Will water dropping improve accuracy?

[crabo]

Has anyone seen an improvement in revolver accuracy when loading waterdropped wws? I am going to try it so I will know for sure. Do I need to size them within a day or so? (seems like I read that somewhere)

Crabo

[IcerUSA]

The talk on here has it both ways depending on the weapon and boolit, try it and let us know. With WDWW's usually within 24 to 36 hours they should be at least sized and still let the age for about a week or so to get to max hardness .

Keith

[Salmon-boy]

Ok, from my understanding, as far as I can tell you're dependent on 2 things at this point. REALISTICALLY, there are too many variables for anyone to say "Mine increased, so yours should too." As Buckshot says, try it and let us know.

1. Load accuracy. Is the load you're currently using the most accurate for the boolit?
2. Lead Alloy. If water dropping DOES increase your boolit hardness, GENERALLY, you can drive it faster. Faster speeds, in theory, mean flatter trajectories. Point of Aim may change as well. Try upping the loads and testing.

As for sizing, size immediatly and let stand for a couple days/weeks prior to testing hardness.

[Bret4207]

You'll never know until you try it in YOUR gun. Each gun is a law unto itself. THAT is the only FACT I've found in nearly 40 years of shooting.

[waksupi]

Size them within a day, and I like to do it even sooner than that. If they get too hard, they are difficult to get sized.

[Boomer Mikey]

I gave up water quenching because the added variables complicating things. If you're water droping from the mold, bullet hardness will vary depending on how long it takes you to get the boolits from the mold into water and when you use them.

The best procedure for water quenched boolit consistency is to cast, air cool, cull, size, oven heat, water quench, lube just before you use them and keep records... with a hardness tester. This way you know what you're working with. Using this method will allow you to see if it truly makes a difference because you can shoot some untreated and some oven heat/water quenched boolits from the same batch side by side at the same range session.

Water quenched boolits can improve accuracy, especially in bores that have problems with constrictions and surface finish as harder, oversize boolits resist deformation better (spring back).

I find life much simpler using air cooled bullets... adjusting alloy to achieve hardness desired. For hard bullets I cast with pure linotype, for average boolits in the BHN 14-15 range I add linotype to wheel weights (90% of my boolits), and for softer boolits in the BHN 10-12 area I add pure lead to wheel weights and a little tin.

Bore condition and bullet fit IMO are more important than hardness unless ultimate velocity is your goal and to get ultimate velocity, good bullet fit and bore condition is a necessity.

Read Veral Smith or Marshall Stanton’s book to save yourself a lot of time and money.

Boomer :Fire:

[38 Super Auto]

Size them within a day, and I like to do it even sooner than that. If they get too hard, they are difficult to get sized.

My experience is similar. I notice a big difference sizing them within a few days. After a week or so, my hard alloy .356 125RN can be quite a burden to size.

I water drop for convenience. I get fewer deformed bullets. It's part of my process, so I water drop everything, including my HG 527s cast from 20 to 1.

[454PB]

No amount of hardness will cure other problems like proper diameter and lube.

[44man]

Very, very true. I do water drop for convenience but don't pay much attention to hardness differences. I think it is overblown. I alloy for the use of the boolit and like a little harder for hunting. For other stuff like pop cans at 100 yd's I mix 50-50 WW's and pure and I sure can not see any difference in group size or POI between them and the WW's I add antimony and tin to. I shoot the same loads with both alloys too.
When I can average 7/16" to 1" groups at 50 yd's and 2" to under 1" at 100 yd's using my 45-70 BFR (my .475 BFR does almost as good but has a shorter barrel and MORE recoil.) with every alloy I put in the gun, do you think I am going to use a hardness tester? Sort by hardness??? Holy smokes, what a waste of time!
I have cast, water dropped, sized, loaded and shot on the same day and got the same results on the target that I do if I wait several months before loading.
I don't shoot BR or cast in rifles but I can say my revolvers just don't know the difference. Too many other factors are more important.
I don't weigh boolits either, waste of time too. I depend on my casting instead. If your boolits are good and accuracy is not there, look elsewhere.
I am unhappy if my 50 yd groups go over an inch but can only blame myself most of the time. And I don't sweat ANY of the small stuff! :mrgreen: Your brass, technique, loads, boolit fit and dies will effect groups more then the boolit hardness. Then the nut behind the trigger has to be tight. :Fire:
If you are not getting the accuracy you want, don't expect a harder boolit to solve it.

[cbrick]

Boomer Mikey pretty well nailed it. I did an extensive BHN test with top end loads for long range revolver that took over a year and a half and took many dozens of 5 shot groups. I used a Burris 12X on an FA 9" 357 Mag from the bench. All groups were fired at 150 meters, all boolits were from the same pot of alloy, all brass was virgin Winchester from the same lot# (no brass was fired a second time), all primers were from the same lot#. Alloy BHN was changed by convection oven HT and were between 11 BHN and 30 BHN. All of the groups with a given BHN were repeated several times to assure the results were consistent and repeatable.

