rifled musket question

[Razor]

Another occasion to expose my ignorance..

If;
a rifle has 'rifling'...
and a musket has a smoothbore...

Then;
What is a rifled musket ???
(other than an oxymoron..)

Razor
:castmine:

[dromia]

A musket with a rifled barrel.

Here's a link to some photos of one one the Front Stuffers forum, the one pictured there is an Enfield P53(?) Rifled Musket.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=27008

[Buckshot]

.................Rifled, because they were, and "Musket" because that's what they looked like.

...................Buckshot

[NickSS]

Back befor they had mini balls muskets were smooth bores and rifles were rifled but had shorter barrels. When they invented the minie ball they still made rifle length rifles and musket length rifles. The musket length ones had barrels about 40 inches long and the rifles had barrels around 32 inches long. Infantry were armed with rifled musket lenth weapons and skirmish companies were aremed with shorter rifles. At least that was the plan but it often did not workout as planned. Anyway, the longer muskets weighed about the same as the shorter rifles as they had thinner barrels. Both were fitted with bayonets as the bayonet was considered the weapon of choice to win battles with until during the Civil War they discovered that attacking infantry was shot to pieces before they got there to use the bayonet.

[floodgate]

To expand a bit and summarize Nick's post: Prior to about 1855 .54 caliber rifles (usually 33"+/- barrels) were issued to special purpose troops, and .69 caliber muskets (42 inch barrels) to line infantry. With the advent of the Minie" ball, the .58 caliber Model 1855 Rifle(d)-Musket with 40" barrel was issued as a compromise weapon to most troops, and continued through the Models 1861 and 1863 used throughout the Civil War. The name reflects the compromise.

floodgate

[Razor]

OK..
Thanks Guys...
Let's see if I got it straight....
To paraphrase:
a "rifle" (barrel) has rifling but is shorter than a musket..
a "musket" is smoothbore AND longer than a rifle.
So;
a "rifled MUSKET" is rifled, and longer than a rifle.
Then;
Is a musketoon : smoothbore.. but in a shorter "rifle " lenth ???

Razor
:castmine:

[floodgate]

Razor:

Correct; musketoons are normally of carbine length - in the range of 24 - 36". Often issued to artillery units, for whom the full length arm would be awkward and in the way. Much like the original intent of the .30 M1 Carbine of WWII. The terminology up to the mid-1850's is a little imprecise.

Fg

[Razor]

Thanks floodgate..

[Rimfire]

A rifled musket is a smoothbore that was rifled to update it. A lot of 1842 muskets were updated with rifling and rear sights added.
A rifle musket was rifled from the start such as the 1855, 1861 and 1863 springfields.
The Mississippi and Zouave were rifles.

[Razor]

I KNEW this was THE place to get THE answer...:-D
What ?? MUSKETS DIDN'T HAVE REAR SIGHTS ??
So, depending on the model year, and barrel length, we have : musket, rifled musket, rifle and musketoon..??
Which begs the next question...
Is there such a critter as a rifle musketoon ??
I imagine there are a few rifled musketoons but, how about them carbine length musket looking things that were rifled from the start ??

Man.. the more I learn, the more I realize how ignorant I am...

Razor
:castmine:

[floodgate]

Razor:

"Carbines", though the term was generally applied to any short-barrelled shoulder arm for cavalry use, rifled or not (most of them were not until the early breechloaders came in in the late 1840's: Sharps, Maynard, Burnside, etc.; and - most notorious of all - the breechloading .54 smoothbore Hall/North Model 1943's that were surplused off for $1.00 each, rifled, and sold back to the Government for $20.00 or so in the run-up to the Civil War). I have been privileged to own and shoot all of the above-mentioned, back when you could buy them for a few bucks each (1950's).

floodgate

[Razor]

I would love to be able to shoot an original Sharps, Maynard, Smith, Burnside et. al.
Why do you say "notorious" in reference to the Hall/North ??
Because of the fact of selling back to the Gov't at a huge profit or was there some design flaw ??
I think I'm having a relapse....
30 yrs ago I played with BP a little...
got out of it...
into Milsurps the last 15 yrs..
now.. really wanting a REAL Sharps.. (got an IAB)[smilie=b::groner:
Civil War era is lookin' real interesting right now...
Just got THE sexiest 6-gun... 1860 Army :-D (Pietta)

