand book. Please note that they capped there data somewhere around 27000 C.U.P. I probably would stop about half way or below halfway with these loads.

Also note this data is listed for Lyman #457124 which they say weights 385 grains. Use this data at your own risk.
Listed by powder, suggested start grains, start fps, start pressure in C.U.P. Max charge, max fps, and max C.U.P.

SR-4759. 33.0gr 1675fps. 15400 C.U.P. 36.5 gr 1826fps. 24000 C.U.P.

5744. 36.0gr. 1568fps. 13700 C.U.P. 44.5gr 1866fps. 24400 C.U.P.

IMR 4198 47.Ogr. 1861fps. 19400 C.U.P. 51.7gr. 2070fps. 26800 C.U.P.

RX7. 51.0gr. 1944fps. 18800 C.U.P. 57.0gr. 2117fps. 24900 C.U.P.

H-322. 49.0gr. 1685fps. 15300 C.U.P. 61.0gr. 2134fps. 25,900 C.U.P.

Varget. 55.0gr. 1636fps. 12800 C.U.P. 65.0 gr. 2071fps. 25000 C.U.P.


I have some more data around my shop I'll post later if I can find it.
Thanks Vann. I've got the hand book and think those should be a good start for the NOE 350 grainers. It's just difficult to find data for the light stuff. Thanks for the data though.

[theleo]

I've been a long time getting the shooting done for this project but I finally got it done today.146830146835146834
Considering how out of practice I am with buck horns I limited things to 50 yards. For a rifle built around 1890 though, I'm pretty happy with a couple of those groups.

As a side note, after the first 6 shots or so, I was scrambling to find some extra padding between me and that butt plate!

[TXGunNut]

My presbyopic eyes actually do pretty well with full buckhorn sights, semi's are a bit of a challenge these days. Good shooting, that 3031 load show promise. I never could get my 45-90 to behave with HP's, not sure why.

[w30wcf]

BE CAREFUL - If the barrel does not indicate "Special Smokeless Steel" do not exceed loads generating more than 25,000 psi

A fellow on Leverguns did, and now his beloved 1886 is no more.

w30wcf

[OnHoPr]

I've been a long time getting the shooting done for this project but I finally got it done today.146830146835146834
Considering how out of practice I am with buck horns I limited things to 50 yards. For a rifle built around 1890 though, I'm pretty happy with a couple of those groups.

As a side note, after the first 6 shots or so, I was scrambling to find some extra padding between me and that butt plate!

Squirrel season is just around the corner.:bigsmyl2:

[Char-Gar]

Before you start looking for loads, check and see if that barrel is one of the older black powder barrels or one of the newer "Nickle Steel" barrels for smokeless powder. The date the receiver was made (SN) will not always tell the tale. IIRC the stamping on a 86 is on the underside of the barrel and the forearm will have to be removed.

I have know two men who destroyed their fine 86s running higher pressure smokeless power loads through an old soft steel barrels. You can get buy doing it for a time and then one day you will pull the trigger and the barrel will split. Keep loads for such barrels at black powder pressures.

[theleo]

Before you start looking for loads, check and see if that barrel is one of the older black powder barrels or one of the newer "Nickle Steel" barrels for smokeless powder.

I have know two men who destroyed their fine 86s running higher pressure smokeless power loads through an old soft steel barrels. You can get buy doing it for a time and then one day you will pull the trigger and the barrel will split. Keep loads for such barrels at black powder pressures.
What's the give way for "nickel steel" vs the black powder barrels?

[Char-Gar]

What's the give way for "nickel steel" vs the black powder barrels?

I don't understand your question. I suspect you are asking about how much pressure they will take before they rupture, but am not certain. If that is your question, I would submit the following by way of answer.

1. I have no idea what pressure would cause the steel to "give way" at the first shot. Probably a whole bunch more than you will ever use.

2. However the repeated stress of higher than black powder pressure loads will eventually cause the barrel to fail. The last fellow I know that blew on, put over 600 rounds through it before it finally had enough. He could not understand why the barrel split over the chamber, because he has been using the same load for several years. firearms will often take considerable abuse before they roll snake eyes.

Up this thread a knowledgeable person recommended you not exceed 25,000 pounds of pressure in black powder barrels. That is good advice to follow if you have such a barrel.



These are fine old rifles that are accurate and long lived IF they are used as designed. There is nothing in this great country that can't be killed by a 405 grain 45 caliber bullet leaving the muzzle at 1,100 fps. If that were not the case, you would have buffalo eating your grass and house plants as we spend time on this computer.

The later Nickle Steel barrel 86s. can be juiced up if a fellow is of such a mind. However a good modern Marlin can do the same thing. I have a Ruger No. 3 in 45-70 that will digest anything you put in it, but after three shots you will reconsider the wisdom of doing that. Recoil is brutal.

[theleo]

I don't understand your question. I suspect you are asking about how much pressure they will take before they rupture, but am not certain. If that is your question, I would submit the following by way of answer.

1. I have no idea what pressure would cause the steel to "give way" at the first shot. Probably a whole bunch more than you will ever use.

2. However the repeated stress of higher than black powder pressure loads will eventually cause the barrel to fail. The last fellow I know that blew on, put over 600 rounds through it before it finally had enough. He could not understand why the barrel split over the chamber, because he has been using the same load for several years. firearms will often take considerable abuse before they roll snake eyes.

Up this thread a knowledgeable person recommended you not exceed 25,000 pounds of pressure in black powder barrels. That is good advice to follow if you have such a barrel.
What marking shows it's nickel steel? I'm not looking to push speed limits much, but would like to put it around 1800 fps for hunting. Hodgdon shows trapdoor 45-70 loads with 385 grain boolits topping out at around 1600. Would think with a lighter bullet in a bigger case I could get around 1800 fps doing harm to the old girl.

