Are your HPs too hard

[ace1001]

Here is my problem. I need a high MV and soft lead so the HP works properly. So the only solution I can see is a gas check. Soft lead leads my barrel. Harder alloys won't flair. Have you done testing? Ace

[beagle]

You didn't say what caliber you were using or gun or bullet. I'm assuming pistols here.

In my experience with HPs, .38 Specials, 9mms and .45 ACPs will open at 50 yards if launched from about 900-1000 FPS. I'm using Ruger Blackhawks and convetible cylinders here so I can attain a little more velocity than you can with autos.

At 100 yards, the .38 Special, .357 Mag, .44 Mag and .45 Colt will open at 1100 FSP and above.

This is with WW alloy softened with a bit of pure lead. Pretty soft but still accurate and no leading if you use bullets that are large enough in diameter. I'm going on recovered bullets from a clay berm and not in any kind of media that gives realistic epansion as flesh would.

With rifles and normal cast velocities, there are no issues as everything I've used has expanded./beagle

[ace1001]

45 Colt and 38 spcl. Range should not matter only hardness and velocity at impact. My WW HPs performed like RNFPs at 1550 FPS. I'm afraid to push soft lead that hard without a GC, and then it is just cheaper to buy them. Nosler HPs have worked well, very soft and jacketed. I don't use many of them. Ace

[HeavyMetal]

I will suggest we need more information on bullet type, mold maker, that you are working with.

Also type of pistol, age make barrel length. Lets face it a 2 inch 357 is not the same gun as an 8 inch 357 and I don't care who says so!

I did know a guy that owned a 358156 hollow point Lyman mold, I had a Lee 215 Hollow point. we got his to expand in mud but not the 44. Final decision was the Lee had to "short" a cavity on it to work.

I believe bullet design and not alloy will play the larger part in getting a cast hollow point to work. I just can't believe we make harder lead bullets than the Jacketed bullets that do expand!


I am also looking for ideas on this subject!

[Glen]

Ace -- how are you doing you expansion testing? When I cast HPs out of WW alloy and then shoot them at 1550s they expand violently, to the point of fragmenting.

For .38 Special +P (1000 fps muzzle velocity), I cast plain-based HPs at a BHN of about 8, and they expand just fine. I use the same recipe for .45 Colt. If impact velocity drops below about 900 fps, then expansion gets iffy with this alloy. I use BHN 8-10 alloy for my cast HPs for muzzle velocities up to about 1200 fps. For full-house magnum velocities (e.g. 1400 fps), then I cast my HPs out of a little harder stuff (BHN 11-13).

[beagle]

Range has a definite input as it affects impact velocity.

That's what I was alluding to in my first post. The .38 Specials, 9mms and .45 ACPs are definitely 50 yard performers and also the .45 Colt if you're sticking to factory velocities. After 50 yards, the velocity will drop off to the point where they won't expand.

I think we're saying the same thing here. I just stated it differently./beagle


45 Colt and 38 spcl. Range should not matter only hardness and velocity at impact. My WW HPs performed like RNFPs at 1550 FPS. I'm afraid to push soft lead that hard without a GC, and then it is just cheaper to buy them. Nosler HPs have worked well, very soft and jacketed. I don't use many of them. Ace

[ace1001]

One is a 230 gr Lee mold, probably like your 44 only this is .452 propelled by 25 gr WC820. This is a starting .454 load, from a Rossi 92, 24 inch barrel. It went through one side of oil drum 36 inches of wet ashes and imprinted its unflatted self on the far side. This was traveling well over 1600 FPS. I also have a Lyman mold which may do better. Ace

[HeavyMetal]

Ace:
I think you've hit the nail on the head!

I had a suspesion your were working with a lee mold! As you know by now the "hollow" Point lacks depth for the hollow point! I never looked at the 45 mold but my 44 was less than the depth of the of the bullet nose.

I think you will have much better luck with the lyman design depending on what it is. Odd that you punched a oil drum and that didn't cause some deformation?

Are we talking steel or plastic drum? Bear in mind a plastic drum might just "cork" the hole in the end of the bullet.

[ace1001]

Steel drum and the bullet chronos at 1850fps! still did not expand. Ace

[cbrick]

ace1001,

I suspect your problem is too much velocity rather than too little. Also the steel drum is probably closing the HP cavity entering the drum before any liquid could expand it.

Glen Fyxell has many articles here on the cast hollow points and he has done much testing with alloys and velocity. Read these and see if it helps solve this problem.

The Articles of Glen E. Fryxell (http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm)

Hope this helps,

Rick

[yondering]

First of all, HP's aren't intended to expand on steel drums. That's not how they work. (There are bullets that intentionally expand that way, but that's another topic) That first impact with the steel oil drum may have closed the hollow point up so it acted as a solid, or the bit of steel it punched out of the drum may have stayed over the nose, preventing any fluid from expanding the nose cavity.

Hollow point bullets expand from pressure, NOT impact. Theoretically, you could expand a bullet by spraying it with your garden hose, if the water flow and pressure were high enough.

In the testing I've done with hollow points, including my own cast boolits and jacketed bullets in 9mm, .357, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt by most major ammo makers, here is what I've learned:

Shape:
Size of the hollow point matters a lot. Both diameter and depth. Larger diameter hollow points open up quicker, and are more reliable. Small diameter hollow points are more easily plugged up on impact. Deep hollow points are needed for quick expansion and for larger mushrooms.

Velocity:
Depending on bullet design (talking about boolits and bullets here), your hollow points could expand as low as 600 fps, or not open at all at 3000 fps. The goal, of course, is to choose a boolit design and lead alloy that will work for the velocity envelope you need.

Alloy:
Straight WW alloy is too brittle to work really well in HP boolits. ACWW HP's will open up, but often fragment. For light 38 Spl and 45 Colt handgun velocity, 50/50 WW/pure mix works well because it's soft, but a 75/25 WW/pure mix is about perfect, giving the right balance of ductility and strength. A good HP design with this alloy should open up at 800 fps easily, but hold together up to 1200 fps or so.
For higher velocity in your Puma 92 rifle, use this alloy, and heat treat or water drop the boolits. This will make them harder, so they don't blow up, but will still be ductile enough not to shatter.

Test media:
Firing hollow point bullets into wood, sheetrock, sand, gravel, or steel plates does not test how well the bullet expands. Hollow points expand from hydraulic pressure in the nose cavity, which forces the walls of the nose outward. To test this, you need a soft wet test medium that won't plug the nose cavity. Gelatin is good, but harder to prepare, and expensive (for our purposes). Wet newspaper (soaked overnight) is my favorite. I put them in a cardboard box to soak, and shoot at the box. Milk jugs full of water are quick and easy to use (most 45 ACP hollow points will penetrate 3-4 in a row) but will exaggerate the expansion, and make the boolit look "prettier" than it would in real use. Mud might work, but is too inconsistent with bits of hard rock, sticks, or leaves mixed in. Some like wet sawdust, but I think it's too fibrous, and sometimes plugs the nose cavity, giving inconsistent results. Dry sawdust is no good.

I don't know what your Lee boolit looks like, can you post a picture? You might be able to have someone on this forum make you a larger and deeper hollow point pin for that. Another option, if you use a lubrisizer, is to persuade Miha to send you a hollow point top punch for his 452-200gr mold. This is a pointed top punch, that will open up your existing hollow point to more useful dimensions. (Easier to do with soft alloy, works fine with 75/25 and won't hurt the sizer press, but don't try it with WDWW.) It is the same shape as the HP cavity in Miha's 452-200 boolit, which is a very good hollow point design.

Hope that helps!

[fredj338]

Steel drum and the bullet chronos at 1850fps! still did not expand. Ace

FYI, you don't test any bullet expansiuon by shooting thru a steel drum. The steel is likely deforming the HP & a HP needs some liquid medium for best expansion. The design fo the HP is as important as the alloy. I have posted many pics before of LHP, mostly cast of 25-1 aloy. Fired into wetpack or water, they expand quite nicely from 850fps to 1225fps depending on te HP design. Leading is minimal if any.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
I get more fragmentation w/ WW alloy, too much antimony. They do ok w/ 50/50 ww/lead. I find a shallower HP actually works better @ higher impact vel. The 44mag dev. was modified to give more of a cup point so it will hold it's expansion @ higher IV.

