Lee Factory Crimp Die for my 30-30?

[Elbow]

I shoot a Model 94 Winchester 30-30 with 22 graims IMR 4198 and a Lee flat point gas checked bullet. Sometimes the bullets fall into the shell, should I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? Anyone use one with Cast?

[dsa]

The LFCD can swage a lead bullet and cause all kinds of accuracy issues and sometimes leading. I went back to a standard Dillon crimp die on my 650.

[jmort]

No, this is misinformation. The rifle FCDs are collet style. No swaging.

[Jupiter7]

I shoot a Model 94 Winchester 30-30 with 22 graims IMR 4198 and a Lee flat point gas checked bullet. Sometimes the bullets fall into the shell, should I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? Anyone use one with Cast?

No. Crimp is not a replacement for proper neck tension. Something is amiss with your sizing operation. For best results I recommend using a stepped expander like the lyman M die. 30-30 is pretty thin brass in the grand scheme of rifle brass and doesn't play nice with being overworked, especially the case mouth. YES, the lee rifle FCD is an excellent crimp die and is easier on case necks. I rarely put more than a slight taper with the FCD and cast.

[DrCaveman]

If they are falling into the shell, you have one (or more) of three problems

1. Sizing die isnt sizing the brass properly (read: small enough)
2. Expander die is enlarging brass too much
3. Boolits are too small

I love the lee FCD with my 30-30 loads, but you bet your *** they are being seated against a lot of resistance prior to the FCD crimp! The FCD mostly smoothes out the belling that occurred during the case expansion prior to seating, with a little bit of extra snug.

As jupiter says, case neck tension is needed, and is not replaceable by crimp. You need to look at your setup and see where the dimensions are wrong.

I use both the lyman m-die and the lee universal expander...when set right with a .311" slug for my marlin 336, both dies give pretty solid neck tension. I also use pretty hard alloy so there isnt any boolit crushing going on during seating.

Jmort is totally right, the problems are from handgun FCDs. At least in my experience

[MT Chambers]

You need a proper FL size die, which should give good case neck tension, seat bullets with a seating die, then crimp with the same die as a sep. step, no other gimmicky dies needed

[MediumCore358]

I agree with the other posts. Set your dies per instruction, full length resize, check your bullet diameter, taper crimp slightly or roll crimp with crimp groove. How many times have you used your brass?

[jmort]

Anything in a tube magazine should have a good crimp and the Lee FCD collet die is an excellent choice.

[EDK]

Have you checked case lengths? Could dies have been set up with long cases rather than short? 30/30 trim length dimensions are a bit weird compared to factory brass. I started trimming all my bottle neck rifle brass before loading since I only buy once fired brass.

I've never used any factory ammo in .223, .308 or 30/30 in almost 50 years of reloading (and very little in pistol calibers or 45/70 and 50/90.)

[44man]

Good advice. I use .311" boolits and I also neck turn 30-30 brass to eliminate run out. There is no problem with tension and a gentle roll crimp holds them.
I would be looking into the dies and expander.
I made a flare tool from an old RCBS seat die. I don't like "M" dies as they can remove too much tension.

[lotech]

MT Chambers gave best advice with the fewest words. And when you crimp, use just enough to prevent bullet movement and no more.

[leebuilder]

Plus one on all of the above, are you using GCs? could be a size issue. It happened to me the GCs had a bit of spring and were a bit bigger than the boolit after sizeing and crimping. Once i seated the boolit there was no neck tension on the lead part of the boolit and the GC was below the neck. Ended up loading singles and increaseing the COL.
Perfect neck tension is important
You must crimp with tube mags

be well

[bedbugbilly]

44man - not being argumentative . . . just curious about your comment as to the M dies removing too much neck tension. I use one for loading cast in 8mm and am getting set up for 30-30 - I have "M dies" for both. If the expander pug on the M die is the correct size for your cast boolit, how does it remove too much neck tension? Does it not (if correct size) expand the neck to the correct dimension of your boolit and give a little flare to act as a "shoe horn" so to speak?

