the best group size for patched round balls

[bluegrouse]

Hi,

I am a new black powder shooter and have recently acquired a .50 1x60'' twist barrel for my Lyman Great Plains rifle. The best five shoot 100 yards groups that I am able to produce are 4''. I have tried both Hornady and Speer RB in .490 and .495 diameters with several patch thicknesses. I have tried using Goex ffg and fffg but saw no difference in group size between the two. I am not unhappy with the results and will continue to experiment but was wondering if others would care to share their best patched round ball groups and the load combination used.

Thanks

[curator]

If you are getting 4" groups at 100 yards with store-bought round balls and open sights, you should be very happy. The Great Plains rifles are capable of better accuracy than this but not by much without better sights. You might contact Dutch Schoultz at:www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com to learn how to squease every last bit of potential accuracy from your muzzle loading rifle.

[waksupi]

The Mark 1 eyeball is usually the general culprit for no better groups at 100 yards. Back when I could see, I had a few rifles that would do cloverleafs with round ball at 100. Now, the target is just kind of a blur down there..... There is a lot more to bench rest shooting than most realize. It could also be your technique.

[beardog454]

My 54 gpr shoots one ragged hole at 50 but i have upgraded to target sights and played around with alot of different patch and powder combinations. 60 grains of fffg and .0010 patches and hornady balls work great. They are very accurate guns in my experience

[snoopy]

4in at 100yds w/ open sights, if you can repeat that time and time again, thats pretty good IMHO.

[kens]

as a young ladd with good eyes, and iron sights, I could shoot cloverleaf at 50 yards. But at 100 yards, you need better sights to tighten up the groups.
At 100yards, you start getting into windage with round balls also, you gonna need wind flags, dope the wind, etc, etc.

[crossxsticks]

i got one just like that with a lyman peep that is best i could ever get it to do too, a 10 ring gun at 25 and 50 but 4, 5 & 6" groups at 100 yd . casting .490 balls and sorting them by weight to and i just hate the butt plate on it .
I went as far as to remove back sight and stuck a 4 power pistol scope on it one time and didnt help any still same group at 100 yds thaught bout lappin the barrel but never did

[10 ga]

what curator, waksupi and snoopy said!

For better "groups" at 100 you probably need better sights, better technique and better coaching! consistent 4" at 100 with coarse open sights and no coaching is pretty darn good. If you are hunting deer that is minute of deer and you will have some tracking and some DRT, if shooting competition you have a long way to go. Hang out here, old guys know stuff! 10 ga

[OverMax]

Sounds as though you're bench resting the Lyman. If so. You should be able to do close to a 3" group all day long with factory barrel sights and its proper powder charge along with barrel swabbing occasionally. Perhaps a chance of patch lube is warranted. For those long shooting secessions try this instead: Lehigh Valley Patch Lubricant.
BTW: Here's a Tip. Something I do time & time again with all my firearms : Hang a 2 ft piece of ribbon or brightly colored 1" plastic tape in the open air directly below your target. Watch it close. I'll bet those groupings will close some for yaw.

Long ago I found Gorex 2-FFg more suitable in my Hawkin under P-ball. (until recently that is)
Lyman rifles are typically pretty darn accurate in the right hands. But wanting really dependable time after time. Have Waksupi make you a rifle. Call it your Christmas Birthday Fathers Day present owed.

[Southron]

Well, I consider any rifle that comes "out of the box" from the factory needs to be accurized.

I start with a Glass Bedding job that includes Glass Bedding not only the barrel, but the breech and even the Tang. You would be surprised how many rifles come from the factory with "too generous" inletting in the breech area. The stocks are cut like this at the factory so all the parts, lock, stock and barrel can be quickly assembled by low paid workers without and effort on their part.

Next is a good "Lock Job." If nothing else I polish all the INTERIOR SURFACES of the lock (especially the parts that rub together) to a "Mirror Bright." The rule is when you can see your face in the backside of the lock plate you know you have done a good job.

Use progressively finer grades of Emery Paper, available at your local hardware store.

When your interior lock parts are highly polished metal, friction is reduced and your "LOCK TIME" decreases, sometimes dramatically. Fast lock times are conductive to good accuracy.

Do you weigh your round balls?

Commercially swaged round balls should weigh all the same, but I would weigh a box, one ball at a time to find the balls that weighed the EXACT amount. Those would be my "Match Balls" and everything else my "Practice Balls."

Do you weigh your powder charges?

Justg keep in mind that EVERY MUZZLOLOADER IS AN INDIVIDUAL. Try shooting 5 round groups with powder charges varying as much as two grain each. Chances are you will find one particular powder charge that will give you the tightest groups. It might be something as minor as one grain of powder, one way or the other.

GOOD LUCK!!!

[bluegrouse]

Thanks for the replies. I was trying to find out what kind of groups are others getting and what is possible with the patched round ball. And, yes, I am using sandbags and shooting from a prone position. I am also using a wind flag to watch for the wind speed and direction. Have to say that I was surprised by how much wind deflection I was experiencing with the patched round ball.

