Yay, it worked

[kawalekm]

I"ve been talking about my SportFlite dies for making 22 bullets, and also about my idea of using 40S&W cases for .44 jackets. Well, I finally got around to taking some pics of my work. Here are .22 bullets made from SportFlite dies.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Swaged22bullet.jpg
The right hand bullet is a store-bought Sierra softpoint.

I did the same thing to make a .44 MAG bullet.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/Swaged44bullet.jpg
I took a 40S&W case (first on left) and added a 40 caliber cast lead bullet as the core (not shown) The swaged bullet is second from the left. The third shows the depth of the hollow point, and the right hand bullet is a store-bought Sierra 240 grain hollowpoint.

The .22 bullet is .224" in diameter and weighs 55 grains. The .44MAG bullet is .429" in diameter and weighs 245 grains. I heated the 40S&W cases red-hot on the stove before making jackets. I wished I had polished them after annealing so they'd be prettier. I'll add a crimping grove to the bullets, then I'll start working up some test loads. After that, I'll be conducting real-world testing during deer season.
Michael

[georgeld]

By damn those look GOOD man!
Congrats!
Now then, let's see the results of how they shoot.

What did you use for cores? Make 'em? buy 'em? etc.
You're off to the range now mate. Go for it!!

Am surprised the extraction groove closed up though.
Any change's to the case other than just swaging them?

[pumpguy]

This looks like fun. Is it just the camera angle or is the extraction groove shorter after swaging? Any problem with the spent primers in the cases after you anneal them?

[Southern Son]

Mick,
Mate, those .44 bullets look GOOD, how about some tests. How accurate can you get them to shoot? A couple of inches at 50 yards would be good for a .44 carbine. How do they hold together on impact? Some tests into some type of media (clay, wet newspapers, one of those bullet tubes) would be very interesting. I think that if they hold together at about 1800fps, they would be absolutly deadly on feral pigs. Don't kick yourself about not polishing them up, I think that most users of this forum are much more interested in performance, not pretty. I reckon then look real flash just is. How about showing more detail of the dies used to make the .44s?

Ron.

[chrisx1]

Great job on these!!!

Where did you get the dies for the .429/44 Mag?

[Bent Ramrod]

Tet me add my congratulations on those .44 bullets. I wouldn't have thought a case that heavy could be swaged that well, even after annealing. You have definitely advanced the technology there!

[pumpguy]

I would be interested in the process as well. I have about a bajillion 40 S&W cases destined for the recycler. I would really like to make some of these for my .444.

[kawalekm]

Here's a pic of my swaging setup. The orange press on the left is a CH Swagomatic that I am using to make .357 halfjacket bullets. The press on the right is a RCBS rockchucker with the CH101 bullet swaging die mounted.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/swagingstation.jpg
The CH 101 dies to make the bullets can be found at
www.ch4D.com
I used a regular rockchucker press with the standard slotted ram. The SportFlite .22 die set though comes with its own prorietary threaded ram that holds the die set.

First I separated all my adhesive "stick-on type wheelweights, assuming they were made of soft lead, and melted those down. I used a Lyman 401638 mold to cast 175 grain cores of pure lead that would just fit into cases.

Next I annealed the 40S&W cases on the kitchen stove. I heated them red hot then let them air cool back to room temperature. The annealed cases are soft enough that the case mouths can be crushed shut with my fingertips. After cooling, I flaired the case mouths with a regular 40 flair die and stuck the cast cores into their mouths.

I lubed each case with anhydrous lanolin, then ran them up into the core seating die. That shoved the cast cores down to the bottom of the case. Next I ran each jacketed core through the bullet forming die. I has a hollowpointing stem, but I could replace it with a softpoint stem if desired.

I also have a CH canneluring tool, so I can put a crimping grove on each bullet. I'll start ballistic testing later in the spring when weather gets dry and comfortable for shooting.
Stay tuned,
Michael

[georgeld]

Mike:
Try crimping the bullet just the way they are without putting a groove on the case.
Soft as they are, they should mash right in. Just make sure the mouth's don't spring back out and you'll have it just right.

Have you run them thru a bullet sizer die for dia?? OR are they just right the way they are?

Sure look good to me!

Thanks for sharing.

[Adam10mm]

That is kick ass!

I keep going back and forth between getting into swaging. I got a bunch of 22cal jackets I bought. Hard to swallow the $400 for a set of bullet making dies. I'll probably start off with the CH4D pistol dies. Price is right. I wish I shot 44. I don't have 40S&W around but could use worn out 10mm brass instead. Might be able to get up to 300gr or so with them.