[44man]

The only problem I have is when I soften boolits, like 50-50 WW and pure, the PB loses accuracy big time. Going to a gas check will bring back accuracy. Even though neither boolit causes leading for me, skidding the rifling is a possibility with the PB.
You do not need a hollow point or soft lead in the .44, .45 or .475 with a large meplat but if you speed the boolit up like the .454, .460 or 45-70, then you need expansion.
I feel it is a waste of time fooling with soft lead and hollow points at the moderate velocities up to maybe 1400 fps.
Now small calibers DO need expansion as much as faster boolits.
Perfessor deer is a great teacher! [smilie=l:

[Larry Gibson]

45 Colt and 38 spcl. Range should not matter only hardness and velocity at impact. My WW HPs performed like RNFPs at 1550 FPS. I'm afraid to push soft lead that hard without a GC, and then it is just cheaper to buy them. Nosler HPs have worked well, very soft and jacketed. I don't use many of them. Ace

For many years I've shot 358156 GC'd and 452490 GC'd cast of plian lead in the .38 Special and .45AR and .45 Colt at +P velocities of 1000 fps or so. I use Javelina lube and get no leading. I HP Both bullets with a Forster 1/8" HP tool to a depth to the base of the bullet nose. Expansion out to 50 yards is good and in the .38 Special it matches expansion of the Winchester and Federal "FBI" loads. For mor rapid expansin in the .45s I use a sharply tapered reamer (Micheals drill for the rear sling swivel stud) to further open the HP. With the 358156 I cast it of 50/50 newer WWs and lead and drive it to 1400+fps out of my 6" Ruger Security Six. Expansion is everything you'd want and it definately is a quicker killer on coyotes and deer than when not HP'd and cast hard. This is based on a large amount of testing using newsprint wetpack and the actual results of killing animals.

Obviously I do not use these specially cast and HP'd bullets for general shooting, practice and plinking. However for hunting I prefer a HP cast bullet in handguns and rifles when using cast bullets up through 2200 fps. Granted, with cast bullets having a flat meplat you do not "need" expansion to kill game. However I prefer to kill them as quickly and as efficiently as I can. Therefor i do not consider using HP'd cast bullets as "a waste of time". That is simply my opinion, others are certainly entitled to there's and you muct make up your own mind on what is or isn't a "waste of time" to you.

I prefer soft cast, GC'd and HP'd cast bullets that expand for hunting and self defense.

Larry Gibson

[fredj338]

Obviously I do not use these specially cast and HP'd bullets for general shooting, practice and plinking. However for hunting I prefer a HP cast bullet in handguns and rifles when using cast bullets up through 2200 fps. Granted, with cast bullets having a flat meplat you do not "need" expansion to kill game. However I prefer to kill them as quickly and as efficiently as I can. Therefor i do not consider using HP'd cast bullets as "a waste of time". That is simply my opinion, others are certainly entitled to there's and you muct make up your own mind on what is or isn't a "waste of time" to you.

I prefer soft cast, GC'd and HP'd cast bullets that expand for hunting and self defense.

Larry Gibson
Agree, as long as you get good penetration, expansion is a good thing.

[44man]

Agree, as long as you get good penetration, expansion is a good thing.
Exactly right. Open a .357 too fast and kill penetration=lost game. True for many other calibers too.
Balance is needed. A boolit that blows a jug of water sky high can do zero to an animal.

[fredj338]

Exactly right. Open a .357 too fast and kill penetration=lost game. True for many other calibers too.
Balance is needed. A boolit that blows a jug of water sky high can do zero to an animal.

Yep, it's why I have been experimenting w/ cup points instead of true HP. The Lyman Dev. mold pictured would lose the nose everytime much past 900fps. Going to a cup point gives me more wt. & more bullet to support some expansion. I can drive that now 270grLHP to 1250fps & still retain most of the wt. Cast hard enough to not expand & the cup point still offers some tissue disruption, at least as shown on wetpack. I look forward to trying it out on some game.

[Larry Gibson]

Exactly right. Open a .357 too fast and kill penetration=lost game. True for many other calibers too.
Balance is needed. A boolit that blows a jug of water sky high can do zero to an animal.

I believe that concept to be invalid with cast bullets on varmints and game up through deer. I have shot many of them with 1400+ fps 358156 HPs cast of very soft alloy and "penetration" is not an issue. Very few bullets were recovered as most side shots were through and through. Where I have seen "game lost" after being shot with handguns using cast bullets was with the classic "behind the shoulder" shot with a heavy hardcast bullet with a large meplat. Truthfully that is often a poor shot to use with HPs also. However, a properly expanding HP (the topic of this thread) will produce more internal damage and the deer will die quicker. This means they will not travel as far.

Again, penetration has never been an issue. If it is in either a .38 Special or a .45 Colt (the subject of this thread) then your cast bullets are deficient as was your testing. A properly cast HP for either the .38 Special or the .45 Colt is not hard to do and they definately enhance terminal performance.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I believe that concept to be invalid with cast bullets on varmints and game up through deer. I have shot many of them with 1400+ fps 358156 HPs cast of very soft alloy and "penetration" is not an issue. Very few bullets were recovered as most side shots were through and through. Where I have seen "game lost" after being shot with handguns using cast bullets was with the classic "behind the shoulder" shot with a heavy hardcast bullet with a large meplat. Truthfully that is often a poor shot to use with HPs also. However, a properly expanding HP (the topic of this thread) will produce more internal damage and the deer will die quicker. This means they will not travel as far.

Again, penetration has never been an issue. If it is in either a .38 Special or a .45 Colt (the subject of this thread) then your cast bullets are deficient as was your testing. A properly cast HP for either the .38 Special or the .45 Colt is not hard to do and they definately enhance terminal performance.

Larry Gibson

+1 for what Larry said. This time he has his information and methodology correct.

[BABore]

+1 for what Larry said. This time he has his information and methodology correct.

Holy Sheep Batman!


This one should be marked as a sticky.


I do agree with it 100% though. Penetration, rate of expansion, and how it kills can all be tweaked with alloy, cavity diameter or nose wall thickness, and cavity depth. Thorough testing is required at all intended ranges.

[44man]

+1 for what Larry said. This time he has his information and methodology correct.
That is what I said, expansion along with penetration is a good thing but if the boolit comes apart or stops, it is not good.
I seen it many times with a .44, 240 gr XTP at the velocity it is accurate, just reaching the off side skin and stopping. Very poor blood trails and if I had not seen the deer drop or followed the direction, I could have lost them. If I had slowed the boolit a little, I would have had 2 holes.
You must reach a balance of expansion, penetration and internal damage.
A hard WLN or WFN does not have to be shot fast to work, in fact too fast can fail. Too slow also just makes a small hole. Hard cast works at certain speeds but when you get either side of those speeds, then controlled expansion improves things.
I can say the heavy WLN and WFN from a .44, .45 or .475 will put a deer down fast with a behind the shoulder shot. It is when you stray from velocities or boolit diameter and weight that you will have trouble. To use a boolit that blows a chipmunk to smithereens on a deer is a little off base. I would rather use a good boolit on the deer to start with and I can guarantee a chipmunk will not run away.
If you are looking for a high velocity, light hollow point for the .44, you might change your mind fast after losing most deer hit with them.

[45 2.1]

Holy Sheep Batman!


This one should be marked as a sticky.


I do agree with it 100% though. Penetration, rate of expansion, and how it kills can all be tweaked with alloy, cavity diameter or nose wall thickness, and cavity depth. Thorough testing is required at all intended ranges.


See, your guilty too.................. Except for Jim

[45 2.1]

If you are looking for a high velocity, light hollow point for the .44, you might change your mind fast after losing most deer hit with them.

