Hard Lube vs Soft Lube

[jschance]

This question is an offshoot from another different question I've asked.

What are the benefits / detriments of the different lube types?

I'm casting for mainly pistols (.44 mag, .38 special, .357 Mag) and low intensity rifle (30-30, 45-70). I've historically used 50/50 Javilina Alox lube.

Would I be better suited going to a hard lube and the associated efforts (set lubrisizer with heater, etc)? Or does a soft lube suit just fine.

I haven't had any noticable problems so far, but I'm just getting into the 30-30, so I havn't even cast an bullets for it yet.

Thanks.

JSC

[TGM]

I use the same lube mostly for hand guns but have used it for my 45-70 also with good results.

TGM

[Wayne Smith]

Hard lubes are for shipping, soft lubes are for shooting. Not exclusively, but generally. Hard lubes may be for shooting in the summer in the desert Southwest?

[Harry O]

I don't use "hard" lubes. I define those as ones that need a heater to apply. Pretty much all that I buy are hard lubes. It is marginal at best.

For most of what I shoot, I use the standard 50-50 NRA lube. I consider that a medium hardness lube. Stiff, but no heater required. 50% beeswax and 50% Alox.

Unfortunately, it does not work at all for Black Powder. I use SPG for that and have also started using it for low velocity smokeless loads. You can spread it on with your fingers it is so soft.

I think correct lube hardness is directly related to the acceleration needed to move the lube out of its groove and onto the barrel. The higher the acceleration, the harder the lube must be. No mathematics on that, but I have tried.

[cbrick]

I think this article by Glen Fryxell will answer the question of hard vs soft lubes and your type of shooting very effectively.

Lubricating Cast Bullets (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm)

Rick

[44man]

Harry O, I shoot BPCR and there is not a single shooter at my club that will use SPG. I tried it when I first started and it left the last 10" of barrel full of hard, dry fouling. I tried to sell the rest with no luck so I just mixed it with other stuff.
Every single home made lube will better SPG. Plus the stuff is priced 10 times what it is worth.
Get some BP lube from Lar45 and be happy.
As far as anything with alox, I only use it for low velocity stuff, works good but I am convinced that it burns in the bore and you are only left with the beeswax that is degraded from the burning alox. I get enough junk from powder to have to put up with alox ash.
Lar makes a soft red lube that I believe has some alox in it but it outshoots 50-50 by quite a bit. I like the Carnauba Red for high velocity but it is a little hard. Felix lube will do it all from slow to thumping.
If you are in love with 50-50, get it from Glenn and save a lot of money. Help support one of our own, he is a super guy! :drinks:

[Bret4207]

SPG isn't nectar direct from the gods?!?! :shock:But, but, Mike Venturino says it's the best thing since non-corrosive priming and Zingers!!!!! :sad:How could this be? Wait a minute....you don't think "Duke" Venturino was giving his bud Steve's product a boost do you?;)


44man- You think the alox "burns" in the barrel? Could you explain please?

[jschance]

I've got two tubes of the 50/50 left, after that I'll be buying from one of the supporters of the boolits website. I was looking at LAR's soft red lube, and that's probably what I'll go with (any current users care to comment?)

[Harry O]

Harry O, I shoot BPCR and there is not a single shooter at my club that will use SPG.........Get some BP lube from Lar45 and be happy.


Thanks for the info. I don't shoot BPCR, but I do know that SPG was a great improvement over 50-50 when it comes to BP. 50-50 and BP give some nasty fouling. However, I have never liked the cost of SPG and would like to get something that works that costs less. I tried making my own Felix lube and ended up stinking up the house without getting anything that worked. The shaved Ivory just would not melt.

[mtgrs737]

I have been shooting Lar's BAC which is Bee's Wax, Alox, and Carnuba Wax. I like it better than the NRA 50/50 because it doesn't smoke, so maybe it isn't burning in the barrel. It also is easy to work with being a soft lube.

[44man]

Bret, when I see that much smoke come out of the barrel, something is burning and it also stinks. What other explanation can I deduce?

[Adam10mm]

I have a little corny saying of mine: Lar's Red, enough said.

[Bret4207]

Bret, when I see that much smoke come out of the barrel, something is burning and it also stinks. What other explanation can I deduce?

I wonder if we're talking burning or vaporized lube? I've seen the same thing and never thought about it burning. Actually, how could it "burn"? There isn't enough time in the barrel for it to build enough heat from friction to ignite and the confines of the barrel wouldn't allow enough oxygen there to support combustion. I think we're seeing the same thing, but the term isn't correct. Vaporization under pressure causing the gases to expand and the resulting cloud being those gases? Sounds better to me, but I'm open to another explanation. :confused:

[44man]

Bret, I feel as if what is left in the bore after the boolit passes is being consumed by the burning powder. Not too good for the next round.
I shoot really yucky boolits with Felix and Lar's lubes. The sides and even the nose will have all kinds of lube on them because I don't size, just remove excess lube.
I don't get any smoke! With as much lube as I use, vaporization would create a HUGE cloud.
Now alox, just in the grooves, will smoke. Shoot the stuff indoors and you can see it is really smoke, not droplets. If gas is seeping around my oversize boolits, alox sure is not sealing.
Another clue is the muzzle. With my lubes the muzzle will be wet. Not so with alox, it will be dry and sooty. Alox lubes seem to be the only ones that do smoke too.
I get leading with alox when I shoot my high velocities with heavy, oversize boolits. None of the other lubes, the LBT's, Lar's Carnauba Red or Felix will lead my guns and accuracy is better.

