Drill chuck on MT3 spindle spinning in tailstock

[ohland]

Old retrobate is still taking a try at making a wad punch out of the "heat treated" bolt. The new issue today was the drill chuck mounted in the MT3 tailstock was spinning. More precisely, the MT3 morse taper spindle was spinning inside the tailstock barrel.

:groner:

So, a little surfing on the digital tsunami... Using a drill to enlarge an existing hole that is wider than the heavy part of the drill web means there isn't as much force against the drill chuck to press the MT spindle against the bore. Doesn't help,

Spinning a spingle in a bore is not helpful. There are some concentric smears around the spindle, but there is no scoring I can see.

Being it is a good little Red Chicom lathe, there is NO tang socket in the barrel. When you work for a bowl of rice a day, little things like a tang holding socket probably aren't important.

I bought some 1/4-20 by 3/8 long set screws. I will be seating the spindle again, get the depth that the tang extends into the bore, then drill n tap the barrel for opposing set screws that will guard the tang. This will pretty much keep the tang from slipping. Another technique was using a lathe dog on the spindle shank, which seems like a PITA... Potentially Increases Technical Annoyance.

[country gent]

The tang is there to remove the spindle not drive it. If the taper is spinning in the socket. Clean everything good and lighty blue it ( dykem 109 bearing blue) gently install it snug and remove it look for bright spots and or rings bearing. It should show even pattern over 90% of the surface. I have used drill and chucks with out tangs and no issue other than on some machines thry may not Pop out easily. one of the old machinist tricks on machines with worn tailstock spindle was to put a lathe dog on the drill or chuk to bear against the compund when under load.

[blaser.306]

The tang is there to remove the spindle not drive it. If the taper is spinning in the socket. Clean everything good and lighty blue it ( dykem 109 bearing blue) gently install it snug and remove it look for bright spots and or rings bearing. It should show even pattern over 90% of the surface. I have used drill and chucks with out tangs and no issue other than on some machines thry may not Pop out easily. one of the old machinist tricks on machines with worn tailstock spindle was to put a lathe dog on the drill or chuk to bear against the compund when under load.

x2 on the clean and dry front! Also be certain there are no foreign particles embedded in the MT3 taper flats, This will cause eccentricity as well as not allowing the taper to properly "grab" While not cheap, they do make wipers for all of the internal machine bores to avoid this very situation.

[ohland]

x2 on the clean and dry front! Also be certain there are no foreign particles embedded in the MT3 taper flats, This will cause eccentricity as well as not allowing the taper to properly "grab" While not cheap, they do make wipers for all of the internal machine bores to avoid this very situation.

Spindlmate has some for the MT tapers, around $70. Not my first choice.

Took it apart again, still not seeing scoring. I have it apart and will Dykem it tomorrow.

[country gent]

Wipers can be turned up pretty easily from nulon or plastic we made some from derlin. Use enough stock to leave a comfortable knurled handle on end. Turn the taper to fit this is critical but can be adjusted as you go. ( we did it with the tail stock checking fit occasionally with ink) set up handle in mill ( rotary table is great a mill vise and vee block wull work. ). with a 3/8 end mill mill 4 evenly spaced flutes down taper. In use insert in taper turn lightly remove clean wrap clean rag or paper towel around it and wipe again. A stiff bottle brush actually does a fair job of cleaning spindle tapers also.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dont' put Set Screws in your Tailstock Spindle!

If it is spinning in the tailstock bore then it doesn't fit right. Many Morse Taper Arbors don't have flats on the ends. Any small amount of chips or dirt will make it so it doesn't fit right. Dings will do the same.

If there are smears on the taper it has to be corrected as it will only ruin the internal taper eventually. Use a fine mill file with a upward circular stroke to remove any high spots on the taper.

Clean it as best you can then apply some lapping compound and have at it. You will see very quickly if the tapers match or you have high spots on the arbor .

You might also have a bad chuck arbor with a poorly made taper or dings or high spots, Lapping will show any problems very quickly.

Randy

[coleman]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-MT3-No-3-Morse-Taper-Reamer-Number-3-/301359393060
Buy a #3 taper reamer, use it to clean up the taper then resale it

[bangerjim]

Yes, the tang is for only the removal from a drill press quill or taper adaptor with a drift key. No driving takes place there!!