We don't use jacketed at all................... I've lost deer shot with your method and lost none with mine. I'll stay doing it my way. I don't shoot cannons at deer either, they're not that hard to kill. A 170 to 210 gr. HP boolit at 950 to 1050 fps that is correctly designed will make them drop in place. Put all the energy in the deer's frontal body cavity and not in the background behind it, thats the key.

[Larry Gibson]

We don't use jacketed at all................... I've lost deer shot with your method and lost none with mine. I'll stay doing it my way. I don't shoot cannons at deer either, they're not that hard to kill. A 170 to 210 gr. HP boolit at 950 to 1050 fps that is correctly designed will make them drop in place. Put all the energy in the deer's frontal body cavity and not in the background behind it, thats the key.

+1 for 45 2.1, looks like we agree again:-)

Larry Gibson

BaBore; don't have the big "H" on us now;-)

[44man]

I have shot many, many deer behind the shoulder for a double lung shot with hard cast WLN and WFN boolits. Never lost one with the .44, .45 or .475. Internal damage and blood trails are enormous. Velocities run from 1167 to 1330 FPS.
If the boolit is a little softer and has some expansion but does not lose penetration, is it better? NO, they both work but there is no harm having a good balance.
Now shoot the same hard cast at 1630 FPS and internal damage is just not there, just a hole poked through the lungs and lungs will be mostly intact. Now is the time for expansion.
Same as sub calibers like the .357. Fast guns like the .454, .460 and 45-70 NEED expansion.
No matter what anyone says, I want two holes in my animals, I do not believe in "energy dump" or "muzzle energy." If my boolit does the job to the innards, I don't care if 50,000# is dumped into the ground.
I just shot a deer tonight with my .54 muzzle loader and a round ball. A .54 caliber hole in and out but the heart was GONE, just strands hanging, bang-flop with a few kicks. Scott had to use my rifle because all he got was a pop with his. He also had a bang-flop on a deer. Shoot a big bore revolver at the same velocity and all of a sudden the boolit needs a hollow point!
I guess all the deer the muzzle loader has killed is wrong. The ball should stay in the deer! :takinWiz:

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my experience with cast hps on game. The only deer i shot with one was two does using the lyman 44 devestator cast out of pure lead in a sabot in a 50 cal muzzle loader. It did massive damage and dumped both deer in there tracks. Only other animals i shot with hps were buffalo and hogs. The hog my wife shot with a 4570 with a hollow pointed 420 group buy lfngc bullet cast out of 5050 ww/pure. Massive damage dumped in its tracks but no exit. Two buffalo. One shot with a lyman devestator cast out of ww with 2 percent tin at 1200 fps. Bullet lost its nose but exited the far side. Hit behind the shoulder and it died very quickly. It was a pretty severe test of this bullet and i wouldnt want to bet on it working every time but it worked this once. The other hp kills were two sheep and a buffalo my buddy and i shot one day with 450lfngc bullets out of a 500 linebaugh. These were cast out of 5050 ww/pure and did pourly. they only penetrated about 6 inches and stopped cold and didnt even hit bone. My thoughts were that the .512s were so big to start with that having them expand just made them into a big parachute. They probably would have been wicked on something like a deer thats easier to penetrate but personaly i think that when game gets over 500 lbs its time for a hardcast lfn or swc and when bullet size gets over 45 cal an expanded bullet is about like trying to shoot a coke bottle through something. I dont really buy into 44 mans thoughts that there no good in the smaller calibers. It takes some though as to velocity vs alloy but if casted properly i think they are ideal in smaller calibers. I allways found the .357 and even the 41 a little light in the knock down catagory and a hp would no doubt help this a bunch. Cast properly it wouldnt be a problem to get complete penetration. If i can punch one through a 1000 lb buffalo a deer sure isnt going to stop one. What I agree that 44man said was that its not really needed. Ive killed a truck load of deer with lfns and swcs and even wfns and havent lost one yet. A hp may put one down a few yards quicker but isnt going to be the differnce in killing and wounding. one thing ill add to the 512 results is in all three cases we used a hp that had a pretty huge hp cavity and im sure some more fooling with cavity size and alloy would change the results some.

[waksupi]

Now shoot the same hard cast at 1630 FPS and internal damage is just not there, just a hole poked through the lungs and lungs will be mostly intact.

I don't understand this. When I have shot deer with the 6.5 Swede at 1700 fps muzzle velocity, I am fairly certain the velocity has dropped to at least 1600 fps before impact. I do recall posting autopsy photos on either this board, or the old Aimoo of the damage. The lungs had a hole about 1 1/2" through them, and an angling shot through the liver made a star shaped shatter, around 5-6" across. This was with a flat nosed boolit.
Are you saying handgun boolits will not do this? My experience on deer and antelope with handguns have gave good wound channels.

[44man]

I don't understand this. When I have shot deer with the 6.5 Swede at 1700 fps muzzle velocity, I am fairly certain the velocity has dropped to at least 1600 fps before impact. I do recall posting autopsy photos on either this board, or the old Aimoo of the damage. The lungs had a hole about 1 1/2" through them, and an angling shot through the liver made a star shaped shatter, around 5-6" across. This was with a flat nosed boolit.
Are you saying handgun boolits will not do this? My experience on deer and antelope with handguns have gave good wound channels.
Apples and oranges. Everyone has a different opinion based on what they do or where an animal is hit with what gun.
Now listen up. Take a revolver boolit with a WFN at 1300 fps and put it through the lungs, no bones. Now take the same boolit at over 1600 fps and hit the deer in the same place. Now tell me what you see.
Why is there so much friction when one of us says something can cause a problem? All of a sudden everyone jumps in and says they did this or that but no thought at all is given to facts.
The strangest thing I read in these posts is that nobody ever lost an animal. When one is lost, do you EVER wonder why?
I do a necropsy on every animal. Nothing is left to chance for future shots.
Don't give me the crap that boolit placement counts because many of you can't place any handgun boolit exactly no matter what you do. Show me 4" groups at 25 yards and then tell me you can place a boolit just right at 100 yards only tells me you are full of it.
Does a single one of you think I might have a point to consider or do you just blow it off?
I shoot smaller revolver groups then you ever thought possible but I DO lose a deer now and then so I study the event because I do not want a repeat. I am not a superman like some of you profess to be. I am accurate, much more so then almost all of you. If something fails and I post, why do I get so much flack?
Can any of you realize I am trying to help and not brag like so many do?

[BABore]

Apples and oranges. Everyone has a different opinion based on what they do or where an animal is hit with what gun.
Now listen up. Take a revolver boolit with a WFN at 1300 fps and put it through the lungs, no bones. Now take the same boolit at over 1600 fps and hit the deer in the same place. Now tell me what you see.
Why is there so much friction when one of us says something can cause a problem? All of a sudden everyone jumps in and says they did this or that but no thought at all is given to facts.
The strangest thing I read in these posts is that nobody ever lost an animal. When one is lost, do you EVER wonder why?
I do a necropsy on every animal. Nothing is left to chance for future shots.
Don't give me the crap that boolit placement counts because many of you can't place any handgun boolit exactly no matter what you do. Show me 4" groups at 25 yards and then tell me you can place a boolit just right at 100 yards only tells me you are full of it.
Does a single one of you think I might have a point to consider or do you just blow it off?
I shoot smaller revolver groups then you ever thought possible but I DO lose a deer now and then so I study the event because I do not want a repeat. I am not a superman like some of you profess to be. I am accurate, much more so then almost all of you. If something fails and I post, why do I get so much flack?
Can any of you realize I am trying to help and not brag like so many do?

Come on. Fess up!

You get Buck Fever and shoot them in the hind shoulders.
:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[yondering]

Come on. Fess up!

You get Buck Fever and shoot them in the hind shoulders.
:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

I'll fess up to that! Not the hind shoulders, but a complete miss. I'm a decent shot with a handgun, and can generally beat my friends in competition, but last time I tried for a deer with my 45 Colt, the shot went just under the belly. I know I could make the same shot on a tin can no problem, guess I just got excited.
The weird part is, with a rifle or shotgun this has only affected me after the shot though; I 'bout fell out of my tree last fall after shooting a nice 10 point whitetail with my whelen.:veryconfu

We're off topic though; let's get back to alloy for hollow points.