[Southern Son]

that is as flash as a rat with a gold tooth. You will have to post the balistic results, with pictures. I am very interested in this as I have access to quite a few .40S&W fired cases, all fire in a glock.

Ron.

[pumpguy]

Now you went and got me all hot and bothered!!! The 44s take two dies? I must have missed the core seating die at the link you provided. I'll have to take another look.

[Adam10mm]

Do you think you could use some 10mm cases for jackets, seeing how you used 40S&W for those? Might get a good 275-300gr.

I have several hundred I was going to turn in to the scrapper. Mostly PMC headstamp. Still in decent shape but I have several thousand better 10mm brass for shooting.

[Adam10mm]

Here's a pic of my swaging setup. The orange press on the left is a CH Swagomatic that I am using to make .357 halfjacket bullets. The press on the right is a RCBS rockchucker with the CH101 bullet swaging die mounted.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/swagingstation.jpg

I'm trying to set up my CH4D swage dies on my RC press. It says to screw the core seater die in until ¼" of the core seating punch is in the die. If I do that I can't see the mouth of the die. Is this right or should I screw the die in until I can see the mouth of the die? I'm used to being about to see the mouth of the dies for reloading.

[Rat-Man]

Freakshow,

I don't have this set but judging from the looks of these dies you would have some leeway in the body position.

It would depend on how far up you can adjust the top punch that the jacket stops against.

I'm pretty sure that the ram will have to go to it's full extension, and the weight adjusted by raising or lowering the top punch.

This is just my observation and may be of no value to you trying to get setup.

Rat-Man

[Adam10mm]

Thanks. I did it the way the directions said to. They said the punch has to go in the die about a ¼ inch so I marked it with a Sharpie marker and looked underneath the die and screwed it in until I couldn't see the line. Then set the lock ring. Seems to work. I'm posting a review right now.

[kawalekm]

I'm trying to set up my CH4D swage dies on my RC press. It says to screw the core seater die in until ¼" of the core seating punch is in the die. If I do that I can't see the mouth of the die. Is this right or should I screw the die in until I can see the mouth of the die? I'm used to being about to see the mouth of the dies for reloading.

Yes, that part was a little frustrating. I ended up doing it by feel myself. Be very clearful when you're running the core-seating punch up into the die. The rather fragile lip of the core punch can catch the outer circumfernce of the die hole, and you'll damage to punch. Feed it in slowly with your fingers on the punch/core/jacket and wiggle if you feel sudden resistance.

I think the best initial adjustment is to have the die body screwed OUT too far. Then as you repeatedly run the core/jacket into the die, you gradually screw it in (down) till the core seats. One thing I found using 40S&W cases as a jacket is that the "jacket" is longer than the core, so you start to compress the jacket shorter before you fully swage the core. I tried a few bullets where I completely skipped the core-seating set. I merely dropped the 40 bullet into the case-mouth, ran it up into the bullet swage die, and an identical bullet popped out on the down-stroke. I've yet to head out to the range, so I can't say which production scheme makes a more accurate bullet.
Michael

[bohica2xo]

Wow. Just freaking WOW.

I have been around the gun business for 40 years, and this one simply never occured to me.

Thanks! I am always kicking the 40 S&W brass out of my way at the range. Seems the 40 & 9mm shooters just "blow & go" around here most of the time.

Now I can shoot my M29 a LOT more! I picked up about 500 cases yesterday after reading this thread. They are headed for the annealing oven in about an hour...

One caution. If you anneal a batch of brass dead soft end-to-end, be SURE you turn it all into bullets. If one of those soft cases gets loaded (especially in a 40!) it will really mess up a pistol.

Thanks again for a great idea!

B.

[Scrounger]

Another possible use for this process: If/or/when lead becomes too expensive or illegal to use for bullets, this process using zinc or some other obtainable metal would allow us to make our own "jacketed" bullets.

I have an interest in this process, to make .358 bullets. Hollow point would be nice. Do you suppose you could use 9mm Luger cases or 9X18 Makarov cases to get two different bullet weights? If 9mm cases won't swage down easily enough, I suppose you could use .32 ACP or something but they are a lot harder to find.

[Adam10mm]

I have several hundred 10mm cases you guys can have if you want. Pretty sure they are mostly PMC heads.

I just tried that where you put the core on the case and ran it in the swage die. Pretty nifty. I had exactly 2 9mm boolits that were heavier than the cores I cast. Almost came to the top of the jacket.