Razor
:castmine:

[floodgate]

Razor:

The Halls weren't bad for the US's first attempt at a breechloader, a flintlock, starting just after the War of 1812. Mine leaked gas for the first few shots, then sealed itself up and continued usable for maybe ten aimed rounds before coking up pretty solid - enough for a brisk battle, if needed. Hall manged operations at Harper's Ferry for a couple of decades or so, but Simeon North, as a private contractor, did a better job of production and interchangeability of parts, and made the improvements that led to the M1843, the last in the series that began with the M1819.

The "notorious" stems from the profiteering involved in buying 5000 obsolete smoothbores at surplus for $3.50 each (the "$1.00 each" was a guess from my increasingly shaky memory; this is from Flayderman), spending about a dollar rifling them, and selling them to General John C. Fremont in late 1861 - when the Union was desperate for firearms, any firearms! - at $22 each. The young J. P. Morgan had a hand in the process, and both his name and Fremont's were tarnished by the resulting investigation. I really don't see what the ******** was about; the Government got a moderately useful stop-gap weapon at a net cost of $18.50 without having to finance the startup of a private contractor, and got them back in hand, in substantially improved condition, within a matter of weeks.

Incidentally, the self-contained breechpiece of the Hall could be loaded, removed and pocketed as a brutal single-shot pistol, and was reportedly so used in a saloon brawl or two. A bit rough on the hand, though!

Yeah, the 1860 Army is indeed a seductively handsome piece; it was - as mentioned above - my first C&B revolver, bought in December, 1949 at Morton's, 40 Fulton St., NYC, for $25.00. (They were cheap and available then; a bit later, I got an 1863 New Model Remington in nice shape for $35 from another NYC shop - when I took it to the range, an "old timer" asked what I had paid for it; "Sheesh sonny, you don't never want to pay more than eight dollars for one a them old things.")

**SIGH**

floodgate

[Razor]

floodgate;


Yeah, the 1860 Army is indeed a seductively handsome piece; it was - as mentioned above - my first C&B revolver, bought in December, 1949 at Morton's, 40 Fulton St., NYC, for $25.00. (They were cheap and available then; a bit later, I got an 1863 New Model Remington in nice shape for $35 from another NYC shop - when I took it to the range, an "old timer" asked what I had paid for it; "Sheesh sonny, you don't never want to pay more than eight dollars for one a them old things.")

I didn't think the Italian copies were being made back then...And, of course, you can't possibly be referring to ORIGINAL 1860's selling for those prices...!!:shock:

Oh LORD !!! what I wouldn't give for a time machine !!!

I do remember the $10 Argentines and the $20 '03's from the mid '60's...

Razor
:castmine:

[floodgate]

Razor:

Yes, I AM referring to originals! I'm just thankful that I started when I did. If any of you want to see how things were back then, get a copy of the Robert Abels 1951 2-volume catalog of firearms and edged weapons for sale, $13.95 from <www.cornellpubs.com>. I spent a lot of time and $$$ (for the time; remember inflation: about 4X since 1950) there. Oh the hogshead barrels stuffed with Trapdoors and CW Rifle-Muskets, muzzle-down; all you could carry off at $15 each!

Floodgate

[StrawHat]

floodgate,

I remember buying and using the originals also.

Still have a Burnside and Spencer and a Ballard.

I used a Remington revolver for target work. An oldtimer fixed it up for me. Reamed the chambers to accept .452 jacketed SWCs, fitted a S&W rear sight, and a dovetailed front sight. Someone else has that one now. It sure could shoot.

Back then, the italians had only just started making repros and a lot of it was junk.
And the variety was pretty poor too. As I recall the only offerings were the Yank and Reb versions of the 1851 and maybe the Remington revolver. The Zouave was the only long gun for quite a while.

It was cheaper to buy an original, most places that had then just wanted to get rid of them and priced them at what the market could bear.