Who else here has tried heat treated 50/50 ww/pure alloy for hollow points? The ideal alloy for hollow points would have the ductility of pure lead, and the hardness to match impact velocity. For 1100-1400 fps (45 Colt and 44 Mag hunting velocity) I think ACWW is about the right hardness (opens up properly) but too brittle (sheds the nose). Thoughts?

[Larry Gibson]

As to not finding the deer; there are numerous different types of terrain and cover. There are numerous and different types of weather conditions. There are numerous types of deer ((3 different types and a whole range of size difference depending where you hunt). What this means in a lot of conditions is a lot of terrain and weather conditions tracking or observing the deer after the shot is not difficult even for inexperienced hunters. However, some of might want to consider the difference between tracking a deer in a rain forest (try western Oregon and Washington) when it is raining at what most parts of the world call a "monsoon". Conversely in the wide open rim rock country canyon of NE and SE Oregon about the last thing you want is a shot mule deer to go off the rim and travel to the bottom of a canyon before dying. I hunt around Hells CanyonImnaha Canyon and Joseph Canyon. Those are 1, 3/4 and 1/2 mile deep respectfully. You really want a bullet that expands and kills as quick as possible there. A shot "behind the heart" kills but not very quick. Also if I was hunting the monster bucks of the Piedmont in NC or many of the southern states I'd also want a fast stepping HP and would want them dead very quick. I really fail to see the need for a 310 gr hard cast bullet for a deer hardly bigger than a german shepard in that local.

It does indeed boil down to ones opinion and what works best under his hunting condidtions. No one here is "right" in every context and certainly no one is "wrong". A hard cast bullet of any legal handgun cartridge will certainly kill any deer out there. So will a "behind the shoulder" shot. So will a well cast HP in a .38 or a .45 Colt. Those are not "magnums" and do not have the benifit of sufficient velocity to push a heavy hard cast bullet at magnum velocities. They can however push a soft lead HP at sufficient velocity that expansion can be had in deer out to 50 yards. Such expansion provides addition terminal effect that a similar hardcast bullet would not have. Again, that is my opinion based on the killing of many, many deer and similar animals with those two cartridges along with the .44 Special and the .45 AR of which both are similar.

Larry Gibson

[GLynn41]

My experience with the LWNGC in a .41 has been good but I am going to try a hp 410459 -- hp to under the front driving band -- and some notches cut into the nose -- I have good instant expansion on plastic covered very news print- I look at the first couple of inches and then test for pent. so far I am well satisfied with what i have seen-- the sold LBT style did about the same on deer as the NP so i have good expectations-- the holes have been way above an NEI keith or the solid 410459 -- and equal to the LBTs -- btw mine will go through 9+" of very wet NP even with expansion and exit with a spray from 77 steps-- my alloy is range lead ww, and some very soft lead I have a bunch of and the bullet weighs 208 gr-- for once i wish a hardness tester -- I have been reading up on home made and will try one soon

[BABore]

I'll fess up to that! Not the hind shoulders, but a complete miss. I'm a decent shot with a handgun, and can generally beat my friends in competition, but last time I tried for a deer with my 45 Colt, the shot went just under the belly. I know I could make the same shot on a tin can no problem, guess I just got excited.
The weird part is, with a rifle or shotgun this has only affected me after the shot though; I 'bout fell out of my tree last fall after shooting a nice 10 point whitetail with my whelen.:veryconfu

We're off topic though; let's get back to alloy for hollow points.

Who else here has tried heat treated 50/50 ww/pure alloy for hollow points? The ideal alloy for hollow points would have the ductility of pure lead, and the hardness to match impact velocity. For 1100-1400 fps (45 Colt and 44 Mag hunting velocity) I think ACWW is about the right hardness (opens up properly) but too brittle (sheds the nose). Thoughts?

Water dropped 50/50 WW-Pb is what I normally use for HP's. Especially at magnum velocities. I also shoot it air cooled 50/50 if that's what the gun shows an accuracy preference to. Air cooled, at magunum velocities, may require adjustment to the HP cavity to keep it more intact. Alternately, A gun that likes a WD 50/50 boolit, but is only capable of more modest velocity, can be tweaked. Sometimes cavity size and depth will work fine. You can also torch anneal the nose to soften up the front end.

All that said, there's nothing wrong with blowing the nose off of a HP in the first 3-4 inches of penetration. What must be considered is how much of the shank is left to give full penetration. This can be tweaked with cavity depth. I much prefer a heavier weight boolit for this. A 300 grain, 44 boolit cal., that looses 50 grains of nose from rapid expansion and shedding has plenty of mass and length for complete penetration. Rapid nose expansion and shedding, which creates a huge initial wound channel, followed by lengthy penetration of much smaller wound channel Is highly desirable. At least that's the thinking of all those that swear by the Nosler Partition as that's exactly how they perform.

[44man]

See now, Babore explains it right and I will be using his 50-50 hollow points this season from the 45-70 BFR. This gun will NOT put deer on the ground unless I break both shoulders, lung shots are useless. Even a 378 gr WFN does nothing to lungs but punch a clean hole through them. 200 yard tracking jobs. IT IS TOO FAST for a hard boolit.
Now a hard WLN from the .44 will just jelly both lungs.
I have asked before about a "dead zone" and have no idea if the 45-70 boolit gets real destructive if it is shot a lot faster.
Nothing wrong with a hollow point in the .44 as long as you follow what Babore has said. Use a heavy enough boolit of the proper alloy. I have found just a good meplat works fine though.
Now deer hit in the lungs with the hard cast .475 boolit don't go anywhere, they smash into trees and brush for about 20 yards and it is over. Shock must be amazing.
It is when someone answers about what their rifle does where things get out of whack about what a boolit does. Make the rifle a large enough caliber and shoot the boolit at around 1300 fps and then you get results like a big revolver. It is hard to compare a 6.5 or .30 cal to a revolver. I am not going to profess what to use in a rifle because I just don't know.
But after shooting many, many deer with revolvers and seeing how miserable the 45-70 kills with hard boolits, I had to come to a conclusion. I even went to jacketed one season!!! Then I made the WFN and gave it a try---still miserable. You would think I was shooting armor piercing.
I have told you before that after such great results with hard cast from my revolvers, I thought the 45-70 would be a whiz bang because it is faster. WHAT A LET DOWN! :veryconfu
My faith in the gun will come back with Babore's boolits.
I still say if you shoot a deer with a 180 gr HP at 1800 fps from your .44, you will run back to the drawing board and even with 240 gr HP's you will start to lose the other hole that you really need for tracking. All deer do not drop on the spot. A deer with it's heart blown away can still make 100 yards. I never timed it but it appears a hurt deer gets 100 yards in 10 seconds! [smilie=s:

[fredj338]

Who else here has tried heat treated 50/50 ww/pure alloy for hollow points? The ideal alloy for hollow points would have the ductility of pure lead, and the hardness to match impact velocity. For 1100-1400 fps (45 Colt and 44 Mag hunting velocity) I think ACWW is about the right hardness (opens up properly) but too brittle (sheds the nose). Thoughts?
I agree that ACWW are still too brittle. I lose the nose on just about every LHP deisgn I have. A 50/50 mix is better, but still a bit brittle. I settled on 25-1 alloy w/ larger LHP & 50/50 for cup pints.

[yondering]

All that said, there's nothing wrong with blowing the nose off of a HP in the first 3-4 inches of penetration. What must be considered is how much of the shank is left to give full penetration. This can be tweaked with cavity depth. I much prefer a heavier weight boolit for this. A 300 grain, 44 boolit cal., that looses 50 grains of nose from rapid expansion and shedding has plenty of mass and length for complete penetration. Rapid nose expansion and shedding, which creates a huge initial wound channel, followed by lengthy penetration of much smaller wound channel Is highly desirable. At least that's the thinking of all those that swear by the Nosler Partition as that's exactly how they perform.

