Ballisti-cast Mark X machine issues.

[nh7792]

2 months ago I purchased a Ballisti-cast Mark x and the Mark 6 lube-sizer, and 16 Accurate molds for the casting machine. Let me start with the Mark 6, even though it isn't automated, it is a great sizing machine. I used Star sizing dies from Magma, and a Mr. Bullet Feeder with a nose down plate, the combo works great and have had zero issues with those two items.
As for the Mark X manual casting machine, I have had issues from day 1. First the melting pot would keep blowing heating elements, and then the machine wasn't aligned right causing fins on all the bullets cast, got those issues resolved, and now I'm getting pinch marks on every other bullet from the mold opening 1 side before the other. NV Ballistics claims it's the molds, and I am awaiting an email form Tom at Accurate molds to come over and see it in operation, so he can possibly find the cause or at least be able to say it isn't his molds. I have had the machine for 2 months with maybe 200 USABLE bullets. Every other bullet gets the pinch mark.
Has anyone recently purchased one of the Mark X machines and had issues??

Image is of the pinch marks on the bullets.

[Labanaktis]

I had a Mark X. I had issues with a "V" shape pinch like the 3rd from the left. It never went away. It was NV molds to. It seemed like it was machine related. Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

also Pm'd you

Matt

[Ausglock]

I found that the "pinch is caused by too tight a slot in the carrier arm where the mounting key fits into. they have to be a loose wobble fit and only come together tight at the top position for pouring and at the front position for cooling before the sprue is cut.
Hardline mold did it.

[ssnow]

I'll preface this post by saying I'm hesitant to post anything at all on the subject, as the explanations can be difficult with the written word and easily misunderstood. Nothing said here is intended as a criticism of anyone, but rather a bona-fide attempt to help with your problem.

I'll take a WAG and say the problem is not the molds themselves, as Tom makes very good molds. The problem may be in the mounting hardware, or rather what you did to make the hardware work. But, lets see.

First, you mention that one side is opening before the other. If this is the case, that could indeed cause binding and the pinch mark.

I would remove the molds from the machine, and verify if one side is opening sooner or not. It's either happening or it's not, you have to know for sure.

If one side is indeed opening sooner, then we have to determine why. If we assume for now that the parts are machined correctly, then the cause has to be that the cams are not in alignment with each other or the mold carrier is bolted down at an angle to the cams.

That's all there is. For one side to be opening sooner, that side must be reaching the opening detent on the cam before the other. Either by means of misalignment of the cams, or the mold carrier being at an angle to the cams. (Again, assuming properly machined parts)

Now, back to the mold mounting hardware. You mention in your post that "the machine wasn't aligned right causing fins on all the bullets cast", but that you have resolved that issue.

It is not clear to me what machine misalignment would cause fins, unless you simply mean the molds were not closing tight enough.

If they were not closing properly, what did you do to resolve the issue? At that point in the game, the easiest apparent fix is to adjust the cams (or possibly only one cam) inboard so that the mold would close.

(If this is the case, then realize that the NVT hardware to mount the molds may be dimensionally different from what you used. In which case, the machine itself may not have been misaligned or maladjusted at all. Rather a dimensionally different part was used from a different manufacturer)

Now, if you did adjust the cam(s) in order to made the molds close properly, then a careful inspection of the cam's positioning is in order to ensure that they are adjusted properly. In short, verify that your fix to the first problem is not creating the new problem.

All of these items are adjustment and/or mismatched parts issues, and I suspect that is where you will find the problem.

I don't really expect machining errors, but anyone can make a mistake. If they exist, you should be able to find them.

I would verify that; the cams (particularly the opening detent) are cut the same and start in the same place; that the mounting position of the center shaft is the same side to side, that the mounting holes for the cams are centered around the center shaft and that the mounting holes in the mold carriers and center shaft are properly centered. I doubt you will find errors in these areas, but they are things that could cause the problem if a mistake was made in the machining process.

[nh7792]

The keys from Accurate and from Ballisti-cast fit snug in the carrier arm, but do have enough play to let the molds align correctly when closing. NV machine said to make sure that the keys were tightened down pretty tight to the carrier arm. When the sprue is cut and the mold is almost to the point on the cam that allows the halves to open and separate, you can see the side closest to you start to open but pinching the other side thousandths before the drop on the cam that opens both sides.
I tried to get it right at the spot I described to take the picture. (need 3 hands)

[AbluquerqueBullet,LLC]

If what i am looking at in the picture is flat dents and not blades that stick out.

It happens when the molds are not FIRMLY! together when the sprue is being cut. you need to bring the 2 rings that close the molds in closer. When the pin on the machine hits the sprue cutter the forces are transferred to the bolt and the mold block that its in driving it back up and to the right giving a slight sises effect flating out a spot on the boolits as the 2 molds shift. i can see a big gap in the molds on that last pic but i dont own a mark X i have 2 mark IIs.