A taper (regardless of the letters or numbers) completely contacts every single fraction of an inch the entire length of the bore. If either of your pieces is off, you will not get that intimate contact for a good mechanical "grab" and your shank can/will spin in the socket.

Use the bluing (or a Sharpie marker, in a pinch) to find where the contact points are causing you troubles. GENTLY filing that specific spot should solve your problem and not ruin the taper completely.

Just make sure the back end of the chuck spindle is not buggered up and hitting at the very back. Depending on your lathe and the chuck, ejecting a tight fitting one with the tailstock ram can ding up the end. Without seeing what you have, it is hard for me to know.

bangerjim

[ohland]

Yes, the tang is for only the removal from a drill press quill or taper adaptor with a drift key. No driving takes place there!!

Just make sure the back end of the chuck spindle is not buggered up and hitting at the very back. Depending on your lathe and the chuck, ejecting a tight fitting one with the tailstock ram can ding up the end. Without seeing what you have, it is hard for me to know.

bangerjim

First point, if you can't break it, you are not trying hard enough.

I looked at the taper in the barrel last night, our little Red Chinese brothers must have used a drill a little bigger than 3/4 (that newfangled metric) to drill about 1-2" or so past the smallest part of the taper, so as you look at the MT taper in the barrel, it is a smooth tapered cone, that transitions into a straight walled cylindrical form. I took the spindle over to the belt sander yesterday and relieved the tang.

Used a piece of flat stock to check if the Morse taper was going to hit the tang. No, it isn't, the tang is within the Morse Taper, you can see daylight between the tang and the straight edge.

142145
The crux of the matter. Initial drilling with a smaller diameter bit worked without issue. Changing to a larger diameter bit to follow up caused some issues, the most noteable being the bolt (Class 5) was heated enough to color case. The three lobes of normal colored metal must be where the lathe chuck jaws were holding the bolt (and acted as heat sinks).

142146
The large diameter bit is beat up on the diameter edges, but not at the tip.

142147
Slapped on some Dykem. Popped the spindle in the barrel, could not get it out using a 3/8 rod and a 6oz hammer, had to re-install in the tailstock and use the hand wheel to pop it out. Both hands. Note that the blue has very little marking on it. I just slapped it in while holding the barrel in my hand. No beating on it. Uh, where is the 90% engagement? Other side of spindle is the same. Very small, scattered points.

142148

Spindle in question. No noticeable scoring (I have seen spun drill shanks with scoring and little bits of metal skidded around).

[bangerjim]

Does your drill chuck have a removable shank? Most quality chucks do. Jacob's Taper of some kind. It will say on the side of the chuck. You can drive it out by using a brass/bronze drive punch of the proper size thru the chuck. Set it on top of the open-to-size jaws of your metal vise and rap away. Should pop right out. Brass jaw (top) inserts help protect!

If so, buy a QUALITY shank of the correct JTxMT from an on-line company like Enco, McMasterCarr, Rutland, etc. I would avoid Evilbay completely, because you may end up with the same carp as you now have! I have never had any luck with Chi-com tooling. Japanese, European, etc are very good. Some of the best HS LH (1/8-1") taps I have ever acquired were high end/hi dollar ones made in Macedonia! You can cut your fingers on the cutting surfaces.

Quality = success. Cheap imports = more $$ spent buying replacements!

Spend more $$ ONCE and have a tool that will last a lifetime or two. I have various tooling made back as far as the Civil War that is still going strong!

If the problem is the internal MT bore of the ChiCom lathe tailstock, good luck. A correct QUALITY reamer from the same above companies will allow you to (potentially) clean it up. I bought AMERICAN MT1, MT2, and MT3 reamers years ago and they are still going strong. Razor sharp. (NO I do NOT loan out any of my tools, sorry!) Both the shank and the bore should be almost mirror polished AND somewhat HARDENED if of good quality.

Good luck in you quest.

bangerjim

[ohland]

Does your drill chuck have a removable shank?