The load was tested and known accurate before the test began. RCBS 180 gr silhouette @ 192 gr., WW+ 3% tin at 1550 fps. The lube was LBT Blue. This is a top end load for the FA ONLY. The groups were fired with temperature changes from high 40's to over 100 degrees in a year and a half. High temp didn't seem to have an effect on groups but did increase velocity a little, 20-25 fps.

There was no leading with any of the BHN's tested but the boolits fit the throats perfectly and the groove diameter is a perfect match with the throats.

Quite an extent to go to but long range revolver is my thing and it took going to this extent to learn what I wanted/needed to learn. Yes, BHN will affect groups, velocity and SD but it takes 150 meters and longer with a load/revolver of known accuracy and many, many groups to tell the difference. At say 50 yards I may have been able to pick out the worse of the groups but not much else.

With THIS load and fired in THIS revolver groups shrank and velocity increased (a little) from 11 BHN and with each increase in hardness up to 18 BHN. With every increase past 18 BHN cost velocity and groups opened up. This revolver likes this load with 18 BHN boolits and is where it shoots its best.

Some of the things learned from all this testing, minor variation in BHN of say 17-18 or 15-16 or 20-21 made no detectable or practical difference in that BHN's groups even at 150 meters. Varying the BHN (say 15-22) WITHIN THE SAME 5 SHOT GROUP had a huge effect on groups. Yes, from an accuracy/velocity point there is such a thing as TOO hard. Boolit fit is critical, again, no leading with any BHN.

Bottom line is that for the vast majority of revolver shooting and the majority of revolver shooters (2-4 inch groups at 50 yards) quenching or HT will only help if your shooting higher pressure loads than your alloy will withstand, but it is very easy to get carried away and over do it. If you’re happy with your revolver groups and you’re not getting any leading at your velocity/pressure your bullet fit is probably good regardless of BHN. A BHN change may or may not help with accuracy but then that is what testing is for. If your using a reasonable alloy for the cartridge and you are getting leading don't blame the alloy first, take a serious look at bullet fit in the throats FIRST, throat and groove diameter match second.

That said, I am a big fan of HT boolits BUT it must be used in its place and not get carried away. Too hard can in itself cause leading.

If your like me and have a strong desire to "know why" and "what if" and really want to pick the fly sh*t out of the pepper barrel . . . Let the testing begin.

All of this testing was specifically for the ongoing education of Rick, testing cast boolits in revolvers . . . Life is good :drinks:

Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

im with mikey. I dont ever water drop. Maybe someday when the lineotype all drys up ill be forced to but until then ill do it by alloying.
I gave up water quenching because the added variables complicating things. If you're water droping from the mold, bullet hardness will vary depending on how long it takes you to get the boolits from the mold into water and when you use them.

The best procedure for water quenched boolit consistency is to cast, air cool, cull, size, oven heat, water quench, lube just before you use them and keep records... with a hardness tester. This way you know what you're working with. Using this method will allow you to see if it truly makes a difference because you can shoot some untreated and some oven heat/water quenched boolits from the same batch side by side at the same range session.

Water quenched boolits can improve accuracy, especially in bores that have problems with constrictions and surface finish as harder, oversize boolits resist deformation better (spring back).

I find life much simpler using air cooled bullets... adjusting alloy to achieve hardness desired. For hard bullets I cast with pure linotype, for average boolits in the BHN 14-15 range I add linotype to wheel weights (90% of my boolits), and for softer boolits in the BHN 10-12 area I add pure lead to wheel weights and a little tin.

Bore condition and bullet fit IMO are more important than hardness unless ultimate velocity is your goal and to get ultimate velocity, good bullet fit and bore condition is a necessity.

Read Veral Smith or Marshall Stanton’s book to save yourself a lot of time and money.

Boomer :Fire:

[44man]

Exactly, it takes more work and shooting then it is worth to find the specific hardness a gun likes best. I say the short time changes between water dropped boolits don't mean a thing. Cbrick said it best that a few points of Brinnel will not effect groups.
My harder alloy is used for long range and groups and the softest I use is water dropped 50-50 that also comes out pretty hard. Anything from 50-50 to WW metal is used to 100 yd's or so for fun because it is cheaper. I don't mix boolits from each batch, hard or softer alloys. Each alloy is kept separate and has it's own use. All are water dropped and the difference in hardness is actually very small.
Cbrick has different needs then I do so I am not as fussy since I quit IHMSA. For anyone that never shoots beyond 50 yd's, you will never find any difference.
I bet a lot of guys here laugh at the gun rags when they test the big bores at 20 yd's and get worse results then we get at 100 or Cbrick's at 150 meters! :mrgreen:
Hey, that would be a good poll, how many of us shoot revolvers to 100 yd's or beyond for most of their shooting?
How many shoot 50 and how many stay at 25? How many shoot closer?
Might have to start a new post.

