Aircraft ballast... What is it?

[JSnover]

It's very much like lead; soft, shiny when you first cut or scrape it, heavy. Oxidizes to grey but seems to hold its shine longer than lead. Our QA guys tell me it's not lead (they don't know what it is) and it's non-toxic. Comes in inch-thick plates, various shapes. Could it be bismuth? I'm thinking of melting and casting some just to see what happens.

[DLCTEX]

Try it and see, if it casts good boolits, great! If not, just a little time lost. DALE

[runfiverun]

if it melts at aout 200 its probaly bismuth, i would do a check on metal melt temps
and watch it carefully, for melt temp, would at least give you an idea of what ya got

[Sam]

Can't say about the plane yours came from but ballast for the F117, F102, F106 and F4 is lead.
Sometimes sheet, sometimes bars bolted in place, sometimes shot in potting compound.

It was pure lead and softer than the dickens, which meant that the holes around it's securing bolts got beat out of round and it got loose pretty often.:-D.

Sam

[felix]

Bismuth must be heavily compounded with something like cadmium to get a 200 F melting point. No, it is more like antimony at 1000-1100, and will take a special flux to make it melt properly in our pots. Best to acquire bismuth alloyed with something. Besides, it will be considerably cheaper thataway. ... felix

[windrider919]

Aircraft ballast.....Hmmmm. Well, I am an Aircraft Mechanic [and millwright] operating around Houston Texas and when we have to balance the control surfaces on 737s, 727s, etc (flaps, alerons, elevators, etc) we use the Boeing approved material. [Same with MacDonald-Douglas craft] Spent Uranium. Slightly heaver then lead but with aprox same melting point. Usually each piece is coated with white epoxy paint when it is already weighted and for a particular location, but the custom large pieces for aircraft balance (like in the nose or tail cone) come in big slabs, unpainted. It too comes in various shapes like you describe

By the way, lots of spent U235 is also used in sailboat keels because it is heavier. My old boats keel had been cast of lead reactor shield bricks, not spent U but it still had a slightly higher count than regular lead.

But, living in Denver exposes you to a higher anual dose of radiation then the spent U235. A frequent flyer receives a LOT of rads at altitude so your risk is not too high. EXCEPT YOU SHOULD BE EXTRA CAREFULL NOT TO BREATH THE FUMES FROM MOLTEN U !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like Salsa, just watch what you got, ....nuf said

[floodgate]

felix:

"Bismuth must be heavily compounded with something like cadmium to get a 200 F melting point. No, it is more like antimony at 1000-1100, and will take a special flux to make it melt properly in our pots."

I think you are off on that one; several sources tell me bismuth melts at about 520*F, a bit above tin; mixes well with tin, at least in the range of 5 - 10% Sn; is 85% the density of lead; and is certified non-toxic. I've gotten hold of 10# of 99.9% Bi, and quite a bit of tin in 1# refinery ingots, plus virgin Lee dip pot, dipper, thermometer from Bill Ferguson, and Lee RB moulds for comparison of shrinkage, hardness, etc., of 1:16 Sn/Bi with pure Pb.

floodgate

[felix]

You very well could be right, Doug, but are you sure you had straight up Bismuth? Prolly not if you got it for boolit stuff, the affordable variety. ... felix

[floodgate]

Felix:

Certified 99.9% pure from Rotometals, at $15 and change per lb.

MP data from my faithful "Rubber Bible" ("Handbook of Chemistry and Physics", 27th Edition, 1955, p. 2112, saw me through a degree in physics): 271.3C= 520.34F.

Density (ditto, pp. 1959-61): 9.747 gm./cc. = 608.5 #/cu. ft. vs. Pb: 11.005 gm./cc. (as cast) = 686.0 lb./cu.ft.; and Sn: 7.29 gm./cc. = 455.1 lb./cu. ft.

MSDS from <http://www.acialloys.com/msds/bi.html>; "may cause eye irritation...may cause mild skin irritation..(chronic exposure) may cause excess salivation, foul breath...NOW THERE'S THE STOPPER!

Doug

[felix]

Thanks, Doug, for looking that up. I don't realize how I got that one wrong, but sure did. No excuse, except the normal sayings (old fart). Dang, I gotta' watch those pink pills I take whenever I eat tacos. By the way, I love garlic, and Pat hates it. ... felix

[WKAYE]

Aircraft ballast.....Hmmmm. Well, I am an Aircraft Mechanic [and millwright] operating around Houston Texas and when we have to balance the control surfaces on 737s, 727s, etc (flaps, alerons, elevators, etc) we use the Boeing approved material. [Same with MacDonald-Douglas craft] Spent Uranium. Slightly heaver then lead but with aprox same melting point.


So.... fill us in. How does it cast ? [smilie=1:

[JSnover]

Thanks everyone!
This stuff came from a now-defunct F-15 squadron. It was bolted to a bulkhead in the forward fuselage for weight/balance adjustments. Some is painted green, some black, some yellow - like zinc-chromate primer.
I have a casting thermometer on order. As soon as it shows up I'll hack off a few small pieces, see what temperature it melts at.

[beagle]

I recall buying 1600 pounds of shot once to run some center of gravity tests on a Blackhawk. Easy to move around and it was of known weight (25# bags). The guy I bought it from had 7 1/2s and 9s and we mixed it up.

Funny thing, after dove season, we could only locate maybe 300#. Wonder where the remainder went??