[Char-Gar]

What marking shows it's nickel steel? I'm not looking to push speed limits much, but would like to put it around 1800 fps for hunting. Hodgdon shows trapdoor 45-70 loads with 385 grain boolits topping out at around 1600. Would think with a lighter bullet in a bigger case I could get around 1800 fps doing harm to the old girl.

1. I answered your first question in my post #45 above.

2. Pushing a 385 grain jacketed bullet at 1,800 fps is beyond what I would use in a black powder 86.

3. What are you going to shoot? A 45 caliber bullet going 1,200 fps will shoot through and through a deer at any angle. The extra velocity and energy will only be spread on the trees and ground on the other side of the deer. You ever shoot a deer with the 45-70? I have about a dozen of them.

4. Bottom Line: Do whatever you want to do. It is your rifle and your hands and eyes. I have done the responsible thing and cautioned you. Do as you wish, I have no further obligation.

[M-Tecs]

What marking shows it's nickel steel? I'm not looking to push speed limits much, but would like to put it around 1800 fps for hunting. Hodgdon shows trapdoor 45-70 loads with 385 grain boolits topping out at around 1600. Would think with a lighter bullet in a bigger case I could get around 1800 fps doing harm to the old girl.

Some are marked" Nickel Steel Especially For Smokeless Powder" but not all. Some nickel steel barrels will M.N.S or I.N.S stamped under the forearm. I believe Winchester started using Nickel Steel in 1895.


I would not shoot jacketed in that old of a barrel (soft). I don't have first hand knowledge of Winchesters but in the Trapdoor Springfield's jacketed bullets will wear the barrel surprisingly fast.

[theleo]

Some are marked" Nickel Steel Especially For Smokeless Powder" but not all. Some nickel steel barrels will M.N.S or I.N.S stamped under the forearm. I believe Winchester started using Nickel Steel in 1895.


I would not shoot jacketed in that old of a barrel (soft). I don't have first hand knowledge of Winchesters but in the Trapdoor Springfield's jacketed bullets will wear the barrel surprisingly fast.
That barrel won't see jacketed bullets, kind of blasphemy if it did. I'm just wanting to flatten out the trajectory some if I get around to drawing a rifle tag some year.

[Char-Gar]

1. Goosing the velocity a few hundred fps won't have that much effect on a big slow 45 caliber bullet trajectory wise.

2. Sight in the rifle at 100 yards.

3. Shoot the rifle at 150 and 200 yards and note how low the bullet strikes from point of aim.

4. While shooting at 150 and 200 yards see how many notches you have to raise the rear sight elevator to get to point of aim.

5. If you want to shoot an animal either hold over the required amount or raise the rear sight with the elevator.

6. You can hit jack beyond 200 yards with those sights anyway.

[smokeywolf]

"Nickel Steel" barrels were not widely seen in Winchesters until about 1905.

146953
Here's one of 1905 vintage.

I still keep the pressure below 28,000 for both the barrel and my shoulder.

On model '86s without the nickel steel barrel I keep the pressures down to <20,000.

[skeettx]

Our method is to sight the barrel sight in for 100 yards
Sight the tang sight in for 200 yards
DONE!

Mike

p.s. your gun is already drilled and tapped for the tang sight :)

[BrentD]

Our method is to sight the barrel sight in for 100 yards
Sight the tang sight in for 200 yards

If you are going to do this, and I highly recommend it, then be sure you use the proper tang sight so as to not poke your eye out. No kidding!

[4719dave]

Maybe he'll share ..What a sweet iron you have there ...have fun with her
Well, well. It seems Ole Smokeywolf dun fell in love with another mans girl!

[rintinglen]

Only light boolit loads I've ever loaded for 45-90 were Lyman 457-191 300 grainers over 24 grains of 2400 with a Bamboo filler. They were loaded for use in a replica Sharps whose crescent butt stock was pretty rough on the shoulder, and were definitely softer shooting than the 405 grainers he had been using.
The bamboo is an organic Kapok-substitute substance that I bought for cheapsies at a sewing supply. I pull off a chunk that weighs about a grain and place it into the case, letting it spring out before seating a boolit. Do not compact or tamp it down.

[Alan in Vermont]

Letters are fine and all but I have a hard time seeing it go anywhere. My dad may loan guns out to his friends sometimes but rarely sells any of them. I personal view on selling guns is that if a gun shoots reasonably well it stays put. Selling a gun that shoots, for any price is a good way to create regret in a persons life. Besides, it's a Browning design and I like the stuff that guy designed.

You don't have to have any thoughts of parting with it but documenting the value might be a real help if it should ever get stolen or lost in a fire or other disaster.

[AllanD]

The last1886 I saw in 45-90 wasn't as nearly as yours and had an asking price of $4500 at my local
"toy" store and even at that price it didn't last even a week before someone made it theirs...

AD

[Geezer in NH]

Call the Cody Museum and get information of what it is, date shipped to where and the original configuration.

The 45-90 was a black powder invention to get more speed with a lighter bullet than the 45-70 could do. Smokeless powders have put that problem to bed.

[TCLouis]

I had a vintage 86 (45-70) that LOVED Ranch Dog Boolit and 10.5 grains of Unique.

1105 fps and likely would likely stop a squirrel or charging rabbit.

Fortunately for them a whitetail never stepped in front of me when I was carrying it.

[theleo]

I had a vintage 86 (45-70) that LOVED Ranch Dog Boolit and 10.5 grains of Unique.

1105 fps and likely would likely stop a squirrel or charging rabbit.

Fortunately for them a whitetail never stepped in front of me when I was carrying it.
I'll have to test it on the charging squirrels come spring time. My dad has some ground squirrels that could really get some air time if I shoot a touch low.