I got a 9mm case trimmer coming on the way. I'm going to shorten it until the case is the proper jacket length. My problem is that the jacket is too long for my core.

[Adam10mm]

Scrounger, 9mm cases swage easily. I had them on the stove for a half hour and they are easy to swage in the dies. I'm just using a RC press.

I'm going to get clarification on what the ATF considers to be "fully jacketed" as it pertains to the ban on manufacturing armor piercing ammunition for handguns. Ammunition is defined as bullets too, that's already covered.

But if a guy took a 90gr core with a 9mm case weighing 60gr, the jacket is more than 25% of the total bullet weight and this violates the USC.

[Scrounger]

How about a .380 case? I'd like to end up with a bullet of about 130 grains.

[yeahbub]

kawalekn, where did you find those Sport Flite dies? I've been looking for a set, but don't know where to go. They seemed the best for the money. . . .

[Adam10mm]

I tried a .380 case and it was just a tid bit too long still. I have a handful of .380 cases coming my way from a guy on Glockpost.com. When they get here I'll try them out some more. I only had one case from my cartridge collection that I used.:)

I'm trying to make a 110-115gr bullet and then I want to go the other way with a 210-215gr bullet.

[Rat-Man]

kawalekn, where did you find those Sport Flite dies? I've been looking for a set, but don't know where to go. They seemed the best for the money. . . .

That's the set that I have. It seems the guy died a few years ago and the company was just him, so they are out of business.

Rat-Man

[kawalekm]

Well, the truth is that I bought the SportFlite dies back in 1994 when we first bought our house. I stuck them up on the shelf for years because there were just so many other projects to do. I bought a set of CH .357 dies also. They were only 56$ back then.

I had them in the back of my mind till I found this website. Let's say that all you guys inspired me to dust of the boxes and get to work on it. I am just offended by the cost of jackets now, and that led me to the cartridge case idea. At the same time I dug out the SportFlite dies and started making the .22 bullets also. I've tried contacting SportFlite, but yes, it does look like they're out of business. Another member of this board mentioned Larry Blackmon, as if he had acquired the SportFlite tooling and is continuing to produce it under another name. I'm in the process of contacting Larry now to find out if that's true. I'll get back to you on that point later.

I also want to try using the 380 cases as jackets. Considering just how pathetic the 380 Auto is, I'm thinking that using the case to make a .357 bullet is more worthwhile than making a 380 round! Now, how to draw a case down to .357 dimensions?

Here's another brain-storm I just came up with. A .223 case is .378" at the base, and .354" just before the shoulder starts, with a gentle taper between the two. I'm thinking I could drive a 380 case (red-hot annealed) into the .223 sizing die to draw it down to .354". I could then use the .354 inch "jacket" to make a .357 bullet. I invision two ways of doing this. I could just buy a used .223 die purchased at a gun show, and cut it off right where the shoulder begins, and drive the case straight through the bore of the die. Alternatively I could use my intact die and just tap the drawn case back out with a wooden mallet. Comments please!
Michael

[bohica2xo]

kawalekm:

Way ahead of you there. I just finished a pair of drawing dies. One to turn 9mm / 380 brass into .355 jackets, the other to draw 40S&W down to .398

It does not take a lot of force to do this to an annealed case.

If you have .357 swaging equipment, I could send you a few "jackets" to play with...

I plan on making some bullets for my 358 winchester, should be interesting. The 9mm dies will also draw down 223 brass if you cut it off first.

Right now the 40's come out about .850 long after drawing so some trimming might be in order before forming into pistol bullets. I may try to pull the 40's down another step for 35 cal rifle bullets.

There is always some scrap 223 & 9mm brass out there (berdan primed, dinged etc.) so I think making jackets out of it is better than tossing it.

B.

[georgeld]

How about some core dia dimensions on these things now?

Be nice to know soon as I'm about to order some drill bushings for the wire making tooling I'm into.
Thank you,

[kawalekm]

Hi B.
Wish I had access to a lathe. All I've got myself is a drillpress. So, I can't make my own dies from scratch. And, I'm not keen on paying money to anyone else for something I want to do myself. The sizing die scheme was the best idea I could come up with limited resources. I'm leaning towards buying a cheapo Lee sizing die and just cutting off the top of the die where the shoulder starts. When you made your draw die for .355", what was the final dimension at the tightest section? Was it .355 inside diameter, or was it smaller? At this point my attitude is "Just Do It"!