Hope that helps

[nh7792]

That last image is after the sprue is cut, and right before the cam drops to open the mold halves. The gap isn't there when filling and when the sprue is cut.

[ssnow]

The picture shows that the carriers are properly aligned, which eliminates that as a possible cause. That leaves cam adjustment as the only remaining item that would cause one side to open before the other.

That said, if there is enough clearance in the mounting keys, then the cam does not have to be perfect. The keys should have enough clearance to move both up and down, and inboard/outboard. If there is not enough inboard/outboard clearance, then the cam position would become very critical in order to avoid binding.

It is hard to tell from the picture, but it appears that there is no clearance between the key and the mold in the inboard/outboard direction. How much clearance exists ?

[Labanaktis]

Edited my post.... Never mind .... I'm staying outta this one...

[6bg6ga]

If the molds are not firmly together adjust the 4 adjusting bolts on the left side of the machine in order to make the molds mate up. I have a poor mans ballisti-cast machine that only holds 2) mold sets. The problem usually stems from the mounting pieces that are attached to the molds. Any deviation in width can cause either a bind up condition or a non-closure condition. If you measure the overall width of the mold sets one can tell if a shim and or adjustment is needed. Its a simple fix. I run a lot of used bullet molds off ebay that are both either old ballisti-cast or magma in nature.

[ssnow]

The clearance is not difficult to measure. It can be as simple as holding a mold half in you hand, press the key inboard and measure the width of the mold and key.......now hold the key outboard as far as it will go with you thumb and forefinger and measure again. The difference between the two measurements is your amount of clearance. You could be off a little with this measurement if you are holding the key outboard at some angle, but it's close enough for what we are trying to determine.

[ssnow]

Opps, the was question deleted.......well, the answer may help someone else anyway :) Sorry about that.

[nh7792]

141628141629Here are a few pictures of the cam. As you can almost see, almost at the drop point it is shaved down a bit, it is at that point during the rotation that the molds begin to open while still having pressure from the sprue plate cutting rod thingy. (forgot what the parts called) It is at this point that the closest end of the mold starts to open while the back of the mold remains closed and causing the pinch marks.

[nh7792]

I want to thank you all for your input on this. I wasn't too surprised to learn others have had the exact same issues with the Mark X and pinched bullets, from what I have heard the older machines were built better than the new ones.

[nh7792]

Does anyone have an older machine? if so, do the cams have the same little slopes before the drop.
I've been playing with the machine for several hours trying to determine if the cams are the cause with the combined stress of the sprues being cut, or if it's something else. Everything seems to be where it should and do what it should be doing, and the shaved section of the cam right before the drop is the only thing I can see that could cause it.

[Ausglock]

how old is your machine?

Ours were made in June/July 2014 we have 2 of them.
No issues except for the crimp on cable end coming off a element connection. Added extra shims to the right side cam ring to fully close the mold halves.
Added Electric solenoid to the pour lever.
Currently working on an electric drive and linkage for the rotation lever.
Still have to press a button to pour and another to rotate.
Then comes the PLC for the whole operation with load sensing to prevent damage when a bullet hangsup in a cavity.

[nh7792]

Mine was made in April 2015. Do your cams have that little slope right before the drop that opens the molds to release the bullets?

[ssnow]

I have an earlier machine, and the cams do not have that lead in cut......so obviously there has been a design change there. Provided the cams are properly adjusted though, they should still open the same amount at the same time.

If you are correct that the pinch is happening because the sprue plate is still engaging the pin while the molds are beginning to open, then you may be able to adjust the pin to engage the sprue plate earlier in the cycle. When you are dealing with timing issues, a small adjustment can go a long way.

On my machine, the pin bracket is adjustable both in and out, and side to side. There is not a height adjustment, other than what play is available in the slots for the bolts. However, there would be no reason that I could not raise the whole bracket if I needed to do so.

[Ausglock]

Ours have the ramped down section.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150610_170307.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150610_170307.jpg.html)

[nh7792]

Well, it wasn't the machine. Keith at Ballisti-Cast sent out a brand new machine with 4 brand new 40cal molds. (I got to pick design and weight) I ran the machine with their molds for a while tonight and cast a few hundred .401-180gr-RNFP with zero issues, there were no pinch marks and the mold lines were almost invisible until the mold got hot. I put on 2 of the Accurate 9mm 125gr molds and ran the 2 9mm and 2 40 molds for about 30 minutes. The 40s came out just fine, a few wrinkles while heating them back up, and a few minor dings from them dropping right in to the catch tray, but no pinch marks at all, the 9mm from the accurate molds looked just the same as they have from day one, the exact same pinch mark on over half the bullets.
Hopefully Tom/Larry at Accurate will do the right thing and do a return/refund on the molds. They may be up to spec on his end, but they didn't work at all with the Ballisti-Cast machines. I also want to give 2 thumbs up for Ballisti-cast/NV-Ballistics, Keith went above and beyond to make sure to make sure their machine wasn't the cause of the problems.