[Omnivore]

You didn't mention trying different powder charges, and has was said, that can make a real difference.

I've also found that the condition of the bore makes a rather large difference. A cold clean bore shot, as used in hunting, will be different from a fouled bore shot. I've noticed several inches difference right there at 100, so it behooves one to pay attention to that.

There are a LOT of shooters who cannot do better than about 4" at 100, no matter the rifle. To get significantly better, the whole entire system must be considered, front to back, top to bottom, including the shooter. A peep rear sight can be a HUGE improvement, depending on your eyes. If your eyes (or "eye") aren't terrific, then a peep sight will always help.

The first time I took out my Colt AR-15 Match HBAR I couldn't do better than 4" at 100, so there.

Ammo can make ALL the difference, and in a muzzle loader there are a LOT of possible variables in a load.

You know your barrel twist for sure? They make both short and long twists for that rifle.

[bluegrouse]

I have both a fast .54 and a slow twist .50 barrels for that rifle. I am referring here to the 1x60'' twist .50 barrel results. I have tried different amounts of powder ranging from 70-90 grains. Have not tried any loads using less than 70 grains since I do intend to hunt with this load. Since I am primarily interested in cold bore results (hunting concerns) I clean the barrel between each shot by pushing through it a windex moistened patch followed by two dry patches. I have tried using Hoppe's #9 Plus and a home made mixture of lard and bee wax for the patch lube.
I have noticed the loose fit between the stock and the tang and do believe that the rifle would benefit from bedding the tang but the issue with that is that the resulting stock would not accept different tang matched to the replacement barrel (tried switching the tangs and noticed that they are not interchangeable between different barrels).

As mentioned above, I was mostly wanting to get some feedback as to what kind of groups others are getting with RB in order to get some idea of the possibilities.

Thanks

[fouronesix]

Yes, the hooked breech to tang usually isn't a perfect fit even when mixing and matching identical models. You can sometimes do some hand fitting (with a file and lamp black or felt tip marker) and maybe some peening so the surfaces mate correctly. Once that is done you can temporarily glue the barrel to the tang and bed the whole unit. Once cured, remove the barrel with tang and simply break the glue bond and clean the mating surfaces.

l've shot and owned a whole bunch of different slow twist PRB rifles and the short answer to the potential accuracy question is: it depends. Terrible answer I know but much truth in it. Also as has been posted, sight resolution, is many times the weak link. But, given good rest, good gun, good load, good shooting technique and good conditions…. anything about 4" or less @ 100yds with regular open sights is pretty good. IMO

[snoopy]

Varying powder charges is a definite, but I will never weigh a BP charge ,no matter how bad I want a trophy. Just my opinion, but I think there are better ways to spend my time. At least on a prb load.

[waksupi]

Varying powder charges is a definite, but I will never weigh a BP charge ,no matter how bad I want a trophy. Just my opinion, but I think there are better ways to spend my time. At least on a prb load.


I've never weighed powder charges for ML's when hunting the most accurate load, but I sure have weighed the balls for best results!

[OverMax]

My Tip: Copy & paste the entire Thread to Word in your PC. Read each members Threaded cure. Then number (#) those Threaded cures >easiest to the hardest to preform.
I'll bet you'll soon discover the reason why your rifle shoots its disappointing grouping and fix it too. This is what I would do in your situation.

[Hanshi]

At 100 yards the best groups I've ever got were ave 4" (3.75" to 4.25"). This was with three different rifles/calibers. With those primitive sights I simply can't do any better. Sometimes I may get 2 or possibly 3 in a rough cloverleaf or figure 8. Always the other 2 or 3 shots will open it all up. My eyes aren't nearly as good as they were 30 years ago or even 20 years ago. I'm happy to accept a 4" group at 100 yards.

[bigted]

so here is a thought ... if you are playing with a new barrel from Lyman then do these things FIRST thing before shooting for groups;

1- collect your patch's and examine them for ... cutting, burnt thru, torn, general condition and if ripped or torn then examine the muzzle of the rifle and ensure it has a very smooth and good crown that is not cutting your patch's before they even get to the powder.

2- shoot that barrel 100 times with no particular group size looked for ... just shoot to be shooting until the first 100 shots have been shot thru your rifle barrel ...

now you are ready for some accuracy tests. if after the 100 shots ... you can "short start" a patched ball and recover it from the barrel without shooting to examine the patch and ensure there is no tearing or ripping done to it at the muzzle then this is the first step

that 100 first shots are to smooth out the factory rifling cuts. there are many ways to do this but shooting will do a couple things ... each shot will continue the polishing job on the factory cuts inside the barrel and secondly you will seat your lock parts in a constructive way ... thirdly ... you will be engaged with your rifle like no other way possible. every yank of the trigger gets more and more intimate with your shooting style and endears you to your rifle in such a way that you will begin to hear it talk to you and hear what it wants to be fed for best results.

NOW you are ready to begin your courtship with your rifle. to begin to understand what its needs are and to be able to do everything the exact same way shot after shot. ... THEN the accuracy will appear as well as the smile on your yapper.

WHEWWWWWWW !!!