We always used pure lead. Our application called for a 125# cast weight which after weighing the A/C had to be drilled to a specified weight +/- a half pound and bolted in and marked for that AC.

I'd say it's pure lead./beagle

[Russ in WY]

Newbie on this Brd, casted 30 yrs ago when shooting 45 ACP in AK & in the Military. We could only get Hardball ammo & it handicapped our team. So I got all the goodies a started making 185-200 gr SWC. Also made some 38 & 44 Boolits. Back to ??? , I have acquired some NEY alloy for Jewelery making 88% tin ,the rest being lead antimony & Cadmium . The latter being the least in qty. Is the Cad going to be a problem in using small amounts of this alloy as Tin input with lead to aid in mold fill out ??? Any input would be appreciated, TIA. Russ.

[floodgate]

Russ in WY:

Cadmium (Cd) in general is "bad news" from a safety standpoint, but I don't know how it works in alloys, or how it might escape in handling a cold casting or when melted. Cerrosafe is supposed to have some Cd in it, have always used a separate pot (tuna can) and a dedicated Lyman dipper for use with it, and have avoided overheating it more than needed to get a good casting, and cleaned up well afterward. I suggest you Google up "NEY Metal" and see if there is a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for it.

floodgate

EDIT: Googled "NEY Metal "and found they make a wide range of alloys; you'll have to pin yours down closer than that. Got the MSDS's for Cd (scary!) and for Cerrosafe (not real safe, but OK with reasonable care). Fg

[runfiverun]

that bismuth tin 5% mix is one that used to be used in fire
sprinklers [ the overhead type] it had to melt at certain temps 165 185 200 etc
straight bismuth has a lot higher melting temp it is also good for heart-burn and
upset stoumach

[floodgate]

Russ in WY:

I googled up Ney Metals/Alloy DM and got this:


Ney Smelting & Refining Co., Inc.

METALS - WHITE METAL ALLOYS - SOLDERS - FLUXES

================================================== =================

269 FREEMAN STREET - BROOKLYN, NY 11222-1295

TEL: (718)389-4900 FAX: (718) 349-2313

Manufacturing : NEW YORK CITY USA

neymetals@erols.com

"D" SERIES

PEWTER, SPIN CAST, RUBBER MOLD ALLOYS


NEY WHITE CASTING ALLOYS (TIN BASE)

After over a quarter of a century of service to the jewelry and novelty manufacturers, we have developed a complete series of alloys for each situation encountered.

The "D" series alloys are a broad range of alloys which can be produced with various amounts of Antimony and Lead (small amounts of cadmium are available if requested).

The most diversified alloy in this series is our "DM" material for the Jewelry trade and the "DB" alloy for the Novelty and Figurine trade.

Our " DM " (89 metal) and "DB" (92 metal) alloys fall within the ranges shown below.

DENSITY: .25 - .28 lbs./cu.in. @ 68 F

ELONGATION: 40% to 50%

LIQUIDUS TEMPERATURE: 398 F

SOLIDUS TEMPERATURE: 364 F + - 5F

CASTING TEMPERATURE: 450 F - 575 F.

BRINELL HARDNESS: 20

SHEAR STRENGTH: 6,500 psi.

IZOD IMPACT VALUE: 20 ft.-lbs.

SOLDERABILITY: Excellent! Contact our sales department for information on our solder alloys.

FINISHES: Buffed, tumbled, lacquered and electroplated.

PLEASE NOTE: IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO AVOID CONTAMINATION OF THESE ALLOYS.

For recommendations or SPECIAL ALLOY COMPOSITIONS, please call us at (718) 389-4900.

SPECIFY

NEY ENVIRONMENTALLY CORRECT" LEAD FREE ALLOYS, METALS & PRODUCTS

(Sorry! We do not fabricate or cast finished items, however, we sell worldwide and one of our customers may just be able to help! Call us for more info.)

Please email us for any of your nonferrous needs!

<Sales@NeyMetals.com>

================================================== =============================

Looks like a non-toxic mix, but no indication of specific metal constituents or proportions. I suggest youcontact them directly and ask for the MSDS - and especially ask if they can tell you whether your mix has any cadmium; apparently they sell it with and without Cd.

floodgate

[Russ in WY]

Tks FG , really appreciate your help. I will give them a call & see what I can get on the MSDS & if I have Cad in the stuff I have. Russ.

[JSnover]

Windrider919, Do you remember how soft the DU ballast was? This stuff cuts like butter.
NEY said "we're not sure, we supply alloys based on the customer specs but we don't necessarily know what they use it for."
Boeing said "it's probably lead but we'd need more information or a sample. DU was used for a while but lead is a lot cheaper and the DoD would rather use DU for projectiles."
Another ballast metal supplier says it may be a tungsten alloy but I can't imagine something like that being this soft, even if was 50-50 W::Pb.

[JSnover]

Turns out this stuff is lead/antimony, about 95::5

Now all I need is a cigarette and a nap ;)

[windrider919]

When we used Du on aircraft it was softer then pure lead. Care had to be used because it would 'mush' out from under the bolt or screw and not pass inspection. When we used a lead weight you could tighten the fastener slightly tighter.

Reading the previous posts you do not have DU. Someone asked about casting it, another mechanic took some damaged weights and did some casting "kitchen table" style and became very ill from the fumes. It produces more than regular lead alloys and has to have better ventilation.