Agreed. Love the Partition's in my Whelen, they are like lightning on deer.
I shoot the 330gr Gould boolit sized down to .452" in my 45 Colt. Nice deep hollow point (which I enlarge with Miha's pointed nose punch in the lubersizer), but plenty of shank left. Even with a pure lead nose and WDWW base, I don't have to worry about not enough penetration.
On lighter boolits though, like Miha's 200gr 45 HP, when the nose is shed because of brittle alloy, the remaining base has similar dimensions to a button on your shirt; not much there to continue penetrating. For this kind of boolit, I want the nose to stay attached, even if it has to fold around behind the base and form a round ball.

GLynn41, for notches in the nose, try using a square sided pointed nose punch in the lubersizer, like this (see my post, #64):http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55775&page=4

For a home-made hardness tester, look at mountain molds website, they have a good writeup. I use that method; the critical thing is to test with the press ram at the same spot every time. I filed a small notch in my ram as an index point. If you do some careful calculations (weight * handle movement / ram movement) you can get pretty close on the force exerted by the ram.

[Greg]

I believe that concept to be invalid with cast bullets on varmints and game up through deer. I have shot many of them with 1400+ fps 358156 HPs cast of very soft alloy and "penetration" is not an issue. Very few bullets were recovered as most side shots were through and through. Where I have seen "game lost" after being shot with handguns using cast bullets was with the classic "behind the shoulder" shot with a heavy hardcast bullet with a large meplat. Truthfully that is often a poor shot to use with HPs also. However, a properly expanding HP (the topic of this thread) will produce more internal damage and the deer will die quicker. This means they will not travel as far.

Again, penetration has never been an issue. If it is in either a .38 Special or a .45 Colt (the subject of this thread) then your cast bullets are deficient as was your testing. A properly cast HP for either the .38 Special or the .45 Colt is not hard to do and they definately enhance terminal performance.

Larry Gibson

Larry-

I have a few questions...

Only deer that I've shot with lead ( 12ga Deer Slugs) I've learned that put a slug on the scapula and you have a short tracking job and it's cleaning time. Put the same slug thru the ribs and the deer might cover a few hundred yards ( hard wood covered hills / public hunting ground ) lost deer ( usually tagged by someone else.

so my question becomes, where do you like to aim / place your cast hollow points ?

I'm planning on using 50:50 ww/pb a 358156 HP and and h110 / 357 magnum, velocities @1400+ fps. HP pin is .125 tapered, and reaches to the top driving band.

50:50 alloy that I stirred up results in 6 BHN as air cooled and heat treats (450º for 30 min) to 16 BHN

It’s about six weeks until Deer season, which is a long wait, but not a lot of prep time

[Ricochet]

My Uncle Don killed many deer over the years with his old S&W .44 Magnum (I don't think they called it a "Model 29" yet when it was made) loaded with #429244HP cast of a very soft alloy. Those were the first cast boolits I saw, BTW, and I hunted till I found one of those moulds for myself. I load mine to around 1450 FPS out of my Super Blackhawk, and the ones I've made were cast from very soft scrap that has just enough alloying impurities to harden up about like aircooled wheelweights after water dropping. I've shot some into puddles with very soupy mud at the bottom, and the nose around the cavity blew completely off with the base left in a little "button" expanded right down to the gas check. I no longer hunt, but I'd expect them to work well on a broadside deer. I don't know that the "Texas heart shot" would make it to vitals, as I didn't have to dig deep in the mud to find them.

The same soft alloy in Lee's 429-255-SWC (solid nose) weighs 273 grains, and shot into the same mud puddles at 1350 FPS made huge mushrooms around 7/8" diameter, likewise expanded back to the boolit base, and retaining much more mass. I didn't have to dig much deeper to find those, come to think of it. Both sorts of boolits sure did make big splashes, and big craters!

[TDC]

A very interesting thread, guys!!

I've been hunting with cast HP's in a .44 Mag for almost 4 decades. I've killed 5 large bull elk and 4 black bear with that gun and its loads and been present when many more have been shot with various handguns. I've shot deer, both Mule and Blacktail, and long ago lost count of the number....

This thread has great input from some of you guys who I know have "been there... done that." I especially relate to Larry Gibson and his experiences and findings. I've hunted much of the ruggedest and most remote areas of Oregon that he hunts and has hunted. The Snake River canyon, the Steens Mountain Wilderness and I believe the Eagle Cap Wilderness all have been his haunts. The Eagle Cap Wilderness is referred to as "The American Alps" so that can give some idea of the rugged landscape we hunt. The Snake River Canyon he hunts is the deepest canyon in north America so I relate to his wanting instant and very quick kills... Packing an 800lb bull out of that canyon after it ran to the bottom can be a two or three day chore if you don't have pack animals.... we're talking ground usually populated by Bighorn Sheep....

I find it very interesting the different conclusions people come to when discussing calibers and hp bullets. You guys are all into a "sientific methodology" of discussing these hp's far beyond my own capability. The only thing I can add to this thread is to say every big game animal I've killed with HP's has responded differently to an equally placed shot with an identical load.

From my experience there are so many unpredictable factors affecting a bullets killing effectiveness - none of which can be fully anticipated. Anyone who generalizes about a bullets performance being applicable to all or most big game animals is out in space somewhere. Anyone who shoots one animal and makes a judgment on a bullets effectiveness on that one example is making a serious mistake. The animals adrenaline, the shot angle and placement, hide thickness, bone mass and anything the bullet may contact will all impact how far the animal runs or how dead he is on the spot.

What works for me is a bullet that penetrates well but retains all its energy inside the animal. The narrow wound channel and two holes theory just doesn't work for me. I've seen bulls run for three miles or more hit well with solid nose bullets. The animals were running when hit and their moving hide covered the entrance and exit wounds, leaving very little blood trail and prohibiting them from bleeding out quickly. They can be amazingly tenacious animals even when mortally wounded....

Keep up the interesting posts, guys... I learn from all of you and appreciate the challenging exchanges.... I'll be using a new S&W 500 this year and will see if Lloyds experience with a .50 is true. Hoping to get the MiHec .502 Crammer mould soon that should have 4 different HP size options. I'll be using it on moose next year.

TDC

[44man]

A very interesting thread, guys!!

I've been hunting with cast HP's in a .44 Mag for almost 4 decades. I've killed 5 large bull elk and 4 black bear with that gun and its loads and been present when many more have been shot with various handguns. I've shot deer, both Mule and Blacktail, and long ago lost count of the number....

This thread has great input from some of you guys who I know have "been there... done that." I especially relate to Larry Gibson and his experiences and findings. I've hunted much of the ruggedest and most remote areas of Oregon that he hunts and has hunted. The Snake River canyon, the Steens Mountain Wilderness and I believe the Eagle Cap Wilderness all have been his haunts. The Eagle Cap Wilderness is referred to as "The American Alps" so that can give some idea of the rugged landscape we hunt. The Snake River Canyon he hunts is the deepest canyon in north America so I relate to his wanting instant and very quick kills... Packing an 800lb bull out of that canyon after it ran to the bottom can be a two or three day chore if you don't have pack animals.... we're talking ground usually populated by Bighorn Sheep....

I find it very interesting the different conclusions people come to when discussing calibers and hp bullets. You guys are all into a "sientific methodology" of discussing these hp's far beyond my own capability. The only thing I can add to this thread is to say every big game animal I've killed with HP's has responded differently to an equally placed shot with an identical load.

From my experience there are so many unpredictable factors affecting a bullets killing effectiveness - none of which can be fully anticipated. Anyone who generalizes about a bullets performance being applicable to all or most big game animals is out in space somewhere. Anyone who shoots one animal and makes a judgment on a bullets effectiveness on that one example is making a serious mistake. The animals adrenaline, the shot angle and placement, hide thickness, bone mass and anything the bullet may contact will all impact how far the animal runs or how dead he is on the spot.