[Bret4207]

Huh. I get a real nice lube star with 50/50 alox. Same thing with Mule Snot and I leave it on like you do. I dunno. Could be you're right. I thought you meant the lube was burning around the boolit. The leftover lube being burned by the powder gases makes more sense when you put it that way. I still can't say for sure what happens and why. That part of what makes this interesting!

[fecmech]

JSchance--Try them both and then you decide what you like best. In handguns I see it as a Ford/Chevy debate.

[44man]

I think it is more of a difference in velocity, barrel length and pressure. It does work OK in my plinking loads but not in my long range or hunting loads. Lube needs tailored to the gun and load the same as powder. There are better lubes that work with everything so I don't fool with alox. I never figured out why it is so popular. It is not magic by any means. Olive oil would do better.

[mtgrs737]

I think that the NRA formula works for 90% of most folks cast boolit shooting and that is why so many use it. I agree with 44man that their are other lubes that would work better than the NRA lube but few want to experiment enough to find out.

[Irascible]

I use SPG with no problem. The new Midwy flyer has SPG at a lower price than the Alox/Beeswax!

[runfiverun]

venturino was an original partner in spg he isn't now
but he sure promotes it, think he pays for it?

i only use lubes that i have to use a heater with, and am happy

[robertbank]

Felix lube does it for me in all my pistol and rifle applications. Might try a hard super duper lube one day in rifle but for pistol at least soft is for shooters.

Take care

Bob

[calsite]

by the time I got done reading all of the lube posts my eye's needed some lube. You guys read my "heavy boolits continued" post, it may be lube related

[DJWright]

The only thing hard lube is good for is shipping bullets, period! I have done some pretty extensive testing for my cast bullet business. The hard lubed do not get to the rifle grooves as needed to do any real good. Also the hard lubes will break off partially and will act upon the bullaet as an out of balance car tire, causing the bullet to actually spiral in air around it's axis as much as 8" at long range. I have watched with binoculars heavy .45-70 slugs do this as the sun reflected off the bases. When we dug the bullets from the soft clay banks half the lube was gone, while half was still stuck to the grooves. When using a very soft lube, this spiraling disappeared completely, and the bullet ran a straight course. For best results, all the lube should depart the bullet the instant in leaves the bore. Commercial bullet makers have a real challange however as the good stuff would melt during shipping and be one big mess by the time it reached the customer.

[quasi]

I have recently switched to BAC lube, it works better and is way cheaper than anyone else and he ships to Canada for an honest price. I still use LLA for .38 special, 45 acp and .455.

[HeavyMetal]

My beef with 50-50 alox started in 1977. I was shooting IPSC in those days and match's were set up to be shot rain or shine.

More shine than rain here in SoCal! We had a particularly hot summer that year and it didn't matter where you "hid" your ammo box by noon you could take a box of 45 ammo out of your storage system and actually pour the alox out of the ammo box!

Temp for the August match that year was 105 degrees! Everybody had jamming issues, alox running down cases and in ammo box's and, some claimed, contaminating powder charges!

I had never been happy with smell or smoke from the stuff and after the heat issue I started looking hard and heavy for other sources of bullet lube. I have not used Alox since 1977!

I have used angel blue for a long time, tried zambini red as well as other as they came into my purchasing path. I am currently trying out different formulas once again looking for a "Magic Bullet" that will yield accuracy, velocity and no smoke!

[Lloyd Smale]

I use alot of alox 5050 and alot of felix lube and i dont notice a differnce in the smoke from either. Both are smoky. I havent found a beeswax based lube yet that wasnt smokey. Ive also had very little problem with leading using either so i guess i wont worry about the smoke. Only problem with it was last time i shot an indoor ppc shoot i was using felix lubed bullets in my kimber and one of the guys on the line asked if i was using blackpowder as it made a pretty good cloud of smoke in an indoor range. I was kind of asked nicely to switch lubes or shoot jacketed bullets next time. Personaly i thought it was great. It didnt bother me at all. All a guy had to do was make sure you picked a spot in the line that was right next to your biggest competition and use it to put some pressure on him!!

[mcassill6933]

However, I have never liked the cost of SPG and would like to get something that works that costs lessng anything that worked.

I use DGL lube for my BP shooting, which I bought in tub form from Shiloh. Cheaper than SPG and works very well in a 30" barrel.
Mark

[leftiye]

Bret "vaporization under pressure" - Pressure prevents vaporization unless heat gets high enough to overcome it. Plus it is very possible that the material will burn before the temp necessary to vaporize it is reached. That there stinky stuff in the air might not be alox steam.