Example -on my 8mm, my plug is .323 and I'm loading three different cast boolit designs/weights. Some cast right at .323, some .3235 to .324 or so. I'm just backing out my FLdie and neck sizing. One of the boolits I can gently seat by hand and then I put a very mild crimp on the edge of the neck where the crimp groove of the boolit is with my Lyman 310 neck sizing die - works great.

I'm guessing it's the same with 30-30 as far as the M die goes. If the expander plug of the M die is matched to the boolit to create neck tension - how does it remove too much?

Again . . not being argumentative . . . you obviously have experienced a problem with it and I'm just curious as to what it was? I'll also add that all I load is "cast" so maybe I'm missing something as far as loading commercial bullets?

Thanks.

OP - not trying to steal the thread . . I have a Lee crimp for my 8mm but have never needed it (so far). Different cartridge than the 30-30 but same issues could apply.

[44man]

44man - not being argumentative . . . just curious about your comment as to the M dies removing too much neck tension. I use one for loading cast in 8mm and am getting set up for 30-30 - I have "M dies" for both. If the expander pug on the M die is the correct size for your cast boolit, how does it remove too much neck tension? Does it not (if correct size) expand the neck to the correct dimension of your boolit and give a little flare to act as a "shoe horn" so to speak?

Example -on my 8mm, my plug is .323 and I'm loading three different cast boolit designs/weights. Some cast right at .323, some .3235 to .324 or so. I'm just backing out my FLdie and neck sizing. One of the boolits I can gently seat by hand and then I put a very mild crimp on the edge of the neck where the crimp groove of the boolit is with my Lyman 310 neck sizing die - works great.

I'm guessing it's the same with 30-30 as far as the M die goes. If the expander plug of the M die is matched to the boolit to create neck tension - how does it remove too much?

Again . . not being argumentative . . . you obviously have experienced a problem with it and I'm just curious as to what it was? I'll also add that all I load is "cast" so maybe I'm missing something as far as loading commercial bullets?

Thanks.

OP - not trying to steal the thread . . I have a Lee crimp for my 8mm but have never needed it (so far). Different cartridge than the 30-30 but same issues could apply.
It was the "bump" to expand the mouth so a boolit could be set in the case. On short neck brass, you can lose half the tension. I suppose if you adjust so it is not more then a flare, it would work OK.
I lost trust in Lyman when I bought a neck size die for the 45-70. Without expanding, a .460" boolit will drop in and turn it upside down, the boolit falls out.

[44man]

Plus one on all of the above, are you using GCs? could be a size issue. It happened to me the GCs had a bit of spring and were a bit bigger than the boolit after sizeing and crimping. Once i seated the boolit there was no neck tension on the lead part of the boolit and the GC was below the neck. Ended up loading singles and increaseing the COL.
Perfect neck tension is important
You must crimp with tube mags

be well
I have posted about this before. Since revolvers are my biggest game I was not sizing boolits much. I mostly use Lee push through to remove excess lube. I was using a .432" die to lube .431" boolits and the GC was larger then the boolit and opened brass for tension loss.
I said to size with a die that is boolit diameter and never larger if you have a GC.
You go on my list of guys with knowledge. Very good post that many should read.

[44man]

The "M" die is supposed to flare also and it can go too deep in the neck.
When I load the 30-30 I use a home made flare tool so I do not open brass. I want the full length of the neck to hold a boolit. Cast is a pain since there is LUBE on the boolit that makes them easier to move. I sure do not want any part of the neck at boolit size.

[leebuilder]

Thanks 44man, i try to pass on my experience, does not come out perfectly worded at times.
Accually got some of the m style dies from NOE the other day, any tips??

Trial and terror

I have learned so much from this site, hope to share and add.
be safe

[44man]

I would insert the "M" die just enough to start a boolit and no more. If you still need a small flare, do it extra.
It is sad most rifle dies are not made for cast and have no flare die.
But I would say you have learned far beyond most shooters. All these years I never expected to find what you said since I was ignored.
My post about over size GC's went nowhere.