If so, buy a QUALITY shank of the correct JTxMT from an on-line company like Enco, McMasterCarr, Rutland, etc.

If the problem is the internal MT bore of the ChiCom lathe tailstock, good luck. A correct QUALITY reamer from the same above companies will allow you to (potentially) clean it up. I bought AMERICAN MT1, MT2, and MT3 reamers years ago and they are still going strong. Razor sharp. (NO I do NOT loan out any of my tools, sorry!) Both the shank and the bore should be almost mirror polished AND somewhat HARDENED if of good quality.

Good luck in you quest.

bangerjim

Yup. Top of the line Grizzly JT33 to MT3, I believe.

I still think a large part of the issue is using a drillbit where the tip has nothing to push against and the outer lips are the only working part of the drill.

That drill is beat up but good. I have some cobalt 7/16 (stub and jobber) from Enco, but I will not use them in this (now) hardened bolt. That bolt needs to be recycled. File 13.

[country gent]

The one reason you see no marking on the taper from instllling is you used dykem lay out fluid thats dries. This is spotting fluid. Dykem 109 hi spot spotting ink never dries and will show whigh spots with little pressure its also used to hand scrap fit prts showing the high spots so that they can be removed a thin coat will show alot. WHen scraping dont add more just rework what is there and it gets thiner showing more as the surface gets truer and mated better. Lay out ink is good for some things but here where you cant rotate to scratch or marr the dried ink you need the real mcoy Dukem 109 Hi Spot. Oh and since it never dries its a royal mess to work with. Alchlol wil cut remove it.

[ohland]

The one reason you see no marking on the taper from instllling is you used dykem lay out fluid thats dries. This is spotting fluid.

Alchlol wil cut remove it.

I'd buy that for a dollar...

I might have a tube of blue downstairs, never use it.

[ohland]

OK, more aimless surfing. I forgot they made wedges to pop off JT chucks...

I have disliked that blasted tang on the arbor, because it steals a good 3/4" of travel from the barrel (therefor drill chuck) travel.

Who makes a tangless MT3 to JT33 arbor? Still looking for other things... Enco doesn't seem to list them, but I've not dived in deep yet.

[ohland]

Yes, the tang is for only the removal from a drill press quill or taper adaptor with a drift key. No driving takes place there!! bangerjim

http://www.eng.utoledo.edu/~tschrede/met1110/Unit%2054.pdf

142162

And you were saying?

I still dislike loosing @ 3/4" of travel...

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/38775-Apparently-the-tang-does-NOT-drive-the-tool?p=504178#post504178
Mcgyver
my monarchs tailstock barrel has two set screws that can be tightened against the tang....art they not to add to the torque resiting holding force?

[country gent]

Our set of spade drills had a pin in place of the tangs ( were a #4 or #5 morse taper shank) and they never spun in a good taper. If you tried them in a worn sleeve they would do to lack of contact. This set of spade drills went from 3" to 6". we normally drilled a 1/2" pilot hole for the web point to strat and then the spade drill. Made some interesting chips this way. We had 2 sets of these in the shop 1 set sharpened for steels and one sharpened for brasses. We ran a 1" flood of coolant onto the spades from behind to help keep cool and chips flushed out. Most Tangs are only 1/4-1/2" thick and 3/4 wide not really a solid mass to drive with. The issue with tangless arbhors is that the ejector may not reach them to pop them out reliably. You may have to drill and tyap a hole for a allen head bolt head so ejector in tailstock can reach it. You may need to purchase a morse taper #2 reamer if spindle is messed up. I spent years working on granite plates with the 109 blue used it from both tubes and little tins similar to shoepolish cans. It a mess waiting to happen. You dont feel it on your hands then any where you touch its there. But when needing precisson surfaces or fits its the most accurate way to go. At one time I was scrapping to square and parallel of .0005 in 2 feet length. When the granite surface plates got resurfaced every 2-3 years I got the job of resurfacing the steel plates to it. I will say thet hand scrapped surface when done is really a pretty surface. But scrapping to 25-30 points per square inch is a real job and skill.

[bangerjim]

http://www.eng.utoledo.edu/~tschrede/met1110/Unit%2054.pdf

142162

And you were saying?