What works for me is a bullet that penetrates well but retains all its energy inside the animal. The narrow wound channel and two holes theory just doesn't work for me. I've seen bulls run for three miles or more hit well with solid nose bullets. The animals were running when hit and their moving hide covered the entrance and exit wounds, leaving very little blood trail and prohibiting them from bleeding out quickly. They can be amazingly tenacious animals even when mortally wounded....

Keep up the interesting posts, guys... I learn from all of you and appreciate the challenging exchanges.... I'll be using a new S&W 500 this year and will see if Lloyds experience with a .50 is true. Hoping to get the MiHec .502 Crammer mould soon that should have 4 different HP size options. I'll be using it on moose next year.

TDC
A lot of common sense thinking but where we differ is energy dump. What you want is massive internal damage, a large primary would channel and TWO HOLES.
This is where boolit construction and proper velocity for THAT boolit is important. To have a boolit expand too fast or break apart and lose weight or zip right through with a small channel are all wrong.
You have to make the boolit do work inside the animal yet it is always best to have two holes no matter the POI, angle or distance the boolit needs to travel to hit vitals.
Two holes from a boolit that does no work can mean lost animals as can a boolit that pokes a small hole going in but stops in a few inches or comes apart on the first bone or large muscle.
Cast shooters are so hard to convince that a boolit good in one gun is hopeless in another.
Since jacketed bullets first came out, the factories have strived to make them work for everything, yet it still can not be done. Hunters pay big bucks for premium bullets tailored for certain game yet the cast shooter ignores all of it.
Once in a while the perfect combination comes along like the .475 Linebaugh. A hard cast WFN will blow up 4, one gallon jugs yet penetrate 14 like butter. Massive damage inside an animal yet there is no stopping the boolit.
So if you line up a few jugs and just blow up one, then catch the boolit, don't expect great results on anything you shoot 100% of the time. One can go down like struck by lightning but the next will be lost.
You have to take each caliber you have and work with it enough so it works with the right alloy and hardness for anything you shoot, then move to another gun.
How hard is it to expect that each caliber will need something different? All of you do it with jacketed bullets, cast is not magic, in fact it is HARDER to work with. :veryconfu

[BABore]

Larry-

I have a few questions...

Only deer that I've shot with lead ( 12ga Deer Slugs) I've learned that put a slug on the scapula and you have a short tracking job and it's cleaning time. Put the same slug thru the ribs and the deer might cover a few hundred yards ( hard wood covered hills / public hunting ground ) lost deer ( usually tagged by someone else.

so my question becomes, where do you like to aim / place your cast hollow points ?

I'm planning on using 50:50 ww/pb a 358156 HP and and h110 / 357 magnum, velocities @1400+ fps. HP pin is .125 tapered, and reaches to the top driving band.

50:50 alloy that I stirred up results in 6 BHN as air cooled and heat treats (450º for 30 min) to 16 BHN

It’s about six weeks until Deer season, which is a long wait, but not a lot of prep time

Not Larry, but with that boolit, at that velocity, I would be apt to place it a couple ribs back of the front shoulder. That boolit will grenade whether 6 or 16 bhn and take out both lungs. You will still get alot of bloodshot meat even there. Shot into the shoulder, your likely to get some hellacious damage and lost eats. Penetration may also be an issue with such a light boolit. I would expect a lost shoulder, about a 6" depth of tremendous damage, and just maybe a little piece of the shank falling out the far side. 357Max used the same boolit, out of a stubby, and dropped a deer DRT. Lost alot of bambi sammich's too. I much prefer a HP'd 180 grain for all around, shoot them from any angle, load. You got to expect the nose to blow off in the first 3-6 inches. What's left is all you got to give you an exit wound or complete the path to the vitals on a quartering shot.

[Leadforbrains]

I will repeat what some others have said in that this is a very interesting and informative correspondence between all the experienced cast boolit hunters here. I am learning alot from all of you. Thanks :drinks:

[leftiye]

The prevalent lost nose scenario is what I'd like to address. My first idea is that - despite the fact that somebody here said that a deep hollow point is needed for fast and complete expansion - is that fast and complete expansion is just what is not needed. Some expansion is what is needed. Hopefully with very little metal lost.

In other words, if you're going to explode the animal and drop it on the spot, you have to taylor the angle of impact, the range, restrict the material traveled through, the velocity at impact, etc.. This scenario utilizes a boolit that is not going to be a good all around vehicle for getting venison on the table, and will probly just be plain sadistic on larger animals, not to mention getting you killed if you piff off a bear with it.

The silver dollar size flying washers like you get out of the good old 400 grain Speer 45-70s upon impact at high velocity only work for a few inches of penetration (as Lloyd said). I try to design hollow points that only produce enough expansion to aggravate the wound channel, and don't obviate penetration. Smaller hollowpoints that act like enhanced soft points without losing large percentages of weight are one answer. Tougher metals can help too. Tin and copper both enhance the tensile strength of lead alloys, and help them to not shatter (stretch, and shear). Tin will alloy up to 10% with lead. Add 1% copper and this stuff air hardens to BHN18. A little too hard for the velocities we've been talking about? Maybe not when you use it with a devastator type hollow point design. If it won't expand then, take a page from the Barnes X-bulets, and dum dum it. But it really might hang together.

[Larry Gibson]

Greg

I have a few questions...

Only deer that I've shot with lead ( 12ga Deer Slugs) I've learned that put a slug on the scapula and you have a short tracking job and it's cleaning time. Put the same slug thru the ribs and the deer might cover a few hundred yards ( hard wood covered hills / public hunting ground ) lost deer ( usually tagged by someone else.

so my question becomes, where do you like to aim / place your cast hollow points ?

First of all I will not take a "Texas Heart Shot" on a deer. Subsequently that leaves broadside shots or raking shots both of which can also be angular based on the mountainous terrain I generally hunt. What I do is to envision a soccer ball that sits low between the deer's front legs against the brisket. I then aim to but the bullet through as close to the center of that soccer ball as I can. The soccer ball covers the heart and major viens and arteries leading into and out of it. It also is the thickest and densest part of the lungs meaning much more severe damage and bleeding. Being as either the entry or exit wound or both will be low in the chest cavity lots of blood will be let out rather quickly. Also most often at least one of the legs is broken. All this means the deer is going to go down and die as quick as possible. I use that shot on most all game animals except hogs. With them I try to put the bullet through the bottom half of the soccoer ball which is where their heart is.

I to have had too track down too many deer and other game animals much to far that were "shot behind the shoulder". Since switching to the above shot I've hadto do very little tracking. BTW; if you think deer can go a long way when shot behind the shoulder you should try elk some time.

I'm planning on using 50:50 ww/pb a 358156 HP and and h110 / 357 magnum, velocities @1400+ fps. HP pin is .125 tapered, and reaches to the top driving band.

50:50 alloy that I stirred up results in 6 BHN as air cooled and heat treats (450º for 30 min) to 16 BHN

It’s about six weeks until Deer season, which is a long wait, but not a lot of prep time

That sounds like a very good combination. I've shot several deer with just such a 358156 except I did not heat treat it. I wanted the soft ductile alloy of the 50/50 WW/Lead alloy. I was will ing to accept a little leading but found that not an issue as the revolver was cleaned with fewer than 6 shots being fired at a time. Any bullet that kills anything is going to cause "meat damage". What is excessive to some is acceptable to others. Quite frankly I'd rather lose a little meat than the whole deer if you get my drift. The deer I've killed with every handgun HP whether jacketed or cast have all exhibited "meat damage" but none of it was excessive in my opinion. Certainly none of it was anywhere near the damage caused by a 30-30, 308W or '06 let alone some of the god aweful magnums someuse to shoot little deer with. Anyways, give it a whorl and let us know how you did.