[leebuilder]

Thanks.
same old story you only hear stuff when it goes bad, never a good word when stuff goes well.
Good to get some feed back, i think i am a thread killer.
finally got a nice day, time to sew in some seeds.
Be well.
Ralph

[SniderBoomer]

My Marlin 30-30 groups best with 0.311 boolits, Lee Collet Neck-Size-only die on fired brass, then Lyman M-Die for case neck-expansion prior to seating (only enough of the 'flare' part to seat without shaving lead or gas-check), and Lee FCD at the barest-minimum setting, especially when using reduced loads - it really make a difference with reduced loads. I never use it at normal crimp settings with cast unless I am using very hard boolits, such as an oven-hardened hardcast with points made soft by blowlamp-annealed boolits stood up to the bands in water. Just a barely-there crimp.

NOE Molds make 'M-Die Style' custom expander plug inserts for the standard Lee Universal Expander. You can get more or less precisely the neck tension you need, and very good value.

[44man]

Sounds good to me, have to fiddle with adjustments to make things work.
I barely FL for my Marlin, just enough to close the bolt and my rounds do not fit other guns like the 94 my friend has, I have to FL all the way for his. Mine would not go in a pump gun either.
Brass grows and shoulders move from bolt spring so I don't think I can neck size.
I trim every loading since I see some growth. I use 3031 and 4895 lower end loads but still see growth.

[BCB]

I just finished a little project with the 30-30 Winchester. I’ve been reloading that cartridge for 40+ years and I can’t say I have had even a slight problem with it. I started loading jacketed bullets in it, but now I only shoot cast boolits in it…

I just sized a case in a Lyman die of considerable age—the first and only 30-30 die set I ever purchased. I removed the decapping and expanding plug and just sized it and measured it when it came out of the die. The outside of the neck measured 0.3255”. Again, this is without expanding it. The expander plug in this die set is 0.308”…

I shoot the 311041 and the Lee C309-150F, both of which are gascheck design. I seat the check and size the boolit to 0.310” in a LAM2 sizer. Sometimes it barely touches the Lee boolit…

I expand the neck with an RCBS neck expander die to 0.309”…

I use the Lee FCD and I have had no problems at all with the 30-30 Winchester cartridge in a Model 336 Marlin, several Model 1894 Winchesters and in my T/C Super 14” contender…

I’ve shot powders with burn rates from Bullseye to 5010-PD with no ignition problems, but plenty left unburnt with powders slower than say, H380…

I think you might want to size a case without the decapping pin and expander plug in the die. Then measure the outside of the case neck. Measure your expander plug in the sizing die also…

It sure sounds like something is out of whack for sure…

Good-luck…BCB

[44man]

I have mentioned run out before several times. Rolled a round on the table and seen the boolit going all around. Since it is hard to measure on a cast boolit I checked just the necks and had upwards of .020". Imagine out on the boolit? I found most 30-30 brass I had showed a large range of neck thickness variations. I set up my RCBS neck turner and was amazed how much was taken off one side while not touching the other.
I now have from zero to .002" and accuracy really improved. Start a crooked boolit and it will stay crooked.
Give your loads the roll test once. Once turned it might take a fire forming to get them perfect.

[leebuilder]

Plus one on all you said 44man. 303 share the same foybbles as 3030, a simple roll test will show you fliers. And during seating rotate your round and repeat, basic stuff.
Be safe

[jlchucker]

No, this is misinformation. The rifle FCDs are collet style. No swaging.

Right on, Imort. I use rifle FCDs on several calibers, and although I've got them in the pistol calibers that I load for, I seldom if ever use the older pistol caliber FCD's. At one point, Lee was offering pistol caliber FCD's in collet the collet design, a couple of years ago. I've got a couple of those but choose to crimp my pistol loads in the conventional manner.

[jmort]

"Lee was offering pistol caliber FCD's in the collet design, a couple of years ago."

They still do but selection is hit and miss depending on production. I have two .357 mag collet FCDs, but have come to prefer the Redding Profile crimp die for revolvers. For rifles, I like the FCD.