[Ausglock]

Keith is very good to deal with.

Do the NVB molds fit the same as the accurate molds?
I mean ... like fit of the keys to the carrier arms etc etc etc.
Were the accurate molds steel or Ali?

[GARD72977]

Im glad to see this resolved. I have a machine that has not been used yet. Work is killing me and I need to run some 22O to the shop.

[TomAM]

When I started making Ballisti-Cast style mold blocks a view years ago, I derived the block specs from precise measurements that I took from B-C molds sent to me by my first three B-C customers.
These blocks were of various ages, and were not extremely consistent. The sprue pivot location from the centers of the blocks, for example, varied by a few thousandths.
I laid out my blocks using the dimensional averages.
Since then, I have made dozens of sets of B-C molds in iron and aluminum and they are being used on these machines around the world with no reported problems at all.

If the OP returns these molds in usable condition, I want to give (yes, give) these mold block sets to any people here who regularly use B-C machines, particularly the Mark X. People who are familiar with the machines and know how to set them up and adjust them. I would like to see feedback about the molds’ performance.

It appears likely that the problem here is that the block is starting to open before the sprue is totally cut. I just cannot believe that this feature of the machine has no adjustability. But if there is a feature of my mold blocks which is dimensionally incorrect, I obviously need to know about it.


Do I have any takers? Available designs are as follows, in sets of four molds:
35-125PZ
36-155P
40-180Z
45-230MZ

Please respond on this thread, and be willing to post feedback on this thread.

[sdharley]

That is a very generous offer Tom. I just received 4 molds from you to run in an old mark 2 machine that I just acquired. Had a little trouble getting 1 of the molds to fill out correctly but once I got the flow rate correct and ran them a little hotter they drop great bullets. Would recommend your molds to anyone
Curt

[Ausglock]

Tom.
I have a few of your hand molds. 35-168Z 35-150Z.

They are bloody great.
I'd love to try your 40-180Z and 45-230MZ molds.
We have 2 Ballisti Mark X. Both were made by NV Machine . We have been running them for almost 12 months.
Molds have been Ballisti, NV Ballistics and Hardline.
The very first hardline molds were too tall for the smaller Mark X machine. I had a local machine shop mill them down. I have accurate mold drawings and can measure molds from NVB that work fine.
I'm in Australia..
Love to hear from you...

[TomAM]

Tom.
I have a few of your hand molds. 35-168Z 35-150Z.

They are bloody great.
I'd love to try your 40-180Z and 45-230MZ molds.
We have 2 Ballisti Mark X. Both were made by NV Machine . We have been running them for almost 12 months.
Molds have been Ballisti, NV Ballistics and Hardline.
The very first hardline molds were too tall for the smaller Mark X machine. I had a local machine shop mill them down. I have accurate mold drawings and can measure molds from NVB that work fine.
I'm in Australia..
Love to hear from you...

PM your shipping info, and I will consider them spoken for. Thanks!

[Ausglock]

PM sent..

[nh7792]

Tom. I had the sprue cutter raised higher than what it came at and still had the same issues. the sprue was cut before the molds started to open. I have ran the machine with the NV-Ballistics molds 3 times, casting well over 5k bullets. Out of all of them maybe 5% were duds, either cold mold wrinkles or poor fill out from the lead pouring at a funky angle out of the orifice when the fan was on, but no pinch marks at all.
Tom, I have 5 of your hand molds and have nothing but good to say about them, in fact, I can proudly say that with the 356125PZ 5 cavity I have easily cast well over 60k PERFECT bullets, broke 2 lee 6 cavity handles in that time, but they were Lee so it's expected.
I did give you a few chances to come and see first hand what was going on, but you refused to give an hour of your time to try and pinpoint the issue and prevent a return/refund. So before questioning the ability/knowledge of the person operating the machine, maybe you should contact NV-Ballistics and get up to date info and specs on the machines and molds.

[TomAM]

I think I might have this figured out, although it has taken a lot longer than an hour.

The returned 9mm molds were severely scarred and galled on top, from sprue plates that had not been deburred or lubricated, and probably were over-tightened.
Experienced machine casters know that this happens to unlubed iron blocks as well, although it can take a bit longer.
Coupled with the damage done to the block faces and alignment pins when you changed out the mounting hardware, I couldn’t see how these blocks could ever produce usable boolits at all, but that didn’t answer the pinch issue.