[Boomer Mikey]

Well guys, I wasn't referring to revolver loads specifically and I shot thousands of boolits at the 150 meter turkeys and 200 meter rams from wheel guns and production class TC's during the 80's and 90's with 357's, 357 SuperMags, 41 Mags, and 44 Mags. Many 30 Herrett, 708, 30 Merrill, 7BR, 25TCU, 6TCU and 7TCU's went downrange in my production and unlimited guns too. I was a state and regional cast bullet revolver, production, and standing champion on several occasions (never did well in unlimited class).

I use a hardness tester to verify batches of boolits are in a specific range and I agree that a difference of 1, 2, or even 3 BHN isn't a big deal but if I water quenched a batch to BHN 24 and when I went to use them two years later and they're at BHN 15 their POI and load accuracy may not be the same.

I also agree that at 100 yards (or meters) and less that the differences are insignificant in the real world... yes you can see a difference on paper but on the line is another story.

If you water quench from the mold and it works for you please continue to do so. As for me, I can pull a box of boolits from the shelf that were cast 5 years ago and have complete confidence that my sight settings are going to be as good today as they were then because my boolits are still going to be BHN 14-15, BHN 10-12, or BHN 22-24 depending on the alloy used.

I continue to use LBT Blue, Lyman 429640, RCBS 35-200-FN & RCBS-35-180-SIL today as some of my best performing lubes & boolits for the last 28 years.

Great feedback, it's interesting to read your opinions and results too.

Boomer :Fire:

[Bret4207]

Guys, good info and results. I'm in the water quench from the mould class. I haven't seen a lot of difference but I see my testing is elementary compared to some of you. Maybe when the kids get older I'll have more time.

I remember just a few years back when the group here finally accepted that it was boolit fit that gave the surest improvements in cast accuracy. It was quite a mess for a while with the hardness/softness/lube/design/cartridge/size/alloy groups fighting back and forth. We've come a long way since then. Now we debate RPM thresholds/non-thresholds, HT vs WQ, things like that. My hats off to you guys!

[44man]

Boomer, that is why I change and make my own alloys for each use. But I still water drop for 2 reasons. I don't have to fool with dropping them on towels and keeping them apart. I don't have much room on my bench between the drill press and grinder. Then a third reason, I am lazy. :mrgreen:
Then most of my boolits are for deer now.
I miss IHMSA! I shoot BPCR now and even it is going out of sight in price. I might have to quit that too. Gas prices make it even worse. We are being priced out of those things we love. :neutral:

[Boomer Mikey]

Well guys, I can't argue with your success; indeed, I applaud it. Anything you do that gives you confidence in your loads improves accuracy.

44man, your loads work well... keep doin' what you do!

cbrick, Never had the pleasure of using a Freedom Arms wheel gun, you lucky dog you!

IMO 90% of guys with accuracy problems are using boolits too small in diameter, so many of today’s guns have oversize bores, chambers and long throats that the old rule of sizing to 0.001"- 0.002" over groove diameter isn't cast in stone anymore.

I don't shoot monthly matches now as they're 420 miles away and I'm too fat, lazy, and lame to get into the Creedmoor position; but, we usually manage to get to at least one event a year to hangout with our silhouette friends of 30 years or so. I get a chance to fool around with my favorite lever guns and shoot some standing and field pistol over a three or four day weekend.

Yes, I've become lazy too; I'll go out on a limb a little to say that nowadays I just load the largest BHN 14-15 boolit I can chamber for 90% of what I do out to 200 meters with LBT Blue in the grease grooves, run them around 1200-1300 fps in the wheel guns and 1400-1500 fps in the TC's and Merrill's. I'm too chicken to shoot cast in the Hornet and too lazy to work up cast loads for the bottleneck guns I don't shoot anymore anyway. I'm stuck on shooting 35 cal and up... mostly 375, 44, and 45’s in straight wall cartridges and enjoying every minute of it. :-D:-D:-D

I don't win any matches, but I'm having a good time. :lovebooli

Thanks Guys,

Boomer :Fire:

[bobthenailer]

ive been useing water dropped wheel weights for at least 20 years after reading about it in LBT s first book . ive always worked up my loads with wd/ww and have allways gotten outstanding accuracy out of all of my guns . just for the record 1/2 ww mixed with 1/2 lead will water drop to around 15 bhn . i allways size my bullets after im done casting , cast for around a hour and lube for about a hour, for me a 2 cavity mould usually produces about 500 per hr, a 4 cavity 800 pr hr , 8 cavity 1400 pr hr