[williamwaco]

You need a proper FL size die, which should give good case neck tension, seat bullets with a seating die, then crimp with the same die as a sep. step, no other gimmicky dies needed

Ditto.


+1

[BCB]

Have we answered the OP's question as to why his boolits fall into the sized case?

This thread sure went off on a tangent...

Good-luck...BCB

[popper]

I use the Lee FL sizer sans deprimer pin, 31M Lyman plug and Lee universal for belling, FCD to remove the bell. Haven't trimmed 30/30 for years. The Marlin takes 311 only.

[BCB]

I use the Lee FL sizer sans deprimer pin, 31M Lyman plug and Lee universal for belling, FCD to remove the bell. Haven't trimmed 30/30 for years. The Marlin takes 311 only.

I guess "sans" means without?...

Do you deprime with a universal deprimer or do you size with deprimer pin and then remove and then resize again?...

Guess I'm asking, when does the primer get removed?...

Thanks...BCB

[44man]

Easy. I made all kinds to punch primers. Any caliber, here are a few.141751

[BCB]

I suspect the OP is not still sure why his boolits fall into the case neck after he has sized his brass…

He has not been given much info to try to try to resolve the issue with the tools he is presently using…

He wants to know what the problem might be—He is given all kinds of “sophisticated” answers that he may not even have the equipment to try…

In my post #22 I tried to give him advice as to how to test to see if his sizing die might not be up to specs. Or his sizing plug might be wrong…

If he needs a crimping die to hold the boolit in place, there is something wrong—period…

He needs basic numbers before he starts to neck turn, roll a case on the bench, crimp with a taper of roll, etc…

It’s nice you make all kinds of punch primers, but did the OP really ask for that info—no he didn’t. He still is trying to figure out why his boolits fall into the case after it has been sized—a damn simple question and that is what needs addressed…

I tried to give him some numbers to check. OP, try sizing a boolit without the check and see it it falls through when being seated…

44man talks of the check being sized, then springing back and then opening up the neck during seating—I have yet to see that in many many rounds of the 30-30 that I have loaded with cast. And that applies to all checked boolits and bottlenecked cases…

I am a bit uncertain that you are even being given any advice concerning your major problem. I doubt you really care about neck tension fine tuning—you have no neck tension. I doubt you care about boolit concentricity—you can’t even get the boolit to stay in the neck…

Focus on the neck dimensions that are being produced by the sizing die and the expander plug. Then make sure your boolits are being sized to approximately the diameter your boolit sizing die indicates…

That’s my advice—worry about level 4 after you get level 1 in handled—that being, getting the boolit to seat correctly and at least “stay in place”…

Worry about concentricity, neck turning, and other fine tuning after you get the boolit to stay in the neck…

Good-luck…BCB

[fouronesix]

I shoot a Model 94 Winchester 30-30 with 22 graims IMR 4198 and a Lee flat point gas checked bullet. Sometimes the bullets fall into the shell, should I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? Anyone use one with Cast?

[For clarification as there is still confusion between the two types of Lee FCDs. There is a huge difference between the carbide ring type FCD common to many pistol calibers and the collet type FCD common to the rifle calibers. The carbide ring type FCD is similar in many ways to the standard crimp shoulder in many bullet seating dies]

"should I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die?"….. maybe. But, neck tension doesn't take the place of a crimp and a crimp doesn't take the place of neck tension.

"Anyone use one with Cast?"….. yes. I do for many loads of both cast and jacketed bullets. First, set full length sizing die to just barely touch shoulder but deep enough so the round chambers easily. Trim all cases to same length. Lightly chamfer inside and outside of case mouth. Seat bullets so mouth is at forward edge of crimp groove- just behind drive band. Load a magazine full and one in the chamber. Fire one round. Unload mag tube. Check by measuring with calipers to see if any of the bullets have been pushed deeper into the case. If not then there is enough neck tension to hold bullets with that load and only minimal crimp, if desired for insurance, is needed.