I still dislike loosing @ 3/4" of travel...

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/38775-Apparently-the-tang-does-NOT-drive-the-tool?p=504178#post504178
Mcgyver
my monarchs tailstock barrel has two set screws that can be tightened against the tang....art they not to add to the torque resiting holding force?


In a DRILL PRESS. yes! In a metal lathe......not that have EVER seen! There may be some out there that did in the past. Or someone cobbled one together. Easy to do. Not needed in my operations. I have NEVER had a MT2/3 slip if seated correctly in a clean (very important) bore. And that is running all sizes of S&D drills. I now do most of my drilling with a 3/4" ball bearing precision chuck with carbide insert jaws mounted in a tool holder in my quick-change tool post. Can you say "power drilling"?!?!?!? Easy to run the apron in and out when drilling as opposed to cranking the TS hand wheel until you are blue in the face.

Again depends on your tailstock bore length. I have some (tang-less) I have had to JB Weld a 3/4" piece of brass barstock to so the chuck will eject when cranked all the way back into the tail. That tang acts the same way and you probably need it! Lathes vary all over the may, especially those Chinese things.

How are you loosing travel??????? The Morse taper seats irregardless of the tang. The length is not determined by you or a tang on the end. The taper is what it is.

[smokeywolf]

"Dykem 109 hi spot", aka "Prussian Blue".

Was wondering ohland, didn't see a dia. mentioned for that drill. Could you possibly use a boring bar to remove the remaining material instead of a drill?

I always avoid enlarging an I.D. with a drill unless the existing I.D. is 1/3 or less the diameter of the drill; with smaller holes, often times that's not possible.

You will now have to cut the end off that drill, thin the web and resharpen or grind or regrind a split point. On the bright side, you will now have a screw machine length drill.

[smokeywolf]

"I now do most of my drilling with a 3/4" ball bearing precision chuck with carbide insert jaws mounted in a tool holder in my quick-change tool post. Can you say "power drilling"?!?!?!?"

If you'll excuse the mess, banger, does this look familiar?

142165142166

[country gent]

Always wanted one of those ghuck holders at work not because I though it made drilling that much easier ( we had lathes the tailstocks also had power feed on) but because the carriages had digital read outs x and y axis making blind holes much easier to cut to depth.

[ohland]

Again depends on your tailstock bore length. I have some (tang-less) I have had to JB Weld a 3/4" piece of brass barstock to so the chuck will eject when cranked all the way back into the tail. That tang acts the same way and you probably need it! Lathes vary all over the may, especially those Chinese things.

How are you loosing travel??????? The Morse taper seats irregardless of the tang. The length is not determined by you or a tang on the end. The taper is what it is.

When I say travel it refers to the amount of movement made by the barrel when I turn the tailstock handwheel.

I have a tangless MT3 live center that pops out of the barrel when you run the barrel (quill?) back into the tailstock. In contrast, the drill chuck's MT3 arbor requires that the barrel (quill?) has to be extended @ 3/4 of an inch before the arbor will seat into the morse taper.

Suprising that at times 3/4 of an inch keeps you from clearing the workpiece... Whatever.

[ohland]

"Dykem 109 hi spot", aka "Prussian Blue".

Was wondering ohland, didn't see a dia. mentioned for that drill. Could you possibly use a boring bar to remove the remaining material instead of a drill?
I always avoid enlarging an I.D. with a drill unless the existing I.D. is 1/3 or less the diameter of the drill; with smaller holes, often times that's not possible.
You will now have to cut the end off that drill, thin the web and resharpen or grind or regrind a split point. On the bright side, you will now have a screw machine length drill.

Er, I believe the through hole is 1/4 inch. The final drill is 7/16 (.4375-ish). Long thin boring bar....

As to the TiN coated bit, I am of the opinion it is Chinese. My first inclination is to toss it as well...


I'd just rather toss the existing workpiece and start again with proper facing, center drilling, and a cobalt jobber drill. My plan for 7/16" world domination was to center drill, stubby, followed with the jobber on my mill. Since this is on the lathe, with the workpiece rotation, would it be better to center, then go all the way with the jobber?