George
I use .175" lead wire to make my .22 cores. Wish I had a core mold that small. I use a .315" core mold to make .357 cores. I am using 40 caliber bullets as my .44 cores.

Somewhere else on this board someone showed a neat project where they flipped over an old bullet mold, drilled .175" ish cavities in-between the bullets from the bottom up, and then added a second spruce cutoff plate on the bottom of the mold. That might be something I'm willing to try someday with an old mold.
Michael

[bohica2xo]

George:

A .3125 core should work fine in the reworked 9mm brass. The 40's could use larger cores - or just mash longer .3125's

Michael:

The brass forms up within a couple of tenths of the hole diameter. If you want to get .355 with annealed brass, just go with .355 If you want to run cases as is, you will need about .3546 to get .355 diameter "jackets".

Sizing dies are hard. A seating die might be a better choice if you plan to work on the hole diameter - especially if you have limited tooling. You need a land that is at least 1/2 D in length for proper size control, and 1 D is better. Rather than cutting the die off, you should open up the neck to .355 diameter. This would be easier with a .223 seater. Drill undersize & ream in the drillpress. If you don't have a .355 reamer, you could drill with an "S" letter drill & hone / polish up to .355 ID . You will need a punch that is about .300 to fit inside of the case. You push them through like any jacket resizing operation.

I am a tool & die maker by trade, and I am not fond of modifying already heat treated sizing dies. Some are only hard on the surface, others are hard all the way through - always a bag of snakes. I just made a simple die & punch to try this out. I could make a run of them if there was an interest.

B.

[kawalekm]

HI B
That is a really great idea! Yes, drilling out the end of the die should be much easier that chopping it off. Thanks! I have some drill bits that large, and I could lap it out to the final diameter. I thought I'd try this with a cheapo Lee "really great buy" set. If it works, great. If it doesn't, well, it's only a 12$ mistake.

I'll have to look through my reloading manuals to check what other cartridges would make good "draw dies". Once I get started I'll take lots of pics to keep everyone apprized of my progress.
Michael

[georgeld]

Guess I should have explained what I was wanting to do.
Am expecting to get the lead swage die body back next week along with a foot of all thread to fit the bore: 1 1/4" before threading. Am not sure what they'll come up with for OD of the threads. For sure larger than this. maybe 1 5/16", or 1 3/8", won't know yet.

But, intend to cut 1 1/2" piece's off the all thread, drill them for wire making. Thats the size's I was wanting to know. What size hole's I should drill in these "dies". Which will be just short pcs of all thread.

Thinking I'll try to just drill the holes and polish them out and see if the lead wire will squirt out. Rather than buy drill bushings that are not the right size's desired for $7-12 each. Would a lot rather have the bushings of course, but, lackabucks for now.

Mike: for sizing brass for jackets. Get Lee's bullet sizing dies, you can order exact sizes. am not sure if they'd charge extra for that, or if they've got a full selection besides' standards.

MSC lists drill bushings, but, not the exact size's I want. Wholesale Tools don't list them at all. Who lists exact bore sizes by .thousandths?????

Thank you,

[bohica2xo]

George:

You do not need a precision bushing for what you are doing. Just drill undersize & ream to size for a good finish.

A 5/16 hole should be good for 35 cal bullets. You can use a taper reamer to reduce the length of the finish diameter land. Taper & chamfer on the input side will make things a bit easier.

Lead is not abrasive, and you can run a lot of it through a mild steel die before you will see any problems wit the die. Your threaded dies will be just fine as is.

Most bushing companies have minimum orders. McMaster-Carr will get you a single bushing of any size, but you need to order it on the phone.

B.

[georgeld]

Thanks for the info.

I know from making neck sizing bushings the real trick is in the polishing of the bore's.
If not "good enough" they'll sure crush a case in a hurry. Once polished nicely they'l slip right thru and do a nice job of it too.

Made a set from .171" to half inch by .010-.020", about ten of them in all. Fit the body of Lee's bushing type dies. This one came as the mouth belling die for about ten bucks. Most any die will work as long as it takes slip in bushings. These are: .700"x 1.250". Made a set of guide rings for top and bottom spacers too so it will fill up the body and be snug once the cap is screwed on. Works like a charm necking 5.7's down to .17 cal.

Just for something to do one night. Ran an '06 case down to about half way and .224" OD til I got careless with the lube and crushed it. Amazing what can be done with brass with lube and small steps.

[bohica2xo]

Well there is your answer George. Bore a .500 through hole in your end plug, then bore a .700 diameter 1.250 deep. Use your already finished bushings.

B.