Loosen FCD (turn out) so a loaded round goes all the way up and the case mouth doesn't touch the collet. Then turn the FCD down so that the case mouth touches the collet, lower the ram and turn down the FCD about 1/4 turn and set in place. Raise the ram and the case mouth should be compressed just a tad into the crimp groove just behind the drive band. For heavier bullets and/or stiffer loads- simply turn down the FCD another 1/4 turn to apply a little more crimp.

An no, the Lee rifle FCD is not a gimmick. It does an excellent job of applying a crimp to a rifle round without wrinkling the case neck or loosening neck tension. It simply compresses the case mouth from the sides inward. On the other hand the roll crimp shoulder in the bullet seating die directs a lot of force to the rear and can wrinkle case necks and lessen neck tension. The Lee rifle FCD is very forgiving of slight variations of case length and force applied but the roll crimp shoulder in a seating die is not forgiving of these variations. Plus the Lee rifle FCD can be used to apply a small amount of crimp into a cast bullet shank where no crimp groove exists. Whereas the regular roll crimp shoulder in the bullet seating die will simply cause the case mouth to scrape up a wall of lead shavings during the crimping process as the bullet is seated- many times even while crimping into a crimp groove.

[44man]

You fellas are correct and I have also mentioned the dies need checked, seems as if they are not sizing.
I can't give dimensions of course since my cases are turned so it would do him no good.
As mentioned a hard roll crimp can bulge the brass and loosen the tension but then they will not chamber anyway so to look for a better crimp to replace tension is 100% wrong.
The FCD can do a wonderful job but is no replacement either.
Personally I would toss the dies and buy Hornady dies. They size and expand right and the inline seater is great.
I am correct about the checks, if larger then the boolit you will size the brass with it and when it pops into the neck area you will lose tension on the boolit. Size the check the same size as the boolit. I did not say a word about "springback." I said I was using a boolit size die larger then the boolit.
All of this is long distance so if I had his dies I could find the problem. I have added a lot more info about the 30-30 that is relevant and will improve accuracy. If you can't use it, ignore it.
Looking back, my first response was the dies. If they don't work, there is nothing you can do.
We stray all the time after correct answers are given so it is up to the OP to figure it out, sorry if I can't make the size die tighter.
BCB, you gave proper advice with the last post and it has been already said. Just don't deny the man other things to do once he gets it right. I don't deny any experience for all others reading a post either.
Some of us are hand loaders and some are reloaders. A new guy needs all the help he can get. A hand loader knows exactly what to do and expect and how to fix. To just put a few things together and ask questions is why we are here. I think a few others have picked up on some things to think about.

[popper]

Universal deprimer. I process a lot of different cals so it's easy to just change the shell plate.

[Elbow]

So, after all that info I'm a little confused. I have a bunch loaded up and they shoot great but once in a while the bullet will fall into the case when used in my model 04 magazine tube. Will the Lee Factory Crimp die fix this?

[jmort]

"Will the Lee Factory Crimp die fix this?"

Yes, but you may have a neck tension issue as well.

[Elbow]

Thanks for the answer jmort, my bullets are shooting well, so will the neck tension issue matter if I use the lfc?

[lightload]

Elbow, I have a Lyman .30-.30 die set somewhere in my "junk"(wife's term). I'll be happy to send the dies to you so that you can try another set. Just return them.

[44man]

Crimp will not replace neck tension. Most bolt guns and single shots can go with less but not a lever gun or revolver. The very worst is to have a boolit go into the case no matter what you shoot. However you do NOT want boolit pull from recoil either.
The BPCR can get away with less tension because the boolit is against the powder or wads, no air space.
Buy good dies.

[lesharris]

I used the Lee FCD in all bullets being used in tubular magazines it has eliminated bullet set back in the tubes.
I do not use in pistol loads.
Les Harris.

[MT Chambers]

Any die that crimps can crimp a bullet into the case, even without case neck tension.......but you do not want that, you want consistent case neck tension and lots of it, for proper and consistent ignition and velocities, think more about FL sizing die and proper expander, and less about gimmicks.

[Shiloh]

Just to close the case mouth bell.