[smokeywolf]

I do like the Dorian Quadra Post. Indexes every 15 degrees and repeatable to less than a tenth. Don't usually have more than 2 or 3 holders loaded at once. That's a 3/4 capacity Jacobs ball bearing chuck. Have a Jacobs 1 inch and an Albrecht 5/8 that will also mount there. The dorian holder has the same Morse taper socket as my tailstock.

This is WEBB (licensed copy of a Moriseiki) 17/25 x 40 that so far, just has a Trav-A-Dial on the carriage. I will probably put DRO on it after our much anticipated move out of Kali.

[country gent]

Yes the lathe will drill straighter and truer if the drill bit is properly shortened. We never drilled a pilot hole for 7/16" . rule of thumb for a pilot hole is the same dia or slightly bigger than the beb of the drill. A 1/4" pilot for 7/16 drill can cause grabbing, chatter, and or center issues. A properly sharpened drill same angle side to side centered point will cut to size straright and true. If angles ant the same or of center then it walks chaters and cuts unddersize. I have some drills here when properly sharpened actually cut a few thousandths under sized due to land on outside being worn. Buy a drill gage for sharpening drills this will show you angle and center of point so you know when your right or not.

[bangerjim]

"I now do most of my drilling with a 3/4" ball bearing precision chuck with carbide insert jaws mounted in a tool holder in my quick-change tool post. Can you say "power drilling"?!?!?!?"

If you'll excuse the mess, banger, does this look familiar?

142165142166

You got it! Have on one each of my 3 main lathes.

And the mess looks like mine also!!!!!!!!!! HA.....ha! I have a pile of brass swarf over 3" deep and 12" long under my lathe right now from some recent brass turning projects for some of my antique scientific instruments. I have a couple of 30# boxes full of the stuff....need to take it to the yard next time I go "leading"!.


banger

[bangerjim]

Er, I believe the through hole is 1/4 inch. The final drill is 7/16 (.4375-ish). Long thin boring bar....

As to the TiN coated bit, I am of the opinion it is Chinese. My first inclination is to toss it as well...


I'd just rather toss the existing workpiece and start again with proper facing, center drilling, and a cobalt jobber drill. My plan for 7/16" world domination was to center drill, stubby, followed with the jobber on my mill. Since this is on the lathe, with the workpiece rotation, would it be better to center, then go all the way with the jobber?

Drills in a lathe are fine for hogging out material. But I stop 1 or 2 64th" short and use a carbide boring bar for all "hole making" to 0.0005 accuracy. Boring bars give perfect concentric holes where drills, even expensive well sharpened one, will wander and are not what you really want.

Many times I do all the cutting with boring bars. Only drill a hole large enough to allow the bar cutter tip to enter the work piece. You can REALL hog with a bar!

banger

[smokeywolf]

ohland, I rarely toss a damaged drill or tap. I resharpen them or I regrind them to do a different job. I have taps that I've reground into square or rectangular broaches. I have also taken a half inch dia. x 6 inch long piece of drill rod, put a cross-wise (perpendicular to the length) hole through near (approx. .312) one end, with a #10 drill, which will bring you very close to a diameter that will accept the shank dia. of a number 10 tap. Drill & tap for a set screw from end intersecting the cross-wise hole and now you can regrind your dull or broken #10 taps for inserts for your 1/2" boring bar.

Don't know how deep round and perfect your hole needs to be. Through hole or blind? If the hole needs to be round and accurate within a thousandth, you need to ream or bore. If concentricity is a factor, drill & bore or drill to full depth, then bore to within .002 of finish dia. to 3/8" depth, then ream to finished size and depth.

One more thing, if you can, look for PTD (Precision Twist Drill), Union, Chicago-Latrobe or Cleveland brand drills. These are the brands that have served me the best. There are a few others like Ghuring that are also very good.

[bangerjim]

A 2nd on: PTD (Precision Twist Drill), Union, Chicago-Latrobe or Cleveland brand drills. Those are all I use and have served me for many many years! All the "other" ones (Craftsman, HF, etc) are for weekend handymen drilling an occasional hole in wood or metal for a swing set or BBQ grill!