One other piece of advice; remember that a handgun is that, just a handgun so do notfor a second hesitate to shoot a seccond or even a third shot if possible. I long ago learned to cock the revolver with my left thumb using a two handed hold when coming down out of recoil, this has enabled me on many occasions to get a good second shot into the same area of the deer before they have dropped or moved off. Little addtional meat is damaged and it is damn good insurance. However, always make the first shot count because there may be no second shot;-)

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Not Larry, but with that boolit, at that velocity, I would be apt to place it a couple ribs back of the front shoulder. That boolit will grenade whether 6 or 16 bhn and take out both lungs. You will still get alot of bloodshot meat even there. Shot into the shoulder, your likely to get some hellacious damage and lost eats. Penetration may also be an issue with such a light boolit. I would expect a lost shoulder, about a 6" depth of tremendous damage, and just maybe a little piece of the shank falling out the far side. 357Max used the same boolit, out of a stubby, and dropped a deer DRT. Lost alot of bambi sammich's too. I much prefer a HP'd 180 grain for all around, shoot them from any angle, load. You got to expect the nose to blow off in the first 3-6 inches. What's left is all you got to give you an exit wound or complete the path to the vitals on a quartering shot.

The shoulder shot works great without a lot of bloodshot meat with a FN or even RN boolit at moderate speed. No need for rapid expansion. I'm talking the actual shoulder at the big joint, not the "elbow" so many call the shoulder.

[45 2.1]

I'm talking the actual shoulder at the big joint, not the "elbow" so many call the shoulder.

The deer we shoot don't have a big joint on the front leg above the "elbow". That would be the shoulder blade (so to speak) connected by muscle to the body. Just what part of the deer family are you shooting at?

[Leadforbrains]

The deer we shoot don't have a big joint on the front leg above the "elbow". That would be the shoulder blade (so to speak) connected by muscle to the body. Just what part of the deer family are you shooting at?

I always thought that there is a big joint that is part of the scapula. I like to hit this or the scapula if the deer is quartering slightly towards me as I can break that and get lungs and heart on a whitetail deer.
Yes it ruins the shoulder sometimes, but the deer never goes far.

I also need to add that when a deer is in a feeding posture that it appears to me that the joint sits much higher and more forward on the body cavity than it does in a full alert stance as shown in the picture

[45 2.1]

I always thought that there is a big joint that is part of the scapula. I like to hit this or the scapula if the deer is quartering slightly towards me as I can break that and get lungs and heart on a whitetail deer.
Yes it ruins the shoulder sometimes, but the deer never goes far.

I also need to add that when a deer is in a feeding posture that it appears to me that the joint sits much higher and more forward on the body cavity than it does in a full alert stance as shown in the picture


Having dressed, butchered and ate quite a few deer, i've never found one yet. Maybe Brets deer are different, which I doubt.

[Leadforbrains]

I can't speak to yours or Brets experience, but After dressing and boning out quite a few deer myself I can surely say my deer are all built pretty close to the same as the picture in my previous post.
:drinks:

[carpetman]

If your deer look like that picture, I'd say they are underfed.

[Leadforbrains]

If your deer look like that picture, I'd say they are underfed.

LOL[smilie=l:

Well you have heard of the before and after picture. Thats the after dinner picture.
Hey I wuz Hungry!

[TDC]

LOL[smilie=l:

Well you have heard of the before and after picture. Thats the after dinner picture.
Hey I wuz Hungry!

Come on,..... Let's let the truth be known! That deer wasn't underfed or eaten. It's obvious it was shot with a huge cavity HP..... Ya don't have to gut them, skin them or bone them out when you use big HPs, the boolit does it all for you and that's the way the deer looks after its been hit. <big smile>

Now...If only a cast HP boolit could be designed to package any remaining meat too......

Just kiddin' .... just kiddin'..... ;)

[kbstenberg]

A question from the new shooter to pistols an CB.
From what your saying. Ashot put in the triangular bone of the front shoulder or a little lower is not to be taken. But try a little lower say about an inch or two below the next joint down??? for broadside shots
I am glad this disc. is happening. My favorite shot has been directly on that large shoulder blade. They 99% of the time dont go anywhere but strait down.
This year my main gun will be MAG Hihec 503 or 503cramer if it gets done. I am a realist an a meat hunter so backup will be 7MM mag an J words. I give no apologies for being a meat hunter.

[Leadforbrains]

Come on,..... Let's let the truth be known! That deer wasn't underfed or eaten. It's obvious it was shot with a huge cavity HP..... Ya don't have to gut them, skin them or bone them out when you use big HPs, the boolit does it all for you and that's the way the deer looks after its been hit. <big smile>

Now...If only a cast HP boolit could be designed to package any remaining meat too......

Just kiddin' .... just kiddin'..... ;)

Well ya got me there. It's all true. That thar deer was shot with a Liersman devastatem Hollow point boolit that wuz hand casted from depleted Unobtanium.[smilie=l:
The picture is actually the off side exit wound

[Leadforbrains]

A question from the new shooter to pistols an CB.
From what your saying. Ashot put in the triangular bone of the front shoulder or a little lower is not to be taken. But try a little lower say about an inch or two below the next joint down??? for broadside shots
I am glad this disc. is happening. My favorite shot has been directly on that large shoulder blade. They 99% of the time dont go anywhere but strait down.
This year my main gun will be MAG Hihec 503 or 503cramer if it gets done. I am a realist an a meat hunter so backup will be 7MM mag an J words. I give no apologies for being a meat hunter.

If what ever your doing is killing your deer then you don't need to change. The big trangular bone is a good place to hit. Let your own experience be your own guide.

[GLynn41]

This has been an interesting thread- personally I am not going to try a HP boolit because I have to or because it will be better than the WLNGC I am doing it because I want to, because I can, because it is interesting--and I expect it to work ----- so far I have not lost a deer using a handgun-- I have let a number walk --including a couple of very nice bucks -- I will not claim to shoot with or out shoot anyone -- sadly I have lost two deer using a 54 and a50 cal MZ -- I lost one with a .358 win--- later she was found-- then I have missed twice with my .358 and twice at 25 steps broadside with a handgun with a 2x scope!! i think she was deafened by the muzzle blast!--btw I have missed more than I listed--- I keep good records and always do necropsy-- and not only on mine but my sons and my hunting buddy-- --any of the bullets we have discussed will work on deer-If .44man says that past a certain mv bullets behave different I accept what he says and will bear it mind if I ever get a cast bullet that fast-- i also accept what Lloyd or Larry say as i always willing to learn for any of the posters, that is why I am here--for an all around take what ever angle shot you have -- LBT style is my only choice--but i am sure others will work too this year I am willing to limit that some what so i can happily use my Buckshot baby 410459 HP in one of my .41s -- but the other one will still have LWNgc

[TDC]

There should probably be another component to this thread that hasn't been addressed yet. That component is self defense applications that a huge number of this sites membership are looking for in a hollow point boolit. Many of the qualities we all are looking for in a hunting boolit design don't work well for a self defense load.

We don't want deep penetration in an urban or household defense situation because of the danger it could cause to others. The huge cavity HP's are ideal for close range stopping power as well as preventing the worry about the boolit going through several walls, or for that matter, several houses.

Several of the people participating with a .502 "Crammer" group purchase I'm involved with plan to work hard at developing serious loads and HP applications for that boolit. The beauty is that the boolit is so large it will enable us to test 4 different hollow points with varying cavity sizes and wall thicknesses with the same boolit. We're all prepared with a variety of alloys and equipment to make a serious attempt to measure different velocities, penetration and expansion with all the differing HP combination's this boolit will permit. It will be interesting to see the conclusions each of us has after testing with the same configurations. I expect many existing findings will still be supported, but I expect a few myths worthy of more investigation will also be revealed for both hunting and defensive HP use.

I believe everybody .... everybody .... posting on this thread has provided sincere and valid personal experiences and observations. Every hunting situation is different and we can all expect a different boolit performance and result almost every time. Keep up all the great input and continuing curiosity. I think we've all gotta try to keep our minds open on this HP subject and listen to the opinions that make this website such a great place.....