Shiloh

[BCB]

Any die that crimps can crimp a bullet into the case, even without case neck tension.......but you do not want that, you want consistent case neck tension and lots of it, for proper and consistent ignition and velocities, think more about FL sizing die and proper expander, and less about gimmicks.

Indeed...

Some have tried to address the OP's problem...

Get out the micrometers or calipers and measure...

Once you get the boolit to "stay in the neck" then go for the sophisticated stuff...

Gotta walk before you can run...

Good-luck...BCB

[44man]

Just to close the case mouth bell.

Shiloh
Not enough in a tube magazine, still need some crimp but not too much. I use a roll crimp in everything, moderate to just fold brass to the bottom of the groove, even in the .500's. Lee boolits need more care as grooves are shallow but they will hold. Tension first.
My tests with all crimps from none, (shooting single shot.) to full profile and FCD's has shown no difference in accuracy as long as tension is correct.
I also seat and crimp in one step, you need to go very far out to prove you need to crimp separately.
I do not crimp for bolt guns, even the .300 Weatherby since tension holds bullets in the magazine.
Tube magazines have more rounds under recoil plus spring pressure so you need some crimp.
BCB in his last post has wisdom but he always dances around what I say, it's OK, we have a history after all. My friend has never proven me wrong.
I go by FEEL and can measure seating pressures. The seating pressure is very close to what it takes to pull or move a bullet.141970 My average groups at 100 yards with the 30-30 Remlin. The can is 3/16", easier to aim at. I hate paper.

[leebuilder]

Nice shooting 44man. I go by feel too, just a bit and inspect then readjust if more crimp is needed, you can crush the casing enough that the reloads will be rendered usless.
I only ever crimp for tube mags and wheel guns, light crimp for my hunting rounds for water resistance and durability.
When i stared reloading cast i thought it was just like j bullits,,,, boy i was wrong, lots of challenges and fliers.
Trial and terror

Stay simple less chances if "digging a hole" as it were.
Be safe

[fouronesix]

I shoot a Model 94 Winchester 30-30 with 22 graims IMR 4198 and a Lee flat point gas checked bullet. Sometimes the bullets fall into the shell, should I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die? Anyone use one with Cast?

The highlighted portion alone is telling no matter the debate of this, that or the other crimp process. There is more to the story not revealed in the OP.

1) With the bullet dropping through the neck on a sized case…. something is not right. After running case though die there should be at least some neck tension even with slightly undersized cast bullets of .307-8 diameter. After all, normal 30-30 sizing dies and neck expanders are designed for Jbullets in that diameter range.

2) Either the sizing die is not right or the neck expansion button or expander is not right or the bullet is extremely small diameter.

3) Crimping for revolver loads is NOT the same as crimping for tube magazine or heavy recoiling box magazine loads. Crimping is secondary to decent neck tension. But positive crimping is sometimes needed. The collet type Lee FCD die is not a gimmick (but I repeat myself). It is the ONLY commonly available crimping die that will work for certain applications. Heavy roll crimping can actually loosen neck tension. Roll crimping done during bullet seating can cause problems- I've had too much experience re-loading to know that it can and sometimes does.

[44man]

I was different all my life. Shooting cast for 62 years or more. Then a long time with jacketed, chucks to over 600 yards to competition.
I found cast took to jacketed procedures and loads so I tried to make cast act like the "J" words. I found no use for shotgun powders in rifles, why Unique? Why shoot slower?
In all these years I seat and crimp at one time. I have separate crimp dies too but most will not let a cast pass through. made for jacketed.
Then a friend brought a box of .454 rounds, factory cast, Double Tap. I asked why so much crimp, full profile. Two shots tied up the guns, SRH and more. Boolits pulled. Not a single one of my reloads pulled.
Double Tap has some super boolits and if loaded right they are as good as it gets. But tension was wrong on the loads. The crimp failed as tight as it was. I would not want to be in bear country unless I loaded the rounds. In all these years, I have not had a single failure.
Guns got larger and recoil so much more you need a hard hat, yet I have no problems. Does a .500 need more crimp? NO. Do I seat and crimp together-YES.