When you get a GOOD full set ) letters, numbers, fractional) you will definitely know it! (and so will your wallet!) But worth every bit (pun intended) of the price. I have tools I that my children will pass on to their's someday.

And never EVER use a quality drill in a hand drill!!!!!!!!! I just hate to see some clown with a box full of drill bits with the shanks all galled up because he used them in a hand drill and did not tighten the chuck all the way down.


bangerjim


banger

[ohland]

Don't know how deep round and perfect your hole needs to be. Through hole or blind? If the hole needs to be round and accurate within a thousandth, you need to ream or bore. If concentricity is a factor, drill & bore or drill to full depth, then bore to within .002 of finish dia. to 3/8" depth, then ream to finished size and depth.

One more thing, if you can, look for PTD (Precision Twist Drill), Union, Chicago-Latrobe or Cleveland brand drills. These are the brands that have served me the best. There are a few others like Ghuring that are also very good.

Through hole for a wad punch. Not nuclear rocket science grade.

Yes, I did look at reaming when I was thinking this was for a push-through boolit sizer. For a .439 finished diameter, start with an 11mm drill, follow with a reamer to size.

I think these are Hertels.

[ohland]

Yes the lathe will drill straighter and truer if the drill bit is properly shortened. We never drilled a pilot hole for 7/16" . rule of thumb for a pilot hole is the same dia or slightly bigger than the beb of the drill. A 1/4" pilot for 7/16 drill can cause grabbing, chatter, and or center issues.

The total length of the bolt shank and threads is @ 4.5" long. In the lathe, is it better to do it all with a jobber, or should I go in with a stub drill, then switch to a jobber to punch it through? This is for a wad punch, no special tolerance is needed.

I have an Aloris AXA post with a few blocks, one being an AXA-104 with a 3/4 inch bore.

[country gent]

Center it and drill a start hole in the lathe about 1/4" deep. set in vee block at 15* - 20* and drill and indicate center hole to zero and drill hole thru at an angle this will allow hole to clear side and leave solid top to hammer. The mentioned angle is an estimate of the top of my head. Other wise I would start with a stub and drill then jobbers to just past halfway and flip stock around repeat drilling with stub and jobbers. This way you are drilling half as far minimizing the runout and wandering. But i would seirously look at drilling it in such away it breaks completely thru side at about half way point

[ohland]

Center it and drill a start hole in the lathe about 1/4" deep. set in vee block at 15* - 20* and drill and indicate center hole to zero and drill hole thru at an angle this will allow hole to clear side and leave solid top to hammer. The mentioned angle is an estimate of the top of my head. Other wise I would start with a stub and drill then jobbers to just past halfway and flip stock around repeat drilling with stub and jobbers. This way you are drilling half as far minimizing the runout and wandering. But i would seirously look at drilling it in such away it breaks completely thru side at about half way point

Wow, I thought I was getting ready to pass out tonight, and all this angularity has me clutching my pillow in fear.

My original thought was drilling this bolt on the center line as was originally attemped. But you seem to be envisioning this to be off-axis.... Do you have an image of your expected endstate?

Other than the diameter of the drilled hole and the size of bolt used as raw stock, I am oblivious to the final finished shape all this is going to. I'll have to verify this, my vague recollection is this screws into a loading press, a punch goes up the drilled hole, there is an "arm" that goes over the exit, and you feed a strip of wad material from the side.

Sleep will elude me tonight.

[country gent]

I was thinking a hammer wad punch. for press ran then hole thru center is required. My mistake on what was my misundetstanding. Anothe thing is to turn the head or top of die so a lee container set on it to catch wads maybe. Will size isnt critical on the finished wad the punch to hole and actual die plate will be to get a clean cut from punch. Not a big issue though. I would drill and ream hole drill turn punch to fit from cold roll harden top plate if possible. relieve back of punch leaving a lip about 3/16 down from face of punch. By using cold rolled punch and hardened plate when punch gets dull you lightly peen it with a small smooth faced hammer and then run thru the hardened plate to shear new cutting edge. Quick and simple. no need to reface cut or grinf just a quick light peening and shear thru./ Am sorry for any dicomfort caused by my misunderstanding.