Terry

[GLynn41]

At one time the so called FBI load was a Keith type /SWC all lead hp they for a time came out in nyclad- to reduce lead emissions-- other police agencies as well picked it up-- so this style bullet can be adapted to self defense-- one style of hp that years ago i found to do well was a cup point -- and for a while reverse hollow based wad cutters were used--none of this is new-- for example the British used a cup point in the 1800s --and there were stake splitter bullets for mz that had a nose with a wide flat point -- shades of LBT-- rediscovering is fun --a wise man once wrote there is nothing new under the sun -- and true it is

[TDC]

At one time the so called FBI load was a Keith type /SWC all lead hp they for a time came out in nyclad- to reduce lead emissions-- other police agencies as well picked it up-- so this style bullet can be adapted to self defense-- one style of hp that years ago i found to do well was a cup point -- and for a while reverse hollow based wad cutters were used--none of this is new-- for example the British used a cup point in the 1800s --and there were stake splitter bullets for mz that had a nose with a wide flat point -- shades of LBT-- rediscovering is fun --a wise man once wrote there is nothing new under the sun -- and true it is

What is new are the different calibers and components available today. In most LE cases one HP style was utilized and little experimentation was possible with differing HP cavity sizes and alloys like we can utilize casting our own today.

Who knows where our experimentation will lead, but as this thread confirms, there are many, many conclusions remaining that are totally different from another persons experiences.

"There is nothing new under the sun" .... except what is new to me... I'll probably never know as much as the sun does..... but I'll know a lot more about a .502 cast HP boolit than I do today...:drinks:

[Bret4207]

The deer we shoot don't have a big joint on the front leg above the "elbow". That would be the shoulder blade (so to speak) connected by muscle to the body. Just what part of the deer family are you shooting at?

I've run into a lot of people who refer to the joint at the lower bodyline as "the shoulder". To me it more closely approximates the "elbow". A shot placed at the larger joint below the scapula or for that matter any shot penetrating the scauplas tends to drop the deer right there as he can't move with broken shoulders. A higher shoulder shot can also wipe out the spine. Of course then we get into "neck" shots, which I've seen described as anything from C-1 down to the shoulder junction.

Anyway, the shoulder shot was found to work good back when the muzzle loaders first made their comeback in the mid 70's. People found a 45 round ball didn't always penetrate very well on our deer, but a deer with a broken shoulder generally was recovered. Of course our deer in the Adirondacks may be a bit bigger than some others. All I know is it was recommended by experienced ML hunters who believed in the round ball. That was back before the ML started using sabots and maxi balls and scopes and all that other non-traditional stuff. It works fine with boolits and bullets too, but with a HP you'll get more bloodshot meat.

I don't know what better term there is to describe a joint made up of connective tissue than "joint". My apologies if I got too technical.

[fredj338]

A question from the new shooter to pistols an CB.
From what your saying. Ashot put in the triangular bone of the front shoulder or a little lower is not to be taken. But try a little lower say about an inch or two below the next joint down??? for broadside shots
I am glad this disc. is happening. My favorite shot has been directly on that large shoulder blade. They 99% of the time dont go anywhere but strait down.
This year my main gun will be MAG Hihec 503 or 503cramer if it gets done. I am a realist an a meat hunter so backup will be 7MM mag an J words. I give no apologies for being a meat hunter.

In Africa, that is the most common shot, works 99.9% of the time & results in very short tracking. For some reason here in the states, everyone worries about meat damage but seem to accept lost game. In Africa, they eat the bloodshot meat & care little about it. I use the "shoulder" shot as well, works here on deer, hogs & elk equally well. Yes it does require a decent bullet. THin jacketed sp or thin lead HP may give you a wounded animal w/ some frustrating tracking.

[Larry Gibson]

The "shoulder shot" works well if the animal is standing broadside and and you are reletively level with the animal. The problem is , many shots are not picture perfect. If the animal is at a quartering angle towards you and you shoot for that same spot you will damage meat, hit a small amout of lung and have a very gut shot deer that most often can travel quite a distance. Conversely if the deer is quartering away and the same "shoulder shot" is taken the bullet can damage meat and not even hit the lungs going out through the upper chest area. That deer will go a long ways. Also consider if you are shooting up or down from the terrain or from a stand. The angle many times is such that little damage is actually done to vitals and the deer, once again, can go a long way. This is why I say to envision that soccer ball sitting low between the deers legs and put the bullet through the soccer ball regardless of the angle of the shot. If you do that, especially with a handgun, the deer will not go far.

Larry Gibson

[GLynn41]

TDC
"There is nothing new under the sun" .... except what is new to me... I'll probably never know as much as the sun does..... but I'll know a lot more about a .502 cast HP boolit than I do today... cool I like that

+! for Mr. Gibson-- I also try in those last seconds to visualize where it will end up coming out

[Bret4207]

Larry, no doubt the "soccer ball" idea works fine. No argument from me. The problem I keep seeing is guys trying for a "heart shot" and landing the bullet just ahead of the diaphragm, often rather high at that. A deer can go a long, long way with a high lung shot. Despite the meat loss I'd be more inclined to hope folks would worry a bit less about that and more about bringing the animal home.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good content and discussion in this thread, and plenty of food for thought too.

I haven't grassed nearly as many deer as some members have here--8 so far, 2 of those with handguns. I have yet to be required to track up a wounded deer, the longest run made to date was about 35 yards. I use a hold much like that mentioned by Bret, in which I visualize shooting through the animal to its far front shoulder and pass on shots from behind it where I can't "see" that soccer ball mentioned by Bret. Meat loss happens--FAR preferable to the total loss suffered when an animal can't be found after wounding.

[Greg]

I had an opportunity this past week to make a brief expansion test on some hollow point boolits cast of 50:50 (wheelweights/pure lead) alloy these were air cooled. BHN '7'

Test gun: Smith & Wesson M13, 4" barrel.

Test medium: gal milk jugs / tap water, with the lids screwed tight. A box of dry sawdust was used as a backer.

Lyman 358430 mould, converted to hollow point by our own Buck Shot; tapered
hp stem dia of .155, and a hp cavity depth of .460~ about half of the front driving band. As cast and lubed they weigh 181 grains.

Load: 357 Magnum brass, 14.0 grains Hercules 2400, tablet backer card wad, WSP primer. 1.670 oal. velocity, 1204 fps. This load leads the barrel in just a few shots.

I lined up 4 of the gal milk jugs and the box of sawdust at 30 yards and let fly…boolit hit in the lower 2" of the jug. First two jugs were split asunder, water pretty well instantly gone, third jug with only a 4" split and water pretty quickly leaving, forth jug a small hole coming and gone. Boolit found about 8" into dry sawdust. Recovered boolit was expanded to about .400; all but the dimple at the bottom of the hp was gone. Well a few small splatters were in the third jug, but not recovered. Weight of recovered boolit, 98 grains.


Lyman 358156 mould, converted to hollow point by our own Buck Shot; tapered
hp stem dia of .125, and a hp cavity depth of .270~ again about half of the front driving band. As cast and lubed they weigh 165½ grains with gas check.

Load: 357 Magnum brass, 14.0 grains Hercules 2400, Hornady gas check, WSP primer. 1.580 oal. velocity, 1166 fps.

For this part of the test I lined up 5 individual gal milk jugs and the box of dry sawdust at 30 yards and let fly… boolit punched dead center of the jug. First two jugs were violently thrown off the board, split asunder, water instantly gone, third jug nicely split with small secondary holes, forth jug a nice 2" split. Fifth jug only an entrance hole. The recovered boolit was expanded to about .430; all of the hp was gone. Three small splatters (28 grains worth) were in the third jug, and recovered. An 8 grain piece and the expanded boolit still with gas check, 120 grains, were in the fifth jug. Total weight of recovered boolit; 156 grains.

This was a fun test; the other guys at the range really liked it, too.

I have some 50:50 alloy heat treated to BHN '16' that I hope to get tested this week.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 for the right velocity for the mix... I HP my hunting boolits and agree with Larry, not that that means anything in the world of cast, I work my loads up and get the velocity I want with desired affect.....DRT or close

[leftiye]

Do you think it might be better to use a shallower hollow point cavity?