Then I remembered that in post 20 you said that my 40 cal molds worked fine. So I contemplated what the difference could be since all the blocks are identical except for the cavities.

I think I know now. You used the 40 cals only for that short test, and they are still in good shape. But the 9mm blocks cannot be moving freely or properly when the sprue plate is basically welding itself to them. The 9mms show evidence that the tops have been re-surfaced (out of square) with some sort of abrasive, and then re-ruined with the same abuse.

I think that extra friction was the difference.

I suppose that there could be some slight chance that the Mark X was designed to not function with standard BC mold blocks, and require something special, but that’s extremely unlikely. Either way, I’ll soon know for sure.

[nh7792]

The 40 molds mentioned in post 20 were the NV-Ballistics molds and your 9mm molds.

[Ausglock]

I have the Accurate Molds for 40 and 45 calibre.
I should get a chance to test them next week.

[Ausglock]

Well. I finally got time to try these molds from Accurate Molds.
They were not New molds.
It looks like they were used and returned as there were "usage" marks (looks like someone tried to pry them open with a screwdriver)

I'll do a full write up in a few days with photos etc etc.
But I can tell you all now. These molds worked 100% fine in both my Mark X machines.

No "pinch marks" etc etc.
I have applied a coat of HITEK coating to both 40 and 45 bullets. going to bake them and size them and include these in the photos as well.
These alloy molds need a few go rounds to get warmed up. But once hot, they cast perfectly.
Good molds, Tom

[TomAM]

Now that it's been proven that there's nothing wrong with my BC molds and this "problem" was nothing more than operator error, I still have eight of these returned molds to deal with.

I'd like to give them to anyone who'd like to try aluminum molds on their BC machines.
2024 aluminum is of course a bit softer than iron, but casting machines are not rough on molds and high quality aluminum works just fine.
Machine molds commonly get very rough handling by machine OPERATORS who do not know how to handle or store them, and I've seen many ruined sets of iron molds.

So, here is an opportunity for any competent BC machine user to get some free molds.

Design #35-125PZ and #35-155P. The 125PZ set was badly abused, but I have reconditioned them and they should be serviceable.

Who would like to have them?

[Ausglock]

I'd put my hand up, But I already have the 40 and 45 molds. So I'll pass and let somebody else have them. I'll get the full write up done this week. Been on vacation. Sorry Tom.

[AbluquerqueBullet,LLC]

I would like to have them and put them to a real test in a commercial casting operation. I have 2 ballisti-cast machines.

[ffries61]

I have a Mark X also, if the 155P is still available I'd love to try them.

Fred

[TomAM]

I would like to have them and put them to a real test in a commercial casting operation. I have 2 ballisti-cast machines.

PM your shipping info and you will receive four #35-125PZ molds.

I apologize for their condition; there was an attempt to change out the mounting hardware using a hammer or something, and the tops have been re-surfaced twice, so there is only about 65% of the bevel base left.

But they are free, after all, and the cavities and fit are not damaged.

[TomAM]

I have a Mark X also, if the 155P is still available I'd love to try them.

Fred

PM your shipping info and you will receive two #35-155P and two #35-147Y.
155P is set up for .358"+ diameter with COWW.
147Y is set up for .356"+ same alloy.

[Ausglock]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?????

[AbluquerqueBullet,LLC]

Any how these 125 molds will do for a perfect review of accurates molds as i will. . .



I expect to run 20-25 thousand bullets first run. Than the written review begins. Lest see how they do i hope they where reconditioned good

Good luck

[TomAM]

Actually, it was me who was ripped off when the OP filed a fraudulent claim against me because I would not run to his house and teach him how to operate his machine.

I’m making some lemonade here by using these returned molds to give multiple people a chance to find out how aluminum molds work in production machines.

I have given the mentioned designs to each person who has specifically requested that design.

You did not specify, and I did not expect that anyone would request molds that they did not have any use for.

These are not twice reconditioned; the first time was just a clueless guy with some sandpaper. If you would prefer not to receive them, I will offer them again for anyone else who wants them.

[AbluquerqueBullet,LLC]

Don't get me wrong i have use form them. you mentioned they where twice resurfaced in your reply. and that a hammer had been used once.
I guess its just my fault for not stating that the 155 would have been most useful as i mostly sell lube bullets. and have only recently started with the coatings. so i will need slick sided molds
So as mentioned before the 125 will be perfect for me and if they work out fine it will be most beneficial for Tom as i am still a growing company with a $6k shopping list for molds.

[TomAM]

All molds will be shipped Monday.

A big thank you to Ausglock for his work with these molds, and for providing tips for Mark X users.

[ffries61]

Awesome, thanks again Tom, I'm sure these will be as good as the others (hand cast) I've bought from you.

Fred